Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hexsixsic6 Apr 15, 2009 0:14:15	I played in a game a few months ago where this guy played a Thri-Kreen that used multi-weapon fighting with monkey grip and brutal throw (I think) and a few other feats to throw 4 longswords/round. Can someone help me figure out how he did this, or a viable way of accomplishing something similar.
#2 cloer Apr 15, 2009 0:18:16	that sounds so freeking cool, sorry i cant help but this one should be interesting :D
#3 hexsixsic6 Apr 15, 2009 0:28:16	Yeah it was amazing, he had gloves of storing and heyward's handy haversack too, with back up swords in them, some of them enchanted.
#4 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 0:49:29	Four dip bloodstorm blade. I feel like I'm sucking the magic out of the world by saying that, but let me suggest that throw anything means..... anything. And that you should take that as literally as you possibly can. My personal tossing predilections are well-documented elsewhere.
#5 keithio Apr 15, 2009 0:55:08	Erm, isn't the answer to this the Bloodstorm Blade PRC from Tome of Battle? It gives free returning, bonus feats, use STR for throws, power attack... ...And at 4th level you can make full attacks with a thrown weapon. So with 4 swords and multiweapon fighting, you get 13 attacks. Haste makes that 14, and if you want to be silly use raging mongoose for 18. If you're really greedy, throw arrows with the splitting property, for 36 arrows.
#6 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 1:09:43	{scrub}
#7 hexsixsic6 Apr 15, 2009 1:15:19	Erm, isn't the answer to this the Bloodstorm Blade PRC from Tome of Battle? That is a cool trick but personally I don't like Tome of Battle. If I wanted to play 4e I would. Besides I would like to stay as close to the original as possible.
#8 Senevri Apr 15, 2009 1:25:17	Pet peeve. ToB, despite being a testbed for 4e, is almost nothing like it. In fact, I find ToB to be much more entertaining in many ways, mainly due to it's lack of at-will stuff, which adds more variety to the game. Also, Bloodstorm Blade as a class has very little to do with initiators. In fact, I'm not sure if it even progresses your IL. The class does just this: Allows throwing your weapon, while still keeping it as a melee attack. Do not assume based on hearsay.
#9 dr_rocktopus Apr 15, 2009 1:27:19	I second this. ToB is not 4e. If it was, I would be playing 4e exclusively. I'm not. Draw your conclusions from this.
#10 Wyvernhand Apr 15, 2009 1:39:08	Care what you say there. Lots of ToB fans around here. And the odds of you producing something like what he did that is effective without BSB are pretty bad. Sure, you could DO it, but the odds of actually hitting something more than 10' away are gonna be sooooo low, even after sinking a ton of feats into it. To hit chances and damage are gonna be seriously terrible without some drastic caviats. Plus, I don't think there is an Oversided Multiweapon Fighting feat...that means you are looking at at least a -4 on everything. Tack on the penalties for Brutal Throw, range increments, Monkey Grip (for Large longswords), and the loss of 2 BAB from your LA, and you are looking at attacks in the +0 to +1 range even at ECL10 or so. And the shear number of feats!!! Multiweapon Fighting Greater Multiweapon Fighting Improved Multiweapon Fighting Throw Anything Power Attack Brutal Throw Monkey Grip (?) dunno why he had that one... Quickdraw plus probably: Point Blank Shot Far Shot Rapid Shot So...pretty much, including your TK's LA and HD, you are pretty much looking at straight fighter levels just to afford those feats. That leaves you without any meaningful class features or abilities while giving you a neat looking, albeit mechanically terrible ability. Oh, and gear...Unless you have a friendly caster to Chain Greater Magic Weapon on your numerous swords, you won't have much for gear and any DR will wreck you. That would be so bad...
#11 hexsixsic6 Apr 15, 2009 2:04:08	Ok well, I wasn't harshing on ToB (or 4e) for that matter, it just seem DnD to me. But that is the great thing about the game, we can all use wha we like and discard the rest. Wyvernhand I gat your point but the character I saw was quite effective, but then again maybe the DM didn't know what he was doing. Either way thanks.
#12 hexsixsic6 Apr 15, 2009 2:04:59	Ok well, I wasn't harshing on ToB (or 4e) for that matter, it just doesn't seem DnD to me. But that is the great thing about the game, we can all use wha we like and discard the rest. Wyvernhand I gat your point but the character I saw was quite effective, but then again maybe the DM didn't know what he was doing. Either way thanks.
