Ok so here is the deal we play in a custom made campaign setting basically there are 5 different countries each based on a different mythology Egyptian, Greek, Norse, & Celtic. I know this does not add up to 5 but 2 of the countries are Norse one being more medieval and the other more nomadic. The basic set up is that an ultra good force has taken control of the countries and is suppressing evil as they see it.
Now I plan on playing a Cleric base specifically a cleric of an Egyptian death God, I was thinking Annubis but I am open to suggestions on this as well.
What I am looking for is a cleric who will eventually become undead himself and is heavily into undead control and creation. Help with appropriate feats and abilities along this path is also appreciated.
Also in the party will be Dread Necromancer who said he is planning on becoming a Necropolitan(sp?). Now I don’t want to crush his toes, but I told him I was playing a necromancer long before he was so I don’t mind stepping on his toes.
Now I am open to multi classing and prestige classes and I will be playing a human base. House ruled out is that there is no penalty for multiple classes so any form of multi-classing is open, with no penalty.
We will be starting a level 5 or 6 with 5k in standard items and 30-40K in magic items.
I am looking for a good progression as well as a good start I would say the campaign will probably reach at least 15 and maybe as high as 20th level.
We can use any 3.5 books except faerun and any other outside campaign book. Spell compendium, Libris mortus, BOVD, and all other similar 3.5 source books are allowed.
Edit: Sorry No psionics either. DE: sorry I forgot that warlocks are kind of off limits I could probably talk him into a one or two level dip but that is about it...
Now I have about two weeks to finalize this up and I will be checking this thread at least daily.
Thank you very much for your help.
Sorry if I left out any pertinent info I tried to cover it all if you leave me a message outlining what extra info is required I will supply it ASAP.
Edit: I am open to playing a not straight human race but it must be humanoid and I'm not really intrested in something with a huge level adjustment... Thanks again.
You lose 1 Cleric caster level for the Wiz or Sor level and 1 caster level at 1st level Master of Shrouds.
I think this would be a great start to look at.
Edit: Look up Lich in the MM pg. 166-168 and read the creation of the Lich's Phylactary.
Edit: Follow the Corpse Crafter Feats from Libris Mortis to make your undead more powerful.
Master of Shrouds (PrC) from the Libris Mortis can be acquired by 3rd level. Take 2 levels Cleric and 1 level Wizard or Sorcerer to meet the +5 will save quickly. Take the 2 required feats for your 1st and 3rd level feats and your skills should be at 6 ranks each by 3rd level.
You lose 1 Cleric caster level for the Wiz or Sor level and 1 caster level at 1st level Master of Shrouds.
I think this would be a great start to look at.
Edit: Look up Lich in the MM pg. 166-168 and read the creation of the Lich's Phylactary.
Edit: Follow the Corpse Crafter Feats from Libris Mortis to make your undead more powerful.
So the initial feats should go into Corpse Crafting the PrC does not have feat requirements?
I do not actually have the book but I have acces to it could you give me a gist of what the PrC does? Also, what would the progression be should I max out the PrC or should I go back to cleric? Also, does it add to your rebuke abilities?
Thank you for the input....
On a related/unrelated note, are dread necromancers fun to play?
Master of Shrouds PrC is focused around summoning and controlling incorporeal undead. It gives you boosted summoning abilities and rebuke undead progression as far as I know. I believe that Spell Focus(conjuration) and Augment Summons are necessary for the class but I could be wrong.
On a related/unrelated note, are dread necromancers fun to play?
Yes, they are. Crazy as hell too. If the entire party is undead or can heal from Negative Energy, they are like a walking Hospital thanks to Charnel Touch and their Pulse ability. I also think they're the only full-casters with 1/2 BAB that can get into melee without spells or PrCs to help them out (Archivist can but needs Divine Power and such to do so, Wizards can with Gish builds, but Wizard 20 has a nightmare of a time doing so). That DR/Bludgeoning and Magic is hard to get around, and even if they do get by it they can heal right back up.
Ninja Edit: It may be more enjoyable to go DN 20 or DN 6/Mind Bender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 7/True Necromancer 4 than Cleric builds. Makes them much more resilient. Qualify for Mind Bender via Eclectic Learning or Arcane Disciple, and TN via Arcane Disciple. Hell, you could make the best dual-casting Gish there is with that and a few Divine spells.
Yes, they are. Crazy as hell too. If the entire party is undead or can heal from Negative Energy, they are like a walking Hospital thanks to Charnel Touch and their Pulse ability. I also think they're the only full-casters with medium BAB that can get into melee without spells or PrCs to help them out
Druids?
Druids?
Whoops, meant Half BAB.
Instead of taking wizard or sorcerer, you should consider a one level dip into Dread Necromancer. You get the required +2 to will saves and charnel touch, so if you eventually become an undead, you can heal yourself at will (or pick the tomb-tainted soul feat). Also, you could choose to be neutral of alignment and pick positive energy with Cleric, so you'd get both turn & rebuke undead for divine metamagic (and extra turning boosts both too!). Then hop into Master of Shrouds to boost your divine spellcasting and rebuke undead ability.
Does tomb-tainted soul make you undead? Isn't that what it does? What is Master of Shrouds main deal? I mean what kind of class abilities and stuff does it come with.
Thanx guys
Edit: sorry had post replies on while I was posting. Can not clerics build undead as effectively as dread Necs with proper feat selection? I mean is it not just a crafting thing? And doesn;t the cleric's rebuke ability make him somewhat more versatile than a straight dread nec as well as having a very large spell list?
