Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 syrkres Jan 12, 2009 16:50:24	Ok, tasked with building my evil alter ego of my character. So it has some limitations as it has to be similar to my toon - basically a Kobold. Also I wanted to go with Dread Necro, though open to other options. Base: - Dragonwrought Kobold - GM approved the Necropolitan to turn into a Dracolich --- Note: I assume the d12 HD change apply to all class levels? - Target starting level 14 or 15 ish - Evil character - Books allowed --- any Complete [minus Eberron] --- any Races [mins Realms] --- Players I & II --- DMG --- Monster Man I & II --- Spell Comp --- Dread Necro approved exception source* --- Necropolitan approved exception source* Note: * Allowed two(2) exceptions to build (must be inclusive). so if don't use these allowed to swap out for other. Inclusive is if I took an Incarnum class from Magic, I only get spells/powers from above allowed books, not incarnum from spells Magic book. Not really sure what to do as the book limitation? Dread Necro 8/? Thanks.
#2 thisisclever Jan 12, 2009 18:46:49	Honestly, it looks like your all set. There's a dread necro handbook somewhere on the site, though, so feel free to look at that. Also: don't bother leveling up past eight. Esp. cause your playing as a necropolitan.
#3 jameswilliamogle Jan 13, 2009 8:03:45	I would remove the Necropolitan and add the Player's Guide to Faerun, if I were you, as it opens up two great PrCs - the Shadow Adept and the Incanatrix. The former really boosts your DCs, and the latter gives you a TON of metamagic abuses. Also, the standard build will be great at your starting level, even without necropolitan. It kind of depends though... If you want to be a party-player, use my advice. If you want to be a self-focused player, do what you have set up. Edit: OK, I'm confused... Can you pick 2 books as exceptions, or can you only pick 2 items from outside sources? Also, the DN handbook is in my sig.
#4 syrkres Jan 13, 2009 9:16:36	First, thanks both for your replies. JWO, yes I sort of thought of something similar to that on the way home last night. - It is two Exceptions, so a Feat and 1 PRC from any outside source, or 1 spell and 1 Feat from any outside source. It's not two outside sources. I was thinking rather than maybe going DN, what about a mage/cleric combo with Necropolitan? This would possibly free up one of my exceptions also give me d12s for HP. With possibly UR-Priest build, this would give me access to all priest and mage spells, thus all necro spells? Lots of spells along with different options. - Thoughts? As for being a party player, this is going to be a villian (my alter ego), though he will be part of others, he doesn't have to play nice with them.
#5 jameswilliamogle Jan 13, 2009 10:05:32	The mage / cleric combo will stink. Do 1 or the other. What are your goals for this character? You are pulling in a lot of different directions, it seems like. The Dread Necro / Incanatrix will be awesome at debuffing enemies for your pals. Is the "Dread Necromancer" exception what he's making you pick for your PrC option? Or could you pick this base class then another PrC? A Necromancer will also be pretty good at debuffing (not as good as the DN/Inc), and won't have "too focused" issues. A Cleric will be pretty darn good at creating undead, and have lots of melee options, and tons of other options... But you have to play a Cleric, and the party would rely on you for healing... A straight Dread Necromancer will be decent at debuffing (around a Necromaner's level), and have more stronger undead than the Cleric. So, you have to decide where to focus your energy. The one feat you'd want as a Dread Necro at 1st level is Tomb-Tainted Soul from LM, which makes you heal w/ inflict spells, if you start at 1st. If you can get Necropolitan instead and just wait for it at 3rd, that's even more powerful. Your Necro DN, even as a straight Dread Necromancer, will be fine. You could have upwards of 400 HD of very strong undead at the upper levels. The problem with it, well, is that its boring ("Go kill that one, go kill that one, go kill that one"). Really, you should give us campaign details, character creation guidelines, et al. Your limited book list has peaked my interest, though, so please give us more info. Also, what's the party makeup?
#6 syrkres Jan 13, 2009 11:01:28	SWO, Exceptions would be, again I get two, they could be two PrC, two feats, two anything. I only get two though. - Dread Necro (HoH) - Tainted Soul (what source) - Necropoliten (LM) - Incanatrix (FR) The campaign is currently around 14 level. will eventually go into Epic, though will this villian last till then (probably), we haven't killed any of our alter ego's off (of the party that is). We started playing a gehstalt campaign, but thought it too powerful with our size group, so an artifact exploded, and we redesigned our toons as regular toons, though an evil/alter ego was the opposite that came out of it as well. Campaign has low resources, not a lot of magic, though we do get some, we are half to quarter below wealth of normal (I believe). The evil guys(alter ego) is a group of evil trying to restore a Dead God, or at least his power, possibly to another being. So far they work mostly with Demons, so Undead would be a new twist. My character was a Spawn of a Shadow Dragon ( I applied the Shadow template - as one of my exceptions LA Buyback). In my background I was trapped in a timecrystal (which is why I am so old compared to rest of party) thus since then my master has died (turned into a draco-lich) and my alter ego followed him in his footsteps (which is why I was thinking Necropolitan). So no, don't have to go that way, but figured it would be a nice way.
