Looking for suggestions for a character build (Meat shield?) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 muertog Sep 29, 2008 17:12:46	Alright. Starting a new campaign (World's Largest Dungeon, if you have heard of it before), and I have had 3 characters stolen out from under my feet. Kind of Idea'ed out by now, and trying to come up with my 4th interesting build. Mostly hack/slash, but want to put -some- modicum of roleplaying into it. Players have followed RPGA rules (Greyhawk region, Complete series, Environment series are allowed; Eberron, Psionics, Forgotten Realms are verboten). We already have a rogue/scout, as well as a Warlock. First inclination was to build a Skill-monkey factotum-fighter. After declaration, another player declared he had already picked out a bard skill-monkey and asked not to step on toes. Decided on a Barb/Primeval build, and was told that the last player didn't want to play the cleric role, so donated the build that way. Started on a cleric build, but found a warlock/cleric/eldritch disciple, and the warlock player decided that would be a good idea, so giving it over again. (Yay! I don't have to play the cleric AGAIN!) Current roles include Rogue/scout/trapfinder Bard/Skillmonkey/Knowledge Devotion (no social skills) Barb/Primeval/Charging meatshield melee Warlock/Cleric/item creation. Was thinking of a different fighter type, since the last game I was in was weak on front-line meatshields. Just need suggestions. I like keeping the build relatively simple (no 5 different PrCs, please), basic party makeup seems to be relatively neutral (little evil, mostly neutral), so paladin might be a little abrasive. Yes, I have read through the fighter char-op thread, but haven't seen anything that really grabbed my interest.
#2 muertog Sep 29, 2008 18:02:29	Ah, additional information: Starting at level 1, so no +LA races. I've thought about trying a dex-based build, but the damage output just seems so pathetic compared to a power-attacking strength-monger.
#3 rebel7284 Sep 29, 2008 18:15:57	you are very obviously missing a wizard.
#4 muertog Sep 29, 2008 18:23:44	Yes. I have been looking over the builds, saw some interesting gish stuff. The problem is we have 1 guaranteed caster/healer/blaster-type, 2 pseudo-second line types, and one tremendous meat shield. I was thinking a second meat-shield would be useful in that regards. I suspect there will be an amount of "Leadership" used to fill in arcane casting holes. Not to mention that past 4 campaigns I have been in, I've been stuck as the designated cleric. Getting tired of the role, although a sorc-based caster might be alright. Wizards would be limited due to the lack of towns/scrolls.
#5 innabinder Sep 29, 2008 19:12:06	Have you considered Duskblade? The "Inhuman Reach" build actually lets you use a Shield, if you want to do the Weapon & Shield route without Improved Buckler Defense.
#6 golem1972 Sep 29, 2008 20:17:49	SPOILER!! sort of... The Worlds Largest Dungeon has a lot of hallways / small rooms. Many of the traditional battlefield control spells are banned because they'd be to powerful in this narrow setting. So, if you want to play a tank type, I suggest you try one of the lockdown builds. There are several builds out there for lockdown, but mostly they boil down to reach weapon (spiked chain is nice, but not necessary - any reach weapon + spiked guantlets will do) + AoO + stand still (general feat from expanded psionics handbook). Monsters enter your threatened area, take an AoO, and stop moving - they end their turn without getting to do any damage. Later levels add in Hold the Line (they take a 5 foot step, so do you), Mage Slayer, Robilar's Gambit, etc. Mostly this is a straight Fighter build, Psychic warrior can add in an extra feat early + expansion (large size is your friend), or some of the tome of battle classes (crusader or warblade probably) Iron Heart Surge to shake off spell effects, and Healing Strikes (you're your own bandaid) come in handy. Best of luck with the dungeon crawl, it can really drag in some places. P.S. it's best if your not chaotic or evil, and getting the magic items you want can be very tough.
#7 muertog Sep 29, 2008 21:57:16	References to WLD (spoilers) Show We have all been warned by the future DM that "dimensional effects, direct consulatation with Deity, and scrying" will be limited.
#8 natenate Sep 29, 2008 22:02:44	Gnome Druid is always a strong choice, assuming you can use a Knowledge: Nature check for what you can Wild Shape into. I'd suggest using the Spontaneous Rejuvenation variant from PH2 if possible, because... Show In WLD teleportation and planar travel effects don't work. Any summoned creatures will never be able to return home, and may turn on you at the end of the spell's duration.
#9 kurashu Sep 29, 2008 22:50:32	Crusader is one option that hasn't been suggested. You could actually combine crusader and cleric with ruby knight vindicator. Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/X5 (perferably a full casting prestige class). Also, wildshape ranger 5/master of many forms 10/warshaper 4/monk 1 would be a good build. Or even scout 4/ranger 16 with swift hunter and nemesis. Long hallways? A charging paladin build may be good: paladin 5/pious templar 5/grey guard 10. Or...Paladin 5/Monk 2/Argent Fist 10/Psychic Warrior 3. Just ideas.