Cloistered Cleric 2/Warlock 1/Master of Shrouds 10/Elderich Disciple 7 Should come out pretty nice... Caster level 17 Cleric 8th level Invocations, 3 Least and 2 Lessers. 19/20 Rebuke undead too! With your first invocation, at level 3, Summon Swarm seems Pretty Strong, Coupled with Augment Summoning.
Personally, I'd prefer a Cleric 2/Warlock 1 over a Cleric 2/(Sorcerer/Wizard) 1, for the utility value.
Cloistered Cleric 2/Warlock 1/Master of Shrouds 10/Elderich Disciple 7 Should come out pretty nice... Caster level 17 Cleric 8th level Invocations, 3 Least and 2 Lessers. 19/20 Rebuke undead too! With your first invocation, at level 3, Summon Swarm seems Pretty Strong, Coupled with Augment Summoning.
We just had a guy abuse warlock so warlocks are off limits for a while sorry forgot to mention that to will repost in original to reflect.
What book is Cloistered cleric and Elderich Disciple out of?
I am assuming the summon swarm ability comes from master of shrouds and that Augmented summoning is a feat, if it is a feat which book please?
Alignment: any non good
Base Will Save +5 (This is the reason for the multi classing)
Feats: Augment Summoning and Spell Focus (Conjuration) 1st & 3rd if not using flaws or human
Skills: Concentration, Knowledge Religion, Spellcraft all with 5 ranks (should have by 2nd level)
Able to cast Protection from Good as a divine spell (1st level spell)
Able to rebuke undead (well you are evil aren't you?)
Thanks for all the input guys.
cleric 12/Dread Necromancer 8 build? any thoughts cleric 20 more effective or is tomb tainted and the other Dread nec abilities worth the spread? Thanx for the input.
Master of Shrouds (Handbook)
some great builds ...... lots of useful stuff
:D
By choosing cleric, you get access to all the cleric spells and it gives you more versatility as a caster. You can get goodies like Divine Power, and other such cleric spells. If you go augment summoning, spell focus (conjuration) it boosts all of your summoning spells as a whole. So All your summon undeads and your Summon Monster X.
Personally, I would say go Cleric 20 and don't switch. Sure with the Cleric 12/ DrN 8 build you get a lot of undead to summon, but you lose access to higher level spells and most people on the boards agree that is a big no no.
Since Master of Shrouds was the only Prestige Class mentioned, I'm going to throw in my two cents and suggest the Walker in the Waste from Sandstorm. It's a divine casting Prestige whose 10th level ability gives you the Dry Lich template, which is like a regular lich, but cooler. It's very tied to desert and waste environments, but it gets the ability to create Salt Mummies and Sand golems. You lose out on two caster levels, but that still nets you 9th level spells. It also gives you some fun SLA, mostly Pillar of Salt, so turn everyone who opposes you into nice delicious salt.
Does tomb-tainted soul make you undead? Isn't that what it does?
Tomb Tainted Soul makes you like undead for healing... so negative heals you and positive hurts you. On a Dread Necromancer, that's incredibly good, since you can deal negative energy damage all day long.
DNs are a great class... tons of fun. They're also great rebukers, due to being charisma based.
JaronK
Well, really depends what route you want to go. The whole Dread Necromancer's shtick is that he gets necromancy spells from both the cleric and wizard list. It's an extremely small spell list focused on necromancy, and if you want to play a necromancer, it is really high up there if all you want to do is make/be undead and use necromantic powers.
Yes I am interested in this but the DM has already expressed reluctance at one player running hordes of undead as that it bogs down combat for everyone else. I am actually more interested in controlling/ crafting small numbers of powerful undead so any info on this line would be much appreciated.
By choosing cleric, you get access to all the cleric spells and it gives you more versatility as a caster. You can get goodies like Divine Power, and other such cleric spells. If you go augment summoning, spell focus (conjuration) it boosts all of your summoning spells as a whole. So All your summon undeads and your Summon Monster X.
Personally, I would say go Cleric 20 and don't switch. Sure with the Cleric 12/ DrN 8 build you get a lot of undead to summon, but you lose access to higher level spells and most people on the boards agree that is a big no no.
Well does giving me more undead to control allow me to control higher HD undead or just more numbers? Also, what is the best method for creating/controlling big bad undead. I have been reading about this whole awakened undead out of SC and that sounds like the hot ticket item any tips on feat combos/progression to make this really work for me? Also because of the campaign setting it will necessary for me to disguise my undead, at least the fact that they are undead, any tips for spells/items to help this along?
Since Master of Shrouds was the only Prestige Class mentioned, I'm going to throw in my two cents and suggest the Walker in the Waste from Sandstorm. It's a divine casting Prestige whose 10th level ability gives you the Dry Lich template, which is like a regular lich, but cooler. It's very tied to desert and waste environments, but it gets the ability to create Salt Mummies and Sand golems. You lose out on two caster levels, but that still nets you 9th level spells. It also gives you some fun SLA, mostly Pillar of Salt, so turn everyone who opposes you into nice delicious salt.
I see the value of MoS, but I am not intrested in hoarde summoning I am much more interested in the creation/summoning/controlling/rebuking of high level undead. I am very interested in that PrC you mentioned The Waste Walker. Where could I find more about this any threads on it? Also, which book is it out of I am not familiar with Sandstorm. Alright I found out that sandstorm is a supplement, but it seems kind of crazy to spend that much money on a book i may never use anyone know where I can get a more complete look at it?