#7 jameswilliamogle Jan 13, 2009 13:05:29	Its arbitrary, really, on any of those classes. Despite what Thisisclever wrote, doing all 20 levels of Dread Necromancer would be fine. The number of HD of critters you can animate w/ the Cha bonus is keyed off of your class level, so you get a substantial boost there. The advantage of playing a Wizard or a Cleric is that you have epic progression laid out for you already. Take a look at the Walker in the Waste from Sandstorm if you go w/ the Cleric, though, as its really easy to get into and is pretty awesome. The basic Cleric / Walker in the Waste using your limited books: Cleric 5 / WitW 10 / Cleric +5 and Cleric in Epic Planning and Sand domain 1 Dragonwrought 3 Heat Endurance (last prereq for WitW) 6 Persistent Spell 9 Divine Metamagic: Peristent Spell 12 Quicken Spell 15 Extra Turning 18 Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell You turn into a Dry Lich at L10 WitW, which is a better Lich (make sure you don't get the LA, though, first, and make sure your DM agrees, as getting a hefty LA as a capstone ability usually gets negated in the FAQ for other classes, Dragon Disciple in particular). You also get to do tons of undead creation along the way, as you have all the Cleric spell access as a straight Cleric.
#8 syrkres Jan 16, 2009 15:16:16	Ok, finally got a copy of the Hero's of Horror (thus Dread Necromancer). What about the following, which would give me 9th Arcane + 9th Divine? Dread Necro 8/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Thurg 8/ Now also in looking at the DN, I noticed that they have very limited spell lists, basically 2 spells per level (though they do get the Advance Learning which allows them to add spells to their spell list), but only a total of 4 spells I believe (if reading right). So what about the following build? Bard 1/DN 8/UR-P 2/ Sublime Chord 1/MT 8 That would still give me 9th level spells in both Arcane/Divine, but it would also give me much greater selection of spells in Arcane? I should still get my 4 additional spells from DN (though I believe I could only add them to 1-4 levels)? Also if I took Practiced Spell Caster would that not make up for the 3 lost caster levels? I can use my Divine castings for focusing on creating undead, and Arcane spells for Direct Damage? I will still be CHR/WIS focused, so not going MAD. And even with a nice GM ruling my spells from SC become my DN list, then I get to add my 4 spells to higher level slots? Thoughts?
#9 jameswilliamogle Jan 16, 2009 17:50:35	Dread Necromancers know EVERY spell on their spell list and spontaneously cast any of them as soon as they get spells / day for that level. Both the DN / Ur / MT and Bard / DN / Ur / SC / MT will be VERY powerful. Almost too much so. You're looking at two game-breaking builds. Unless the whole group is like that, I don't recomend either. That said, I prefer the former build over the latter, as its simpler and easier on the prereqs. Make sure to pick up Versatile Spellcaster (as you can then cross-cast spells of higher level on EITHER side). The latter build has more versatility as far as spell selection, however its going to be tough getting all the skills, and you also are going to have PLENTY to be doing during combat already (I don't think the added versatility as a PC is worth the extra bookkeeping as a player, personally). I'm unsure about your DM's ruling on the SC spells... could you clarify a bit?
#10 widow Jan 18, 2009 7:59:17	I am of two minds on this. If you are going Dread necromancer and you are already in the 13-14 range, I would be tempted to go straight Dread necro. Why not push for that lich template? I know the class can get a little dull going straight through, but the lich template is worth it. For your second exception, there are rituals in eberron that let you sac two points of con for +1 caster level on necromany spells. This can be repeated and is well worth it if going lich, but would require you to drop necropolatin exception and wait it out until level 20 to get the bonus. You can find the book source in the Dreadnecro handbook. Now if you are just looking for a caster, I would go with jameswilliamogle's suggestion of the Walker in the waste. Now this will be a little more tricky because it has spell and feat requirements exceeding your 2 exceptions, but they are all related and in the same book so maybe you can get it as a package deal. Cleric 3/Walker in the Waste 10 So you can start as a lich no problem. Take the Sand domain, that will give you 2/3 of your spells needed by level 3. Dessicate is a standard cleric spell at level 2 so that gives you your last required spell (3 total spells that appear on the sand and thirst domain). All that is left is a feat which you can take at 3rd level (assuming dragonwrought at first) and a non-evil alignment. There is still plenty of room for another clerical prestige class.
