[size=+1]Welcome to a series of short articles dedicated to sharing optimization concepts and combos from my personal playbook. While not as ground-shaking as my larger projects like the 100^10 Elite Optimization Challenge, Nanobots, the Twice-Betrayer of Shar, etc, I hope you enjoy these Dirty Tricks for what they are -- carefully explored pathways to optimization power.[/size]
Dirty Trick #4: The Nasty Gentlemen
[u]Summary[/u]
[indent]Symbiont's "Share Spell" ability and capability of taking actions allows for the wild synergetic multiplication of many spells' effects.[/indent]
[u]Ingredients[/u]
- Symbionts (creatures) [Magic of Eberron, pg 153-158]
- Cerebral Symbionts (creatures) [Fiend Folio, pg 216-218]
- Fiendish Symbionts (creatures) [Fiend Folio, pg 218-222]
- Impure Prince (prestige class) [Magic of Eberron, pg 73-76]
- Symbiont Master (feat) [Magic of Eberron, pg 51]
- Spontaneous Summoner (feat) [Complete Divine, pg 85]
[u]The Trick[/u]
Symbionts are handy. Err, "tentacle-y." They're entirely portable, have few, if any, formal limitations on the amount that can bond with a single host, and provide a host of minor benefits to careful users, including minor stat boosts, increased hit points, and spell-like abilities. Nice, but hardly impressive.
Now let's go back to an often-overlooked aspect of symbionts: each symbiont has the "symbiont" subtype. Old news. Now add this: the symbiont subtype includes the "Share Spells" ability. Huh, has potential. Let's throw in the fact that this Share Spells ability is better than the familiar ability by the same name AND you can have as many of these buggers as you can find/buy/etc. Getting somewhere. Next, realize that a good portion of the symbionts retain their ability to take independent (though directed) actions, including attacks. Neat, now only if they could do something with all of these actions. Enter spellcasting.
There is a host of powerful spells which give a character some capability which requires action to activate. These spells are shared with all of a character's symbionts, who can use their own actions (attacks, move actions, full-round-actions, standard actions, swift actions, etc) to gain offensive, defensive, or general-utility benefit. The result is that a single casting of a spell intended to be used only once a round can be multiplied hundreds of times over.
[u]The Possibilities[/u]
It keeps getting better.
[u]Obtaining Symbionts:[/u]
Amazingly easy to do. As Magic of Eberron suggests, players can essentially consider symbionts as treasure for the purpose of wealth calculation. The base prices range from 1,000 to 8,000 gp, reasonably accessible at all levels. For the more economically-minded or particularly outrageous symbiont-using gentleperson, the Impure Prince prestige class allows you to lure symbionts for only 100 gp a pop. If a Princely character is willing to spend all of their cash on becoming a tentacle monster, this translates to 7,600 symbionts by level 20.
Alternately, a riskier manuever would be to Polymorph any Object objects or followers into symbionts for an additional boost in your ranks. Dispelling/disjunctioning would be a real risk, but until then, the sky's the limit.
Gaining Benefit (boring title, crazy implications)
The reason for the title of this Dirty Trick comes from the mental image of a character truly taking advantage of its implications: a perfectly sophisticated and dignified-looking spellcaster who erupts into a mass of churning tentacles, grasping claws, spikes, spewing gouts of fire and brimstone, and striking with uncanny potency at a moment's notice.
Imagery aside, the best spells to pick for this trick are the ones which have a range of "Personal" and/or a target of "You." These spells are the ones easiest to share with your hundreds of glorified tapeworm buddies, and even better, are easily persistified through the usual metamagic routes. Out of this broad category, go for spells which add natural attacks, enable action-activated ranged abilities, enhance existing attack modes, or have a limited number of times which each individual "you" can use the spell. Alternately, if you're not concerned with repeatability, non-personal-range spells are also permitted and can be shared just as easily, if not for all day long.
Remember kids, the surgeon general says that playing with symbionts can be hazardous to your health, so stock up on ability-damage immunity, or at least make certain to befriend at least one divine spellcaster with a bucketfull of restoration handy. Sheltered Vitality from Libris Mortis, the Restoration and Heal chains, Construct Essence, and miscellaneous class/creature abilities are all WotC-approved methods of safe symbiosis.
I've compiled a basic list of good spells to consider below, but I'm wide open for any other options. Remember that if a spell produces negative side-effects (such as limiting spellcasting), you can always choose to have the spell affect your symbionts and not your Nasty Gentleman himself. This makes Nightstalker's Transformation, Tenser's Transformation, and Mental Pinnacle all excellent choices to produce a hyperdeadly, multi-talented mass of options.
Symbiont Synergetic Spells
Ranged Awesome Spells:
- Dragon Breath (Wiz, Clr) [the Complete Divine version]
- Righteous Glare (Wiz, Clr)
- Lightning Ring (Wiz)
- Undermaster (Wiz, Druid)
- Nimbus of Light (Clr)
- Darkfire (Clr)
- Skull Eyes (Initiate of Cyric)
- Holy Star (Initiate of Mystra)
- Stormrage (Clr, Druid)
- Produce Flame (Druid)
- Blinding Beauty (Druid, Clr)
- Unearthly Beauty (Druid)
- Cast in Stone (Druid)
Melee-Based Spells:
- Fist of Stone (Wiz)
- Flame Dagger (Wiz)
- Claw of Darkness (Wiz)
- Gutsnake (Wiz)
- Body Blades (Clr)
- Black Talon (Initiate of Cyric)
- Death Dragon (Clr)
- Snakebite (Druid)
- Spore Cloak (Druid)
- Toothed Tentacle (Wiz)
- Venomfire (Clr, Druid)
Meta-Enhancements:
- Critical Strike (Wiz)
- Grave Strike (Wiz, Clr)
- Vine Strike (Druid)
- Nightstalker's Transformation (Wiz)
- Mental Pinnacle (Wiz)
- Bladeweave (Wiz)
- Wraithstrike (Wiz)
- Tenser's Transformation (Wiz)
- Divine Favor (Clr)
- War Cry (Bard)
- Kiss of the Vampire (Wiz)
- Improvisation (Bard)
- Divine Sacrifice (Paladin)
- Swift Haste
- Touch of Jorasco (Clr)
- Dispel Evil/Good/Law/Chaos (Clr)
- Arms of Plenty (Wiz)
Sample Builds
The Arcane Nasty Gentleman: Wizard 5/Incantrix 10/Impure Prince 5
This chap sneaks into Impure Prince using Extra Spell to gain Summon Nature's Ally, then Spontaneous Summoner to qualify for Gatekeeper Initiate, the final pre-req. Impure Prince costs a single level of casting progression, but having top-notch metamagic and cheap symbionts is worth the dip.
The Unnatural Gentleman: Druid 14/Master of Radiance 1/Impure Prince 5
Venomfire. Extra Spell: Divine Power. Divine Metamagic. Energy Admixture and Twin. The Tentacle Whip symbiont has a built-in poison attack. 76d6 per attack times 4 attacks per tentacle times 7,600 tentacles. We're averaging 8 million damage a round, and that's not even optimized.
The Double-Aberrent-Ironic Gentleman:
Psychic Warrior 5/Ranger 1/Beholder Mage 1/Impure Prince 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 6
Lotsa spell options. Lotsa self-hatred. Lotsa awesome.
FAQ
Q: Oh. Em. Eff. Gee. 8 million damage a round. At very least.
A: Damn straight.
Q: Thousands of tentacles? That's just nasty.
A: I know, I know. Don't blame me, blame Keith Baker. And maybe anime.
Q: Um. What about BoB Cloning with this? Or Nanotech?
A: You don't even want to get me started... :D
Q: But doesn't the Impure Prince's "Lure Symbiont" ability limit a character to one symbiont at a time?
A: Nope. The ability specifies that you can obtain a new symbiont whenever your old one "gets killed or lost." It says nothing about your old one staying dead or lost. Thus, a suitably nasty gentleman can kill or maze his original symbiont, only to raise or retrieve the little guy after obtaining a new friend to play with.
Q: What if all of your symbionts don't want to do what you tell them? Wouldn't you need some way to control them to prevent continually having to make Will saves to keep doing the things you want to do?
A: Yep. Gotta keep them in line somehow, unless you're playing a LE Aberration-minded truly Ungentle Nastyman. Here are some good methods of symbiont-taming:
- In-Character Role-Playing Jibber-Jabber
- Necrotic Tumor
- Geas/Quest and Lesser Geas
- Planar Ally (Lesser, Standard, Greater)
- Planar Binding (Lesser, Standard, Greater)
- Custom Summoning Variant + Halaster's Fetch
- Polymorph / Polymorph any Object
- Undead Control (Rebuking, Spell-Based Control, Direct Raising)
The very last one is new. I noticed that the Zombie and Skeleton templates allow raised creatures to keep their old subtypes. Therefore, the most easily available undead symbionts retain the all-important Share Spells ability. So, lure/purchase a symbiont, kill it, and raise it as a loyal undead minion. Combined with General of Undeath and Undead Lieutenant, being a Nasty Necromancer Gentleman has never been better!
Now, if the Share Spells ability could work for Psionics too due to overlap, that opens up a few options, especially the always-impressive Form of Doom power. You might be able to argue this further with the presence of the psionic symbionts in the FF.
One problem I see though is with the wording of the Impure Prince's Lure Symbiont ability. This is in the beginning of the second paragraph:
If this symbiont is lost or killed, you can gain another one using the same method.
The way that I read this, you only get the 100 gp cost as a one-time discount until you are no longer in possession of your symbiont gained due to the ability.
Problem solved!
Also, would Polymorph be a good one to have as well?
I'll look for more spells later tonight when I get home from work.
Here are a few other interesting ideas:
Mental Pinnacle (Sorc/Wiz 6, Expanded Psionics Handbook) - let your swarm of symbiots mentally thrust, whip, blast, and crush your enemies. Persistable.
Dirge (Bard 6, Spell Compendium) - Save or 2 STR and 2 DEX damage to all enemies within 50'. Persistable.
More will come as I think of them (and as I flip through my new copy of the Spell Compendium. Excellent stuff in there
)I'd seriously advise becomming immune to ability damage in order to use this build effectively, since attaching a bazillion symbionts will take forever without it.
Restoration would work too, but just becomming immune would be better.
Also, would Polymorph be a good one to have as well?
Only if you don't mind a thousand trolls comming into existence inside your belly. For some reason I don't think that'd be a very pretty picture. Besides, they'd lose the symbiont subtype and therefore lose share spells, and one could argue they then lose the benefit of the shared spell.
Polymorph, unfortunately, is straight out unusable. The symbionts need to retain their symbiont subtype to maintain the Share Spells ability which makes this trick so dirty.
SoulGamit: You're right, I totally forgot to type in my section on ability damage immunity into the original post. I'll add that right now.
Would the effects of multiple Ring of Blades spells stack? Or End to Strife for that matter?
Ring of Blades should work, having a target of 'You' and extending to 5ft around yourself. This effectively makes you a magical blender. (1d6 +10 damage for you and every symbiont.)
I don't think End to Strife works. It creates an Area, meaning it doesn't have a target of 'You' and I'm not sure that it counts as being cast on yourself. Assuming that I'm interpreting this wrong and it does, anyone who decided to attack anything would be vaporized.
Also, would Polymorph be a good one to have as well?
Wizard: Alright, here we go. The wizard Polymorphs into a troll.
Mass of Symbionts: Are now a mass of trolls clutched onto another troll.
Nearby Fighter: Glances at the mound of trolls. Ouch.
I'd suggest polymorphing into something small or something with regeneration to survive the weight.
Alright, on a more serious note, layering a ton of incorporeal symbionts on you could prevent things from weighting you down too much and also allow you to take advantage of the +2 hp per symbiont bonus from Symbiont Mastery.
Now, I think you can get even better at this with MoI, the great enabler book. First off, I'm not sure how spell sharing and spell-soulmeld transparency work, but if you can share soulmelds with your symbionts, stuff's going to get more ridiculous than it already is.
More importantly, MoI's great psi-sharing power Soul Crystal gives you a crapload of options. All those psibuffs for your symbionts to share. Plus, if you care little for Psionic's dignity, start abusing Affinity Field and Synchronicity. I must chuckle the idea of you and all your symbionts getting a dozen extra standard actions a round and using them to make Venomfire addled attacks. Shall we start a Symbio-Affinity Dojo thread for mastering crazy powerful symbiont techniques? (I say dojo instead of laboratory because this is too anime-esque. "Acid Tentacle Million Demon Finisher Crush!" *world falls apart*)
Oh, I'd advise the necropolotin template + the druid varient from UA that gives favored enemy + Master of Radience + Impure Prince.
Sure you lose wildshape, but your strong enough without it anyways.