#10 natenate Sep 30, 2008 0:53:06	Another good charging paladin build would go Human Fighter 1/ Paladin 19, with Charing Smite, Exotic Weapon: Ritiik (FB), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip by level 6. Get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power and prepare Rhino's Rush. You'll get +4 damage per -1 for Power Attack with Leap Attack, +3 damage per Paladin level for Charging Smite, and everything will be doubled thanks to Rhino's Rush. If you hit they'll have to make a DC 10+damage dealt Reflex save to avoid being hooked, when they inevitably fail you'll get a free trip attempt, after which you'll get another attack vs their prone AC (but without smite damage) thanks to Improved Trip. At the end of it all pull out the Ritiik to deal damage equal to the initial attack again (the Reflex DC damage). Go Dragonborn of Bahamut instead and use Dive Attack with Rhino's Rush to deal tripple damage, but forget about the Fighter level since you won't need the jump ranks for Leap Attack. Make a Dread Necromancer and you've got all the meat shields you'll ever need Show because you can use Summon Undead to permanently create free undead minions, just be sure to use a Rebuke check to establish control before the spell ends. Use that repeatedly during downtime to get your maximum number of undead controlled.
#11 kurashu Sep 30, 2008 8:51:51	Paladin 5/Pious Templar 5/Grey Guard 10 is better than Fighter 1/Paladin 10 because you'll get some nice goodies from Pious Templar 5/Grey Guard 10, more than extra uses of remove disease. Plus, you get paladin casting from pious templar that's advanced by grey guard. Another idea I just had that might work for this: Dragonfire Adept. Or Dragon Shaman. You could go Warlock 4/Fighter 1/Talon of Tiamat 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/X 3. That would get you warlock casting 12 depending on what you take as your last three levels.
#12 ninjarabbit Sep 30, 2008 10:04:12	I'd probably go for some kind of battlefield control warrior too passive way monk2/psiwarrior2/fighter1/warmind5 to start out. From there just figure out where you want to go, another level of fight, more levels of warmind, and levels of psychic weapon master and exotic weapon master are good ideas.
#13 Caylin Sep 30, 2008 10:14:17	Except for psionics being forbidden as per the op.
#14 muertog Sep 30, 2008 10:27:44	Thanks for the suggestions. What books do I look for more info on Duskblade spells (Where the heck does the Raise Dead reference come from in the Duskblad Handbook?), or more exactly what books have Duskblade references? I like the paladin builds, although mounts have always had a bad habit of dying on me... (FOR PONY!), but I'll have to wait til I get a confirmation of the party alignment. Lawful good + Chaotic can be problematic. Lawful good + Evil is a definite issue. :P Feats are not quite as serious a problem as usual since we are using a beta version of another >ahem< product. For some reason it gives feats every other level to all classes. :/ More easily overpowered than I like, but we'll see how it goes. ^_^
#15 innabinder Sep 30, 2008 11:29:47	Thanks for the suggestions. What books do I look for more info on Duskblade spells (Where the heck does the Raise Dead reference come from in the Duskblad Handbook?), or more exactly what books have Duskblade references? As a PHII class, Duskblade doesn't get a WHOLE lot of supplemental support; one of the few references to it that I seem to recall is in Eberron and therefore offlimits to you. Feats like Extra Spell might be your friends; talk to the DM. Duskblades can Turn Undead by dipping into the Sacred Exorcist PrC. There are other ways - see Surreal's 'Lists of Stuff' thread - but that's usually considered the most painless method.
#16 muertog Sep 30, 2008 19:00:44	Looking more into the Duskblade, liking the idea of applying 4 or 5 strikes of shocking grasp or vampiric touch per round. Looking at starting with a two handed sword, power attack, charge to maintain initial use in the campaign, but need further official printed proof allowing whips as ranged melee weapons that can be used for touch applications. I know that it can be used to do a touch attack for disarm and trip attacks, but not sure how to prove that it can be done more than once per round (not counting cases where the trip or disarm attack fails). Otherwise, I suppose it would be primary attack, disarm attempt, trip attempt... Knowing the new DM, it might or might not be allowed without further proof. Additional cheese: Arms and Equipment Guide describes whip daggers "treated as a ranged weapon". Would this work in conjunction with the feat "Rapid Shot"? PHB describes whips as "melee weapon with 15-foot reach". Does this work with the feat "Improved Trip", where "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt." That would be a very broken method of distributing Duskblade touch spells... "Target: Touch attack (apply effect), trip, immediate attack (apply effect), New target: (repeat)". That could be upwards of 10 applications in a single round! Final thought: Is there a feat that removes the AoO when using a ranged weapon within melee range? I thought there was something, but I can't seem to find it.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