Thank you all very much
Edit: I thought Awakened undead was a spell but I am unable to find it in the SRD as a spell is it a feat or class ability? Also, I am looking for more info on crafting/creating undead any help or pointing me to a thread with this info would be much appreciated. In response to your tag tainted I know it is bad form to start a sentence with a preposition but in this instance it just makes it so much easier...
Yes I am interested in this but the DM has already expressed reluctance at one player running hordes of undead as that it bogs down combat for everyone else. I am actually more interested in controlling/ crafting small numbers of powerful undead so any info on this line would be much appreciated.
That's actually quite doable. You just have to find corpses of something big enough.
Well does giving me more undead to control allow me to control higher HD undead or just more numbers?
More HD in undead. That can be a few high HD undead or many low HD undead. I prefer the former.
Also, what is the best method for creating/controlling big bad undead.
Planar Binding to get a nice outsider. Kill it (I prefer binding it into a field of Ghoul Glyphs). Reanimate it with Create Undead. Lower its turn resistance with a Rod of Defiance and Lyre of the Restful Soul. Rebuke it.
I have been reading about this whole awakened undead out of SC and that sounds like the hot ticket item any tips on feat combos/progression to make this really work for me?
It works as long as you have Animate Dead.
Also because of the campaign setting it will necessary for me to disguise my undead, at least the fact that they are undead, any tips for spells/items to help this along?
Dread Necromancers get Disguise as a class skill. That works great.
Edit: I thought Awakened undead was a spell but I am unable to find it in the SRD as a spell is it a feat or class ability?
Awaken Undead is a spell. I don't remember where.
JaronK
Cleric 1/Dread Necro 2/Master of Shrouds 10/Dread Necro 7 = 20th level
Now you might want to consider switching between the DN and the MoS classes after 3rd level. Mix and match how you see fit.
Feats:
Human: Augment summoning
1st: Spell Focus(Conjuration)
3rd: Corpsecrafter (gives +4 str and +2 HP/hit die[effectively a +4 con])
I would then go with either Bolster Resistance, Nimble Bones, or Hardened Flesh as your next choice of feats. Though not in that order.
Yes I am interested in this but the DM has already expressed reluctance at one player running hordes of undead as that it bogs down combat for everyone else. I am actually more interested in controlling/ crafting small numbers of powerful undead so any info on this line would be much appreciated.
That's actually quite doable. You just have to find corpses of something big enough.
I was actually looking for something more like a mid to high level fighter to turn into a skeletal warrior as opposed to turning a giant into skeleton. Is this even doable? I thought it was because of the Awakened Undead thing. Would it be to many HD for me to control this way?
Well does giving me more undead to control allow me to control higher HD undead or just more numbers?
That can be a few high HD undead or many low HD undead. I prefer the former.
Roger that so HD is just HD no matter whether spent on a bunch of little things or lots of big things.
Also, what is the best method for creating/controlling big bad undead.
Planar Binding to get a nice outsider. Kill it (I prefer binding it into a field of Ghoul Glyphs). Reanimate it with Create Undead. Lower its turn resistance with a Rod of Defiance and Lyre of the Restful Soul. Rebuke it.
Where would I find those items and what level is Planar Binding? Also, where is ghoul glyphs found?
I have been reading about this whole awakened undead out of SC and that sounds like the hot ticket item any tips on feat combos/progression to make this really work for me?
It works as long as you have Animate Dead.
Which is a third level cleric spell so I would cast both spells at the same time to get the effect?
Also because of the campaign setting it will necessary for me to disguise my undead, at least the fact that they are undead, any tips for spells/items to help this along?
Dread Necromancers get Disguise as a class skill. That works great.
Yeah I wouldn't terribly mind the multi-class, but since it does not promote my clerical casting I am not sure if it is really worth it. Any thoughts on this one. I'm just not sure what is the best at this point still wrestling any suggestions and thoughts along this line will be helpful and appreciated.
Edit: I thought Awakened undead was a spell but I am unable to find it in the SRD as a spell is it a feat or class ability?
Awaken Undead is a spell. I don't remember where.
JaronK
Yeah it is in Spell Compendium don't have book on me anybody know what level cleric gets it?
Thanx again for the help guys good lookin.
Hate to burst the "Dread Necromancer Bubble", but the Dread Necro casts Arcane spells. Even though he aquires those spells from the Cleric list, it is still an arcane spell. Therefore the Dread Necro does not fit the qualification for the "Must be able to cast Protection from Good as a DIVINE spell." This leaves the cleric as one of the best classes to aquire it. Though I think it would be better as:
Cleric 1/Dread Necro 2/Master of Shrouds 10/Dread Necro 7 = 20th level
Now you might want to consider switching between the DN and the MoS classes after 3rd level. Mix and match how you see fit.
Feats:
Human: Augment summoning
1st: Spell Focus(Conjuration)
3rd: Corpsecrafter (gives +4 str and +2 HP/hit die[effectively a +4 con])
I would then go with either Bolster Resistance, Nimble Bones, or Hardened Flesh as your next choice of feats. Though not in that order.
Does Dread Nec get Rebuke as a class feature someone earlier said MoS did, but I am not sure if Dread Nec Does. Will Corpsecrafter affect my summoned creatures or just the ones I craft? (I assume from the name it is just crafted but just want to verify.) Would it not be more advantageous to finish MoS before going back to DN or cleric?
All help is appreciated thanx a lot for the time and help guys.
Does Dread Nec get Rebuke as a class feature someone earlier said MoS did, but I am not sure if Dread Nec Does. Will Corpsecrafter affect my summoned creatures or just the ones I craft? (I assume from the name it is just crafted but just want to verify.) Would it not be more advantageous to finish MoS before going back to DN or cleric?