You should also state how you get past that one interpritation of impure prince to gain a lot of symbionts.
for the link:D
(or bad news if your a dm and you made a horrible horrible mistake.
Apocalypse from the sky has a range of...
Personal
So lets see 76000d6 points of Fire, Acid, or Sonic Damage to (at 20) 200 Mile radius area. or 125,663.7 square miles... Take that random country.
To put it into perspective is somewhere around this in area
'Cept for this: LordofProcrastination, you are a genius.
Good news is there are a couple of minor artifacts that are realativly easy to aquire. (made by demons or devils)
Easier still: Dweomerkeeper and their "ignore components" ability. :D
Also: this is my 1337th post. I would have made it to the UBER character thread, but I didn't have anything interesting to say. :D
--Impeesa--
ESCHEW MATERIALS [GENERAL]
Benefit: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.
Now i could argue that technically priceless isn't the same as no cost, but since there is no gp value whatsoever.....
i'm going to go with noncost instead of no cost for artifacts.
That aside... This is sick. Sick, sick, sick. And, indeed, the horrible things you can come up with thanks to this make it very anime. Ugh. I'm going to have nightmares thanks to you. Congratulations. :raincloud
According to CustServ, Extra Spell only allows you to take spells already on your class spell list, which pretty much kills this. Of course, you'll probably take that with a massive grain of salt or ignore it altogether, but that's the closest I've heard as far as an official ruling on the feat.
How in the hell does that even come close to killing this? Even if you're restricted to one spell list (like Wizard), this is still insane. If you're talking about using Extra Spell: SNA in the wizard version to qualify for the PrC, I'm sure there is a domain somewhere that you can take Arcane Disciple with to get it instead.
Sadly, I've already looked into the Share Soulmeld feat from Magic of Incarnum, and it doesn't extend its benefits to symbionts. Power Crystal does present some meaningful opportunities, though, as it fills in the psionic blank for "personal" powers.
You guessed it, PhaedrusXY -- the Nasty Gentlemen originated as a BBEG idea, and evolved into something more universally frightening.
SoulGamit, I'm not quite certain how much Necropolitan adds to the druid build, but I'm all ears for an explanation.
Apocalypse from the Sky is a terrible, terrible spell, from a terribly broken 3.0 book, with a functionally DM-reliant material component. In other words, while I'm aiming to keep the Dirty Tricks 3.5, if it floats your boat (or rather, sinks your city, Lokiyn), go for it.
MechaboyDos: CustServ = Zero Street Cred around these parts. If your DM is hard on literal readings of Extra Spell, there are plenty of options within class lists to make this work. Or be a Recaster. Or an Artificer. This trick in no way hinges on a single spell, and even if it did, that wouldn't be a problem.
In retrospect, druid isn't best for this build. Cleric with one level of ranger is a lot better, and loses the same number of caster levels.
The only way that comes to mind for me is the use of the Dread Necromancer's familiar to grab a Ghostly Visage, and get more using Extra Familiar.
If I can find a working method, I have a quite nasty build idea drifting around in my head.
Where are you getting "realize that a good portion of the symbionts retain their ability to take independent (though directed) actions, including attacks." from? At least in the Symbiots you can get with Impure Prince nowhere in thier statistics does it mention they may take an accuall action while attached. Only a few, like the Tentacle Whip, mention being able to take a single independant attack.
I'm also not sure how any of these symbiots are casting spells with thier low mental ability scores, many have an Int 5 and Wis 8. Many of them also cannot speak or have the ability to preform somatic components.
Finally, this is kind of a nit-pick one, but the Lure Symbiont ability would require 13.3 years of uninterupted work and the 100gp materials cost would mean a few less symbiots. The Lure Symbiont ability also states that "you can lure a symbiont to yourself" and "If [and only if] this symbiont is lost or killed, you can gain a new one using the same method" I only add the brackets because it is very clear that they put that clause in to prevent aquiring symbiots in this manner, since if you do not assume that there is no purpose to the statement.
Is there any way to take advantage of the fact that the Share Spells ability works both ways (as in, from host to symbiont, but also from symbiont to host)?
It seems wierd that they would add that part since most symbionts can't actually cast spells.
AlienFromBeyond: Also, saying that they take action on the host's initiative organizes WHEN they take action (i.e. fixing their place in the initiative), but does not deprieve them of the ability to act. Summons and other spell-created creatures often act on the caster's turn, and they clearly retain the ability to act and attack.
I'd seriously advise becomming immune to ability damage in order to use this build effectively, since attaching a bazillion symbionts will take forever without it.
Restoration would work too, but just becomming immune would be better.
I don't think being immune would work at all. If you are immune to ability damage... the symbiont can't feed off of you. Certainly, the immunity is going to block it from deriving the life energy it needs. Better sack up and invest in some Restoration. Unless you can find someone who will travel with your maggotty self...
I don't think being immune would work at all. If you are immune to ability damage... the symbiont can't feed off of you. Certainly, the immunity is going to block it from deriving the life energy it needs.
Sigh. The feeding aspect of ability-damage is entirely non-mechanical and irrelevant. If it helps your imagination, you can visualize immunity to ability damage as an instantaneous, supernatural regenerative quality that supplies much more vital energy than the symbionts could ever need.
All of the MoE symbionts also specifically state that they do not make any attacks of thier own while attached. And if they had actions they would be able to do things like attack or cast spells, which is why it specifically states they cannot.
Um. Not true. Look at the Breed Leech and the Crawling Gauntlet, who both have no such limitations. The Spell Wurm does lose spellcasting, but retains everything else. The Eberron Campaign Setting ones are likewise individually differentiated.
Sigh. The feeding aspect of ability-damage is entirely non-mechanical and irrelevant. If it helps your imagination, you can visualize immunity to ability damage as an instantaneous, supernatural regenerative quality
Why the sighing, LoP? Was it really that terrible a question?
The ability damage and immunity issue isn't irrelevant. Immunity means immunity - not fast healing. There's a distinction. If I have a CON of 1, even with fast healing, losing 1 point of CON knocks me to 0, no matter how fast I heal. But if your healing is so instantaneous that this never happens, then the symbiont couldn't possibly have drawn out enough to be sustained.
And that issue exists for a reason. Symbionts can't attach to undead or constructs, because they cannot feed from them - cannot draw out life energy. There is no actual symbiosis. Just a PC parasite leeching off his tiny symbionts.
Just go with the restoration. At this point, it's a drop in the fiscal bucket for your PC.
My response to the issue is simple: there is still no mechanical reason that a host can't have immunity to ability damage. Furthermore, as silly as it sounds, there is no limitation on the type of creature that a symbiont can connect with.
My little flavor-explanation above was a sheerly non-mechanical response to a non-mechanical issue. Please don't take it as an attempt at rules-rationalization.
I won't give up the issue without solid textual evidence to the contrary. It's not so much a matter of the character losing power as it is a matter of maintaining rules-solvency for a well-supported sub-trick option.
Well, RadicalTaoist, I must say that a considerable amount of Nano-Symbio-Affinity-Clone is destined to take place,
I should hope so. I plan to spearhead it.
for austerity has little place in the Dirty Tricks.
You ain't kidding.:P
That said, for the sake of knowledge-consolidation, I'd prefer that such discussions happen in this thread. That's what it's here for, after all. Let's set a preliminary goal of "most damage in a round."
*nods* I'll get right on it.
Apocalypse from the Sky is a terrible, terrible spell, from a terribly broken 3.0 book, with a functionally DM-reliant material component. In other words, while I'm aiming to keep the Dirty Tricks 3.5, if it floats your boat (or rather, sinks your city, Lokiyn), go for it.
What can i say, The BoVD is like a big nasty scab. Its Not pretty to look at and its bothersome, but it feals oh so good to pick at it, and you can't help it sometimes.
+ It make a great plot device if the bbeg is casting it.
Ramp it up with symbiotic amplifiers and at minimum you're making a 1.4 mile deep hole if you fail to stop him, average depth of crater 5 miles.
I think thats the biggest problem with the book. It was essentially designed for villian NPC's not PC's So the balance is off.
Of course just to be goofy you could be evil and Umd a Sanctify the wicked token on yourself. Which is shared. which causes you and all of your symbiots to be trapped for a year, after which you then all gain the Sanctified template.
(personally i'd snag the Fiendish familiar for this, even though it has listed spot to occupy that gives you space for six of them, Thats Six free spells known per level, as well as a +12 to your casting ability scores for the purposes of determining bonus spells.), Toss on a soul tick for auto empower of all spells with the death or evil descriptor or using negative energy in any way without editing the spell level or casting time.
And it pulls me back in....
note that the Apocolypse from the sky is [evil]
Raising the above numbers to 76000d6*1.5 Avg 399,000 hp of damage to all creature and objects to a depth of about 7.5 miles on average.
What can i say out of all the spell i'll never get to use it's my favorite ;)
I know some are Undead, and at least one is an Incorporeal Undead.
What if we used Planar Binding, Spirit Binding, or Shadow Conjuration Emulated Planar Binding, to aquire these buggers?
My choice for dealing with the ability damage is the Sacred Vitality feat.
Are any of these things outsiders?
I know some are Undead, and at least one is an Incorporeal Undead.
What if we used Planar Binding, Spirit Binding, or Shadow Conjuration Emulated Planar Binding, to aquire these buggers?
My choice for dealing with the ability damage is the Sacred Vitality feat.
Yes, several of the ones in the Fiend Folio are outsiders. Getting them via Planar Binding was something I'd considered, also.
That day, Cyre became the Mournland.
*nods* I'll get right on it.
The one thing I would encourage Nano-Symbio-Affinity-Clone-Technicians to pay attention to would be NOT making an infinite combination out of this. The C.O. Boards have plenty of infinite-damage tricks, so it would be more fruitful to add a new, finite, record for people to gape at.
Besides, it's high time spellcasters took back the "most damage" record from that hulking brute of a hurler.
Besides, it's high time spellcasters took back the "most damage" record from that hulking brute of a hurler.
You weren't paying attention? Cvazi's final Nano-Affinity Bomb smoked the Hurler by two digits. The only issue was the powerstones of Affinity Field, which could be replaced by Soul Crystals of Affinity Field (and at that point, Bestow Power abuse to fill them all).
Notice that the Dread Necromancer gets a familiar at level 7.
Notice also, that one of the possiblities for said familiar is a Ghostly Visage, an incorporeal undead symbiont found in the FF.
Somewhere or another there's the Extra Familiar feat too. I believe it might have been in a dragon, but if a feat/ability similar to that is located in a more 'stable' rules book, please inform me of it.
Basically, you grab as many of these Visages as you can in addition to your normal entourage of symbionts. Being incorporeal, they should be able to stack on top of each other over your head.
Now, for every one of these Visages, you get +2 hp, and the very nice Gaze of Terror ability. Yes, the rather pitiful DC 13 save sucks, but with several visages running at once, at least some of your opponents will be hit with the effect of being paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. I don't believe this stacks, but if someone else can prove me wrong, this will get much worse. If it doesn't stack and they hit multiple times, you still have more possibilites for a 4-round paralyzation. The funny thing is that I don't see the ability being mentioned as either a fear effect or a mind-effecting ability either.
Oh, and the paralyzation description from the SRD:
Show
A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares.
Would symbionts raised as undead still have symbiont abilities.
Undead spellstitched symbionts would rock.
Could polymorph be used on an existing symbiont to change it into another type of symbiont.
Better still PAO can turn any creature into any symbiont.
Nothing says evil mastermind than wearing a suit of armour which calls itself Jozan
Can you provide a list of which symbiotes would be most optimized to use? (I have not recieved Magic of Eberron yet so I cannot comment on the class or the symbiotes [except that I glanced at them quickly in a book store]).
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The only way that comes to mind for me is the use of the Dread Necromancer's familiar to grab a Ghostly Visage, and get more using Extra Familiar.
That would be quite cool to get a couple. You would 4~5 more visages through Extra Familiar (feats: 9, 12, 15, 18, 20 [depending of if you want to maximize cheesyness], but 4 or 5 free gaze attacks per round would be awesome.
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A question comes to mind.. can a familiar get a symbiote? If so, then the same trick can be done along side your tentacle-y goodness.
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As for a spell that I think would be good to share among all your familiars and symbiotes is Eyebite.. it's almost too messed up to think about doing :D
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Having an undead spellstiched symbiote would indeed be sweet Nazzareth, but it would definately be a pain to do that to each and every one of your symbiotes... plus they can be turned and that wouldn't be fun (imagining your symbiotes forcing you backwards and dragging you on the ground running from the cleric :D)
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One more thing, where did you get the number 76,000 from LoP? Is that the actual limit of symbiotes that you can place on your character or is that just a number that you chose to define a finite amount?
