Okay, I want to do this as a separate thread. I want to build a Wizard for D&D 3.5 and am focusing on comat-oriented spells. Since damage spells are abyssmal in the 3rd Ed.s, I'm looking for spells that can win battles, or at least be the most effective. Just to cover the bases, two spells I'm set on having are Sleep and Dispel Magic (the best variations of each spell).
So, what I'm asking of experienced players as I'm only familiar with 4th Ed. is:
Which spells do you think are the best to go for? If possible, could you tell me which book(s) the spells you list are from? Also, listing them by level would be very helpful.
I've tried to compile a list myself, but my work and home life have left me almost zero research time, and my complete lack of experience with the 3rd Ed.s makes choosing spells very difficult as Wizards in the 3s play vastly differently from 4th Ed. Wizards.
Thanks in advance. 
samcifer wrote:
Anything that says "Save negates". Generally targeting Will.
For much more, go read the handbooks tempest linked you.
Specifically, by school
Transmutation http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=3h2kkbo7tlht51egjcpt0lo1a7&topic=394.msg8103#msg8103
For reference, I believe the general consensus is that conjuration and illusion are the best schools and evocation is the worst.
Transmutation>Illusion usually.
Krusk wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
...You printed it out? That's... dedicated. It's a handbook, not a rulebook - you generally reference it during construction, instead of memorizing it while learning the game.
samcifer wrote:
Tempest, your last handbook link is to Gleemax and thus nonfunctional. I don't even know which handbook you're linking to, so I can't suggest a replacement.
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
O... Kay... That's certainly not what I would describe as an Illusion. Guess I should find some articles on Illusion spells then, if they don't work as mere images as I thought they did. So a Shadow Evocation Falming Sphere can actually cause damage? If so, how? The concept still confuses me... Kinda makes me feel dumber by the moment. :P
It tricks reality into thinking there's really a fire and reality burns you. Best part of Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation? You're basically spontanious casting. There's a trick where you can pretty well spontaneously cast any level Evocation or Conjuration spell but it's a bit complicated and involves some Shadowcraft Mage trickery. Also it goes into something like 110% or maybe even 120% REAL magic. The silly point there is that your spells in theory deal additional damage if the opponent saves to realize their an illusion rather than reduced damage.
Illusion's very powerful, it is also easily the most advanced school to learn. I'm a giant fan of Conjuration lately, and used to be a Transmutation pusher (cause I like a gish). Illusion gives you miss chance, and miss chance is king of survival because of one simple fact, it doesn't scale negatively with the power of your opponent the way AC does.
samcifer wrote:
Conjuration and transmutation are pretty straightforward in solving combat, social, and puzzle encounters. From those two schools you have things that grant you extra actions, things that carve up the battlefield into manageable chunks, things that completely bypass challenges, things that create allies, things that make allies better allies, things that make you money, and on and on. All within those two schools. They are just unfair.
While illusion and enchantment are pretty much my favorite schools ever, they do take quite a bit of finesse and a willingness to see tactical (or strategic) options in terms other than overt violence. I've seen encounters that were meant to make a high level party quake in fear instead brought low and made trivial by the power of a simple, first level spell. (silent image) I've seen an entire battalion of orcs turn tail and run because of several allied casters using that same spell. I've seen it get people into secure areas, past stone golem sentries, and more. It's done all of those things without even allowing the monsters or NPCs a save. The illusionist merely decided that the story should go in a particular way, and so it did. And that's just with a spell that you get at first level.
Necromancy is kind of a mid-point in subtlety, in my opinion. It takes some thought to make the most of something like magic jar, but animate dead is pretty obvious. It's another school where its best spells are not the overtly offensive ones.
EDIT: I usually suggest that new wizard players pick evocation as a prohibited school, which forces them to think of solutions other than fireball. Evocation can be good, but its good spells are not the ones that are intuitively compelling for new players.
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
What about the 'Bite of the..." spells from Spell Compendium? I love the idea of turning into a werewolf, for exapmple, and since I plan on keeping Transmutation, I think the 'Bite' spells would add both fun and a few nice buffs to my wizard. I know that (at least most) spells don't require those buffs, but they can help If I get wailed on, or get trapped in a situation where I can't use magic (an anti-magic field, for example). Besides, fur is the new black, after all.
samcifer wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Do anti-magic fields disrupt spells that were already cast, such as the "Bite" spells, if you walk into them after triggering the spell?
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Nope, Dispel Magic can't hit an AMF. No spells work in an AMF's area, and in order to dispel an emanation you need to hit the origin point with the dispel. That origin point is smack in the middle of the field - the field where no spells can work. AMF really does cause a lot of problems, entirely because it's so hard to defeat if used against you.
The main rules are described with the spell (and it's really all there), and repeated when it's discussed as a special ability. In this case, it's explicit: Both entries say " Dispel magic does not remove the field".
Also, just because the spell says "werewolf" doesnt mean it does what it says. Alter Self is a better werewolfing spell than Bite of the Werewolf. Or, play a Shifter, which is a PC-firendly "lycanthrope" race (though they don't like the comparison).
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
samcifer wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Ah, that's understandable (and it certainly puts the "print out the entire Wizard Handbook" thing in context!). I wasn't trying to be confrontational.
Of course, there's a mismatch between the names of spells and what they actually do, in several cases. My favorite example from the PHB is Otto's Irresistible Dance.... which allows for Spell Resistance and thus is pretty far from irresistible. Similarly, Permanency is pretty far from permanent since it can be easily dispelled (when most permanent effects are actually "instantaneous" or say they restore themselves if they're dispelled). Particularly complex spells like the shapechanging ones are very problematic - Alter Self is often used to copy special abilities from unusual monsters who share a type with you (especially if the caster is an outsider), instead of being used to create a physical disguise.
Also: I've edited my earlier posts in response to subsequent replies.
AMFs can be a problem even with the tinfoil hat solutions both with things like dust of negation (which will be under any hat that deploys), and the fact that the attackers will generally include someone there who can immediately cut through the physical blockade because they were already needed to either kill the nerfed target or lock them down so they can't simply walk out of the field. But that's why you go adventuring with friends; when someone does manage to get you locked down and magic-free, the party members that you're working your magic beside the rest of the time step up to smack them in the face.
Ironically, Mordenkainen's disjunction (one of the few things with even a chance of cracking through an antimagic field) is more of a potential danger for the mage than the field, since it can be used to destroy outright all the magical defenses that the field would merely suppress.
Well, here's my 4th Ed. Lvl. 7 Tiefling Wizard to show the type of Wizard I enjoy playing to give you a better feel for what I'm used to, but sadly cannot play in anything except D&D 4th Ed., apparently, as 5th will kill any chance of me ever playing a character like this again, if the reports on 5th Ed. are true).
I focused on a two-pronged approach with a mixture of pyro-oriented spells (fire spells) and control spells. I have several tomes to give me versatility and many of my fire spells are relegated to them as there's spells that can't go into any tome. I took an accuracy-over-damage approach due to my horrible luck with die rolls.