All help is appreciated thanx a lot for the time and help guys.
Corpsecrafter is for any undead you raise or create.
The MoS has rebuke undead as does the cleric and the Dread Necro so they all stack. Whick means by 20th level you be 20th turning level.
That and all the other Feats I mentioned above all require the corpsecrafter feat as a prereq and they all affect your undead in some way that is beneficial. Such as +AC,+HP,+Init,+Turn resistance etc...
After you meet the qualifications for MoS you definitly want to start it. If you can borrow a book from a friend or buy one, you might want to space out going back and forth between DN and MoS up to 20th level. You only need the 1 level of cleric unless you want to persue being a cleric. The only reason you would want to go that route is if you want to get to the higher level spells quicker but you then lose all the nift'y stuff from DN. I never saw the Dread Necro befor until now. And it has some awesome stuff. It has DR 2/bludgeoning AND magic by 2nd level hence the Cleric 1/DN 2/MoS-DN
All you levels in MoS for Spells I would put in DN if you go this route if you go cleric then I would put the spell levels in cleric.
By 50th level you would definitly be DN 20/Cleric 20/MoS 10 with an effective caster level of 29 for DN and 20 for Cleric with a 50 level rebuke/command undead. Thats an undead Avatar :D
Spell Domain
Magic Domain
Divine Magician alt class feature instead of Knowledge domain.
Spontaneous Domain Casting instead of Spontaneous Inflict
This combo will let you use a huge variety of spells
-Anyspell and Greater Anyspell,from the Spell Domain, allow you to prepare and cast 2cond level and lower Arcane spells(Anyspell)and 5th level and lower spells(Greater Anyspell).This means access to Utility spells and things like Planar Binding.
-Magic Domain gives you the abiltiy to use Sorc/Wiz items.
-Divine Magician lets you pick Abjuration,Divination and Necromancy spells from the S/W list,one for each Domain slot you gave up.
Spontaneous Domain Casting lets you spontaneously cast spells from a chosen Domain, substituting them for prepped spells, just as you would with Cures or Inflicts .
These options will let you do almost anything that any other caster can do, in terms of necromancy.
The Spell and Magic Domains are available through Thoth(my Fave), but probably not through Annubis.The Divine Magician and Spontaneous Domain Casting, plus turning makes the cleric my candidate for best Necromancer.
If I recall correctly, Annubis has a huge collection of Domains, which cries out for the Substitute Domain,. It lasts days per level and is a 2cond level spell. With is one has even more spell choices and can benefit from the Domain power of one Domain until it is used up, and then switch to something else.Trickery for the in class skills and planning for Extend spell. Undeath until you use up the extra turning.
I dont think that the advantage of early Incorporeal undead is worth the caster level loss that the Master of Shrouds has to deal with, and the goofy feat you must take.
I would rather acquire access to Summon Undead 5(scroll)and Light of Wisdom (3rd level cleric) and start a Spawn army at level 5. If you're Evil instead of Neutral , you can do the same at level six, w/out the Light of Wisdom...
If you can , get access to the Spirit Binding , spell chain. It allows one to Call Incorporeal Undead, in the same way one might call Outsiders with Planar Binding.
This gives a way to get some of those awesome incorporeal undead without having to make them or find them.
My favorite prestige classes are Completive and Prognostic Apostle.Both have full casting progression, easy entry requirements, and the Apostle is a great boost to a Necromancer, since it offers full caster progression and Turning Progression, plus a way to improve your turning above character level!
Corpsecrafter is for any undead you raise or create.
The MoS has rebuke undead as does the cleric and the Dread Necro so they all stack. Whick means by 20th level you be 20th turning level.
That and all the other Feats I mentioned above all require the corpsecrafter feat as a prereq and they all affect your undead in some way that is beneficial. Such as +AC,+HP,+Init,+Turn resistance etc...
After you meet the qualifications for MoS you definitly want to start it. If you can borrow a book from a friend or buy one, you might want to space out going back and forth between DN and MoS up to 20th level. You only need the 1 level of cleric unless you want to persue being a cleric. The only reason you would want to go that route is if you want to get to the higher level spells quicker but you then lose all the nift'y stuff from DN. I never saw the Dread Necro befor until now. And it has some awesome stuff. It has DR 2/bludgeoning AND magic by 2nd level hence the Cleric 1/DN 2/MoS-DN
All you levels in MoS for Spells I would put in DN if you go this route if you go cleric then I would put the spell levels in cleric.
By 50th level you would definitly be DN 20/Cleric 20/MoS 10 with an effective caster level of 29 for DN and 20 for Cleric with a 50 level rebuke/command undead. Thats an undead Avatar :D
Yes I am very interested in the corpse crafting feats this is one of the reasons that MoS does not appeal to me, because I basically have to blow 2 feats, 100% that and the loss of caster levels.
Yes I know the dread Nec has some sweet abilities that is why i am interested in it, but I am concerned about the loss of caster levels as I have not been able to sit down to read it I have not been able to determine if the trade off between the high level cleric spells is warranted in trading off the DN abilities.
I seriouslyy doubt this campaign will last to 20 let alone 50, but once this character becomes a NPC I may consider that progression.
Also as a role play concept I see this character more as a cleric than a straight up caster so this affects my overall decision.
Thank you for the contribution.
Cloistered Cleric.
Spell Domain
Magic Domain
Divine Magician alt class feature instead of Knowledge domain.