As for undead symbionts, I believe it would depend on the method of revivification, because they would have to maintain their "symbiont" subtype. If a given undead template allows creatures to keep their subtypes (perhaps as "augmented"), then it's definitely a go. The
The limitation will remain how many one can afford/produce. I know that Polymorph any Object technically unlimits the amount someone can have, but I'm trying hard not to make this trick nigh-infinite. The number 7,600 came from dividing the average 20th level wealth of a character (760,000) by the Impure Prince's 100gp cost per symbiont lured.
Eyebite, like its even-better-counterpart from Frostburn, Freezing Glance, is nice, but it's semantically up in the air whether the spell is really cast "on" the Nasty Gentleman, the prime criterion for sharing. Technically, both spells' "target" entry refers to the enemies on the unpleasant end of the spell, making the argument an uphill battle at best. Since the flavor of these spells is heavily one of character-originating effects, it's worth discussing with a DM, but tough to guarantee by mechanics alone.
When I have time, I'll pull together a list of preferred symbionts. For most characters, it will depend on your Nasty Gentleman's available cash, whether they have levels in Impure Prince, and their available spells for enhancement.
I would like to see where those spells come from, however.
Familiars with symbionts. Good idea.
Just clarifying here, but I meant that the Ghostly Visage is the Dread Necromancer's familiar. I wasn't sure from what you said if you got that from what I was saying or not. I've always been bad at clarifying/explaining things, so it'd be nothing new for me.
Essentially though, its at least one extra symbiont to add to your collection for free, more if you add Extra Familiar or some similiar ability to the mix (should one exist).
Just clarifying here, but I meant that the Ghostly Visage is the Dread Necromancer's familiar. I wasn't sure from what you said if you got that from what I was saying or not. I've always been bad at clarifying/explaining things, so it'd be nothing new for me.
Essentially though, its at least one extra symbiont to add to your collection for free, more if you add Extra Familiar or some similiar ability to the mix (should one exist).
To clarify, my response was mostly addressing Ed-Zero's set of comments. I would very much like to comment in detail on your Dread Necromancer build, but I unfortunately lack Heroes of Horror from my collection. [Rumination]Perhaps I should start a "Help LoP Buy and then Break XYZ Book" fund...[/Rumination]
In general, gold-cost-less symbionts, even a few, could be a boon, especially for low-level characters with limited resources. I must say, coup de grace'ing an opponent who failed an irresistable succession of DC 13 saves has a deliciously dirty feel to it.
Beware of the WIFE symbiont.
Do not try to remove one without using a remove curse spell otherwise it might obtain the dreaded CRAZIED EX template.
Cerebral Symbionts:
Cerebral Hood - 60 ft. cone (DC 17 save) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds
Down side: take 1 point of int
good side: no need to eat or breathe, immune to gases
Mind Leech - mind blast 60 ft. cone (DC 17) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds
Down side: takes the place of amulet, each time you use a ability you take 1 point of int damage.
good side: at will: charm monster, detect thoughts, dominate person and suggestion.
side note: using dominate person deals 2 int damage to you and using detect thoughts deals no ability damage to you.
Psionic Sinew - this is the best cerebral Symbiont
Down side: Using it's Claws of the Bear ability deals 1 point of Dex to you
good side: +4 Strength & +4 Inertial Armor These effects are permanently on [as long as they are attached of course] (both of these deal you no ability damage, so just get a bunch of psionic Sinews, say 1000, for a easy 4000 bonus to your strength.. sound good?)
Fiendish Symbionts:
Down Side: you better not be good alignment.. Chaotic Neutral is usually acceptable, (in generic non-evil campaigns) just make sure you can easily make a DC 15 check everyday or you'll be doing a lot of evil
Fiendish Familiar:
Good side - Gain a new spell every level (doesn't specify that it has to be from your list!). Also, gain a +2 to your main spellcasting related ability
Down side: None (aside from the standard badness of all fiendish symbionts)
Gutworm:
Goodside: +2 to con and ability to rage (identical to barbarians rage, lasts 4 rounds) - This is just awesome.. gaining a couple thousand hit points and being able to rage like no one's business, your also not fatigued afterwords! Nice! Also, the gutworm can negate any poison in your system 1/day
Soul Tick:
Good side: spells with death/evil & spells that use negative energy are auto-empowered without increasing the level of the spell.
Impede Magic - can stop good magic in it's tracks!
Aura: Get a Protection from Good or Protection from chaos constantly (or both if you have 2... more than 2 aren't really needed as they give you no other bonus)
Down side: Vulnerable to Smite and drain 1 point of Con/day
Finally, Ghostly Visage:
Good Side: Gaze attack at will or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds, Incorporeal and permanent Mind Blank? Yes please!
Notes:
Obviously to use these you'd need to find a way to be immune to Int, Dex & Con damage to use all of these.
As I stated before, the best symbionts are: Mind Leech - for permanent Detect thoughts (only need 1)
Psionic Sinew - +4 strength & +4 armor (per symbiont, so load up a couple hundred..)
Fiendish Familiar - +2 to spellcasting ability score & a new spell every level that doesn't have to be on your list (good in multiples)
Gutworm - +2 to con and the ability to rage with no fatigue afterword
Ghostly Visage - Paralyzing gaze attacks are always nice.
This is what I got from the Fiend Folio, hopefully MoE comes in soon and I can do a write-up on what symbionts I think are good in there too.
Ghostly Visage does seem to be the best though, as all it does is reside inside of you incorporeally, only revealing itself if it uses the gaze attack, which doesn't have to appear over one's one face. Could you imagine a person covered in horrifying faces?
Psionic Sinew grants an enhancement bonus to strength, so it doesn't stack. Gutworm provides an inherent bonus to constitution, so it doesn't stack either. Fiendish Familiar also has a specific limit set for it (I think it's 5 total, 1 on each hand, 1 on the chest, and 1 on each shoulder)
Six actually you can have on on your back as well, + the 6 free spells known per level (which works for sorcs as well as it references a sorc option that lets them increase spells known)
Now i doubt this is the case but wouldn't it be fun if multiple soul ticks each got an empower on the spells?
If so, yeah they dont stack, but they do over lay each other, with one kicking in as the other is drained...
Another question, Soul Tick and Cereberal Hood both do Int damage/drain.
Which is it, damage or drain and when do you take it?
If it is during a limited amount of time, it will be easier to counter.
The natural combo with this trick is the Mother Cyst feat.
Not only is it Symbiot of sorts, it can be used to control the symbiots(Necrotic Domination,Necrotic Tumor).
A cleric filled with Controled Ghostly visages also seems neat.
They're not quite what you were asking for, ronyon, but snakebite (Drd, MoF) and spore cloak (Drd, RoF) deal Constitution damage. One of my favorites is Kiss of the Vampire (Wiz, Libris Mortis), which makes each of your symbionts deal 1d4 negative levels per hit. Nasty stuff.
As for the damage/drain question, it's ability damage that these things deal. The soul tick deals 1 Con damage per day, while the cerebral hood deals 1 Int damage a day plus 1 Int damage every time it uses its Mind Blast ability.
The Necrotic series in Libris Mortis is a great option to consider, especially for an additional layer of unpleasantness. Necrotic dominate won't work since it requires a humanoid target, but necrotic tumor looks like a solid way of keeping one's symbionts under control. Necrotic eruption could also be useful in a Nano-Symbio-Affinity-Clone-Tech-Bomb, since it deals damage to the surroundings as well and may thus be a good final-trigger spell to combine with death throes (Planar Handbook).
There's a few 'Carapace Symbionts', which function as a form of armor. Of the various types there, the one that strikes me as the most useful is the Backwatcher Carapace, which allows for Uncanny Dodge, avoidance of flanking, and the ability to gain Dodge against opponents after they attack you, an ability that would work well with Elusive Target.
Then, we come to the other symbionts. The Mnemonicus would be a beautiful thing if stacked on a caster, as you are allowed to recall nine spell levels each day simply by having one stuck to you, something that could get rediculous if several more were added. The Wriggler is nice too, as it adds four tentacle attacks when attached. This, combined with the other weirdness here, makes me want to come up with a new word for describing this build. How about 'spectentacular'?
Some of the other symbionts there are interested, but these ones jump out at me as being the most useful of the ones there. Now, the only problem would be the process of gaining access to them, seeing as you can't get them with Half-Blood/Impure Prince. I remember someone mentioning a spell that could be used to call symbionts (was it a use of Gate?), but no method comes to mind for me.
Actually, I got to thinking on that problem of accessing Symbionts that are outside the reach of the Half-Blood/Prince abilties. Taking a look again at various symbionts, I see that they usually have a CR of 2 or less. Now, if you were allowed some of those variant Summon Monster lists, you could possibly add the symbionts to a custom list of your own. The page does provide a precident after all.
Sample themes include alignment (law, chaos, good, or evil), base creature type (such as animal, elemental, fey, or outsider), creature subtype (such as fire or shapechanger), and template (such as celestial or fiendish).
So, you grab various summons with the Symbiont subtype.
But what good is this then? You just have some temporary Symbionts for now and then when you're willing to spend a Summon Monster for them, right?
That's where this little gem in City of Splendors: Waterdeep comes in. On page 153, the Halaster's Fetch series of spells begin to make their appearance. They function as Summon Monster spells of lower level, meaning they draw from your custom list. The great thing for us, though, is that the summons do not dissapear when the spell is over, though they fall out of your control.
So, does this work? Anyone have any other ideas how more symbionts could be gathered?
In other news, UnHoly Crap! General of Undeath, from the Player's Guide to Faerun, is a Personal-range spell. It grants the ability to control a greater amount of dead, to the ring of Caster Level times Five. So, by twentieth level, without any serious caster-level optimization, your symbionts can control least 100 HD of undead each. Use the Fell Animate metamagic feat from Libris Mortis onto your assorted symbiont enhancing spells, and you'll be raising and controlling undead on an entirely new scale.
Toss in affinity field, Destructive Retribution, death throes, and some Three Million Forty Thousand 1/8 HD creatures to slaughter and raise, and your Nasty Gentleman can be well on the way to his very own dirty bomb/army.
I'll look for some more uses of this guy, he has so much he can do it's just plain amazing.
Furthermore, I consider that the Lure Symbiont class ability specifically refers to a symbiont, and never refers to the pural that it can only provide a single simbiont. Lost means lost, not convienently misplaced until I can munchkin something out of the situation.
Furthermore, I consider that the Lure Symbiont class ability specifically refers to a symbiont, and never refers to the pural that it can only provide a single simbiont. Lost means lost, not convienently misplaced until I can munchkin something out of the situation.
Sorry about dealing with these in reverse, but I already asked something similar on the third post or so. Look at the ability again:
If this symbiont is lost or killed, you can gain another one using the same method.
LoP found a solution to this right after I asked; you simply get the called symbiont killed and then get another. After you have as much as you want/need, you bring them back with cheap revives.
Personally, I'd have someone other than you or a party member kill them, so that the symbionts don't get angry with you. If you wanted to build their trust and also get a refund in the process, you seek out and kill the guy you hired using the symbionts.
Even then, there are other methods of accessing symbionts, such as Planar Ally/Binding, PaO, and the custom summoning list method which I detailed here.
Remember all symbiotes have and Ego score. While Impure Prince may allow you to lure one without conflict, it by no means implies that such a conflict cannot occur. Even if each symbiote only has an ego of 1, a roll of 1 on a save is always failure, meaning with such a potential abundance of symbiotes, being dominated by one is assured if conflict occurs.
Alright, I see a few things that could be done to avoid or avert conflict. The Impure Prince's ability mentions that the symbiont will bond to you; if someone else tries to bond with it, it will initate conflicts until it gets free. This implies that the symbiont specifically desires you. Something links it to you that is more important than the need for nourishment, a huge driving force for a symbiont. Otherwise, it could simply hop over to another body and grab the same energy there.
If one symbiont takes you over, what says that others on your body would be willing to work with that, and wouldn't make constant attempts to heist control from each other? Even though symbionts are generally simple creatures (Int 5 or so usually) for the most part, they should be able to realize that a host that is able to defend itself and make progress towards achieving goals of the symbionts is much better than one being flung this way and that in a game of mental tug-of-war stumbling around drunklenly and trying to process conflicting commands. Also, if you keep them happy alignment-wise and goal-wise, conflicts shouldn't happen too often.
As a non-RP reason, there could be a few other ways to keep control. Some of these are the Nectrotic Tumor spell, a temporary Polymorph combined with a Mind Seed cast by a Psion that is fanatically loyal to you, draining ability scores from the symbiont that raise its Ego, etc. Most of them have very low Egos anyway (2-3). Even the artifact one has an Ego of 9.
Well, due to lack of sleep and sanity, this is all I can put together for now. Maybe tomorrow I'll look for more methods for this.