The char stats are high due to DM approved die rolls for stats (I managed to get lucky for a change on the die rolls during char creation.
I have a LOT of tomes, msotly for variety of spells/powers to use in case I come into a situation I'm not prepared for. I know it does not increase my powers-per-day, but I can adapt fairly easily. Thanks to my items, feats, theme, maxed INT and Pyromancy School, I can attack with a +12, or +14 if it's a Fire -based power and can ignore Fire Resistance for full damage. Because of all of this, I'm the strongest attacker in my party.
Spello Thello
Tiefling (+2 Int and +2 Cha)
Mage (Wizard) (Evocation: Reroll a 1 on 1 Evo power damage die per turn and Pyromancy Schools - +1 Atk for Fire powers- at Apprentice, Pyromancy School at Expert - Ignore Fire Resistance when attacking with Fire powers)
Lvl. 7
Str: 13, Con: 15, Dex: 19 (18 + 1), Int: 21 (18 + 2 + 1), Wis: 17, Cha: 16 (14 + 2)
Stat Modifiers: Str: +1, Con: +2, Dex: +4, Int: +5, Wis: +3, Cha: +3
AC: 20, Fort: 20, Ref: 21, Wil: 22
HP: 49, Speed: 6, Initiative: +7
Infernal Prince Theme +1 Atk for Fire powers), Occupation Foe Killer Background (for Perception training)
(skills skipped on here, too tedious and not relevant to combat for the most part)
Spells:
Cantrips: Magic Missile (via Mage build), Mage Hand, Disrupt Undead, and Light
A-W: Hypnotism and Beguiling Strands
Encounter powers:
1: Darkening Flame and Charm of Misplaced Wrath
3: Fire Shroud and Grim Shadow
7: Fire Burst and Fire Sea Travel
Daily Powers (+1 per Level via Expanded Spellbook feat):
1: Sleep, Spirit Rend, and Wizard's Fury (love the extra attack per round even if it's weak)
5: Web, Thunderstaff, and Watery Sphere (Lv. 1 Daily)
Utilities:
2: Charm of Protection and Shield (DM hates this one! >:-) )
6: Watery Double and Grim Isolation (Tiefling-only)
Tomes with other Spells:
Summoner's Tome: Sum. Fire Warrior and Sum. Magma Beast
Tome of Dispel
Tome of Replenishing Flame: Flaming Sphere and Fountain of Flame
Tome of Replenishing Flame (2nd): Fire Mantle and Fireball
Tome of North Wind: Bigby's Icy Grasp and Freezing Cloud
Wailing Tome: Dimension Door and Horrid Whispers
Tome of Illusions (DM approved created item): Phantom Chasm and Visions of Avarice
Notable equipment: Magic Accurate Staff +3, Defensive Accurate Staff +2 (for the boost to my defenses), Amulet of Elegy +2, Belt of Vim +1, Ring of Fortitude +1 (DM-created item), Veteran's Armor +2.
Feats: Hellfire Blood, Tome Expertise (great with Mage Hand!), Expanded Spellbook, Staff Expertise, and Superior Implement Training (Accurate Staff).
I'm still looking up a lot of this (as I kind of gave up on 4e after the first PHB, and WotC uses its own subscription tools instead of open-sourcing the actual power descriptions), but from what I've gathered, there's a lot of overlap here - most are different flavors of "deal fire damage, plus a small extra effect (usually on a hit)", with a small number of support spells in the form of summons and dispels, and a small number of non-fire (presumably to deal with fire immunes - I don't know how common resistance or immunity is in 4e as a whole, but it's almost certainly less prevalent than in 3e - by design).
Just about any wizard build can pull something pretty close to this off without any hassle. Your individual spells are going to do more (i.e. Black Tentacles outdoes anything I've seen on that list in terms of controlling territory and locking down foes), but there will be less overlap (both between support/fire and between the individual fire effects).
There's a large amount (feats and magic items) invested into making sure your spells have a high attack bonus. In 3.5, the parallel would be your spell DC, and possibly your caster level (which should be boosted if at all possible anyway). If you have feats to burn and/or are looking for simplicity when you start out, getting basic DC-boosting feats (Spell Focus is school-limited, but if you have spell focus in both evocation and conjuration (all the fire spells are these two schools, except for a few niche ones in Transmutation), you'll qualify for Archmage later on with ease) would be a wise call. Note that the boosted DCs for the fire spells also apply to other spells from these schools, so they'll power up the save DCs for your non-fire spells to some degree as well. (The question is, of course, what those spells actually are.)
I'd also suggest the Firey Burst feat. It's not all that amazing, but as training wheels from 4e it will certainly help. It gives +1 caster level to all fire spells, and as long as you've got a fire spell prepared, the feat gives you an at-will supernatural ability to create fire blasts. The strength of those blasts depends on the strength of your strongest fire spell prepped. (If you cast that spell, the feat then looks for the next strongest, and so on.) If the importance of it being supernatural isn't clear, supernatural abilities don't provoke opportunity attacks when you use them, aren't vulnerable to counterspells (which admittedly are very rare), and most importantly, bypass all spell resistance. You'll still have to deal with energy resistance, but using this blast won't cost you spells and you'll learn if something resists right off.
EDIT: There's only one other reserve feat that strikes me as appropriate for your build, and it's Summon Elemental. The elemental you summon won't last all that long, but it will be available at will for a short duration. The fact that it's a supernatural ability is a distinct advantage here: those are only standard actions to do (unless they say otherwise, which Summon Elemental doesn't), while a typical summon spell takes your whole turn and the time from the end of your turn to the start of your next one to cast. This is of lower priority than any other feat I mention here, given the discussion in the thread, but I do think it would bear mentioning. (Also, since it's an at-will summon, you can easily use this to remotely set off traps. "That's a pressure plate that the rogue can't disarm. Stand back, summon an elemental, click *BOOM*, okay, moving on.)
The other major area I see in your build is a focus on knowing a LOT of different spells. You get this effect for free with the 3.5 wizard (buy multiple spellbooks and take the time to copy many new spells over whenever you get a moment or two to write; Boccob's Blessed Books in the DMG are wonderful investments for this. You can find new spells by finding or buying scrolls, looting spellbooks from enemy wizards (though they usually keep them somewhere other than the front lines), copying them out of friendly wizard's books (this is an easier proposition than decoding enemy spellbooks first, but obviously you have to do something to warrant payment of this kind) and by performing individual research during downtime even if you aren't gaining a level at the time), but you can kick it into overdrive with the Collegiate Wizard feat from Complete Arcane (it dramatically improves how many spells you start with and how many you learn at every level automatically). I don't know what the 4e tomes actually do (they appear to be places to hold extra spells, but I'm not sure how actually casting those spells works - they presumably don't need to be rotated back to you), but you're clearly used to lugging around a few extra books with you for more spells you learn along the way.
Those two feats together - Firey Burst + Collegiate Wizard - plus possible DC boosters gives you something very similar to your build, all things considered. You'll be right at home with this. (Don't worry too much about Spell Resistance - it isn't all that common early on, and you can learn True Casting (1st) or Assay Spell Resistance (4th) if you need to break it down. Spells like this make Spell Penetration generally speaking a poor feat.)