Spontaneous Domain Casting instead of Spontaneous Inflict
This combo will let you use a huge variety of spells
-Anyspell and Greater Anyspell,from the Spell Domain, allow you to prepare and cast 2cond level and lower Arcane spells(Anyspell)and 5th level and lower spells(Greater Anyspell).This means access to Utility spells and things like Planar Binding.
-Magic Domain gives you the ability to use Sorc/Wiz items.
-Divine Magician lets you pick Abjuration,Divination and Necromancy spells from the S/W list,one for each Domain slot you gave up.
Spontaneous Domain Casting lets you spontaneously cast spells from a chosen Domain, substituting them for prepped spells, just as you would with Cures or Inflicts .
what is 2cond? I am not familiar with that term. Does the cleric not get all the same nec spells as the S/W only at an earlier level? This sounds like a very good build for my next character who will be a priestess of Isis. I was considering the double spell list PrC, but this sounds much more effective.
These options will let you do almost anything that any other caster can do, in terms of necromancy.
The Spell and Magic Domains are available through Thoth(my Fave), but probably not through Annubis.The Divine Magician and Spontaneous Domain Casting, plus turning makes the cleric my candidate for best Necromancer.
The deity is not set in stone I just am not interest in Seth, Ra, or Isis at the moment. Is Thoth an Egyptian God? I have never even heard of him. What Specific spells make the Divine Magician a worth while domain? I have been reading and Deathbound and Evil or some other one than evil seem to be the way to go. So you are also suggesting the straight cleric 20 build here correct?
If I recall correctly, Annubis has a huge collection of Domains, which cries out for the Substitute Domain,. It lasts days per level and is a 2cond level spell. With is one has even more spell choices and can benefit from the Domain power of one Domain until it is used up, and then switch to something else.Trickery for the in class skills and planning for Extend spell. Undeath until you use up the extra turning.
Oh so the Substitute domain is a spell at 2nd level? Do you happen to know what alignment Anubis is off the top of your head?
I don't think that the advantage of early Incorporeal undead is worth the caster level loss that the Master of Shrouds has to deal with, and the goofy feat you must take.
I would rather acquire access to Summon Undead 5(scroll)and Light of Wisdom (3rd level cleric) and start a Spawn army at level 5. If you're Evil instead of Neutral , you can do the same at level six, w/out the Light of Wisdom...
I am prone to agree with you if it was a low number of people in the party it might be worth it just because of the summoning at low levels, but with a 9 person party it is not that big a deal in my opinion to sacrifice what I am forced to sacrifice. I plan on being evil most likely Lawful Evil. What would a spawn army be?
If you can , get access to the Spirit Binding , spell chain. It allows one to Call Incorporeal Undead, in the same way one might call Outsiders with Planar Binding.
This gives a way to get some of those awesome incorporeal undead without having to make them or find them.
What is the spirit binding spell chain?
My favorite prestige classes are Completive and Prognostic Apostle.Both have full casting progression, easy entry requirements, and the Apostle is a great boost to a Necromancer, since it offers full caster progression and Turning Progression, plus a way to improve your turning above character level!
What books would these PrCs be found in?
Thanks for your help
Illumians make decent necromancers, due to their ability to apply metamagics for free twice per day with the right sigil selection. The example build in my MoS handbook which Carnivore provided a link for is an illumian. Dropping the MoS and just going with a cloistered cleric based on that character would also be a good option, and maybe even preferable depending on the campaign and what you're looking for. You can gain control of shadows via other means, if you want.
I agree mostly with Ronyon's suggestions. I'd probably go with Trickery instead of Spell, though. The skills it adds to your class list are great, as is the spell list. If you already have Divine Magician, I think the Spell domain adds little.
Illumians make decent necromancers, due to their ability to apply metamagics for free twice per day with the right sigil selection. The example build in my MoS handbook which Carnivore provided a link for is an illumian. Dropping the MoS and just going with a cloistered cleric based on that character would also be a good option, and maybe even preferable depending on the campaign and what you're looking for. You can gain control of shadows via other means, if you want.
I read your MoS handbook and found ti quite informative. It actually lead me to believe that I did not want to be an MoS lol. This is in no way a knock on your work or the ideas you presented it is just not the flavor of character I was looking to create ;) . I do not know where to find Cloistered Cleric and no one has answered that question for me so I know nothing about the class other than the little bits I have been able to pick up from the talk about it.
Thanks for stopping by and adding your opinion I did enjoy your thread and some of your builds are just straight up fu ckery at low levels good job bro.
Cloistered Cleric
:D
ask and recieve
Cloistered Cleric
:D
Dude you are like silent Bob In this Mofo you don't say much, but when you say it it means something and is useful. Coo dos to you brother.
Edit: I don't understand the bonus of this class unless it allows me to use the knowledge domain in addition to the standard 2 domains. Am I missing some vital Gouda here or what?
On an unrelated not i have just found the Tome of Necromancy thread and am reading the whole thread contemplating touching myself while i read
lol Anyway it may possibly be the best thread I've read to date.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=632562&page=2
Indeed it does let you take the knowledge domain in addition to the normal ones. It gives you plenty of skill points and decent saves as well.
ah hah than it is indeed useful and I like the bardic knowledge type skill I just won't be able to be a banger, but that's what my undead minions are for aren't they? Muhahahahaha
ask and recieve
Cloistered Cleric
:D
Page 50 in Unearthed Arcana just above the Savage Bard blowing his horn and weilding a sword one-handed.
Does this count as Exact.
:Dwhat is 2cond? I am not familiar with that term. Does the cleric not get all the same nec spells as the S/W only at an earlier level? This sounds like a very good build for my next character who will be a priestess of Isis. I was considering the double spell list PrC, but this sounds much more effective.