Item Ego - from D20srd.com
Ego is a measure of the total power and force of personality that an item possesses. Only after all aspects of an item have been generated can its Ego score be calculated. An item’s Ego score helps determine whether the item or the character is dominant in their relationship, as detailed below.
Items Against Characters
When an item has an Ego of its own, it has a will of its own. The item is, of course, absolutely true to its alignment. If the character who possesses the item is not true to that alignment’s goals or the item’s special purpose, personality conflict—item against character—results. Similarly, any item with an Ego score of 20 or higher always considers itself superior to any character, and a personality conflict results if the possessor does not always agree with the item.
When a personality conflict occurs, the possessor must make a Will saving throw (DC = item’s Ego). If the possessor succeeds, she is dominant. If she fails, the item is dominant. Dominance lasts for one day or until a critical situation occurs (such as a major battle, a serious threat to either the item or the character, and so on). Should an item gain dominance, it resists the character’s desires and demands concessions such as any of the following:
Removal of associates or items whose alignment or personality is distasteful to the item.
The character divesting herself of all other magic items or items of a certain type.
Obedience from the character so the item can direct where they go for its own purposes.
Immediate seeking out and slaying of creatures hateful to the item. Magical protections and devices to protect the item from molestation when it is not in use.
That the character carry the item with her on all occasions.
That the character relinquish the item in favor of a more suitable possessor due to alignment differences or conduct.
In extreme circumstances, the item can resort to even harsher measures, such as the following acts:
Force its possessor into combat.
Refuse to strike opponents.
Strike at its wielder or her associates.
Force its possessor to surrender to an opponent.
Cause itself to drop from the character’s grasp.
Naturally, such actions are unlikely when harmony reigns between the character’s and item’s alignments or when their purposes and personalities are well matched. Even so, an item might wish to have a lesser character possess it in order to easily establish and maintain dominance over him, or a higher-level possessor so as to better accomplish its goals.
All magic items with personalities desire to play an important role in whatever activity is under way, particularly combat. Such items are rivals of each other, even if they are of the same alignment. No intelligent item wants to share its wielder with others. An intelligent item is aware of the presence of any other intelligent item within 60 feet, and most intelligent items try their best to mislead or distract their host so that she ignores or destroys the rival. Of course, alignment might change this sort of behavior.
Items with personalities are never totally controlled or silenced by the characters who possess them, even though they may never successfully control their possessors. They may be powerless to force their demands but remain undaunted and continue to air their wishes and demands.
----
Cerebral Symbionts:
Cerebral Hood:
Ego: 15
Mind Leech
Ego: 16
Psionic Sinew
Ego: 6
Fiendish Symbionts:
Fiendish Familiar:
Ego: 8
Gutworm:
Ego: 9
Soul Tick:
Ego: 13
Ghostly Visage
Ego: 10 (only has an ego if summoned, not when he is a familiar [ie: Dread Necromancers find familiar ability at level 7])
On the plus side, I found out that the Ghostly Visage is indeed a symbiont, therefore hundreds or thousands of gaze attacks per turn are quite possible :D
Hm... ya know, Ocular Spell would own with this. It gives any spell a personal range. If it works with symbionts you can have your entire army give off 2 seering rays or whatever as a full-round action.
Good point SoulGamit, the fact that you can store any spell in your eyes and not use it till a desired time (going off of memory here, tell me if i'm wrong), would mean that the spell is active and thus leaving it open for the symbionts to use their share spells ability with you... so you can leave your eyeballs glowing with scorching ray all day and when it comes to your boss fight, just unleash 7600 scorching rays (i'm guessing that if you share spells and your 11th level at least, all your symbionts will shoot 3 rays).
Wouldn't being immune to compulsions/mind effecting effects work to stop an item with an ego score?
The problem here is that the ability isn't mentioned as falling into either of these categories; the ability to initiate conflict might mean that mental control is not established, as you still have the ability to fight back if taken over.
Then again, certain mind-effecting spells allow you to resist them under certain conditions. With symbionts, the 'physical control' argument could be made, meaning that they take over your muscles and other functions for a bit. Nothing is ever mentioned about an ability to make use of memories or spells or similar things being used during dominance that would require mental access.
On top of that, the actions that the item can force the possessor to do are very general. Some, such as the 'give item over to another person' or 'remove item from person' seem to be right out for both a symbiont and the Impure Prince's ability. Giving it over to someone else wouldn't work as the Impure Prince's ability states that someone else taking the symbiont causes conflicts until the other person fails, at which the symbiont escapes, and probably attempts to seek you out again. Removing the symbiont would deprive it of both a valuable source of nourishment and the only person it willingly would bond with. Likewise, you could say something similar about abilities that put the host in danger (rushing into combat, surrendering, or refusing to defend the host), as that could also take away the source of nourishment/willing bonding.
The problem I see comes from these a few different parts of that quote:
In extreme circumstances, the item can resort to even harsher measures, such as the following acts:
...
Strike at its wielder or her associates.
...
Naturally, such actions are unlikely when harmony reigns between the character’s and item’s alignments or when their purposes and personalities are well matched.
...
All magic items with personalities desire to play an important role in whatever activity is under way, particularly combat. Such items are rivals of each other, even if they are of the same alignment. No intelligent item wants to share its wielder with others. An intelligent item is aware of the presence of any other intelligent item within 60 feet, and most intelligent items try their best to mislead or distract their host so that she ignores or destroys the rival.
Well, seeing as most of the Eberron symbionts share a similar outlook, all having been created by the same beings, they might agree with each other on some things. (Most of the Eberron ones are Lawful, after all.) You might get one symbiont ordering you to attack another, but what is stopping that other symbiont from trying to wrest control and stop the attack or fight back? Having your body covered in a few factions plotting against each other might be interesting, but the constant war over the host would again put it in danger. I keep coming back to that point because of the statement in the Impure Prince's ability that makes the symbiont only want to bond with you; you've essentially tied their source of nourshment and life to yourself. For simple creatures that absolutely require a host to survive, and have a difficult time finding them at that, it is a signifigant thing to devote themselves to a single host over the others available.
Of course, this mainly applies to the Eberron symbionts only; the other symbionts could well have conflicting goals. That goes even moreso for the ones that require no nourishment at all, such as the Ghostly Visage.
Here are the good ones we have so far:
- In-Character Role-Playing Jibber-Jabber
- Necrotic Tumor
- Geas/Quest and Lesser Geas
- Planar Ally (Lesser, Standard, Greater)
- Planar Binding (Lesser, Standard, Greater)
- Custom Summoning Variant + Halaster's Fetch
- Polymorph / Polymorph any Object
- Undead Control (Rebuking, Spell-Based Control, Direct Raising)
The very last one is new. I noticed that the Zombie and Skeleton templates allow raised creatures to keep their old subtypes. Therefore, the most easily available undead symbionts retain the all-important Share Spells ability. So, lure/purchase a symbiont, kill it, and raise it as a loyal undead minion. Combined with General of Undeath and Undead Lieutenant, being a Nasty Necromancer Gentleman has never been better!
Should a symbiont gain dominance, it directly controls the host creature's actions until the host regains dominance.
So unless this rule has been changed in later symbiont rules, your character effectively becomes an NPC for...
...one day or until a critical situation occurs (such as a major battle, a serious threat to either the symbiont or the host, and so on...
LoP brings up an excellent point, killing a symbiont then raising it as your undead slave means that it will never have a need to fight ego's therefore the ego doesn't really matter. The only downside is that you have spend a lot of time killing/raising your little friends.
The best way to do it is take them off of your body and get some low level area affect spell (just enough to kill them, no need to obliterate them into nothing with a 3rd level fireball) and use fell animate to raise them all up, command them to go onto your body, command them not to battle your ego and (not sure if this is possible), command them not to hurt your ability scores [for those nifty powers that you want that would normally hurt you].
As I said before, the only downside to this is that your symbionts can get turned and we all know that's never fun.
Props and OP credit to whomever finds such a spell, though!
Chain Spell has a limited number of times the spell can arc. Specifically, it's Caster Level number of arcs to a maximum of 20.
why is this a limiting factor? lets say Im a 10th level character with one symbiont just to simplifiy the problem. I cast magic missile and send 4 missiles to an enemy and one to hit myself. as I cast a spell on myself the symbiont is able to do the same. it sends 4 missiles to the enemy and one to itself as well. thats 8 magic missiles with one casting of magic missile. In the same situation if we cast chain lightning we hit the opponent and have it chain back to me once and then move on to the rest of the enemys. I cast a spell on myself and the symbiont does the same. it cast chain lightning on the same primary target as I did and then chains the second chain link of its own chain lightning back to itself and then off to the rest of the baddies like my spell did.
Also, chaining a spell onto the symbionts wouldn't work because if you target a symbiont you aren't targeting yourself.
One more thing, it's impossible to have more then 2 whips I'm affraid, since the description states that the arm can't be used for anything else, other then unarmed strikes. While one could argue that the words "anything else" mean "anything but playing host to a symbiont" or that an arm playing host isn't an actual "use" you could run into DM fait.
You then proceede to cast an offensive spell on yourself which is shared since you have cast it upon yourself. Then Enjoy the effects of the madness.
A Shared Heart of Stone (CA) gives all of you dr 5/- and energy resist 5 cold, elec, fire.
And i'm curious as the effects of a shared repusion
I noticed that the Zombie and Skeleton templates allow raised creatures to keep their old subtypes. Therefore, the most easily available undead symbionts retain the all-important Share Spells ability. So, lure/purchase a symbiont, kill it, and raise it as a loyal undead minion. Combined with General of Undeath and Undead Lieutenant, being a Nasty Necromancer Gentleman has never been better!
Alright, one little nitpick with this: if you wanted to heal your symbionts through your own abilities, you'd need to pick up Tomb-Tainted Soul after this, as positive energy would harm them as undead.
Alucard~
LE
Necropolitan [LM] Human
Ranger 1/Wizard 4/Impure Prince [MoE] 5/Incantatrix [PGtF] 10
Alright, one little nitpick with this: if you wanted to heal your symbionts through your own abilities, you'd need to pick up Tomb-Tainted Soul after this, as positive energy would harm them as undead.
Yes, or be a Neutral or Evil cleric. With fast healing. Or a Necropolitan. Or whatnot.
SoulGamit: I'm AFB (Away From Books) right now, but I'll look into the restriction you mentioned regarding tentacle whips. For now, it's worth noting that being affected by some circumstantial effect, and then deciding to take action could very easily be argued as symbiont self-actualization, rather than "use." You're right, though, that this probably falls into the realm of individual roleplaying and Player/DM interactions.
As for Alucard... don't forget Toothed Tentacles (LEoF) and Claw of Darkness (FRCS).
While its to bring up counter points twice, i would like to point out that the Symbionts Feed by inflicting the Stat Damage, If the Symbiont is prevented from dealing this damage then the Symbiont is likely to die of starvation.
While you may say that this is flavor text it is clearly a part of the creatures special abilities.
Example
MindFeeding (su): A cerebral hood Survives by consuming its hosts mental energy. This deals 1 point of intelligence damage each day the hood is attached
Thus The act of consumption deals 1 point of Intelligence Damage, if it cant deal damage then if cant consume.
If you ran into an invulnerable pizza that is immune to weapon damage (small object avg 8-12 hp[slices]) And you couldn't inflict Bite damage on it, or even cut it could you really consider to have consumed it? You could say "i'll swallow it whole" at which point the pizza passes unharmed through your digestive system.
Immunity in Dnd means that you are completly unaffected by something and things that generate that particular thing.
other examples include undead feeding. And undead who feeds off of strength is unable to feed off of a person who does not take strength damage. Check out the Libris Mortis Chapter one for more information on this.
The logic runs like this
I(symbiont) must feed to survive
I(symbiont) Feed by inflicting damage
Thus if i am unable to inflict damage i cannot feed.
in the libris mortis this is
I(undead) Hunger
My hunder is Satiated through Drain/Damage
If i am unable to Drain/Damage imy hunger is unsatiated
Going through the fiend folio only each symbiont has a drawback that will be magnified through the application of hundreds of them
Crebral Symbionts: see above for starvation
Fiendish Familiar: No drawbacks Space limitation 6
Gutworm: Each worm increases the amount of food needed to sustain the character. Each worm eats as much as one regular character so multiple gutworms require tremendous amounts of food
Soul Tick: See Above for starvation
Ghostly Visage: has no drawbacks that penalize the character nor does it have a feeding problem. So however many Incorporeal creaures you think you can cram into one character go ahead, this one seems to be your best bet.