Other feats include Empower Spell and Split Ray (both metamagic; only take the latter if you really like rays), Knowledge Devotion (only if you really like rays - but it actually does a very good job with Scorching Ray in particular), and Craft Wondrous Item (if you have to pick one item creation feat, this is it; Craft Wand can be a close second). Feats that reduce the cost of metamagic feats (i.e. Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic) are generally good calls, but you don't need to worry too much about the game of monkeying with metamagic until you've got a few wizard levels under your belt.
In terms of prestige classes, I'd stick to the ones that are closest to "pure" wizardry. The short list for these is usually Master Specialist (Complete Mage; ignore this if you're not specializing), Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane), Incantrix (Player's Guide to Faerun; observe that this one is stupidly powerful in the right hands. Note as well that it requires more specialization, on top of being a specialist - you'd probably have to give up Enchantment by the time you qualify here. I wouldn't worry too much - Sleep will have long since lost its use, and more and more is immune to mind-affecting magic as you go up in levels, and the basic build you've suggested can almost entirely be captured in evocation, conjuration, transmutation and abjuration), and Archmage (DMG; it's not usually a must-have because the requirements are rough, but if you're grabbing the spell focus feats anyway...). Usually no one stays a single-classed Wizard past level 3 (if they're entering Master Specialist) or past level 5 (if they're entering almost anything else). Keep this in mind when you select your feats - plan out your prestige classes early, and make sure you get their prerequisites online early enough.
In terms of spells, the Holy Fire build I just posted (see my sig) hits almost all of the main ones, and it wasn't built to convert this at all. It's also a sorcerer, which involves a much more cautious spell selection.
Look at that build's fire spells, and the list of spells linked in my first reply, plus Dispel Magic / Sleep / Web (and a small number of new support spells, since you certainly will have more to choose from there than you did in 4e, both in terms of number and diversity. Examples: Dimension Door, Scrying, Mirror Image and/or Invisibility, any long-form communication effect, etc.). You'll get something pretty close (as long as you're using a lesser tiefling instead of the standard tiefling. The lesser one is identical to the standard tiefling, except its type is Humanoid (not native outsider) and its level adjustment is +0 (absolutely critical)), and can probably still kick ass. It'll just be a different style of kick from what you're used to - and you'll be able to do the metaphorical equivalent of throw punches or pull submission holds as well, when earlier all you could do was kick.
The only thing that I think isn't around in 3.5 is the simple no-nonsense Pyromancy School at expert. There's a handful of ways to bypass a small amount of energy resistance, but they're almost never worth the cost. You usually bypass energy resistance with Energy Substitution, but you can't apply that feat on the fly. Searing Spell is similar and fire-specific, but is again kind of costly for the effect. That's why Holy Fire went to Silver Pyromancer, which allows him to switch his fire spells over to use irresistable divine power (although if you're just interested in this one effect, a single level dip in Sanctified One of Kord would be similar; it's in Complete Champion, which really is a rather cheesy book all considered). This, however, is a far cry away from your theme.
The only real changes will be the shift from "per encounter" to learning to pace yourself over the course of the day, and realizing that the game rewards tactical choices that don't relate to damage. (You may be surprised, but after you set up some of your spells - i.e. Black Tentacles + Acid/Solid Fog, possibly splashing a wall of fire if you must - your best course of action is actually to stay clear and delay or ready actions as a troubleshooter. Your spells will continue to tick away on their durations and constantly tie up and slaughter enemies with no further spells spent on your part.) Learning these things can be a bit jarring coming from 4e (or rather, the 4e that I'm familiar with - let's be honest, it probably mutated a bit as more was published), which is why I really went overboard earlier with the browbeatings about damage spells being poor choices and so on.
EDIT-2: I said earlier that you could probably get something very similar using warlock. Having seen the build, I'm sure of it. Eldritch Glaive (optional), Eldritch Chain, Eldritch Cone; Brimstone Blast, Hellrime Blast; either of the dispel invocations; aim for Hellfire Warlock. This, right here, is alarmingly close in spirit and MUCH simpler to build and play than a full 3.5 wizard.
If you're feeling saucy, build both. You'll see what I mean.
Quote:
"~~The other major area I see in your build is a focus on knowing a LOT of different spells. You get this effect for free with the 3.5 wizard (buy multiple spellbooks and take the time to copy many new spells over whenever you get a moment or two to write; Boccob's Blessed Books in the DMG are wonderful investments for this. You can find new spells by finding or buying scrolls, looting spellbooks from enemy wizards (though they usually keep them somewhere other than the front lines), copying them out of friendly wizard's books (this is an easier proposition than decoding enemy spellbooks first, but obviously you have to do something to warrant payment of this kind) and by performing individual research during downtime even if you aren't gaining a level at the time), but you can kick it into overdrive with the Collegiate Wizard feat from Complete Arcane (it dramatically improves how many spells you start with and how many you learn at every level automatically). I don't know what the 4e tomes actually do (they appear to be places to hold extra spells, but I'm not sure how actually casting those spells works - they presumably don't need to be rotated back to you), but you're clearly used to lugging around a few extra books with you for more spells you learn along the way."
End Quote
To answer this, you basically give up the use of a Daily or Utility of a level equal to or lower than that of a power/spell in the book and you can use the power (of the same type of daily or utility) from the book instead in that encounter. If you don't use the book's power before the encounter ends, you lose the use of either for the day. It basically substitutes one spell for another of equal or higher value/level.
A-W (At-Will powers) and Cantrips can be used every turn unless specified as an Encounter or Daily. Encounters can be used once per encounter and dailies once per day. Dailies refresh after 8 hours of rest (called an Extended Rest), or the approximation thereof.
samcifer wrote:
As for Tome Expertise feat, it gives all players a +2 Atk (Combat Advantage) against any enemiy adjacent to a Sunjuration or Summoned creature. Tomes can also ive a +1 to +6 Atk boost, depending on the Tome and the level of it.
Toss that under "improve accuracy"; it's exactly the same story. Really, quite a lot of effort goes into attack bonuses in 4e; the same thing goes into manipulating saving throws and CL in 3.5.
Note that there are similar debuff effects to what you're discussing. In fact, the hexblade I'm playing in Dead for Nothing (see my sig) specializes in these (although there's only so many you can get on a single-classed character with no templates, and as under-equipped as I currently am). He does dish out respectable physical damage (not ubercharger level, but enough to chew through HP fast enough to warrant being chosen as the partner for a White Raven Tactics often enough)... but his real thing is weakening enemies numerically, especially on their saving throws and attack rolls. Illusionists and enchanters also do this surprisingly well, as do bards or barbarians if they're built for it.
Here's an article on monster stats from 4th Ed. that can help you see the differences for them from the 3s.
... Helpful if I actually include the link. :P
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?229092-Lots-of-statistics-from-the-Monster-Manual
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Also, Warlocks don't have access to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list.