muertog

Sep 29, 2008 17:12:46

Alright. Starting a new campaign (World's Largest Dungeon, if you have heard of it before), and I have had 3 characters stolen out from under my feet. Kind of Idea'ed out by now, and trying to come up with my 4th interesting build. Mostly hack/slash, but want to put -some- modicum of roleplaying into it. Players have followed RPGA rules (Greyhawk region, Complete series, Environment series are allowed; Eberron, Psionics, Forgotten Realms are verboten).

We already have a rogue/scout, as well as a Warlock. First inclination was to build a Skill-monkey factotum-fighter. After declaration, another player declared he had already picked out a bard skill-monkey and asked not to step on toes. Decided on a Barb/Primeval build, and was told that the last player didn't want to play the cleric role, so donated the build that way. Started on a cleric build, but found a warlock/cleric/eldritch disciple, and the warlock player decided that would be a good idea, so giving it over again. (Yay! I don't have to play the cleric AGAIN!)

Current roles include
Rogue/scout/trapfinder
Bard/Skillmonkey/Knowledge Devotion (no social skills)
Barb/Primeval/Charging meatshield melee
Warlock/Cleric/item creation.

Was thinking of a different fighter type, since the last game I was in was weak on front-line meatshields. Just need suggestions. I like keeping the build relatively simple (no 5 different PrCs, please), basic party makeup seems to be relatively neutral (little evil, mostly neutral), so paladin might be a little abrasive. Yes, I have read through the fighter char-op thread, but haven't seen anything that really grabbed my interest.

muertog

Sep 29, 2008 18:02:29

Ah, additional information: Starting at level 1, so no +LA races. I've thought about trying a dex-based build, but the damage output just seems so pathetic compared to a power-attacking strength-monger.

rebel7284

Sep 29, 2008 18:15:57

you are very obviously missing a wizard.

muertog

Sep 29, 2008 18:23:44

Yes. I have been looking over the builds, saw some interesting gish stuff. The problem is we have 1 guaranteed caster/healer/blaster-type, 2 pseudo-second line types, and one tremendous meat shield. I was thinking a second meat-shield would be useful in that regards. I suspect there will be an amount of "Leadership" used to fill in arcane casting holes.