#13 hexsixsic6 Apr 15, 2009 2:08:32	whatever
#14 obtusehobbit Apr 15, 2009 10:44:12	It can be done with out tome of battle though it is difficult: Here is what I came up with with out any Tome of Battle the first throws Bastard Sword instead of Longswords, the second one throws hammers. Both are strength based throwers. here Race: Tri-kreen (La buy off) Stats: Str 20 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Chr 4 Build Progression lvl Class Feats 1) Ranger 1: Point Blank Shot 2) Fighter 1: EWP (Bastard Sword), 3) Fighter 2: Brutal Throw, Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), 4) Ranger 2: Rapid Shot 5) Ranger 3: Endurance 6) Ranger 4: Precise Shot, Power Attack ACF: Champion of the Wild 7) Exotic Weapon Master 1: 8) Master Thrower 1: Quick Draw 9) Master Thrower 2: Power Throw 10) Master Thrower 3: 11) Master Thrower 4: 12) Master Thrower 5: Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Critical (Bastard Sword) 13) Exotic Weapon Master 2: 14) Warmind 1: 15) Warmind 2: Leap Attack 16) Warmind 3: 17) Warmind 4: 18) Warmind 5: Pracitsed Manifester The concept here is to throw Bastard Swords intead of longswords. The idea is that by using the throw exotic weapon trick from Exotic Weapons Master we turn the bastard sword into a thrown weapon then we use Master Thrower to turn your ranged attacks into touch attacks. Using Power Throw and Power Attacking with with your thrown bastard swords you can generate good damage at range. The build should also pick up the Uncanny blow trick from Exotic Weapon Master combined with Leap attack and Psionic Lion's Charge/Expansion from Warmind you are a resonable effective in Melee as well. Also don't forget the other useful powers/ablilities you gain from warmind. As far as the other Thrown Weapon tricks take what ever you want. Currently the build is throwing 8 bastard swords a round. Now this is something I just threw together so there may be better option, but this is what I came up with
#15 Wyvernhand Apr 15, 2009 11:17:17	Wyvernhand I gat your point but the character I saw was quite effective, but then again maybe the DM didn't know what he was doing. Either way thanks. Its amazing what a person can accomplish by cheating...deliberately or inadvertantly.
#16 keithio Apr 15, 2009 13:01:57	(Builds) Isn't thri-keen 2HD & 2LA? So I think you can only get 18 class levels in there. We might just be looking at different versions of the critter, or something. As far as Bloodstorm Blade and IL advancement goes... I believe all PRCs in ToB advance IL 1 per level. And don't be hatin' on ToB when it's letting you do exactly what you want and is the most fun and balanced book in 3.5.
#17 Wyvernhand Apr 15, 2009 13:16:57	And don't be hatin' on ToB when it's letting you do exactly what you want and is the most fun and balanced book in 3.5. [fine print] Offer excludes liberal rulings of White Raven Tactics, Iron Heat Surge, and Divine Impetus. Offer not valid in all states. Rules subject to change, see DM for details. Side affects may include nausia, dizziness, giddiness, and an urge to break free from the shackles of full attacking. [/fine print]
#18 mister_crowley Apr 15, 2009 13:21:50	That is a cool trick but personally I don't like Tome of Battle. If I wanted to play 4e I would. Besides I would like to stay as close to the original as possible. +1 :D
#19 keithio Apr 15, 2009 13:27:21	[fine print] Offer excludes liberal rulings of White Raven Tactics, Iron Heat Surge, and Divine Impetus. Offer not valid in all states. Rules subject to change, see DM for details. Side affects may include nausia, dizziness, giddiness, and an urge to break free from the shackles of full attacking. [/fine print] To me balance isn't about the exceptions, the really broken things. It's about bringing typical characters in a typical game on-par with each other. And as far as exceptions go, those ones really aren't all that bad.
#20 Wyvernhand Apr 15, 2009 13:31:27	No, provided you follow the sages ruling on Divine Impetus (once per round) and WRT (can't use it on yourself, Spank the Monkey style), and a healthy dose of common sense with IHS (cause as worded, it doesn't work on 9/10 things it should, and works on tons of things it shouldn't). Other than that and the 1d2 Crusader, everything else is pretty well thought out and balanced. Some falls above the curve, some falls below the curve, but it all fits within the standard deviation.
#21 obtusehobbit Apr 15, 2009 15:01:37	@Kethios Sorry my mistake Adjusted now. I don't usually use monsterous races with Racial hit die.
#22 mltryman Apr 15, 2009 17:59:58	Im a little confused on how people are getting 3the following: "..And at 4th level you can make full attacks with a thrown weapon. So with 4 swords and multiweapon fighting, you get 13 attacks. Haste makes that 14, and if you want to be silly use raging mongoose for 18....If you're really greedy, throw arrows with the splitting property, for 36 arrows." Could someone explain how multiweapon fighting works and how so many attacks are being obtained with the 4 arms of a thri-kreen + bloodstorm blade's abilities??? I know you get 1 attack with each of the "off-hands" thus netting 3 attacks + the primary hand. Lets assume the primary hands gets 2 attacks, thats still only 5 attacks. Yep i'm definately confused!
#23 keithio Apr 15, 2009 18:07:09	Im a little confused on how people are getting 3the following: "..And at 4th level you can make full attacks with a thrown weapon. So with 4 swords and multiweapon fighting, you get 13 attacks. Haste makes that 14, and if you want to be silly use raging mongoose for 18....If you're really greedy, throw arrows with the splitting property, for 36 arrows." Could someone explain how multiweapon fighting works and how so many attacks are being obtained with the 4 arms of a thri-kreen + bloodstorm blade's abilities??? I know you get 1 attack with each of the "off-hands" thus netting 3 attacks + the primary hand. Lets assume the primary hands gets 2 attacks, thats still only 5 attacks. Yep i'm definately confused! All bloodstorm blade does is make the weapons return to you fast enough to full attack as if they were standing right next to you. With 16 BAB and 1 weapon, your typical fighter schmuck can attack 4 times (+16/+11/+6/+1) in a full attack. He can also wield another weapon, to get one more attack from it, or a 2nd extra attack if he has improved two weapon fighting or a third extra attack is he has greater two weapon fighting. So your typical TWF fighter gets 7 attacks. Multiweapon fighting works just like two weapon fighting, but give an extra attack for each limb. Improved multi weapon fighting gives the off hands a 2nd attack, and greater multiweapon fighting gives them a 3rd attack. It's just like two weapon fighting, only with multiple off hands.