Now i'm not saying that this trick doesn't work, i'm simply saying that it seems that certain Symbionts are less than optimal for this, while others work fine.
also the best means of obtaining a symbiont seems to be planar binding and animate dead. its free for as many as you can get and you have perfect control over them. otherwise an evil character with planar binding should do fine as well.
also maybe Im just reading too much into the flavor text for gut worms but im guessing you cant have more then one as they kill each other off. baring having some undead gutworms
Speaking of flavor, Lokiyn highlights the need to pay close attention to all the text of a monster entry.
Specifically, if your DM is a nitpicker for flavor-reasoning, it takes creativity to justify ability-damage immunity for sustenance-themed symbionts (about 1/4 of all symbionts, specifically the cerebral hood, soul tick, and tentacle whip) or resorting to Restoration-ish spells and abilities. For clarification, none of the MoE symbionts have mechanical sustenance-related ability damage traits, only damage inflicted on insertion and removal.
Mechanically, it is probably necessary to make the distinction between "dealing damage" and "taking damage." Take weapon damage, for example. A sample sword hit deals 8 damage. A character with damage reduction 5/- takes 3 damage from such a hit. The sword dealt 8 damage, but a different quantity, 3, was taken. Now say that the character had damage reduction 10/-. The sword hit could deal the same 8 damage, but the character would take 0 damage. The fact that no damage was taken does not negate the fact that damage was dealt.
What is important to the mechanics of the sustenance-symbionts is that they deal damage. Nothing is said about the characters having to take the damage, or really anything punitive at all about reduction in the effects of the dealt ability damage. To simplify: the sustenance-symbionts can freely deal ability damage necessary for sustenance, that damage just isn't taken.
The undead example is a separate set of mechanics for a separate set of creatures, and making cross-flavor-text-references doesn't engender a lot of rules-support. Analogies to the real world can abound, but in the idiosyncratic D&D world of mechanics, immunity to ability damage is still a viable tool for Nasty Gentlemen.
That said, the Gutworm's extra-eating requirement is actually pretty fun to consider. I imagine a walking famine-spirit of a Nasty Gentleman Glutton. For those who don't want to shell out gold for extra Murlyund's Spoons, getting a class/feat/spell ability to remove the need to eat altogether should fix the problem. The gutworm's requirement is phrased as a doubling of normal eating requirements, and 2 X 0 = 0.
Hmmm what happens when a symbiont has a symbiont that has a symbiont.....
If its attached to you and you cast a spell on yourself and its share spells ability activates......
nope i can't think of a reason for it to continue down the chain, although that would have sidestepped the flavor feeding issue. Since you have the -1 penalty applied only once and that symbiont has a -1 penalty, etc etc.
As for the flavor issue i once had a dm who applied the most negative interpretations of abilities and flavor text to the players but use dmpc's who magically escaped everything unharmed. (this eventually ended the group since as a player this was made manifest in overly elaborate plots explaining Convoluted class choices and items of insanity. Its like justifying a level 20 character with 10 classes and an artifact in each pocket.) So i tend to go over the Things i make with a fine tooth comb and make sure that each piece can justify the others, which drops the overall power but makes for more fleshed out and playable characters. (although i've noticed that knowing how to use your minor abilities to thier max will put you ahead of powerbuilds that are basically one trick ponies, that and spreadsheets are your friend)
a) Do multiple overlapping Affinity Fields create an infinite loop unaided? If so, whenever a character with a Symbiont manifests AF, he sets up an infinite loop (share spells cannot be turned off), which would eliminate some record-setting potential.
b) If one manifests Share Pain, Forced targetting oneself, how does that distribute through as the Symbionts' share spells ability? Does each Symbiont get a SP,F onto itself? Does each Symbiont get a SP,F onto each Symbiont and the caster? Does each symbiont get a SP,F onto the caster?
c) How does SP,F(self) distribute through an AF?
d) How does SP,F(self) distribute through multiple overlapping AFs?
e) Is there any way to temporarily turn off share spells or bypass it so you can manifest AF without creating infinite loops?
I am assuming that the answers are (a) yes, (b) each onto each, (c) same as b, (d) infinity times b, (e) no.
EDIT: If I assume that there is some way of getting around the Share Spells ability, I have found a way of dealing between 4.1x10^21 and 4.9x10^34 damage in a single round. And this is not even particularly optimized.
I think I have a long way to go before I max out the potential of this trick.
The main character:
DaelkyrHalfBlood Wiz5 / Incantatrix10 / ImpurePrince 5 with Leadership
The cohort:
DaelkyrHalfBlood Egoist18
The main character has prepared Delay Death, Mental Pinnacle, Construct Essence, and Shapechange
The cohort has Forced Share Pain and Affinity Field as powers known.
The main character has 7,600 symbionts.
The damage target is within Affinity Field range.
The routine:
1. The cohort manifests Fusion with the main character.
2. The Fused being manifests Fission. It does not affect the main character / cohort because they are Fused, but it doubles the number of Symbionts.
3. The being casts Construct Essence (not shared).
4. All the newly formed Symbionts (from the Fission) attach as a full-round action.
5. The being casts/manifests Delay Death (shared), Forced Share Pain (targeting the being, shared), Forced Share Pain (targeting the damage target, shared), Shapechange (not shared, change into a Jovoc), Affinity Field (not shared), and finally Mental Pinnacle (shared).
6. Each Symbiont manifests Mind Thrust (augmented to 20d10) on the being.
7. Damage flies around, and the damage target blows up.
Here are my damage calculations:
Obviously, I couldn't do this by hand. The only thing stopping this from going infinite is the fact that Forched Share Pain rounds down. If it tracked fractional damage, this trick would go infinite. I used the following program on the TI-89 to do the calculations. It is very inefficient, but it is good enough for my purposes.
ii(d)
func
if d<1
return 0
return int(2.5*d)+n*(2*ss(d)+ss(int(d/2)))
endfunc
ss(d)
func
if d<1
return 0
return int(d/2)+ii(int(d/2))+(n-1)*ss(int(d/2))
endfunc
run()
prgm
2*7600 -> n
disp n*{ii(20), ii(200)}
endprgm
The values displayed to the screen (the minimum and maximum damage) was:
{1.31E23, 1.25E37}
I think that is a record.
Sorry for the double post, but here is my latest damage routine (between 1.31e23 and 1.25e37)
I think I have a long way to go before I max out the potential of this trick.
The main character:
DaelkyrHalfBlood Wiz5 / Incantatrix10 / ImpurePrince 5 with Leadership
The cohort:
DaelkyrHalfBlood Egoist18
The main character has prepared Delay Death, Mental Pinnacle, Construct Essence, and Shapechange
The cohort has Forced Share Pain and Affinity Field as powers known.
The main character has 7,600 symbionts.
The damage target is within Affinity Field range.
The routine:
1. The cohort manifests Fusion with the main character.
2. The Fused being manifests Fission. It does not affect the main character / cohort because they are Fused, but it doubles the number of Symbionts.
3. The being casts Construct Essence (not shared).
4. All the newly formed Symbionts (from the Fission) attach as a full-round action.
5. The being casts/manifests Delay Death (shared), Forced Share Pain (shared), Shapechange (not shared, change into a Jovoc), Affinity Field (not shared), and finally Mental Pinnacle (shared).
6. Each Symbiont manifests Mind Thrust (augmented to 20d10) on the being.
7. Damage flies around, and the damage target blows up.
Here are my damage calculations:
Obviously, I couldn't do this by hand. The only thing stopping this from going infinite is the fact that Forched Share Pain rounds down. If it tracked fractional damage, this trick would go infinite. I used the following program on the TI-89 to do the calculations. It is very inefficient, but it is good enough for my purposes.
ii(d)
func
if d<1
return 0
return int(2.5*d)+n*(2*ss(d)+ss(int(d/2)))
endfunc
ss(d)
func
if d<1
return 0
return int(d/2)+ii(int(d/2))+(n-1)*ss(int(d/2))
endfunc
run()
prgm
2*7600 -> n
disp n*{ii(20), ii(200)}
endprgm
The values displayed to the screen (the minimum and maximum damage) was:
{1.31E23, 1.25E37}
I think that is a record.
You think correctly. The Hurler's record was to the 14th I believe, and the Nanoaffinity Bomb Cvazi calculated from my idea went to the 16th. Your minimum damage amount, if correctly calculated, is at least ten thousand times higher than any finite damage record produced on the boards yet.
Of course, beating that record won't be too hard. I just need to work in LoP's Clone abuse into the builds. Perhaps his Beholder Mage abuse and K's Emancipated Spawn abuse too - I might not need a cohort at all!
EDIT: Hey, if I get the infinite spells trick and Lokiyn's Apocalypse from the Sky abuse on in, and spread enough clones over an area, all affected by Fate Link.....
1) You can avoid an infinite loop under multiple affinity field by using spells and powers higher than 3rd level.
2) It's questionable whether psionic powers like fission would be shared by the Share Spells ability.
3) We may have to discuss at length the possible limitations due to sizing on the number of symbionts that can connect with any individual. It's a tricky, general issue to work out that will impact the final result.
Sorry to cut things short. Keep up the awesome investigations!
2) It's questionable whether psionic powers like fission would be shared by the Share Spells ability.
Do you mean that is it questionable whether psionic powers in general are shared?
3) We may have to discuss at length the possible limitations due to sizing on the number of symbionts that can connect with any individual. It's a tricky, general issue to work out that will impact the final result.
With non-incorporeal symbionts, woulden't it be how ever many creatures of that size can share a space with the character?
With incorporeal symbionts (Visage, Sibling), there obviously isn't any such limitation unless the rules specifically state that two incorporeal creatures can't occupy the same space.
Do you mean that is it questionable whether psionic powers in general are shared?
To be frank, yes. Psionic-Magic transparency doesn't seem to extend this far (to the Share Spells ability, that is), especially if one follows the "ennumerated" interpretation of said rules-complex. If there's some major FAQ ruling or mini-combo involved that is assumed here, an explanation would be nice.
Second, I am not sure on how Forced Share Pain (targeting self) interacts with share spells. I assumed that each Symbiont (and the Gentleman) would get a Forced Share Pain onto each other Symbiont (and the Gentleman), as I stated in my post yesterday. Note that normal Share Pain would work just as well for this purpose.
Third, if the subject of Affinity Field is targeted by Mind Thrust, I have assumed that the damage is trasferred only once (which would appear to be reasonable). However, it is possible that is should go twice - once as damage, once as a low level spell effect. This would increase the damage, but I think it is too shaky.
Finally, I am quite sure that this is NOT the highest one can go with this concept. I did not take into account the possibility of multiple castings of Share Pain (self). 30 castings (mostly extended) should be possible while still allowing time for the other spells. The Incantatrix's metamagic effect, and some normal extend spell, might be needed here. This plus the one targeting the bad guy would drastically increase the damage. Also, thanks to RT for reminding me of Fate Link. Fate Link (self-self) would create an infinite loop, but Fate Link (self-bad guy) would increase the damage by a bit.
Here is the latest version of the program and its output I would be greatly grateful if somebody would check this for me. This takes into account 30 castings of SP (self) and replaces SP,F (bad guy) with Fate Link (bad guy).
ii(d)
func
if d<1
return 0
return 3*d+n*(2*ss(d)+r*ss(int(d/2)))
endfunc
ss(d)
func
if d<1
return 0
return d+r*(ii(int(d/2))+(n-1)*r*ss(int(d/2)))
endfunc
runme()
prgm
2*7600 -> n
30 -> r
disp n*{ii(20),ii(200)}
endprgm
The latest number (based on the above program) is... As I am typing this, I am waiting for it to finish running... I wish the TI-89 allowed functions to modify external variables... between 2.09E37 and 6.51E58. Changing the number of SP,Fs to 20 means between 9.24E35 and 2.76E56. Changing it to 10 means between 5.11E33 and 3.1E52. That is a lot.
Anyway, the numbers in my above post are all wrong (too high) because of some mismatched parentheses. But I am not going to bother to change them. Instead, I will beat them.
I had to keep thinking about Fate Link, as it deals far more damage than SP,F. Finally, I found it:
Replace all references to SP,F with Fate Link, then add Biofeedback (shared) to the preparatory stage. Biofeedback prevents any infinite recursion - the damage drops by 2 (and only 2) at each step.
Mental Pinnacle is no longer optimal. It is best to try to deal the largest single damage packet possible. It is also very important to maximize the number of Fate Link (self)s cast. I will now see how high I can go.
First, the characters:
Abe: SunElf Wiz5 / Incantatrix10 / ImpurePrince5
Int 31 (10 uses of Metamagic Effect)
Feats of note: Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Extra Spell (Delay Death), Arcane Mastery
Spells per day: 4/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5
Bee: SunElf Egoist18
Int 31 (100 bonus power points)
Feats of note: Overchannel, Earth Sense, Earth Power, EK(Fate Link)
The setup:
I assume Abe has 7,000 Symbionts, saving some money for other things.