Don't be so hung up on class names. Its a lot different than 4e, where your class is a huge portion of defining you. In 3.5 Its very common to see builds like "Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Ranger 2/Horizon Walker 10/Something else 5" and the player will say "I'm basically a wandering barbairan from the frozen north" or "Wizard 5/Master specialist 3/Initiate of 7 fold veil 7/archmage 5" who says "Im THE best abjurer in the world".
If you play a warlock you could be a "Powerful mage devoted to blowing stuff up with fire".Who cares that your build is "Warlock 5/hellfirewarlock 3/warlock 12"
in 3.5 saying "I';m afighter" tells you literally nothing about someone's character, outside that the probably have some hit points. They could be a defensive specialist, a two handed destroyer, a master archer, a mounted knight, etc. And casters are even more varried.
samcifer wrote:
Keep in mind that you're asking this of the optimization board; the default out-of-the-box game seems to assume characters and opponents of no particular expertise and is relatively okay with things like an unaltered meteor swarm dealing 1/4 of the average CR 20 opponent's hit points (note "dealing" damage; defenses are another matter). It generally doesn't account for arbitrary improvements in tactics in any kind of direct fashion, and has characters fight their way up a CR pyramid where increasing in level means you're more likely to fight multiple lower-level opponents because there are more of them available.
Once you go beyond that, a lot depends on how far you go beyond it. And, ultimately, if optimization were applied equally to both sides of the DM screen, you'd die constantly because the game mechanics available to a DM include everything available to a PC and a whole boatload of additional optimization that they can't easily touch. Optimization certainly can make a character's mechanical design more effective at ending combats quickly, but we don't play "Arms Race: The Exploitation" and the 3rd Edition game doesn't seem to have been designed with a lot of it in mind.
As far as the warlock goes, flavour is generally mutable and if you want to portray them as more wizardly it still works. While I've customized flavour for my characters more in 4th Edition than 3rd, it was mainly due to already writing up the 4th Edition powers for convenient reading than because I couldn't achieve something similar in 3rd Edition (though the fact that 4th Edition powers aren't as specifically rich in detail does help it, as my candy wizard could attest).
EDIT: I'll note that I do agree with some of the other replies here on various points, I'm just mentioning different considerations.
To further expand, it's not that Wizards are bad at dealing damage. To suggest such a thing would actually be insane. Wizards are great at dealing moderate amounts of area damage starting around level five. They're solid at doing single-target damage at around level eleven.
The important point is that Wizards simply have better things to do with their time than do damage. Damage is the weakest of their available options.
It's like if you had one guy in a Camry (the Fighter) and the other (the Wizard) is in a Corolla S. The performance of each is actually comparable, but the Wizard's garage actually has a Nissan GT-R, a Ford Raptor, a Bentley Mulsanne, a Lamborghini Aventador, a Ferrari F12 Berlinetta, a 200 ft super-yacht, a suite of motorcycles, a 787 air liner, stealth bomber, and a frickin' fully functional Federation starship. And a death star. The Wizard can totally get by driving the Corolla, but ... ya know ... why?
I guess a lot of my problem with 3.5 is that it requires the player to be much more create that I am. I'm more like Bender from the Futurama movie Bender's game.
One kid playing awizard says: "I cast... A cloud of Darkenss." (everyone oos and ahhs)
DM: "Bender?"
Bender: "I... um... cast... a Cloud of Darkness! Oooooo!"
I guess I'm too used to more structured games where you have a set list of possible actions in combat and just pick the best one among them. That's why I prefer a blaster-type of Wizard with some utility-type powers on the side for a little variety.
samcifer wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
samcifer wrote:
True...
Well, here's a plan. Over the weekend I'll go over a list of spells and tactics using 3.5 materials and formulate a character concept based around those. It'll be mostly focused on Abjuration, Conjuration, Illusion (for the Shaow spells), and Transmutation spells. Once I have a list, I'll post it here and maybe we can brainstorm a way to make a strong, playable character off of my ideas. It may sound counter-intuitive, but I think that by deciding what all I want my character to do, I can nail down the exact Class, Race, Feats, etc. that it will take to make the character work, and we can look at which spells work and which don't (I'll go through a few guides online to help me avoid the most worthless spells... Except Fireball - no arguments!)
Since I can have more than one spellbook in 3.5 (4th limits you to one, making tomes and implements holding specific spells mandatory if you want a wider variety of spells/powers), I'll be able to have a wider variety of spells to choose from as well as having access to spells like Magic Weapon and Wish, which don't exist in 4th Ed.
Grrr! dndtools.eu is down. 
That's the site I've been using to research spells and such as it has the only complete list of spells with search tools. Well, while I'm waiting for it to come back up, I've read over some of the Shadowmage handbook and like what I've read there so far. The one thing I hate about the build is that it's mandatory to have your race as Gnome. I'm just not a fan of them, truth be told, regardless of how effective they might be. What about using Heighten Spell with Earth Spell on Shadow Conjuration/Evokation to use higher level Conj/Evo spell effects, like Meteor Swarm? Would that combo work?
I've passed along this warning about four times now, and I'm repeating it for emphasis: DO NOT PLAY A SHADOWCRAFT MAGE AS YOUR FIRST CASTER. They really are insanely complex and require near perfect recall of every spell you can emulate, every round. I'm reasonably experienced as far as optimizers go and didn't find it half as fun as I wanted it to be.
With that said:
samcifer wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
d20srd lacks a lot of spells, such as those in PHB2, which are only really listed online at dndtools.eu. The list of spells there is well over 1000 (granted that the count includes repeats of spells if they are in 2 or more sourcebooks), amking it the only truly complete list of spells I've been able to find online.
The reason I thought of the shadowmage variant is that I thought of possibly finding a way to use the Shadow Conj/Evo spells to get the use of the Conj/Evo spells while specializing and prohibiting the Evo school to gain the benefits of specializing while still getting to use Evo spells (I believe the Shadow Evo spell lets you use it to cast things like Magic Missile even when the Evo school is prohibited to the player, correct?)
If I can do that, and I understand that I can ready Shadow Evo multiple times, I can use it to make any Evo (of an appropriate level) at the moment I cast the spell, making it a swiss army knife that I can flip open to the correct utensile the instant I hold up the knife. By that, I mean prepare the spell for the day 3 times, then in one situation where an enemy gets doused in gasoline, I can use Shadow Evo as Fireball to light them up, then against an enemy that's vulnerable to lightning I can use SE as Lightning Bolt, then use my 3rd use of SE as Magic Missile against a third foe (not counting saving throws to disbelieve, that is, to determine damage, just sighting examples of how SE can be used as a multi-tool spell withit its limitations).
samcifer wrote:
Just as a rule you won't want to play an exceptionally complicated character early on as you'll likely leave yourself spending a lot more time thinking about what your options are than what you're actually spending enjoying the game. That and you'll need to do a lot of research, which I'll note you don't really seem to mind.
Consider this with the hologram spells we discussed earlier. A wall of fire or wall of stone that isn't, probably wil be as effective as the real thing. Most people are not going to take the time to test it during a real fight. Your only issue then becomes people identifying your spells as you cast them.