#11 phoenix00 Jan 18, 2009 11:01:56	where is this ritual in eberron that lets you sack two con for +1 caster to necromancy spells?
#12 widow Jan 18, 2009 17:07:40	Lol, I was hoping someone else would look it up. It is on page 23 in the Player's Guide to eberron. The ritual is called The Bloodtouched Rite. It does a number of useful things, including +1 caster levels on necromancy spells and effective rebuke undead levels. No where in the desciption does it say if you can do it more than once, but it has been mentioned on the boards before. Regardless if you going undead, even doing this once won't hurt.
#13 syrkres Jan 20, 2009 9:41:34	Ok, finally got a copy of the Hero's of Horror (thus Dread Necromancer). Bard 1/DN 8/UR-P 2/ Sublime Chord 1/MT 8 And even with a nice GM ruling my spells from SC become my DN list, then I get to add my 4 spells to higher level slots? Thoughts? I'm unsure about your DM's ruling on the SC spells... could you clarify a bit? Well, I was thinking that if I took Sublime chord it uses a different spell list than Dread Necro, where as Advance Learning to apply to the dread necro mancers spell list. So would one rule that you could apply that to Sublime Chord level known spells? Or that Advance Learning only applies to the spell list known up to when you switched over to Sublime Chord? Any ways I don't think it matters as I couldn't get Sublime Chord as to get into Ur-Priest I needed a base Fort save of +3, which I couldn't get with that progression. So I am going with the following: Dread Necromancer* 8/Earth Dreamer 2/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Thurge 8 Question: With Advance Learning, it states in the ability that I get it at certain levels, so do I need to continue in the class to continue to get that benefit? I.e. 4/8/12/16/20. If I exit at 8th level do I get the benefit at 12/16 and 20? or does it stop? Same would go for Lich Body increases which is gained at 2nd level? I say no, but in reading several net books and such it reads like they say I do, but maybe I'm just reading wrong.
#14 syrkres Jan 20, 2009 9:53:54	Another thought is if I take Craft Wonderous Item - do I make myself Spell Stitched? I have the Wisdom? I don't see a LA to them so is there a +LA?
#15 jameswilliamogle Jan 20, 2009 10:01:39	No LA on Spell Stiched. Go for it.
#16 syrkres Jan 23, 2009 12:15:50	Ok, so taking Leadership (GM may allow me to have Undead Leadership since basically all it is is adjusting the modifiers for leadership for undead). Either way I will have an undead cohort. Currently I can only have up to a 14 lvl cohort (as character is only level 16): I was/am looking at a Stealthy guy which could sneak up on targets and do damage and steal spells/powers, and was thinking a Vampire Rogue 2/Spell Thief 4. I would probably finish him out with Spell thief (as I progress). Now a Vampire can control up to 2 x HD (12HD in this case) in vampire/spawn that it creates. So was thinking that this cohort could then have a small entourage of it's own vampires. But would it be able to have a vampire under it's control that is over it's HD but under the cap? Lets say 10 HD? because then that vampire could then also have 2xHD in vampires (20HD) in vampries under it's control, etc... Obviously the Lord (my character) would need to make sure that the vampires did not get out of control and the upper vampires kept their minions in check, but would that be acceptable to have a vampire with more HD than the creating vampire? How does the control work? Thanks for help.
#17 jameswilliamogle Jan 23, 2009 14:28:12	With the Spawn ability, you are approaching "can break a campaign" territory again, just so you know... Very high on the power scale...
#18 syrkres Jan 23, 2009 15:12:41	JWO, Always, thanks for feedback. yes, I know. But just want to inform, I am creating this toon as an Evil guy. He will be used by the GM as an opponent for the Party to go up against. Right now, this guy alone with his minions could wipe out our entire party at his current level. He can create 192 HD worth of Undead with Mummies, Skeletons, Zombies. If he came directly at us, we would not be able to stop him, though it would be a glorious battle!!! Our GM tasked us to create our alter-egos, because we have this bond with them, thus we would know a bit about them, thus a bit how to defeat them. I am creating this guy that we will be going up against in a grand scale adventure. He will be sending his minions at us along the way. How we will go about defeating him will be a task indeed! Also, we (my alter-ego and myself) are the spawn of a Shadow Dragon, which has also become undead. So my alter ego is just a minion of even more powerful creature. Though from a gaming point of view we will not encounter him (Shadow Dragon) until EPIC levels (just to give some more background). There is also another society/organization, one that is working with "all the evil twins". They have realized the power they possess, and thus organizing them. We are trying to stop them. This is a carry over from our previous campaign (100 or so years in the past - where we where from previous campaign, which was EPIC [lvl 36+]). So having him be UBER powerful I think is ok. I am STAT'ing out all the monsters, the GM can then use them as he wants, where he wants. This is sort of how we co-GM so the GM doesn't have to do all the work, making it easier for him. We all have lives...
