Greetings. I'm playing a 2nd level human cleric of Kelemvor in a FR campaign setting (3.5). One of our players is a gnome illusionist playing this build
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
When he explained to me what he was losing, I thought it was a fair trade, then I did more research into the build and came upon the link above. Considering that the entire group I play with is clueless when it comes to books outiside core, I'm tempted to say that it's a broken build within the context of our group. As such, I'm looking for some build for a cleric of Kelemvor to stand up to this gnome should he get out of hand (which I'm guessing he will in a few levels).
This is my build so far (aiming for Doomguide, but still at an early stage, being 2nd level and all)
Str. 15
Dex. 12
Con. 16
Int. 9
Wis. 16
Cha. 15
Race: human
Domains: Repose and Law
Feats: Combat Casting, Extra Turning, EWP (bastard sword) - this last one was a freebie from my DM, I was aiming to get it by 3rd level, so it came by as an unexpcted bonus.
Again, I'm aiming for the Doomguide PrC described in the FRCS, but i'm willing to change some feats and stuff as required to make a build that can keep this gnome in check.
Any and all feedback is much appreciated.
Cloistered Cleric-> Contemplative-1 -> anything else that will get you domains THEN into Ordained Champion, swapping out your extra domains for feats. Also Divine Metamagic (a feat) and Persist (a feat) will let you use turn attempts to make your best combat buffs last 24 hours.
But honestly, the best way to deal with this is out of game. Give the player a chance to be responsible. If he can't, talk with both him and the DM about it. If he doesn't want to give up his build, ask him to take a crafting feat or two so he can power up everyone else and power himself down a bit (just make sure that if he makes someone something, they foot the gp cost.)
When you say 'stand up to him', do you mean be his equal in power, or take him down if he gets out of hand?
If the latter, just work one of the various ways of getting Mettle into your build. That on its own will destroy a shadowcraft mage.
You get a will save vs his shadow illusions. Even if on a passed save you still take 100% damage, Mettle means that you take Zero. Yep, Zero. So a Cleric with Mettle, with their Will save pumped up, is almost completely immune to the Shadowcraft Gnome's schtick. 
I'm imagining he's wanting to just continue to be a significant and important member of the party after a powergamer starts taking control.
One possibility is to go the divine metamagic persist build (as recommended already). Clerics who do this become front line terrors, which is going to have you filling a significantly different role in the party than the illusionist.
If you want to be able to remain signficant as a caster in battle - it's a bit harder, you are after all a Cleric, which is normally not as suited for combat casting as a Wizard.
However, you could always go with Malconvoker (complete scoundrel), the Malconvoker is a dedicated summoner, and will chuckle with amusement at the summoned creature that the shadowcrafter can create. I've got a handbook if you are interested...(there are some very powerful Cleric options in the responses, again, making use of DMM).
Cloistered Cleric-> Contemplative-1 -> anything else that will get you domains THEN into Ordained Champion, swapping out your extra domains for feats. Also Divine Metamagic (a feat) and Persist (a feat) will let you use turn attempts to make your best combat buffs last 24 hours.
But honestly, the best way to deal with this is out of game. Give the player a chance to be responsible. If he can't, talk with both him and the DM about it. If he doesn't want to give up his build, ask him to take a crafting feat or two so he can power up everyone else and power himself down a bit (just make sure that if he makes someone something, they foot the gp cost.)
I read on the Contemplative from CDiv. The extra Domain is always nice, as well as Divine Metamagic (especially if I get into the Doomguide PrC , which gives me a lot of Extra Turning Feats.) Persist, however, I was unable to locate. I have played a Cloistered cleric before, from Unearthed Arcana, if I believe. Let's just hope my DM allows me to rechange those 2d8 levels into 2d6 and rearrange skills.
Where is Ordained Champion from? Is it a PrC? I hadn't heard of it before.
It is in Complete Champion. You may need to re-fluff it. Our group does son often and it works just fine. and yes, it is a PrC. Ideely, you get as many domains as you can befor going into OC, as at its first level it allows you to swap out domain powers for fighter feats. Then you DMM Persist something like Rightious Might and go to town. Just be aware that you'll make the groupd fighter cry every night into his pillow.
Persist (Persistant Spell) is in complete Arcane, under the meta magics.