2cond is short for second, (not very short)sorry about the confusion.
This is incomplete list of spells that sorcerors and wizards get that clerics dont.
Aboleth Curse
Animate Dead Familiar (XP)
Animate Dread Warrior (XP)
Arrow of Bone (M)
Ashen Union
Aura of Terror
Avascular Mass
Avasculate
Awaken Undead (XP)
Backbiter (F)
Black Mulching
Blackfire
Blackwater Taint
Blight
Bone Chill
Bone Tattoo
Bonefiddle (F)
Foe's Burning Blood
Burrowing Bony Digits
Chill Touch
Circle of Death (M)
Clone (M) (F)
Command Undead
Control Undead
Curse of Impending Blades
Mass Curse of Impending Blades
Death Armor (F)
Death Grimace
Depression
Desiccating Bubble
Disrupt Undead
Greater Disrupt Undead
Doom Scarabs
Ebon Ray of Doom
Ectoplasmic Enhancement
Elemental Shroud
Enervating Breath
Enervation
Eyebite
False Life
Fear
Feign Death
Finger of Death
Fleshshiver
Gelid Blood
Ghoul Gauntlet
Ghoul Glyph (M)
Ghoul Touch
Graymantle
Grim Revenge
Gutwrench
Halt Undead
Healing Touch
Heart of Stone (F) (XP)
Heartfreeze
Heat Leech
Hide Life (XP)
Horrid Wilting
Imperious Glare
Incorporeal Enhancement
Junglerazer
Kiss of the Vampire (M)
Leech Ghost Skill (M)
Life Bolt
Liquid Pain
Magic Jar (F)
Miasma of Entropy
Mind Poison
Mindfrost
Necrosurgery
Negative Energy Burst
Negative Energy Ray
Negative Energy Wave
Night's Caress
Orb of Negative Energy
Parching Touch
Ray of Depletion
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Entropy
Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Sickness
Ray of Weakness
Rebuking Breath
Revive Undead (M)
Scare
Shadow Curse
Shadow Shield
Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt
Skeletal Guard (M)
Skull Snare
Soul Shackles
Spectral Hand
Spectral Touch
Spider Poison
Spirit Worm
Spiritwall
Steal Life
Stolen Breath
Sunstroke
Sword of Darkness (M)
Thalassemia
Threshold of Unlife
Touch of Fatigue
Transfusion
Undead Couduit
Undead Lieutenant
Undead Torch
Vampiric Touch
Visage of the Dead
Wail of the Banshee
Waves of Cold (M)
Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue
Wither
Wracking Touch
This list was compiled bythis site(Thank you IMarvinTPA!)
The deity is not set in stone I just am not interest in Seth, Ra, or Isis at the moment. Is Thoth an Egyptian God? I have never even heard of him. What Specific spells make the Divine Magician a worth while domain? I have been reading and Deathbound and Evil or some other one than evil seem to be the way to go. So you are also suggesting the straight cleric 20 build here correct?
Thoth is the Egyptian god of knowledge. In real life he was a big deal, and his worship often eclipsed other more well know gods. He worship was even melded with that of Hermes at one point. I like him because he is Neutral and and he has Knowledge, Magic, Craft, Rune, and Spell as domains.
Here are some first level spells that are available through Divine Magician.The highlighted spells are my favorite choices.
Alarm
Lesser Deflect
Hold Portal
Shield
Ancient Knowledge
Appraising Touch
Critical Strike
Detect Secret Doors
Golem Strike
Guided Shot
Identify (M)
Insightful Feint
Instant Search
Loresong
Magecraft (F)
Master's Touch
Sniper's Shot
Spontaneous Search
Targeting Ray
True Strike
Backbiter (F)
Chill Touch
Negative Energy Ray
Parching Touch
Ray of Enfeeblement
Sunstroke
So yeah, I think Divine magician is sacrificing one domain, especially if you get three(Cloistered Cleric)
Oh so the Substitute domain is a spell at 2nd level? Do you happen to know what alignment Anubis is off the top of your head?
Yeah, Substitute Domain is a 2nd level spell from page 128 of Complete Champion.Anubis is Lawful Neutral and has Law, Magic and Repose as Domains.Hmm, not so good. How about Set?He is Chaotic Evil, and has Air, Chaos, Darkness, Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Law, Magic, Scalykind, Sin-Envy, Sin-Pride, Sin-Wrath, Strength,and Vile Darkness as Domains. Nice!
I am prone to agree with you if it was a low number of people in the party it might be worth it just because of the summoning at low levels, but with a 9 person party it is not that big a deal in my opinion to sacrifice what I am forced to sacrifice. I plan on being evil most likely Lawful Evil. What would a spawn army be?
A spawn army is built by Controlling a undead creature that has the ability to create more of its kind from humanoids that it kills.These new undead are under the control of your undead, and are called spawn.So summon a Shadow, feed it a Commoner, control the resulting Shadow, and feed it more Commoners.Keep the one Shadow you have under direct control very safe, least you have thousands of uncontrolled Shadows on your hands.
This is potentially broken, but if you dont overdo it, your DM wont have to turn it against you...
Oh so the Substitute domain is a spell at 2nd level? Do you happen to know what alignment Anubis is off the top of your head?
Yeah, Substitute Domain is a 2nd level spell from page 128 of Complete Champion.Anubis is Lawful Neutral and has Law, Magic and Repose as Domains.Hmm, not so good. How about Set?He is Chaotic Evil, and has Air, Chaos, Darkness, Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Law, Magic, Scalykind, Sin-Envy, Sin-Pride, Sin-Wrath, Strength,and Vile Darkness as Domains. Nice!