Abe casts the following:
Delay Death (5th lvl, dur 24 hrs) shared with all Symbionts, Persisted via ME
Shapechange (9th lvl, dur. 24 hrs) into a Chronotyrn Persisted via IM
Construct Essence (5th lvl, dur. 24 hrs) Persisted via ME
Dweomer of Transference (4th lvl, dur. 24 hrs) Persisted via ME and intentionally lowering his caster lvl to 7
Abe then casts the rest of his spells at Bee except for one 9th level.
Spells remaining: 4/7/7/6/6/5/4/5/5/4
Power points gained: 3*16+5*14+5*12+4*10+5*8+6*6+6*4+7*2+7*1=339
Bee now has 280+100+339=719 pp
Bee then Dispels Dweomer, using Abe's Arcane Mastery to guarantee success. (714 pp left)
Bee manifests Extended Overchanneled Fusion for 42 minutes = 420 rnds. (714-16=698 pp left)
Each Fate Link lasts 180 minutes, which is more than enough. Bee manifests 166 of them targeting himself (as the being, and sharing them). (698-166*4 = 34 pp left)
Bee then manifests one Fate Link targeting the damage target (30 pp left).
Finally, she manifests Biofeedback (shared), Fission (shared), and Affinity Field (shared) (0 pp left)
Abe then takes over and uses his last non-cantrip spell slot to cast Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Maximizing it with IM. He then Empowers it with ME. Finally, he makes a touch attack with it against himself. (240+20d6 damage, or between 260 and 360)
Here is the new program. I would really appreciate it if someone would check this.
Given the number of spells and symbionts from a variety of books which synergize with this trick, I'd be more worried about a DM renting out a forklift and dropping a medium-sized library on me...
psly4mne: Wow. Even bigger numbers. By several orders of magnitude, even. Better get down to hashing things out. And maybe switching over to Excel or Matlab or MAPLE.
Transparency: Intentions and desires aside, I haven't found any support for the Share Spells ability being able to function on psionic powers. I think we'll have to eliminate their use for the purpose non-Affinity-field sharing. Specifically, shared Fission is probably out.
Selfish Trick: I've found a way for spells not to be shared with symbionts, if so desired. Have a cohort cast the spell on you instead. The wording of Share Spells is such that it works for spells the host himself casts, but not anybody else. Just a tool to have available.
Construct Essence: What was the point of this spell, again? Ability damage immunity?
Biofeedback: I'm not quite certain how you believe infinite recursion would begin and escalate in a one-affinity-field situation, and how only DR 2/- prevents multiplicative gains.
Power Points: If power points are in any way a limiting factor, couldn't you cast Mental Pinnacle on your symbionts, then use Metaconcert to pool all of the power points for massive gain? This would yield a lot more than Dweomer of Transference.
More to come later. Mainly, I'm working through how to properly route damage effects through Share Pain and Fate Link, and if Fate Link stacks with itself.
Wow. Even bigger numbers. By several orders of magnitude, even. Better get down to hashing things out. And maybe switching over to Excel or Matlab or MAPLE.
Excel is similarly limited to 1E1000. I don't have MAPLE, but I will try Matlab or Ruby (both installed on my other computer). Edit: Ruby works. Now I have to reteach myself how to use it.
Transparency: Intentions and desires aside, I haven't found any support for the Share Spells ability being able to function on psionic powers. I think we'll have to eliminate their use for the purpose non-Affinity-field sharing. Specifically, shared Fission is probably out.
This still seems vague to me. Are you suggesting that even the Cerebral symbionts can't share powers? Anyway, removing Fission entirely is not a big deal - just about 40 orders of magnitude on the lower limit, and more on the upper limit. Sharing all the others can be done via Affinity Field.
Selfish Trick: I've found a way for spells not to be shared with symbionts, if so desired. Have a cohort cast the spell on you instead. The wording of Share Spells is such that it works for spells the host himself casts, but not anybody else. Just a tool to have available.
My build already uses a cohort, so that would detract from the combo. Maybe there is another workaround. If the Symbionts can detach themselves, then I could have them all detach, then reattach after the casting. Anyway, the only things I do not share are Affinity Field (which, as a power, you suggest might be unshareable) and Shapechange (which may as well be shared, having all the symbionts turn into different symbionts).
Construct Essence: What was the point of this spell, again? Ability damage immunity?
Yes. Ability damage immunity.
Biofeedback: I'm not quite certain how you believe infinite recursion would begin and escalate in a one-affinity-field situation, and how only DR 2/- prevents multiplicative gains.
The infinite recursion would come from the Fate Links. Without Biofeedback, damage would keep bouncing back and forth between two Fate Linked symbionts, duplicating to the bad guy each time. With Biofeedback, the size of each damage packet decreases by 2 each time. If I could find a way to give everyone 1 point of DR, it would be a big increase to the damage.
Power Points: If power points are in any way a limiting factor, couldn't you cast Mental Pinnacle on your symbionts, then use Metaconcert to pool all of the power points for massive gain? This would yield a lot more than Dweomer of Transference.
Great idea. There are two limiting factors here - the duration of Fusion (at 3 Fate Links per round) and power points. Power points ended up being the relevant one here. Mental Pinnacle+Metaconcert is definitely the way to go, as it would provide enough power points that the durations matter more. New and improved damage calculations are forthcoming when I get around to them.
More to come later.
I look forward to it.
Mainly, I'm working through how to properly route damage effects through Share Pain and Fate Link, and if Fate Link stacks with itself.
Share Pain is out of the trick - Fate Link is so much betterer. Fate Link doesn't exactly stack with itself. Each Fate Link applies separately. I know it sounds the same, but it is the difference between one large damage packet and many small ones. If you see anything that suggests they should stack or overlap, tell me.
One annoying bit about this trick is that the two negative levels from Fate Link will kill any symbiont as soon as the bad guy dies (unless there is a 3-HD symbiont somewhere). Then all the Fate Links to the dying symbionts will kill the fused being. I'm sure there is a spell somewhere that would block negative levels. Not that it affects the record...
@Zemyla: I don't have HoH, sadly.
Damage Reduction doesn't apply against spells/powers. No time to pull up a quote, but it's there. We need a different way to keep the damage under control. Your idea of forcing diminishing returns is awesome, though. Damped oscillations, by Krom!
We can save the symbionts from Negative-Level death at the end by simply casting an energy-drain protection spell on the gentleman.
Extra cohorts can be gained either by shifting to a Thrallherd-centric build or by using the Undead Leadership feat.
Since Fission is out of it, how about Body Outside Body, from Complete Arcane?
Since Fission is out of it, how about Body Outside Body, from Complete Arcane?
That's what I was thinking. Since each of your clones has a full pp pool, that's an easy way to get all the Soul Crystals your symbiotes need to supply their Affinity Fields.
Another short post, sorry.
That's okay.
Damage Reduction doesn't apply against spells/powers. No time to pull up a quote, but it's there. We need a different way to keep the damage under control. Your idea of forcing diminishing returns is awesome, though. Damped oscillations, by Krom!
In that case, replace the spell with something that deals energy damage in one large packet, then do something that gives energy resistance 1. I can't find a way to get energy resistance 1. Anybody? Energy damage does open up Energy Admixture. Does an Admixed spell do one larger packet of energy or does it do two small packets?
We can save the symbionts from Negative-Level death at the end by simply casting an energy-drain protection spell on the gentleman.
Of course.
Extra cohorts can be gained either by shifting to a Thrallherd-centric build or by using the Undead Leadership feat.
I'll keep that in mind if the need comes up.
Since Fission is out of it, how about Body Outside Body, from Complete Arcane?
I'll incorporate that in the next version.
That's what I was thinking. Since each of your clones has a full pp pool, that's an easy way to get all the Soul Crystals your symbiotes need to supply their Affinity Fields.
What is a Soul Crystal? I was only using one Affinity Field. However, manifesting multiple Affinity Fields in place of the last few Fate Links would boost the damage.
I ported the program to Ruby. I would appreciate it if someone would check it.
Damage Reduction doesn't apply against spells/powers. No time to pull up a quote, but it's there.
Glad to help. Here is the FAQ quote about damage reduction:
Does damage reduction help against powers that deal slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage, such as crystal shard (Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 89)?
Spells (and powers), spell-like abilities, and energy attacks ignore damage reduction (DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide, page 292). Thus, even if a spell or power describes its damage as bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, it is still a spell (or power) effect, and thus damage reduction does not apply (unless the spell or power’s description specifically states otherwise).
Personally I think that that is not right, but my GMs are willing to go with it as it isn't game-breaking.
FAQ
I did not know that rule even applied to slashing/bludgeoning/piercing powers. Thanks for the quote.
Does anyone have any idea how to get the smallest energy resistance possible? I can't even find less than 10 from a spell! I'm tearing my hair out here!
I'm in the middle of writing the routine and that is my one hang-up. That and the fact that Metaconcert can only link the manifester and 9 other creatures, for 540 power points each time.
How about Mental Resistance? It only works against psionics and forces the loop to route through the gentleman, but it's effectively DR 3/- against psionics.
Fate Link would still bounce damage between the symbionts, so Mental Resistance would not keep it finite unless I could get all symbionts with the feat.
I am looking through the Spell Index now for a spell that gives small energy resistance.
I noticed that Delayed Blast Fireball is a 7th level spell, not 5th as I thought. That leaves the question of best energy damaging spell up in the air. DBF has the advantage of sticking around to be affected by ME.
I also noticed that Delay Death is 4th level, so an Incantatrix can persist it in a 9th level slot.
EDIT: Still working on the routine. Multiple AFs is out because Fate Link is better. BOB is being amazing. I think you will be surprised at how many symbionts I have.
Energy Admixture increases the damage a spell does, but remains a single spell, so the damage is a single packet.
I will likewise continue to look for means of minor energy/damage resistance.
Metamagic persistification (and other metamagic trickery) should pretty much entirely be taken care of by the "metamagic effect" ability of the Incantrix, and thus spell-slots should be mostly irrelevant. The only place slotting should matter is for instantaneous effects, wherein Instant Metamagic takes the front. Still, if Instant Metamagic isn't enough, we could get an Incantrix cohort or two to use Cooperative Metamagic to aid those instant effects.
I would appreciate a little more clarification about the current scheme for damage interrelations (no, I'm not cool enough to decipher it from a coding language I don't know). I'm probably wrong, but my last impression was that there was a single Affinity Field active, which was responsible for multiplying damage bouncing back and forth between mutliple Fate Links which target the gentleman and one symbiont apeice.
Soul Crystal is a new psionic power found in Magic of Incarnum.
I don't have MoI. Can you tell me in rough terms what it does?
Energy Admixture increases the damage a spell does, but remains a single spell, so the damage is a single packet.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I will likewise continue to look for means of minor energy/damage resistance.
Thank you for your efforts. I found Heart of Stone (Energy Resistance 5), but it has a long casting time and large components. I kept a feat slot open for Extra Spell, so any spell would be OK.
Metamagic persistification (and other metamagic trickery) should pretty much entirely be taken care of by the "metamagic effect" ability of the Incantatrix, and thus spell-slots should be mostly irrelevant.
Yes. Preparing persistent spells is a bad idea. Some quickened spells should be prepared though.
The only place slotting should matter is for instantaneous effects, wherein Instant Metamagic takes the front.
And quickened spells.
Still, if Instant Metamagic isn't enough, we could get an Incantrix cohort or two to use Cooperative Metamagic to aid those instant effects.
The current scheme casts BOB a lot (total 110 Incantatrix clones). They can use Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic, can't they?
I would appreciate a little more clarification about the current scheme for damage interrelations (no, I'm not cool enough to decipher it from a coding language I don't know). I'm probably wrong, but my last impression was that there was a single Affinity Field active, which was responsible for multiplying damage bouncing back and forth between mutliple Fate Links which target the gentleman and one symbiont apeice.
Not quite. The Affinity Field is basically there to share the Fate Links. There are 4 components to the mechanism:
1. The main character is Shapechanged into a Jovoc.
2. The main character still has Affinity Field up. (Maybe. I might have to let the duration run out to cast Heart of Stone or other spells)
3. The main character casts Fate Link (self->damage target). This is shared via Affinity Field, so every participant (the character and the symbionts) has a Fate Link to the damage target.
4. This is the big one. The main character casts Fate Link (self->self). This is shared via Affinity Field on both ends, so every participant has a Fate Link to every other participant. [edit]This is done many times.[/edit]
I included the code on the off chance that someone who knows Ruby (still a fairly obscure language) might come by and check it.
I am currently working on the new routine. Who knew working out the 400+ rounds of preparation would take so long? The most annoying parts are the short duration of Affinity Field and the long casting time / limited number of targets of Metaconcert. EDIT: Partial routine deleted. I am now finished. See next post.