Thank you all for the great suggestions. I began looking into some of my books and came up with the following build:
Cloistered Cleric + Speaker of the Sovereign (Eberron PrC, but can be translated into FR)
As for Feats, start with Extra Turning and Divine Metamagic (Empower, maybe?). I just read Persist in Complete Arcane... wow. That combo with DMM is a killer.
As for Mettle, Pious Templar from Complete Divine gives me that ability at first level, however entry into that PrC requires me to worship one deity only, making the above (and more important PrC in my build, moot)
Ways to get Mettle (from the "Lists of Stuff" thread):
Mettle
Hexblade 3
Pious Templar 1, ecl 6, Complete divine
Vigilante 9, ecl 14, Complete Adventurer
Witch Slayer 2, ecl 7, Tome of Magic
Sohei
Crusader 13, Tome of Battle
Deneith Warden 5, ecl 9, Eberron: Dragonmarked
Master Specialist (abjuration) 7, ecl 10, Complete Mage - works for all saves, see text
Argent Fist 8, ecl 13, Faiths of Eberron
Hellreaver 4, ecl 9, Fiendish Codex II
Kinslayer 1, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark
Honorable Mention
Iron Mind 5, ecl 10, Races of Stone - "mettle of will" affects will saves only
Goliath Rogue 2 racial substitution level, ecl 3, Races of Stone - "mettle of mountains" affects Fort saves only, improves if later gain
Yeah, divine characters generally oppose Shadowcraft Mages only with the aid of metamagic. I'd never noticed the Mettle trick though. It seems a bit difficult to acquire by non Pious Templar means, though there is a feat in Power of Faerun called Heretic of the Faith that might work for stretching the requirements a bit. It's a matter of burning a feat to get DM fiat. Think of it as a sacrifice.
Archivist is another way to achieve parity with a Shadowcrafter, if you use the various means of gaining turning, DMM, etc. Spelldancer (if it's allowed) presents an another way to get persistent magic up.
If for some reason Persistent Spell isn't doing it for you, note that the Hathran prestige class can let clerics get Circle Magic quite easily.
And finally (this is the dirty way), Ghostwise Halflings get telepathy and can thus qualify for Mindsight. If it's not thinking, you know it's an illusion. Undead can get Lifesense, so if it doesn't glow, it's an illusion.
A nice Dream Dwarf Ultimate Magus with Transdimensional Spell and a Ring of Wizardry, and the ability to become/remain ethereal, would make a very difficult foe for anyone, not just a Shadowcrafter.
Thank you for all the great responses. I managed to somehow convert the Sovereign Host into 9 FR deities for purose of this PrC. Let me know what you think:
1. Arawai = Chauntea
2. Aureon = Mystra
3. Balinor = Mielikki
4. Boldrei = Sune
5. Dol Arrah = Lathander
6. Dol Dorn = Tempus
7. Kol Korran = Waukeen
8. Ollandra = Tymora
9. Onatar = Kossuth
Thankfully my DM agreed on the build, since he believes it will not be unbalancing to the campaign. I personally don't think so, what with losing 2 caster levels, but that's basically it. I know I could take the Contemplative PrC, but I'm already a Cloistered Cleric, so 12 Domains is more than sufficient.
One Core rules approach that might work is to be sure to have scrolls of spell immunity and greater spell immunity handy. Both shadow evocation and shadow conjuration always allow SR checks, so you can use the spells against his favorite shadow spells and effectively render them harmless to you. Won't work against shades, sadly, since that's 9th level and greater spell immunity only goes up to 8th level spells or less.
One Core rules approach that might work is to be sure to have scrolls of spell immunity and greater spell immunity handy. Both shadow evocation and shadow conjuration always allow SR checks, so you can use the spells against his favorite shadow spells and effectively render them harmless to you. Won't work against shades, sadly, since that's 9th level and greater spell immunity only goes up to 8th level spells or less.
He's probably using Heightened Silent Image spells. I'd bet my head on it.
He's probably using Heightened Silent Image spells. I'd bet my head on it.
Agreed
Another fun thing on that thread though... the entire PrC and build is built around "Silent Image". *Technically*, unless it's been erratad elsewhere, Mind Blank makes you immune to all his spells, since no matter what he converts them into, it's still an Illusion, and thus a Mind Affecting spell.