#19 jameswilliamogle Jan 23, 2009 15:16:18	Sounds good! I recomend investing in a Hat of Disguise and maximizing ranks in Disguise. If you pick the Imp familiar, remember it can polymorph into a Wolf. The character disguises itself as a gnome who is very "woodsy", and disguises his undead to look like trees. Thus, your "undead" army is now a "treant / woodsy" army, and instead of being under the control of an "undead kobold" is under the command of a "gnomish druid, with really weird spells".
#20 phaedrusxy Jan 23, 2009 15:22:41	If you decide not to go with the oh-so-broken vampire spawn train, you might check out this build I made a while back. With a little modification, it could probably work for what you want. Alternatives I considered: Feat Rogue 2/PalTyr3/Wilder2/Elocater 3 Dodge (FR1), Mobility (FR2), Able Learner (1), Mage Slayer (h), Shield Specialization (3), Spring Attack (6), Shield Ward (9), Sidestep Charge (El1) Feat Rogue 2/PalTyr4/Wilder2/Elocater 2 Dodge (FR1), Mobility (FR2), Able Learner (1), Combat Reflexes (h), Mage Slayer (3), Spring Attack (6), OPEN (9), Sidestep Charge (El1)
#21 syrkres Jan 23, 2009 15:24:16	Good tactic, being we have a Gnome in our party and another half-Dryad character. Will put it in the write up for him. Any input on the Vampire Cohort/Minions? Good idea? Also can a Vampire have a vampire under it's control with more HD than itself? Posted before I could see above post (will check out the build)...
#22 syrkres Jan 23, 2009 15:40:05	Phaed, are those alt builds also based on the same race? Evolved Undead Gravetouched Ghoul? Not sure I would be allowed the Evolved Undead, that is also from non-wizards source (don't believe any of us have it).
#23 jameswilliamogle Jan 23, 2009 15:43:32	The vampire can create other vampires if the new creature's HD are 5 or more: If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again. And the limit is 2 x original's HD, which means you could have a ? HD vampire bearing down on your party (assuming vampire ECL of ?)... Use the Dread Necromancer's Planar Binding spell to summon such powerful creatures with excellent abilities. EDIT: not sure what the ECL on the vampire will be; doesn't Undead Leadership reduce the LA by 2? Also not sure what level this will be at... Maybe this means that the vampire would have 10 HD, giving up to a 20 HD vampire via spawning. The Dominate ability that a vampire has could get anything, regardless of HD, under its control, but it is a tenuous grasp, as Dominate Person is removable with a number of effects... still worth it, imo.
#24 phaedrusxy Jan 23, 2009 16:18:23	Phaed, are those alt builds also based on the same race? Evolved Undead Gravetouched Ghoul? Yes. Changeling Evolved Undead Gravetouched Ghoul. :P Not sure I would be allowed the Evolved Undead, that is also from non-wizards source (don't believe any of us have it). That's from Libris Mortis, which is a WotC book. It can certainly do without it, though. I don't even remember why I picked it, actually. :D
#25 syrkres Jan 27, 2009 7:22:58	Phaedrus, Thanks found it, looks good, creatures gains all previous class abilities (if reading correctly). What I was hoping for with the Vampire though was the spawn ability, to create more minions. I can't get that with Ghoul (well at least not under the Ghouls control). I could with a Wight, but I don't have a Wight template. They do have a Wight Class levels in Libris Mortis but was wondering if anyone had the Template for the Wight or link to one? Or an creature that would give me similar ability. Thanks
#26 jameswilliamogle Jan 27, 2009 7:24:30	Shadows also are very powerful (at any level): touch attacks for Str drain? Yes, please! And spawning...
#27 syrkres Jan 27, 2009 9:09:50	JWO, The only template I can find for Shadow is from the MotP, and in that template it does not grant the STR draining (unless it is errata some where) or the Spawn ability. Do you have a source for them?
#28 phaedrusxy Jan 27, 2009 13:39:52	Umbral Creature in Libris Mortis (or Savage Species... I forget which) is basically a shadow for non-humanoids, and it's a template.
#29 jameswilliamogle Jan 27, 2009 14:38:07	I actually was referring to the basic shadow in the MM. A good thing to have for your not-lowest level followers.