What is the spirit binding spell chain?
A spell chain is a group of spells like the Summon Monster spells. They are similar at every level, but increase in their power, the higher level the spells get to be.
Spirit Binding,Greater Spirit Binding,and Lesser Spirit Binding make up the Spirit Binding spell chain.These are Wu jen spells, and appear on page 123 of Complete Arcane.If you can find a copy of Lesser Spirit Binding, Greater Anyspell will let you use it.
I prefer to commission a Wizard to research these spells as a Wizard spell, and then take Lesser as my 4th level Divine Magician choice.
The spell is great because it lets you call incorporeal undead creatures you can never make, and its a cheaper and lower level way of getting those that can be made with Create Undead and Greater Create Undead.
What books would these PrCs be found in?
Paragnostic Apostle is on page 94 of Complete Champion.Completive is on page 54 of Defenders of the Faith.
Thanks for your help
Just it paying forward.Clerical Necromancy is the bomb,and I love sharing info on it, just as others did for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StPeteGamer View Post
what is 2cond? I am not familiar with that term. Does the cleric not get all the same nec spells as the S/W only at an earlier level? This sounds like a very good build for my next character who will be a priestess of Isis. I was considering the double spell list PrC, but this sounds much more effective.
2cond is short for second, (not very short)sorry about the confusion.
This is incomplete list of spells that sorcerors and wizards get that clerics dont.
Quote:
Aboleth Curse
Animate Dead Familiar (XP)
Animate Dread Warrior (XP)
Arrow of Bone (M)
Ashen Union
Aura of Terror
Avascular Mass
Avasculate
Awaken Undead (XP)
Backbiter (F)
Black Mulching
Blackfire
Blackwater Taint
Blight
Bone Chill
Bone Tattoo
Bonefiddle (F)
Foe's Burning Blood
Burrowing Bony Digits
Chill Touch
Circle of Death (M)
Clone (M) (F)
Command Undead
Control Undead
Curse of Impending Blades
Mass Curse of Impending Blades
Death Armor (F)
Death Grimace
Depression
Desiccating Bubble
Disrupt Undead
Greater Disrupt Undead
Doom Scarabs
Ebon Ray of Doom
Ectoplasmic Enhancement
Elemental Shroud
Enervating Breath
Enervation
Eyebite
False Life
Fear
Feign Death
Finger of Death
Fleshshiver
Gelid Blood
Ghoul Gauntlet
Ghoul Glyph (M)
Ghoul Touch
Graymantle
Grim Revenge
Gutwrench
Halt Undead
Healing Touch
Heart of Stone (F) (XP)
Heartfreeze
Heat Leech
Hide Life (XP)
Horrid Wilting
Imperious Glare
Incorporeal Enhancement
Junglerazer
Kiss of the Vampire (M)
Leech Ghost Skill (M)
Life Bolt
Liquid Pain
Magic Jar (F)
Miasma of Entropy
Mind Poison
Mindfrost
Necrosurgery
Negative Energy Burst
Negative Energy Ray
Negative Energy Wave
Night's Caress
Orb of Negative Energy
Parching Touch
Ray of Depletion
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Entropy
Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Sickness
Ray of Weakness
Rebuking Breath
Revive Undead (M)
Scare
Shadow Curse
Shadow Shield
Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt
Skeletal Guard (M)
Skull Snare
Soul Shackles
Spectral Hand
Spectral Touch
Spider Poison
Spirit Worm
Spiritwall
Steal Life
Stolen Breath
Sunstroke
Sword of Darkness (M)
Thalassemia
Threshold of Unlife
Touch of Fatigue
Transfusion
Undead Couduit
Undead Lieutenant
Undead Torch
Vampiric Touch
Visage of the Dead
Wail of the Banshee
Waves of Cold (M)
Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue
Wither
Wracking Touch
This list was compiled bythis site(Thank you IMarvinTPA!)
So if I understand you correctly here taking the divine magician class will help me close the gap between me and say a DN because it would allow me to cherry pick the spells I want from the S/W spell list to make me a more effective Necro? Am I even reading that correctly?
Thoth is the Egyptian god of knowledge. In real life he was a big deal, and his worship often eclipsed other more well know gods. He worship was even melded with that of Hermes at one point. I like him because he is Neutral and and he has Knowledge, Magic, Craft, Rune, and Spell as domains.
Here are some first level spells that are available through Divine Magician.The highlighted spells are my favorite choices.
So yeah, I think Divine magician is sacrificing one domain, especially if you get three(Cloistered Cleric)
Yes I like his list also I am planning on going this route now with Cloistered Cleric and talking my DM into allowing me to take Deathbound. the other 2 domains will be knowledge and Divine Magician so I have access to some of the S/W spells. Any suggestions on which spells are the best level by level?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StPeteGamer View Post
Oh so the Substitute domain is a spell at 2nd level? Do you happen to know what alignment Anubis is off the top of your head?
Yeah, Substitute Domain is a 2nd level spell from page 128 of Complete Champion.Anubis is Lawful Neutral and has Law, Magic and Repose as Domains.Hmm, not so good. How about Set?He is Chaotic Evil, and has Air, Chaos, Darkness, Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Law, Magic, Scalykind, Sin-Envy, Sin-Pride, Sin-Wrath, Strength,and Vile Darkness as Domains. Nice!