Similarly, a single "Spell Immunity - Silent Image" will also shut him down.
He probably will. So far, his build prohibits him from taking wizard bonus feats at level 5 and 10. He does use Silent Image a lot (mostly to cast a brick wall between himself and an attacking foe). Another one he has is the ability to create a duplicate of himself as an inmediate action several times/day. Mind you, he's only level 3 so far, but i'm guessing his build will get better past 11th level.
Mind Blank makes you immune to all his spells, since no matter what he converts them into, it's still an Illusion, and thus a Mind Affecting spell.
That's not right at all. Most illusions are not mind affecting. You must be thinking of Enchantments. True Seeing normally "trumps" illusions, but in the case of a Shadowcraft Mage, it just reduces the damage as if you'd made the save, since they are partially real.
Similarly, a single "Spell Immunity - Silent Image" will also shut him down.
This would work a lot better. The problem would be that a Silent Image Heightened above 4th level would not be blocked by this, as was commented on earlier in the thread.
You don't really need to start worrying till he gets the 3rd level of Shadowcraft Mage. Until then, his illusions are just illusions. 
That is true. So far, he hasn't been doing much in terms of combat, other than casting Silent Image to delay attackers. He did mention that with this build, he would be able to cast a very real illusion of Miracle by 13th level, reason why I was getting conecrened (i'm the party's cleric, after all, that's my turf). Then again, Sovereign Speaker will give me such a wide list of domains and spells... yet still not a way to thwart this little guy. My PC has just reached level 3. These are my feats so far and the following ones for the next levels until 9th, please let me know if there is anything better out there. I'm a human cleric, so bear in mind that when doing the feat count.
Lv1: Extra Turning, Divine Metamagic (Empower)
Lv3: Divine Metamagic (Extend)
Lv6: Divine Metamagic (Persist)
Lvl9: Divine Metamagic (Maximize)
So far, I have 10 Turn attempts/day, thanks to my charisma and the Extra Turning Feat. My wisdom score is an 18, so I'm not too worried there. My main thing would like to be a Charisma booster, so I can apply more DMM feats to my spells.
Also, I was considering Persisting Divine Power later on. Alas, as a Cloistered Cleric, I'm limited to light armor and weapons. Would it be wise to take a single level of fighter to overlook that?
Thank you in advance
You have to take the Metamagic feat you're applying Divine Metamagic to. You can't just take Divine Metamagic (Empower). You have to take Empower first. This was clarified in an errata. DMM is broken enough without that kind of abuse...
I had no idea there was an errata on the use of DMM. It would make sense, since it can get broken. Could you please link me to the site that says so? That will certainly slow down my progression threefold, but as long as it's legal, I'm willing to do it.
I had no idea there was an errata on the use of DMM. It would make sense, since it can get broken. Could you please link me to the site that says so? That will certainly slow down my progression threefold, but as long as it's legal, I'm willing to do it.
I'll be damned if I know where to find it now. They've freakin' buried all the 3.5 stuff under a flabalanche of 4.0 propaganda on the main wizards.com/dnd site. Even the link to the 3.5 Errata page found on the FAQ page doesn't work.
So I guess you can either take my word for it (I am 10,000% sure I'm right), or look for it yourself. Sorry. Blame WotC and 4th edition. 
I'll take your word for it. The PrC I'm taking should make it up for the slower feat progression. Do you think then that it would be wise to take a level of fighter anyway later on (say, after 9th level) to be able to rush into battle and help my fighter teammates?
You don't need a fighter level to do that. In fact, at later levels you'll be more able to do that without the fighter level. 
You don't need a fighter level to do that. In fact, at later levels you'll be more able to do that without the fighter level.
He's right, and actually the less fighter levels you have, the better off you'll be. More spell progression levels means higher levels of spells to persist. When you're doing Righteous Might, Divine Power and a handful of other goodies, you'll make those fighters cry into their pillows every night.
You're right. The reason why I mentioned the fighter level was to get access to better armor and weapon proficiencies (cloistered clerics get light armor and weapons only). However, I should have a handful of spells and magic items by the time I can cast those particular spells to make me nearly unhittable in melee.