Not to mention that past 4 campaigns I have been in, I've been stuck as the designated cleric. Getting tired of the role, although a sorc-based caster might be alright. Wizards would be limited due to the lack of towns/scrolls.

innabinder

Sep 29, 2008 19:12:06

Have you considered Duskblade? The "Inhuman Reach" build actually lets you use a Shield, if you want to do the Weapon & Shield route without Improved Buckler Defense.

golem1972

Sep 29, 2008 20:17:49

SPOILER!!

sort of...

The Worlds Largest Dungeon has a lot of hallways / small rooms. Many of the traditional battlefield control spells are banned because they'd be to powerful in this narrow setting. So, if you want to play a tank type, I suggest you try one of the lockdown builds.

There are several builds out there for lockdown, but mostly they boil down to reach weapon (spiked chain is nice, but not necessary - any reach weapon + spiked guantlets will do) + AoO + stand still (general feat from expanded psionics handbook). Monsters enter your threatened area, take an AoO, and stop moving - they end their turn without getting to do any damage. Later levels add in Hold the Line (they take a 5 foot step, so do you), Mage Slayer, Robilar's Gambit, etc.

Mostly this is a straight Fighter build, Psychic warrior can add in an extra feat early + expansion (large size is your friend), or some of the tome of battle classes (crusader or warblade probably) Iron Heart Surge to shake off spell effects, and Healing Strikes (you're your own bandaid) come in handy.

Best of luck with the dungeon crawl, it can really drag in some places.

P.S. it's best if your not chaotic or evil, and getting the magic items you want can be very tough.

muertog

Sep 29, 2008 21:57:16

References to WLD (spoilers)

Show

We have all been warned by the future DM that "dimensional effects, direct consulatation with Deity, and scrying" will be limited.

natenate

Sep 29, 2008 22:02:44

Gnome Druid is always a strong choice, assuming you can use a Knowledge: Nature check for what you can Wild Shape into. I'd suggest using the Spontaneous Rejuvenation variant from PH2 if possible, because...

Show

In WLD teleportation and planar travel effects don't work. Any summoned creatures will never be able to return home, and may turn on you at the end of the spell's duration.

kurashu

Sep 29, 2008 22:50:32

Crusader is one option that hasn't been suggested. You could actually combine crusader and cleric with ruby knight vindicator. Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/X5 (perferably a full casting prestige class).

Also, wildshape ranger 5/master of many forms 10/warshaper 4/monk 1 would be a good build. Or even scout 4/ranger 16 with swift hunter and nemesis.

Long hallways? A charging paladin build may be good: paladin 5/pious templar 5/grey guard 10. Or...Paladin 5/Monk 2/Argent Fist 10/Psychic Warrior 3.

Just ideas.

#10

natenate

Sep 30, 2008 0:53:06

Another good charging paladin build would go Human Fighter 1/ Paladin 19, with Charing Smite, Exotic Weapon: Ritiik (FB), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip by level 6. Get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power and prepare Rhino's Rush. You'll get +4 damage per -1 for Power Attack with Leap Attack, +3 damage per Paladin level for Charging Smite, and everything will be doubled thanks to Rhino's Rush. If you hit they'll have to make a DC 10+damage dealt Reflex save to avoid being hooked, when they inevitably fail you'll get a free trip attempt, after which you'll get another attack vs their prone AC (but without smite damage) thanks to Improved Trip. At the end of it all pull out the Ritiik to deal damage equal to the initial attack again (the Reflex DC damage). Go Dragonborn of Bahamut instead and use Dive Attack with Rhino's Rush to deal tripple damage, but forget about the Fighter level since you won't need the jump ranks for Leap Attack.