Yes also I read the description of Anubis and not only is he a lesser God, but he does not support the use of undead except for mummies used to guard tombs. SO that pretty much rules him out since I want to play a necromancer. I am leading toward Thoth I like his selection the best and I am sure I can talk my DM into allowing the Deathbound domain. If I understand this correctly The Substitute Domain spell allows me to substitute domain spells from other domains into my domain? Set is pretty much a non-starter just because of character concept and the condition of the world.
A spawn army is built by Controlling a undead creature that has the ability to create more of its kind from humanoids that it kills.These new undead are under the control of your undead, and are called spawn.So summon a Shadow, feed it a Commoner, control the resulting Shadow, and feed it more Commoners.Keep the one Shadow you have under direct control very safe, least you have thousands of uncontrolled Shadows on your hands.
This is potentially broken, but if you dont overdo it, your DM wont have to turn it against you...
Yeah the first time I tried that except maybe to guard my evil lair my DM would geek me.
A spell chain is a group of spells like the Summon Monster spells. They are similar at every level, but increase in their power, the higher level the spells get to be.
Spirit Binding,Greater Spirit Binding,and Lesser Spirit Binding make up the Spirit Binding spell chain.These are Wu jen spells, and appear on page 123 of Complete Arcane.If you can find a copy of Lesser Spirit Binding, Greater Anyspell will let you use it.
I prefer to commission a Wizard to research these spells as a Wizard spell, and then take Lesser as my 4th level Divine Magician choice.
The spell is great because it lets you call incorporeal undead creatures you can never make, and its a cheaper and lower level way of getting those that can be made with Create Undead and Greater Create Undead.
I am unfamiliar with the Greater Anyspell. So I don't really understand your thought process here.
Paragnostic Apostle is on page 94 of Complete Champion.Completive is on page 54 of Defenders of the Faith.
I think contemplative is the route for me.
Just it paying forward.Clerical Necromancy is the bomb,and I love sharing info on it, just as others did for me.
yeah well all info is helpful thank you for your time any additional help will be greatly appreciated.
Can someone explain the benefit of heightened turning as it regards controlling undead to me the feat is on pag 20 of Defenders of the Faith
Edit: Can someone tell me whether the Rod of Authority described in DoF on page 25 would allow me to control a higher HD undead?
Edit: MoS as described in defenders of the faith requires will save +5 Concentration 10 ranks, Spellcraft 10 ranks
Now it says it gives total spell progression, but does not provide rebuking progression. however it does provide a few spells not normally on the cleric list. Is this different from the one you guys are talking about it seems like the requirements are different as well as the progression? Is yours old or is mine?
Thanks
The Master of Shrouds we're talking about is from Libris Mortis, and it is quite different than the one you're talking about.
Carnivore wrote a "complete guide to turn undead". You could probably find answers to alot of your questions on Turning/Rebuking in there. You can find a link to it in the "Handy Links" thread.
The Master of Shrouds we're talking about is from Libris Mortis, and it is quite different than the one you're talking about.
Ok and ok I am still looking for Libris Mortis in my pack, but thanks.
Ok and ok I am still looking for Libris Mortis in my pack, but thanks.
Defenders of the Faith is 3.0 and is one of the older 3.0 books. Libris Mortis I believe is 3.5 and was put out way later. So LM trumps DoF.
Defenders of the Faith is 3.0 and is one of the older 3.0 books. Libris Mortis I believe is 3.5 and was put out way later. So LM trumps DoF.
Roger that the DoF I was reading had Updated next to a lot of the PrCs so I wasn't sure which was the right one.
Also I have been unable to find the everything you need to know about rebuking thread if someone could post a link to it I would appreciate it very much.
On another note I think I have decided on my build. I plan on going cloistered cleric until somewhere between 10-15 and then switching to the Walker in the Waste PrC. Edit: I am reading the New DN handbook http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515&page=12 and it says I could enter WiW by lvl 5 you guys think this is worthwhile?
So now that that is settled I was wondering on feat progression and suggested items. We are starting at 5th level and have 30k, there is some wiggle room here probably, to spend. I plan on becoming focused on undead crafting and along this route I plan on creating one uber body guard, instead of hoards, so any help with this will also be appreciate.
All help is greatly appreciated.
Edit: how many rods can one use at any given time?
A solid DN build has always been DN 20, but for versatility going DN 9/Sand Shaper 1/Fiend-Blooded 9 (Heroes of Horror) and picking up some Rune Staffs (custom ones work best) is always a good idea. Walker in the Waste is marginally better than DN 20 due to Unholy Toughness allowing you to dump Con outright. DN 8/WiW 10/Sand Shaper 1
A Cleric has better things to do than attaining Lichdom.
WiW after 8th level is fine for a DN. Feats to take are Corpse Crafter, Nimble Bones, Destructive Retribution, most Divine feats, Extra Turning, Tomb-Tainted Soul, Domain Devotion feats (namely Law or Knowledge Devotion, as most of your spells are Touch range at the low levels IIRC), Versatile Spellcaster, Practical Metamagic, and either Twin Spell, Chain Spell, or Rapid spell.
A solid DN build has always been DN 20, but for versatility going DN 9/Sand Shaper 1/Fiend-Blooded 9 (Heroes of Horror) and picking up some Rune Staffs (custom ones work best) is always a good idea. Walker in the Waste is marginally better than DN 20 due to Unholy Toughness allowing you to dump Con outright. DN 8/WiW 10/Sand Shaper 1
A Cleric has better things to do than attaining Lichdom.
Why is that sir? Is there a different undead type that is more appropriate for clerics? eventually my character will become undead so why not WIW?