You'll have plenty of ways to boost your ac, give yourself concealment or miss chance, spell resistance and stack your attack bonus through the roof. Sure you're dependant on stacking many Extra Turning feats along with Nightsticks, but you'll be a monster. Just be sure to boost your caster levels up a bit, or get some protection against Dispel Magic.
You're right. The reason why I mentioned the fighter level was to get access to better armor and weapon proficiencies (cloistered clerics get light armor and weapons only). However, I should have a handful of spells and magic items by the time I can cast those particular spells to make me nearly unhittable in melee.
A mithril breastplate is light armor, and it is one of the best as far as AC+max dex goes. Heavy darkwood shields have 0 armor check penalty. So you can use them with no problem.
The morning star is a good weapon, and it is simple. Two damage types, decent damage, and you can swing it with two hands if you want.
3.5 Errata page. www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/200...
Check the Complete Divine one for the DMM Errata.
Mind Blank makes you immune to all his spells, since no matter what he converts them into, it's still an Illusion, and thus a Mind Affecting spell.
That's not right at all. Most illusions are not mind affecting. You must be thinking of Enchantments. True Seeing normally "trumps" illusions, but in the case of a Shadowcraft Mage, it just reduces the damage as if you'd made the save, since they are partially real.
Ah, yes, my bad there. I read that illusions "affect the mind of the target" in the magic section, but they don't have the "Mind Affecting" descriptor
Similarly, a single "Spell Immunity - Silent Image" will also shut him down.
This would work a lot better. The problem would be that a Silent Image Heightened above 4th level would not be blocked by this, as was commented on earlier in the thread.
Might need to use a Greater one then, but it's still a very efficient deal.
Going a different direction: Build a cleric (with at least a medium-sized race, like human) with an okay Strength and the Protection or Magic domains. Take Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple at some point. When you hit 11th level, you get access to antimagic field; if the gnome gets uppity, just cast that, grab him, and choke the snot out of him. You might pick it up on a scroll a few levels early for emergency use.
If your DM allows Divine Metamagic, take a DM (Quicken Spell), so you can activate your field as a free action just before you swat him down. Good times!
Going a different direction: Build a cleric (with at least a medium-sized race, like human) with an okay Strength and the Protection or Magic domains. Take Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple at some point. When you hit 11th level, you get access to antimagic field; if the gnome gets uppity, just cast that, grab him, and choke the snot out of him. You might pick it up on a scroll a few levels early for emergency use.
If your DM allows Divine Metamagic, take a DM (Quicken Spell), so you can activate your field as a free action just before you swat him down. Good times!
Also a solid idea
For added grappleage, make your Cleric a Goliath so that you have Powerful Build for another +4 to the grapple check.
My strength is 14 right now (versus the gnome's 8), with Bull's Strength, Divine Power or Chasing Perfection, the idea of choking him by the neck is a very good one, especially since his AC is 13 right now (and won't go up by much). So yes, that does sound like a fun scenario to play.
Another qustion that recently arose at my game the other night was regarding the planar ally spells. I know some books like Complete Divine provide information on the gods and who their heralds and allies are for purposes of those spells, however, I couldn't find the same information on the FR deities. Since I will be serving 9 due to my PrC, i'd like to know if there is a document out there or a book that describes that information in detail, so as to have those written down on my character sheet for a case by case basis.
Thank you again in advance.
My strength is 14 right now (versus the gnome's 8), with Bull's Strength, Divine Power or Chasing Perfection, the idea of choking him by the neck is a very good one, especially since his AC is 13 right now (and won't go up by much). So yes, that does sound like a fun scenario to play.
You're also a size bigger than him, so there is another +4 advantage. And you're BAB should be higher. I don't think you'd need to be a goliath or anything to be mostly guaranteed to outgrapple him in an AMF.
Remember that your own magical buffs (such as bull's strength) won't apply in an antimagic field, either, so don't count on those.
Improved Grapple isn't a bad feat for you in any case; there are a number of spells (like righteous might and divine power) that turn you into a combat powerhouse, so you can make use of the feat versus a variety of enemies. Having the feat is useful not only for the +4 bonus to grapples, but also to avoid allowing the gnome a chance to make a lucky attack of opportunity roll to disrupt your grapple attempt!