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Undead Leadership, Leadership, Iron Will, Repeat Spell, Extra Spell (BOB), Item Familiar, Twin Spell, OPEN
Class features: Metamagic Effect 13/day, Cooperative Metamagic 13/day, Instant Metamagic 2/day, Improved Metamagic, Lure Symbiont
Items: +6 Headband of Intellect, 6880 shadow siblings
Spells: 5/8/8/7/7/7/7/7/5/5, CL 19
Bee: Necropolitan Human Egoist17, int 25
Feats: Quicken power, Extend power, Psionic Meditation, Repeat power, Overchannel, EK(Fate Link), EK(Schism), Psicrystal affinity, Psicrystal containment, Earth Power, OPEN
Power Points: 250+59=309, CL 17 (20 with overchannel)
Cecil: Human Conjurer5 / Incantatrix10 / HalruaanElder2, int 31
Feats: Iron Will, Scribe Scroll, Halruaan Adept, Spell Thematics, Energy Admixture(electricity), Enervate Spell, Energy Substitution(electricity), Repeat Spell, Extra Spell (Delay Death), Quicken Spell, Extra Spell (Death Ward), OPEN
Class Features: Metamagic Effect 13/day, Cooperative Metamagic 13/day, Instant Metamagic 2/day, Improved Metamagic, Adroit Casting (Quicken Spell)
Items: +6 Headband of Intellect
Spells: 5/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/4/3
Abe's Spells Prepared:
9: Repeat BOBx5
8: BOBx5
7: BOBx7
6: MP, ...
5: DelayDeathx2, ConstructEssence, ...
2: Fox's Cunning
Cecil's Spells Prepared:
9: Quickened BOBx3
8: Repeat BOBx4
7: BOBx4, DelayedBlastFireball
4: Death Ward, ...
2: Fox's Cunning
Routine:
Abe has previously cast Heart of Stone and shared it with all the symbionts. BOB clones will take care of all our metamagic needs via Cooperative and Effect. Aid another will eventually be key in making the hardest spellcraft checks. All spells are persistent unless I say otherwise. The BOBs multiply for symbionts if the symbiont clones attach in between. Each BOB Abe prepared generates 4 clones and multiplies the symbionts by 5. Each BOB Cecil prepared generated 3 clones and multiplies the symbionts by 4. All psionic powers are overchanneled to ML 20.
Abe casts these spells:
Repeat BOB
Repeat Twin BOBx16
Construct Essence
Delay Death
Fox's Cunning
Total Symbionts at this time: 6880 * 5^66. All BOBs cast after this point are Cecil's
Cecil casts:
Shapechange (Chronotyrn form)
Fox's Cunning
Death Ward
The fun begins:
Round 1: Bee Manifests Extend Schism (dur. 40 rnds - ends after round 41) [300 pp]
[move] Bee focuses
Round 2: [full-round] Bee Manifests Extend Fusion with Cecil (dur. 400 rnds - ends after round 402) [283 pp]
[swift] Bee/Cecil manifests Hustle and focuses [279 pp]
[schism] --
Round 3: [full-round] Bee/Cecil manifests Extend Fusion with Abe (dur. 400 rnds - ends after round 403) [263 pp]
[dual] Repeat Twin BOB
[dual move] focus
[swift] Quicken Repeat Twin BOB
[dual swift] Quicken Repeat Twin BOB
[schism] --
Round 4: Repeat Twin BOB
[swift] Quicken Repeat Twin BOB
[dual] Repeat Twin BOB
[dual swift] Quicken Repeat Twin BOB
Round 5: [swift] Quicken Repeat Twin BOB
[dual] Repeat Twin BOB
[dual swift] Quicken Repeat Twin BOB
Symbiont count: 6880 * 5^66 * 4^44
Clone count: 110
Round 5 cont'd: Mental Pinnacle
Rounds 6-15 normal actions: Twin Repeat Metaconcert (dur. 200 rnds - ends after round 215/216) [245 pp]
Round 6 dual action: Double move (focus self and psicrystal)
Rounds 7-16 dual actions: Twin Repeat Metaconcert (dur. 200 rnds - ends after round 216/217) [227+4320 pp]
Round 16: Extend Affinity Field (dur. 40 rnds - ends after round 55) [167+4302 pp]
[move] focus
[dual] Repeat Fate Link (dur. 2000 rnds - ends after round 2016) [167+4294 pp] //I will now stop tracking the durations of Fate Links
[dual move] focus
[schism] Fate Link [167+4290]
Rounds 17-55: Repeat Fate Link [8 pp spent]
[move] focus
[schism] Fate Link [12 pp spent]
[dual] Repeat Fate Link [20 pp spent]
[dual move] focus
On round 41, replace a Repeat Fate Link with an Extend Schism (same cost)
After round 55, [167+3510 pp], [196 Fate Links] //One Fate Link is to the damage target; the rest are self-self
From round 16 to 55 (40 rounds), 810 metaconcert pp were spent and 198 Fate Links were picked up (including the two that were dropped for Schism)
Rounds 56-95, 96-135, 136-175: Repeat rounds 16-55 three more times. Schism is recast on rounds 81, 121, 161
After round 175, [167+1080 pp] [784 Fate Links]
Round 176: Same as round 16 (Affinity Field ends after round 215) but add Hustle (focus psicrystal) [167+1046 pp] [787 Fate Links]
Rounds 177-206: Same as round 17 (recast Schism on round 201) [167+446 pp] [935 Fate Links]
Rounds 207-217 schism: 11 Fate Links [167+402 pp] [946 Fate Links]
Rounds 207-217 normal actions: Twin Repeat Metaconcert (dur. 200 rounds - ends after round 417) [167+384 pp]
Round 207 dual action: Double move (focus self and psicrystal)
Rounds 208-217 dual actions: Twin Repeat Metaconcert (dur. 200 rounds - ends after round 417) [167+4320 pp]
Rounds 218-377: Same as 16-175. Schism on 241, 281, 321, 261 [167+1080 pp] [1730 Fate Links]
Round 378: Same as 16 (Affinity Field ends after round 417) [167+1050 pp] [1733 Fate Links]
Rounds 379-401: Same as 17. Schism on 381 only [167+590 pp] [1848 Fate Links]
Round 402: [free] Change into a Jovoc via Shapechange
[swift] Quickened Delay Death (via Instant Metamagic)
DelayedBlastFireball, Empowered, Maximized, Enervated, Energy Substituted, Admixed, Twinned
The initial damage from the fireball is:
20d6
Max-Empowered: 120+10d6
Enervated: 180+15d6
Admixed: 360+30d6 (between 390 and 540)
Twinned: Happens twice, in different packets
Total damage: Between 4.904e6136 and 3.105e8528
Again, I am adding the program in case anyone wants / is able to check it. Now with explanatory comments!
frees up a feat and gives you a symbiont of the bat.
hope this is something new on this thread, or was it used in the original build?
Well, if it hasn't already been stated yet, you could use the Daelkyr Half-Blood race found on pge 37 of Magic of Eberron
frees up a feat and gives you a symbiont of the bat.
hope this is something new on this thread, or was it used in the original build?
I originally used Half-Bloods. I changed them to humans / sun elf for the bonus feats and the int bonus. As you pointed out, Half-Bloods also get a bonus feat. Furthermore, the sun elf's int bonus only gives an extra 6th level slot, but I didn't use all the 6th level slots. Back to Half-Bloods they go. Three extra symbionts won't matter much, but an extra feat for the elf is quite a luxury in case I want to fit something else in.
A few minor changes: I forgot to dismiss Mental Pinnacle. I also forgot to take a dual action on the last round and I didn't need the extra Quickened Delay Death. The last round action should be:
[swift] Quicken Fate Link
[dual move] focus
[dual swift] Quicken Fate Link
[dual] Dismiss MP
[standard] Big ball of flame
On the other hand, I took the dual action twice on round 16. The total number of Fate Links is unchanged from the original.
Adding 3 symbionts to start increases the damage to 2.678e6138 - 8.059e8530. A slight boost.
However, I just found a spell that will let this build's damage jump out of the realm of direct calculation: Blood of the Martyr (Clr 4, BoED p. 92). Go read it. I'll wait.
That's right. The entire result of the recursion becomes the entire initial value for the next time. And I can do that 12 times. The Fate Links I drop to fit the actions in are negligible. I will have to start using heavy approximation and a tower of exponents to express the results. Of course, I will underestimate rather than overestimate.
Can anyone point me the the errata for the BoED before I do this? I can't find it. Wording of the spell is absolutely key here.
I will probably not get to this for a while, but when I do, but if there is no errata, I expect the damage to be on the order of X, where X>a really big number. We're talking Nano-Bombs and Hurlers (and my previous number) for jewelry!
My question is how are you casting this spell 12 times in a round? Quicken alone won't cut it. Maybe Twin Spell? Toss in Delay Spell so you can start casting them early and stack up a bunch to activate on the same round? Have you considered purchasing it as a Contingent Spell (from Complete Arcane)? The number on any individual character is limited to its character level/HD. We could have them as Delayed (Twinned) Contingent spells, have some secondary characters each say the trigger phrase, then re-fuse at the last minute...
Also, I found a possible alternative to Heart of Stone which could really reduce our rate of damping. I know I mentioned Mental Resistance before as a way of giving essentially DR 3/- against psionics, but the trouble was getting all the symbionts to share that capability. Finally remembered a way. The Mirror Move spell from the Spell Compendium which allows characters to mimic [General] feats upon observing them in use by someone else. Luckily, Mental Resistance is a [General] feat, and since Mirror Move is a Personal range spell, all of the symbionts can copy the feat. Slick, eh?
As far as I can tell, there is no errata out for the Book of Exalted Deeds on the main CotC errata web page. You're home-free on this one.
:w00t:
My question is how are you casting this spell 12 times in a round? Quicken alone won't cut it. :snip:
No need to do it in one round. The damage dealt by the last casting will dwarf the damage from all the others. The BotMs could be cast over the course of several minutes. Only the last one deals damage that isn't going to be healed right away by the next BotM. Also, spamming BOB is not nearly as efficient as spamming BotM for damage. Most of the spell slots should be dedicated to BotM. There is some middle ground that is the optimal point, but god only knows how to calculate it.
Also, I found a possible alternative to Heart of Stone which could really reduce our rate of damping. I know I mentioned Mental Resistance before as a way of giving essentially DR 3/- against psionics, but the trouble was getting all the symbionts to share that capability. Finally remembered a way. The Mirror Move spell from the Spell Compendium which allows characters to mimic [General] feats upon observing them in use by someone else. Luckily, Mental Resistance is a [General] feat, and since Mirror Move is a Personal range spell, all of the symbionts can copy the feat. Slick, eh?
I'm not sure. Again, the damage is outside the realm of my intuition. It might be that getting an extra spell slot for yet another BotM trumps all. But without BotM (maybe with it, for all I know), The number of recursion levels on the damage is the top priority. Because spells open up Cooperative Metamagic, HoS+DBF is better there for raw damage.
Another thing I just thought of: persistent spells cast at the end of one day last throughout most of the next day! Cast all BOBs one day and save all spell slots for BotMs the next!
I mentioned several times that I have no idea how to solve the equation for the damage (a nonlinear recurrence equation). Maybe someone really smart can do it. Maybe Mathematica can. Here it is:
S(i)=0 for i <= u
S(i)=r*(n-1)*S(i-e)+(3r*i+i-6r*u-u) for u < i <= 2u
S(i)=(3r*i+i-6r*u-u)+r*(n-1)*S(i-u)+n*r*(r+2)*S(i-2u) for 2u < i
D(i)=2n*S(i)+2n*(r+2)*S(i-u)+(8i-6u)
T(0)=D(m)
T(i)=D(T(i-1)) for i>0
Total damage dealt is T(b), where:
u=amount of energy resistance / damage reduction / whatever aplies
r=number of Fate Links
n=number of Symbionts after BOB cloning
m=damage dealt by initial spell (DBF in this case)
b=number of BotMs cast
Without much deviation from the previous setup, we can be dealing with u=5, r=1825, n=3e76, b=250, m=360+30d6
That is what I mean when I say BIG.
Regarding Mental Resistance, remember that we're copying it via Mirror Move. Therefore, our main characters don't have to possess it: one of our followers should be more than sufficient.
On the mathematical side of things, I will admit to being outmatched. I'll look into getting help from mathematician friends, but I'd appreciate it if one (or some) of the skilled programmers on the CO Boards would be willing to lend a hand, too.
I don't have MoI. Can you tell me in rough terms what it does?