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One of my players is playing a Wizard as his first D&D (of any edition) character. He does have the advantage of never having played fourth edition (or any tabletop RPG), though. I find that people who started with 4e have a hard time (for whatever reason - don't take this as a knock on 4th) dealing with the mindset that goes into playing literally every other RPG out there. As Samcifer said, 4th is more about selecting the best option from a finite list (each of which has finite, explicit uses). Escaping that mindset is difficult, but not impossible.
That said, I will echo Tempest: DO NOT PLAY A SHADOWCRAFT MAGE. Don't get me wrong. It's my favorite class of all time. Of the last seven characters I've played, five have been shadowcraft mages. It's just that making the most of them and truly appreciating the power they bring requires experience with the system. Play a single-classed Wizard. Play a Sorcerer. Play a Warlock. Whatever. Just stay away from the more crazy builds and obscure options for your first time. Try out various types of spells, pretending you're actually in the world rather than playing a game. Try to come up with ways to deal with a given obstacle that don't involve damage. It will bring you more into the imaginative experience, which is really the whole point, and as a side benefit will make you more skilled at the game.
NineInchNall wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
Also, word to the wise: Think about the numbers a bit.
Shadow Evocation is a 5th level spell (DC 15+Int). Using it to emulate a Fireball (10d6, or 35 on average; reflex half) will deal one of four possible damage values on average, before resistances, Evasion, or True Seeing kick in: 35 if both saves fail, 17 if the Will fails and the Reflex passes, 7 if the Will passes and the Reflex fails, and a whole 3 damage if both pass.
A plain ol' Empowered Fireball (DC 13+Int) takes up the same 5th level slot and deals 52 damage if the Reflex save fails, and 26 if it passes.
This also says nothing of actual 5th level AoE fire spells (like the Spell Compendium's Firebrand, which is similar to fireball in that it's AoE fire with SR: Yes and Reflex Half, but it caps at 15d6 (the same effective damage as an empowered fireball), hits a much more selective area (specifically, a huge number of 10-foot bursts, each individually aimed), and damages things on the following round as well).
The difference between 15+Int and 13+Int is pretty trivial (particularly when you're making two saving throws), while the difference between those damage values is not.
This is reason alone to not rely on Shadow spells as a primary offense if your goal is damage.
Plus, if you're levelling up to that point, you won't have access to shadow evocation for quite some time, nor will you have an abundance of 5th level slots to use on either one.
This is why I strongly suggested something like Firey Burst as a set of "training wheels". It encourages you to prepare strong spells, while giving you an at-will ability to use while you're still saving those strong spells for the right moment. Note as well that the build I suggested earlier has a lot of support for Fire spells, but Shadow Evocation is NOT a fire spell, even if it's copying the effects of one. (That is, a 9th level wizard with Firey Burst (+1 caster level to fire spells) could cast Fireball and deal 10d6 damage, but his Shadow Evocation of Fireball would try to deal 9d6; likewise, Shadow Evocation wouldn't count as a fire spell for Firey Burst.)
EDIT
Basically, the way you're describing how you want your damage spells is the way spontaneous casters work, not the way wizards work.
A sorcerer, warmage, or similar spontaneous caster would know both Fireball and Lightning Bolt, and whenever he needed either he'd check off a 3rd level spell and produce whichever he wanted.
Alternatively, they could use Energy Substitution, a metamagic feat that doesn't change the level of the spell it modifies. This feat would take a bit of time to apply (so a standard-action spell would take a full action to cast), but it would let you throw out a Coldball or an Acid Bolt (let's say, if you need a 20' burst but it shouldn't be fire).
A wizard, contrariwise, has to prepare ahead, anticipating or scrying around to figure out what's going to happen. Not having the perfect spell for the job is part and parcel of how that plays. This also encourages wizards to prepare things like Shadow Conjuration - or, more commonly, spells that are useful in multiple situations without relying on the "shadow" subschool (examples include Invisibility, Fly, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Haste, etc.), since whenever a situation comes up, one of those will probably save the day. Coordinate with your party in this case (i.e. a team with few warriors won't benefit as much from Haste).
NineInchNall wrote:
Well, yes. Pruning heuristics are (trivially) a way of reducing the paralytic effect of large numbers of options. However, pruning sufficient to reduce computational complexity to the point that the hypothetical novice could reasonably utilize the class/build also reduces the economic benefit of actually using that class/build rather than a much simpler one.
Which was the whole point.
NineInchNall wrote:
Hellfire Warlock requires 12 ranks in some skills, meaning it can't be taken until your 10th level (you need level 9 to have 12 ranks in any skill in the first place, and must qualify before taking levels in hellfire warlock.)
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
If you're looking for versaility in spells there are some really basic tricks to making spells more versatile, one of them is Sculpt Spell which I believe most people agree you pick the configuration upon casting rather than prep (as otherwise just makes it amazing for Spontaneous, but not great at all for Prepped). Extroardinary spell aim goes a long way as well, but if you want to get into the nitty gritty going Archmage for a few levels can get you Mastery of Elements and Mastery of Shaping. If you've got Sculpt Spell on your AOE's and Mastery of Shaping/Elements they will do damn near anything you want them to.
A Warlock can do pretty wel the same thing without any feats or PRCs but they'll probably be behind just a bit on damage, or need to get a lot of specialized gear to keep up.
NineInchNall wrote:
Well, I did it. For better or worse, here's my generalized spell list. Strangely, a few spells are at different levels depending on the sourcebook, so I included both version sin the listed levels and which book they came from. I also added a comment here and there, a little humor, or a question after a few spell names. For convenience, I listed them by school, then level. *s before a spell are ones I really like and want to use (yes, even fireball). I did notice a theme in that I seem to like Conjuration and Transmutation spells best, with Enchantment and Evocation behind them. Abjuration mostly just as Dispell spells that I like and little more, and Universal has ver few spells period. I skipped Necromancy and Divination as they are schools I flat out don't like. Here's the list, and forgive any redundant spells (my partner has left me little time to make the list, so I put in everything that sounded enjoyable and/or useful. The spells with a (?) after them are ones that I'm unsure of. Maybe they're useful, maybe they're garbage...
Wizard 3.5 Spells I want by school:
Abjuration:
0: (none)
1: Shield, (possibly 'Protection from' spells), Nightshield (SpC)
2: Dispelling Touch
3: Dispel Magic, Energy Vulnerability, ('Magic Circle Against' spells)
4: (none)
5: Spell Theft
6: Greather Dispel Magic, Repulsion
7: Banishment, Spell Turning
8: Chain Dispel, Protection from Spells
9: Unbinding
Conjuration:
0: Caltrops, Acid Splash
1: 'Lesser Orb of' spells, Grease, Mage Armor, Summon Monster
2: Blades of Fire, Cloud of Bewilderment(?), Create Magic Tattoo, Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Ice Knife, Incendiary Slime, Melf's Acid Arrow, Summon Monster 2, Web
3: Acid Breath, Bands of Steel. Caustic Smoke, Improved/Greater Mage Armor, Mass Mage Armor, Melf's Unicorn Arrow, Nauseating Breath, Scattering Trap, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster 3
4: Blast of Flame, Blast of Sand, Boiling Oil, Caustic Mire (mix with fire), Column of Ice, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles (apparently very good), Explosive Rune Field, Hell's Power, Ice Web,
'Orb of' spells, Radiant Fog, Raptor Cloud, Solid Fog, Summon Monster 4, Wall of Sand, Wall of Water (combine with electricity?)