Make a Dread Necromancer and you've got all the meat shields you'll ever need

Show

because you can use Summon Undead to permanently create free undead minions, just be sure to use a Rebuke check to establish control before the spell ends. Use that repeatedly during downtime to get your maximum number of undead controlled.

#11

kurashu

Sep 30, 2008 8:51:51

Paladin 5/Pious Templar 5/Grey Guard 10 is better than Fighter 1/Paladin 10 because you'll get some nice goodies from Pious Templar 5/Grey Guard 10, more than extra uses of remove disease. Plus, you get paladin casting from pious templar that's advanced by grey guard.

Another idea I just had that might work for this: Dragonfire Adept. Or Dragon Shaman. You could go Warlock 4/Fighter 1/Talon of Tiamat 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/X 3. That would get you warlock casting 12 depending on what you take as your last three levels.

#12

ninjarabbit

Sep 30, 2008 10:04:12

I'd probably go for some kind of battlefield control warrior too

passive way monk2/psiwarrior2/fighter1/warmind5 to start out. From there just figure out where you want to go, another level of fight, more levels of warmind, and levels of psychic weapon master and exotic weapon master are good ideas.

#13

Caylin

Sep 30, 2008 10:14:17

Except for psionics being forbidden as per the op.

#14

muertog

Sep 30, 2008 10:27:44

Thanks for the suggestions. What books do I look for more info on Duskblade spells (Where the heck does the Raise Dead reference come from in the Duskblad Handbook?), or more exactly what books have Duskblade references?

I like the paladin builds, although mounts have always had a bad habit of dying on me... (FOR PONY!), but I'll have to wait til I get a confirmation of the party alignment. Lawful good + Chaotic can be problematic. Lawful good + Evil is a definite issue. :P

Feats are not quite as serious a problem as usual since we are using a beta version of another >ahem< product. For some reason it gives feats every other level to all classes. :/ More easily overpowered than I like, but we'll see how it goes. ^_^

#15

innabinder

Sep 30, 2008 11:29:47

Thanks for the suggestions. What books do I look for more info on Duskblade spells (Where the heck does the Raise Dead reference come from in the Duskblad Handbook?), or more exactly what books have Duskblade references?

As a PHII class, Duskblade doesn't get a WHOLE lot of supplemental support; one of the few references to it that I seem to recall is in Eberron and therefore offlimits to you. Feats like Extra Spell might be your friends; talk to the DM. Duskblades can Turn Undead by dipping into the Sacred Exorcist PrC. There are other ways - see Surreal's 'Lists of Stuff' thread - but that's usually considered the most painless method.

#16

muertog

Sep 30, 2008 19:00:44

Looking more into the Duskblade, liking the idea of applying 4 or 5 strikes of shocking grasp or vampiric touch per round.

Looking at starting with a two handed sword, power attack, charge to maintain initial use in the campaign, but need further official printed proof allowing whips as ranged melee weapons that can be used for touch applications.

I know that it can be used to do a touch attack for disarm and trip attacks, but not sure how to prove that it can be done more than once per round (not counting cases where the trip or disarm attack fails). Otherwise, I suppose it would be primary attack, disarm attempt, trip attempt...

Knowing the new DM, it might or might not be allowed without further proof.

Additional cheese:
Arms and Equipment Guide describes whip daggers "treated as a ranged weapon". Would this work in conjunction with the feat "Rapid Shot"?
PHB describes whips as "melee weapon with 15-foot reach". Does this work with the feat "Improved Trip", where "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt."

That would be a very broken method of distributing Duskblade touch spells... "Target: Touch attack (apply effect), trip, immediate attack (apply effect), New target: (repeat)". That could be upwards of 10 applications in a single round!

Final thought: Is there a feat that removes the AoO when using a ranged weapon within melee range? I thought there was something, but I can't seem to find it.