You conjure up a crystal and imbue that crystal with a single psionic power you know, along with power points. Any creature can touch the crystal and manifest that power (using your manifester level) by spending the power points you invested into the crystal. So you spend 13 pp to manifest soul crystal, and then you imbue the crystal with 17 pp and the power Affinity Field. Any creature can touch that and manifest it's own Affinity Field (since AF takes 17 pp, the crystal would run out with a single manifestation).
Wait a minute. psly4mne, are you treating "spells castable in a day" as a limiting factor? Yes, I was. If getting more Blood of the Martyr iterations cast is important, we could always buy a staff or two of said spell. It would cut into our symbiont budget, but it is worth it. That, or cohort-up an artificer helper to not only make a staff, but apply Twin and Repeat to it via Metamagic Item. I was trying to stay away from Artificer, but the Artificer always knows best. Consider Cecil Artificerized: Half-Blood Artificer15/Chameleon2. We have gp-wealth to spare, currently. Well, it is all invested in symbionts at the moment, but that can change. If a staff isn't enough, (the more, the merrier) we can squeeze extra castings in by using the Contingent Spell item option from Complete Arcane. That's twenty BotM more right there. Scrolls are much cheaper - as I said, the BotMs don't have to all come in at the same time. Same goes for Body Outside Body, really. Agreed. Again, scroll rather than contingencies, but items=good
Regarding Mental Resistance, remember that we're copying it via Mirror Move. Therefore, our main characters don't have to possess it: one of our followers should be more than sufficient.
I was saying that the problem with Mental Resistance is that it doesn't apply to spells, and spells deal more far damage than powers in an Incantatrix-heavy situation. However, I just realized that the DR 3/- from Mental Resistance applies against Fate Link!! That means we can have our Metamagic and Mentally Resist it too.
I would switch back to Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, but it can't be Admixed, so DBF stays. By the way, I tried to apply every damage-increasing metamagic I could to the DBF. I know I left out Fiery Spell. Any others?
Conclusion: Mental Resistance + DBF
On the mathematical side of things, I will admit to being outmatched. I'll look into getting help from mathematician friends, but I'd appreciate it if one (or some) of the skilled programmers on the CO Boards would be willing to lend a hand, too.
It would take quite a programmer to brute-force this.Even using dynamic programming as I did, it would take too long to run. Instead, you would have to solve the nonlinear difference equations. That is beyond my capabilities. Mathematica could probably do this without breaking a digital sweat, but I don't have the program.
Also, remember that we can use our cohort's gold as well. They come partially equipped, if I recall correctly, but that's still better than nothing. Should be able to avoid dropping our symbiont count too far, anyhow.
One nice aspect of this is that any clones that have exhausted their Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic abilities and are not needed for Infusions (like, say, Power Surge on the staff of BOB) can Fuse with the original, providing a quick source of power points. (It doesn't cost the fused being any actions.)
Since writing up the routine took so long the first time, I am not going to do it again at least until I have an answer on the damage equations and a rough idea on the BOB vs BotM balance.
In case I again failed to explain the trick sufficiently, the way the BotM loop works is thus:
1. Do the same buildup as before, but save some spell slots.
2. Cast the giant fireball. Everything goes as it did before.
3. Cast BotM, taking the bad guy's damage onto yourself. The Fate Link etc loop goes as it did before, but starts at a much higher number. That means it goes to a much, much higher number**.
4. Repeat step 3 as many times as you can cast BotM
* Rules question: If two characters with Chameleon floating feat Fuse, does the fused being gain both feats, or only one.
class features are pooled (if both creatures have the same ability, the fused being gains it only once).
** The S function, and hence the D function (as define in my earlier post), increases roughly exponentially. Feedback into that is a BIG DEAL.
Also, if we wanted to be even WORSE than we currently are, we could add a simple Share Pain on the enemy (after charming them to comply, perhaps), targeting the Nasty Gentleman as the recipients of the damage. This would result in effectively restarting the entire loop at half-damage with each sub-reverberation. Technically, it's still diminishing and non-infinite!
EDIT: Fusion also says that feats specifically are pooled. I'd argue that they stack, especially if you select different feats for each clone.
on a diffrent line of thinking isint there a spell or special ability that lets you create a hivemind? can you hivemind symbiots?
on a diffrent line of thinking isint there a spell or special ability that lets you create a hivemind? can you hivemind symbiots?
There are two ways for a player to create a hivemind - by using the Dark Speech (limited to creating hiveminds of 100 creatures or less) or the 10th level ability of the Vermin Lord. However, hiveminds can only be formed by animals or vermin, so I don't think symbiotes would make the cut.
Yes, the symbionts would be vulnerable to certain spells, but one of the advantages of symbiosis is that they benefit from the Nasty Gentleman's saves AND buffing-spells to prevent and/or resist such an event.
I thought I read in one of the threads somewhere that there had been a recent errata that limited the number of symbiotes you could have to 1 per HD. Am I smoking something?
Possibly. I won't believe it until I see it in writing. There was a recent ruling limiting certain grafts, as found in Races of the Dragon, and people often confuse grafts and symbionts.
Idea! I'm sure that there are returns from using Shapechange to become a Symboint... Note the fact that symboints have ego scores which can get really high, and that the ego score is the will save DC to not be controlled by the Symboint. Thus, if you can pump your ego score really high then you could get a really high save DC versus your dominance... Hey, I didn't say it was a /good/ idea.
I'm tempted to buy a graft for my evil character too, but I don't know exactly how much they cost as I don't have MoE. I especially like the look of the Soul Tick from the FF (slap it on a character with a mother cyst from LM), but what would it cost to get? I'm thinking that a Planar Binding could get three of them for myself and my two head cultists...
Possibly. I won't believe it until I see it in writing. There was a recent ruling limiting certain grafts, as found in Races of the Dragon, and people often confuse grafts and symbionts.
It was Grafts, I remember it being related to the Races of the Dragon (which I don't own yet).You should also add that thing about ocular spell to the main post.
I'll delete the quill-related offender, though. Good catch.
1.) most Eberronian Symbionts are creature as well as a "magic item" created by the local invaders from Xoriat. Similar to grafts except that they can survive without a host for a time.
2.) the Magic of eberron lists the values and types of the various eberronian symbionts.
3.) This also shows us that the Living breastplate is an artifact level item.
Conveniently this also allows us a a nifty trick or two
a.) Simulacrum and or Ice assasin Duplicates of a living breastplate provide use with large quantities of artifact level Symbionts
b.) Clone and Astral seed restore Symbionts in the even of thier death or destruction
*although i've always wondered what would happen to a character with both a clone and an astral seed, Expecially if you took care to ensire that the casterlevel was the same, the distance between the two were the same, and that both effects were cast/manifested at the exact same time.
....
4.) Apocalypse from the sky is fueled by artifacts.(see i told you i can't stay away from it ;) )
Flaws in this
1.) it is described as an "Artifact level item" rather than an artifact.
Even if you accept 1. you deal with
2.) Duplicates of the item though equal in every other way are not true artifacts.
and
3.) Use of a creature as a material component destroyes its soul preventing restoration (as per the souls as material components.)
It would take quite a programmer to brute-force this.Even using dynamic programming as I did, it would take too long to run. Instead, you would have to solve the nonlinear difference equations. That is beyond my capabilities. Mathematica could probably do this without breaking a digital sweat, but I don't have the program.
Nonlinear difference equation, huh? I'll take a crack at it. No promises though, just by looking at it, it seems a bit above my level of mathematical ability at this point. Curse my lack of programming skills!
[EDIT] BTW, psly4mne, after writing down your equations on a highly advanced sheet of paper, I noticed one variable that you did not explicitly spell out.
S(i)=r*(n-1)*S(i-e)+(3r*i+i-6r*u-u) for u < i <= 2u
In this part of S(i), what exactly is the "e"? Maybe I'm just having a major brain lapse or something, but hey. I ask questions when I don't know what I'm looking at. :P
juggernaughteagle: Great idea. I look forward to seeing the results.
Also has any more work been done on figureing out how much damage you can get this up to?
I'd take a shot at figuring out the programing and calculations if I had a copy of c++ which is the only programing language I know. But I don't and I haven't done any programing in years.
There are substantully larger types of variables than that in c++, but even with them I would need to come up with some creative ways of storing the numbers for calculation. I've thought out a few, but I've yet to do any thing to test them.
The best way to deal with numbers this big is symbolically. Write out the difference equations and solve them using either generating functions or diagonalization. I can help or explain by PM if you want.
Actually it's easier then that, you just have to lose your symbiont, as in, detatch it.
I'd seriously advise becomming immune to ability damage in order to use this build effectively, since attaching a bazillion symbionts will take forever without it.
Restoration would work too, but just becomming immune would be better.
I just found this thread and I LIKE it! I would love to make an Incarnum version of this build (though not as abusive, ultimately) who uses the Dissolving Spittle soulmeld and the Share Soulmeld feat. Ultimately, Share Soulmeld does say in its description that it works with "animal companions, familiars, or mounts." This would seem to prevent use with a symbiont. Any thoughts on how to get around this?
The other advantage of the Incarnate would be the potential to bind a Strongheart Vest, which would allow you to prevent ability damage from removing symbionts. Very nice.
Also I saw Artificer being mentioned a few posts back, could Share Spells ability also include Infusions ? (Natural Weapon Augmentation for example)
Basically, they are nice buffs that generally grant some kind of special attack or a bonus and last 1 minute per level. The tastiest ones for use with symbiotes are...
Spined Devil (lvl 2): Each symbiot can launch 3 spines per round (1d6+str damage).
Chain Devil (lvl 3): +5' reach and an extra attack of opportunity.
Amnizu (lvl 4): Touch attack for Int damage.
Narzugon (lvl 5): Paralysis gaze attack.
Ice Devil (lvl 7): Adds 1d6 cld damage to attacks and a slowing effect.
Horned Devil (lvl 8): Stun effect on the first attack of each round.
Hellfrie Engine (lvl 9): 8d10 breath weapon.
Pit Fiend (lvl 9): Loads of goodies... 2 wing and 2 claw attacks, Strength drain AoE attack and a nice fear effect.
The most broken spell of all is...
Investiture of the Steel Devil (lvl 4): +3 hit/AC, plus an extra +1 for every adjacent creature also affected by the spell (no limit!).
... you become basically impossible to hit and your symbotes (who usualy suffer a bit for attack bonus) will rarely miss.
Enjoy,
Lord Kiwi,
My question for you guys is this:are Parasites that are within your body even subject to attack of any kind or do they have full Cover/Concealment?
for awesomeness.Not for the numbers, but for style.
The Unnatural Gentleman: Druid 14/Master of Radiance 1/Impure Prince 5
Venomfire. Extra Spell: Divine Power. Divine Metamagic. Energy Admixture and Twin. The Tentacle Whip symbiont has a built-in poison attack. 76d6 per attack times 4 attacks per tentacle times 7,600 tentacles. We're averaging 8 million damage a round, and that's not even optimized.
:OMG!
Ok, Im Necro-ing, but dont hate me, this is the thread that will attract the most educated answers.
Ive sifted through all the crazy math and stuff, and have not found the answers I need:
1. Is there anyway to stop the Fiendish Symbionts from forcing that make-will-save-or-commit-an-evil-act thing , on a True Neutral character?
If not, will one evil act per day satisfy all the demands of each Symbiont, or will each need to be placated individually?
2.Are spells cast by a Host vis an item subject to the Share Spells ability?Wouldnt think so, but would like to hear the consensuses opinion.
To put this in context, I was looking for things for my cleric to Call with Lesser Planar Binding or Lesser Spirit Binding(acquired via Greater Anyspell) that could be gainfully enslaved via Oath of Blood(Heroes of Horror).
I think the Symbionts could work as Lesser Geased/Oath of Blood controlled Bone or Flesh Creatures,or be controlled some other way( I actually ditched turning :P )but I really want to avoid being Undead( making shared healing spells counter-productive), and I want to only commit Evil acts when I feel like it is worthwhile , not under the influence of my pets.
Lesser Spirit Binding should give me as many Ghostly Visages as I can stand, but control could be a problem.
Any input is welcome, thank you.
C++ Integers are limited to less than 2^15 (about 32,000), if memory serves, though with enough ingenuity you might be able to define a custom type that could handle the size of the numbers being dealt with here.
Heh. That happened to me once. Now I use Strings and have a function that adds them. Kinda like a custom type, but not really.
C++ Integers are limited to less than 2^15 (about 32,000), if memory serves, though with enough ingenuity you might be able to define a custom type that could handle the size of the numbers being dealt with here.
The size of integers is actually not explicitly defined for c++, however most compilers use 4 bytes for integers which gives a max value of (2^32)/2 - 1 for the max value, which is slightly over 2 billion. If you made it unsigned you could double that.
You could write your own integer class for dealing with large ints without too much trouble, although if you're lazy like me you could just use java which already has a BigInteger class for just such occasions.
:D