5: Acid Rain, Arc of Lightning, Cloudkill, Daltim's Fiery Tentacles, Lesser Dragon Ally, Greater Dimension Door, Fire and Brimstone, Freezing Fog, Summon Monster 5, Teleport, Toxic Weapon, Viscid
Glob, Vitriolic Sphere, Wall of Ooze (Nom Nom wall), Wall of Stone
6: Acid Fog, Acid Storm, Fire Spiders, Freezing Fog, Mudslide, Shuffle, Spore Cloak, Steal Summoning, Stormwalk, Summon Monster 6, Tunnel Swallow, Wall of Gears, Wall of Iron
7: Choking Cobwebs, Dragon Ally, Incarnum Bladestorm Too weak, tho), Stun Ray, Summon Monster 7, Greater Teleport, Vipergout(?), Waterspout
8: Deadly Lahar, Icy Claw, Incendiary Cloud, Summon Monster 8
9: Abyssal Army, Black Blade of Disaster, Greater Dragon Ally, Gate, Hellish Horde, Obedient Avalanche, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Summon Elemental Monolith, Summon Golem, Summon
Monster 9, Teleportation Circle, Towering Thunderhead
Enchantment:
0: Daze
1: Charm Person, Hypnotism, Inhibit, Power Word Pain, Sleep, Whelm(?)
2: Daze Monster, Mechanus Mind(?), Nybor's Gentle Reminder, Power Word Sicken(?), Rebuke, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Torrent of Tears ("You're fat!")
3: Bothersome Babble (could be fun out of combat), Deep Slumber, Heroism, Hold Person, Inevitable Defeat ("You're gonna die, you know."), Mesmerizing Glare, Miser's Envy (combo with Flaming
Sphere?), Nybor's Mild Admonishment(?), Ray of Dizziness, Suggestion, Warcry(?)
4: Charm Monster, Cone of Euphoria, Crushing Despair, Lesser Geas, Melf's Slumber Arrows, Power Word Distract, Greater Rebuke, Trance of the Verdant Domain, *Vecna Malevolent Whisper
(insta-kill?), Mass Whelm(?)
5: Mass Charm Person, *Dominate Person, Feeblemind(?), Glimpse of Eternity (pretty damaging), Hold Monster, Insidious Suggestion, Mind Fog (soften foes to will save spells?), Power Word
Disable(?), Sleep Mote(?), Symbol of Sleep
6: Dominate Person or Ghost, Endless Slumber, Freezing Glance, Geas/quest, Greater Heroism, Overwhelm, Power Word Nauseate, Remorseless Charm, Mass Suggestion, Symbol of Persuasion
(?), Symbol of Thirst, Transfix (Complete Arcane), Wages of Sin
7: Hiss of Sleep, Mass Hold Person, Insanity(?), Nybor's Stern Reproof (save or die!), Final Rebuke (save or die), Symbol of Stunning, Transfix (Spell Compendium)
8: Antipathy(?), Binding(?), Mass Charm Monster, Demand (make them walk to a symbol spell?), Familial Geas, Maddening Scream, Maddening Whispers, (Nybor's) Wrathful Castigation, Otto's
Irresistible Dance ("Let's do the Time Warp again."), Power Word Petrify(?), Power Word Stun(?), Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy (combo with Symbol spells?)
9: *Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster, Power Word Kill (hate the HP cap, but love the idea of it)
Evocation:
0: Light
1: 'Lesser Orb' spells, Lantern Light, Luminous Gaze, Magic Missile, Persistent Blade, Ray of Flame, Shocking Grasp
2: Aganazzar's Scorcher, Burning Sword, Cloud of Bewilderment, Combust, Darkness, Flaming Sphere, Pressure Sphere (with wall of water?), Ray of Resurgence, Scorch, Scorching Ray, Seeking
Ray, Shatter
3: Blacklight, *Chain Missile, *Fireball (no arguments. I know it sucks, but it's fun), Flashburst, Light of Venya, Lightning Bolt, Manyjaws, Scintillating Sphere, Sound Lance, *Stars of Arvandor (like
Melf's Minute Meteors from 4th Ed.), Wind Wall
4: 'Orb' spells, *Blistering Radiance, *Channeled Pyroburst (up to 100 damage?!?), *Dancing Web, Defenestrating Sphere, Fire Shield (maybe... it's stronger in 4th Ed.), *Force Missiles, Incendiary
Surge (maybe...), Parboil, Searing Exposure, Wall of Fire
5: *Ball Lightning, Dragon Breath, Mass Fire Shield (maybe...), Firebrand, *Greater Fireburst
6: *Chain Lightning (up to 120 damage), *Haze of Smoldering Stone, Lingering Flames, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Ray of Light, *Storm of Fire and Ice (up to 132 damage)
7: Delayed Blast Fireball, Emerald Flame Fist (can stack with other damage?), Scalding Touch, Stored Lightning Bolt, Whirlwind of Teeth
8: Depthsurge, Field of Icy Razors, Lightning Ring, Polar Ray, Sunburst
9: Deadly Sunstroke, *Invoke Magic, Meteor Swarm, Tidal Wave
Illusion:
0: Silent Portal, Unnerving Gaze (good at low levels?)
1: Color Spray(?), Disguise Self, Instant Diversion, Secret Weapon (possibly handy?)
2: Blur, Delusions of Grandeur, Hypnotic Pattern(?), Invisibility, Phantasmal Assailants(?), Phantom Foe(?), Shadow Double(?), Vertigo
3: Cone of Dimness(?), Displacement (sounds handy), Invisibility Sphere, Phantasmal Strangler, Reality Blind(?), Shadow Binding
4: Illusory Pit, Greater Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Conjuration
5: Shadow Evocation
6: Illusory Pit, Mislead
7: Mass Invisibility, Project Image (hate that it leaves the real me vulnerable, tho), Greater Shadow Conjuration
8: Superior Invisibility (Sp. Compendium), Scintillating Pattern(?), Greater Shadow Evocation, Stalking Spell
9: *Shades, Superior Invisibility (Comp. Arcane), Weird
Transmutation:
0: Amanuensis (a must for me), Launch Bolt, Stick
1: Accelerated Movement, Babau Slime, Bestow Wound, Cutting Hand, Ebon Eyes, Expeditious Retreat, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Fist of Stone, Magic Weapon, Raging Flame, Reduce Person,
Scatterspray, Shieldbearer, Spellflower, Weaponshift
2: Alter Self, Bear's Endurance, Belker Claws, Boiling Blood, Brumal Stiffening, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace (initiative boost?), Darkvision, Earthbind or Undeniable Gravity, Earthen Grasp, Lesser
Energy Surge, Enlarge Weapon, Extend Tentacles (combo with E.'s Black Tentacles?), Fortify Metal or Stone, Fox's Cunning, Frost Weapon, Infernal Wound, Razorfangs (combo with werewolf
spells?)
3: Animate Weapon, Arms of Plenty, Bite of the Wererat, Control Darkness and Shadow, Crown of Protection, Deeper Darkvision, Dragonskin, Energy Surge, False Gravity, Fly, Forced Incorporeality,
Halt, Handfang, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Shadow Phase, Shape of the Hellspawned Stalker, Slow, Spell Vulnerability, Stony Grasp, Water Breathing, Weapon of Energy
4: Balor Nimbus, Bite of the Werewolf, Mass Darkvision, Enduring Flight, Fire Stride, Metal Melt, Polymorph, Polymorph Self, Mass Reduce Person, Sandform, Spell Enhancer (?), Stone Shape,
Superior Darkvision
5: Bite of the Wereboar, Dancing Blade (free extra atk per turn), Draconic Might, Draconic Polymorph (?), Dragonsight, Mass Fly, Heart of Fire, Nightstalker's Transformation, Passwall, Greater
Reduce Person, Lesser Spell Matrix, Transmute Stone to Sand, Vulnerability(?)
6: Mass Bear's Endurance, Bite of the Weretiger, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cat's Grace, Chasing Perfection (works on self?), Disintegrate, Lesser Dragonshape, Greater Energy Surge, Fiendform,
Fiendish Quickening, Mordenkainen's Lucubration, Tenser's Transformation
7: Bite of the Werebear, Control Weather, Glass Strike, Reverse Gravity, Spell Matrix, Mass Teleport
8: Blackstaff, Iron Body
9: Dragonshape, Investiture of the Hellfire Engine, Greater Spell Matrix, Time Stop, Transmute Rock to Lava, Undermaster
Universal:
0: (none)
1: (none)
2: (none)
3: (none)
4: Mystic Surge
5: Permanency
6: (none)
7: Arcane Spellsurge, Limited Wish
8: (none)
9: Wish
As for Race, I'd prefer the Lesser Tiefling (so Darkvision won't be necessary), and I always make my characters Chaotic Neutral. What sourcebook is the Lesser Tiefling in. by the way? I've found references to them online, but nothing lists what book they're in. I have Races of Destiny, but it only lists the main tiefling race.
The Lesser Tiefling is in the Player's Guide to Faerun. There's nothing specific to Faerun that limits them; we usually just port them over because honestly, aasimar and tiefling really are underpowered for +1 LA.
In terms of your lists, I would be very cautious without Divination - I know you say you "just don't like it", but without the information it provides, you will be trying to play a class and handicapping it at the same time - Sort of like a fighter who insists on fighting with his fists and in the nude.
Also, if a spell is listed at different levels, take the most recent one. Generally speaking, this means spells in the Spell Compendium (which is almost entirely updated reprints) and PHB2 (which contained novel spells not found elsewhere) take precedence over others. (In face, realistically, core + SpC + PHB2 gives you almost every spell you could ever want, except for a small handful of special effects in niche books.)
Similarly, if a spell comes from a book published prior to the 3.5 core books (2003), you have to exercise EXTREME caution with using it. I notice your search pulled out some 3e spells here - i.e. Polymorph Self, which was rolled into Polymorph in 3.5. Stick to 3.5 books only as a first pass, I would say.
I'll go back and look over the missing spells you mentioned. It's not that I'm solely a "That explosion was sooo Awesome!" type of guy, and admittedly, the list has several redundant spells, but this was a rough first draft of potential spells to choose from and I haven't had the chance to go over the handbooks on here to see what ones I'm missing and why they're so good, as well as the crap ones I have that aren't as good as I think they are (NO! No mentioning Fireball! *grin*) I'll also go back and see what all books I'm referencing and which of the more obscure books I can do without the spells therefrom.
In the meantime, here's a list of possibilities for feats. Searing Spell from Sandstorm gives the Fire Resistance ignoring for my fire spells that I'd love to have, if a DM would allow it.
Feats: Fiery Burst (Comp. Mage), Collegiate Wizard (Comp. Arcane must take at Lv.1!), Enhance Item (Epic Lvl. HB), Fortify Spell (Comp. Arcane), Spell Penetration (PHB1), Greater Spell Penetration (Epic Lvl HB), Epic Spell Penetration (Epic Lvl HB), Bloodline of fire (FR Camp. Setting), Calishite Elementalist: Fire (Races of Faerun), Energy Affinity (Mini HB), Fiery Spell (Sandstorm), Mastery of Ice and Fire (PG to Eberron), *Searing Spell (Sandstorm), Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon), Enervate Spell (Liber Mortis), Empower Spell (PHB1), Enhance Spell (Comp. Arcane), Enlarge Spell (PHB1), Heighten Spell (PHB1), Improved Heighten Spell (Epic Lvl HB), Maximize Spell (PHB1), Quicken Spell (PHB1), Rapid Spell (Comp. Divine), Sculpt Spell (Comp. Arcane), Selective Spell (Shining South), Silent Spell (PHB1), Still Spell (PHB1), Twin Spell (Comp. Arcane), Widen Spell (PHB1).
samcifer wrote:
But True Casting and Assay Spell Resistance eat up some of my precious few spells per day I can cast slots, whereas feats work on multiple spells, don't eat up an action for a turn that could be better used casting a spell to affect enemies, and work on multiple spells, rather than on a single spell, making it take 2 turns to hit a foe with a single attack (unless it's one that hits multiple times on a turn. With the feats, I can avoid losing turns just settting up an attack and just do the attack right away. Even if I put those spells above into a wand or scroll, that's still a turn just to use the item holding the spell, making you wait until your next turn to use the spell you set the enemy up for.
While Searing Spell only works on fire spells, it works basically for free on every fire spell every time you use them, without eating up limited spell space or actions, letting you do more and faster.The Spell Penetration feats can do the same thing for all the other spells. Since my list of spells makes it clear that focusing on specific schools to get more spells per day would take away spells I don't want to lose (the Dispel spells and evocation spells), making the most of every per day use spell slot counts even more for my character. Wands and Staffs can help, true, but only with weaker spells on the wands. I'm also strongly considering the create staff feat in addition to the create wand feat. I've been told that staffs are superior to wands as staffs use the character's level, rather than the level of the item itself the way that scrolls and wands do. That will help some, but that would make me the guy juggling multiple items on the battlefield, which would result in me getting shot as I'm fumbling around for the item containing the correct spell. :P
I'm also going back over my spell list and adding in a few more, including a few from Divination and Necromancy that are listed on the Playing A God handbook thread. I was surprised to see spells on there not relating to dead people. I had thought that necro magic was all about death and ghosts, and I've never really licked dead people very much, so have never been into that kind of magic. Divination has a few useful things, but not much and I'd prefer not going back to doing tarot readings over the phone. Seriously, it was my first job. Great job in the week of and the one before Halloween, but after the second week after, dead silence on my phone.
samcifer wrote:
Slagger_the_Chuul wrote:
NineInchNall wrote:
samcifer wrote:
samcifer wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
It also occurs to me that if you're really desperate for the versatility of shadow magic without the complexity of a shadowcraft mage, you can use Spontaneous Divination (described earlier) and the Uncanny Forethought feat. The last one allows you to convert any spell you've prepared into any spell you've mastered with the Spell Mastery feat - or (if you're willing to accept a -2 penalty on your caster level) into any spell you know. Which for someone with Collegiate Wizard can be somewhat daunting.
If you're truly desperate, there's also the Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve, and Arcane Transfiguration feats, which allow specialists to regain use of forbidden magic. Generally speaking this isn't worth the feat cost though.
Sorry about double-posting, but I've got a simulation running and that means I've got time to think about this instead of work for a bit.
Before I get to why I'm posting, I'll re-iterate: prune that list. You can usually buy a few scrolls every time you go to town, and you'll find a few as loot, but starting out with the expectation of having that library around is going to be excessive. I'd suggest doing it like this:
- Remove everything not from the PHB, PHB2, or Spell Compendium (really, that's more than enough for most mages). This also solves the problem I think you're having, where you're getting reprinted, setting-specific, and older-edition spells on your searches.
- Next, don't sort by school - sort by spell level (so you can more readily see when each spell becomes available). Sorting by school gets you to think in terms of single spells from particular schools, instead of spell combinations.
- Then, decide which of those are "Must Have", which are "Should Have", which are "Should be Nice", and which are "Situational at best". Remember that even with Collegiate Wizard, you only get 6+Int spells at level 1 and 4 spells per level after that for free, which are the ones you're guaranteed to have access to; if you focus on your "must haves" without bogging the list down with "would be nice" options, you'll be pretty satisfied. Remember that every extra one you buy or find will take time to copy into your spellbook, and every spell you individually research will take much much longer to study - you may very well be forcing yourself to spend years locked in your lab instead of out in the field to learn all of those.
- Think long and hard if you really "need" spells from other sources before enabling them.
For reference, a 7th level wizard with Collegiate Wizard and the same Intelligence score (and a +2 Int headband, which is standard fare for wizards of that level) would know all of the 0-level spells plus 35 other spells of assorted levels, and would have 4/6/5/3/2 spell slots (that is, not counting cantrips (the first number), they could cast up to 16 different spells each day, roughly half as many as he knows automatically.
You got used to having just 34 powers in your entire wizard, including all your at-wills/racials/tomes, in 4e (this is roughly equivalent to what the Collegiate Wizard gets, not counting cantrips or any scrolls - even though most of the 3.5 spells are roughly on par with a 4e daily.).
I know learning that you can have more options is an exciting discovery in 3.5, but grabbing over fifteen times as many of them like a kid in a candy store is just asking for a headache (both in the frustration of trying to acquire and manage that library, and in terms of how complex your wizard will be). I'm not joking on the "over 15 times" bit, by the way. A quick count shows there are 527 spells in your list, which is exactly 15.5 times as many powers as your 4e wizard has - and this quick count considered things like " "Orb of" spells" as one instead of five separate spells.
(There's also a minor issue in that you're looking at every spell as if it's a tool for damage. For instance, I see you list Wall of Water as "combine with electricity?", as if it were a buff to make your lightning spells bigger (even though it can't - the spell does what it says it does, and it doesn't interact with electricity at all. If you need a physical basis for this, think of it as distilled water, which doesn't conduct.). The spell itself is actually perfectly fine as a lockdown, control, and (in some cases) kill spell on its own, since it controls enemy movement and consumes enemy actions if the enemies decide to not play by your rules. It's not top-tier but it's all right, even though it'll do diddly squat in terms of hit point damage.)
Anyway.
I'm whipping up sample builds for you using warlock and warmage just to demonstrate what I mean with those. I'm sticking as close as possible to your original themes (including your same base ability scores - racial and level adjustments are different here though). I'm also keeping things as simple as possible (i.e. no weird optimization tricks - I'm leaving the legacy trickster stunt behind) so that the rationale for building them this way should be clear if you follow along.
I need to ask one thing: if your concept can allow for me switching Intelligence and Charisma around (as tieflings in 3.5 have a penalty to Charisma for some reason, and both of these classes require Charisma). I'm assuming not, but the builds will work better if they're switched around. (EDIT: I forgot to mention, the warmage build actually won't work at all unless they're switched. It benefits from Int, but it's centered around Cha. Warlocks, on the flipside, actually don't need any ability all that much, which is kind of nice.)
EDIT: Simulations are done, so I'm stopping for now. Warlock build's done, warmage is about 70% done, but for some reason the forums won't let me post them together (maximum post length exceeded, which is weird considering how ENORMOUS that spell list post is). I'll toss 'em up one at a time once someone else replies; it may give me more time to work on the warmage.
The trouble is finding time to go over the list in detail. It may be several days before I can get the spell list condensed. I need to print out all of the spell descriptions, organize them by effects, then I can elliminate the redundant ones (I approach things from a documentarian-style of analysis most of the time.) I have the list alphabetized by shcool and level with space so I can write notes on the list to help me make my decisions.
If you think this is bad, you should've seen the instruction manuals for all my old NES games. Notes written EVERYWHERE possible in the manuals. They're gone now, lost in a move halfway across the country.
samcifer wrote:
Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:
Captnq wrote:
samcifer wrote:
Actually, Tempest, they nerfed even more of the save or die spells, so it's not a powerup, and definitely went with the 'specific benefits' of Polymorph, so it works a little more reasonably.
People say it got powered up because the caster classes got more benefits by level, instead of having bunches of levels where they got only spells, and because mages/sorcs are now d6 in hit dice, AND they can get a favored class benefit of another Hit Point per level if they choose to.
Also, a lot of the metamagic tricks and PrC's that abused stuff don't apply anymore, and that helps with a lot of stuff.
So, it's reasonably to say, the CLASS CHASSIS got better, but the SPELLS got downgraded some. Still kept in some big abusers, but those are high level/late game stuff, for the most part.
==Aelryinth
It's 'personal flair' not flare (flare is the fire kind of thing), and 'premise', not premis, for your future reference. ;) But you got pyromancer right!!!
==Aelryinth
samcifer wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
To answer the question tho, Tempest, A god-type character with (if possible) fire on the side via Searing Spell feat as one of my feats. I realize that trying to play a 4th Ed. modeled wizard will most likely not be effective at higher levels in the game, so I'm aiming for consistent effectiveness from start to finish, as far as leveling up goes. As for the large spell list, that's more for variety. I still haven't had a chance to condense the list further yet, to narrow down my spells to eliminate ones that are redundant (for example - in general- : two spoells that daze at the same level that are almost identical. It makes no sense and clogs up the spell list, so if there's two spells like this of the same level, then I can shrink the list by dumping one of them).
Tempest_Stormwind wrote: