http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-695081
EDIT - Looks like fixing the WSoD is not on the table.
Luckily InnaBinder has provided the web.archive location ...
Infinity THANKS to Innabinder.
http://web.archive.org/web/20061112212706/boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546612
Swe - ee - eet.
**
12-03-05, 06:40 AM
LordofProcrastination LordofProcrastination is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Default The Omniscificer: A Rational Solution to the Pun-Pun Problem
I, LordofProcrastination, being of sound mind and rhetoric, hereby present a solution to the Kobold menace.
Moreover, I intend to do it with a 4th level character. Think I'm crazy? We'll see.
Disclaimer 1:
I intend this thread to be an intelligent and rational debate. To this end, I am organizing my solution into labeled premises. This will help readers to both follow my logic and, if necessary, dispute it in an orderly fashion.
Disclaimer 2:
I admire Khan the Destroyer and his creation, Pun Pun. I was one of the very first to congratulate Khan on his creation, and hold them both in high regard. The very nature of Pun Pun's magnificence has inspired me to challenge it, not some petty jealousy or misunderstanding. I have read all of the relevant Pun Pun threads. Please consider this disclaimer as a good reason not to resort to ad-hominem assaults or generic assertions of invincibility.
Background Understanding
[Premise 1] Once a character becomes nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipotent such as Pun-Pun is, circumstances make it impossible for new threats to arise. This is because said nigh-omniscient/omnipotent character would know about any new potential threats and have the capability to quash them before they have a chance to mature.
[Premise 2] With enough time, experience, etc, pretty much any moderately optimized character could become nigh-infinitely powerful. What is impressive about Pun-Pun is that this power level is accomplished with alarming speed, i.e. at level 5.
[Premise 3] Thus, the only accurate way to compare two or more nigh-omniscient characters would be to evaluate the amount of time it takes for these characters to reach their ultimate state.
[Premise 4] Controlling for DM temperament and nonmechanical circumstances, as we must on the Character Optimization Boards, experience points obtained is the best way of comparing timeframes between characters. If character experience point levels are the same, then round-by-round analysis of capability curves would be necessary.
The Omniscificer:
Race: Elf
Class: Artificer 4
Feats: Elf Dilettante (1st level), Brew Potion (Artificer 2), Craft Wondrous Item (Artificer 3), Magical Artisan [Craft Wondrous Item] (3rd level), Legendary Artisan (Artificer 4)
UMD Bonus:
Code:
+2 Masterwork tool (circumstance)
+3 Item Enhancement (circumstance)
+4 Charisma
+2 Eagle's Splendor (slightly more Cha)
+7 Ranks
+6 Cloak of the Artificer (competence)
----
+24 (high enough to automatically succeed on all creation-relevant UMD checks
Items: (rather extensive calculations)
Spoiler:
Boots of the Resilient Worker (Single Use, Use-Activated) [CRAFTED x4]
- Spell replicated: Delay Death
- Base cost: Caster level (5) x Spell level (3) x Single Use, Use Activated (50) x Skill Required (0.9) x Class Required, Expert (0.7) = 473 gp
- Gold to create: Base (473) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (0.5) = 174 gp
- XP to create: Base (473) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Legendary Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (1/25) = 11 xp
Boots of the Resilient Mastermind (Single Use, Use-Activated) [CRAFTED x1]
- Spell replicated: Delay Death
- Base cost: Caster level (5) x Spell level (3) x Single Use, Use Activated (50) x Skill Required (0.9) x Class Required, Artificer (0.7) = 473 gp
- Gold to create: Base (473) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (0.5) = 174 gp
- XP to create: Base (473) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Legendary Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (1/25) = 11 xp
Goggles of the Martyr (Single Use, Use-Activated) [PURCHASED x1]
- Spell replicated: Glory of the Martyr
- Base cost: Caster level (7) x Spell level (4) x Single Use, Use Activated (50) x Skill Required (0.9) x Class Required, Artificer (0.7) = 882 gp
- Gold to create: Base (882) x Crafting (0.5) = 441 gp
- XP to create: Base (882) x Crafting (1/25) = 36 xp
Bracers of Sharing and Caring (Single Use, Use-Activated) [PURCHASED x4]
- Power replicated: Share Pain
- Base cost: Manifester level (3) x Power level (2) x Single Use, Use Activated (50) x Skill Required (0.9) x Class Required, Expert (0.7) = 189 gp
- Gold to create: Base (189) x Crafting (0.5) = 95 gp
- XP to create: Base (189) x Crafting (1/25) = 8 xp
Gloves of the Painlord (Single Use, Use-Activated) [CRAFTED x1]
- Spell replicated: Masochism
- Base cost: Caster level (5) x Spell level (2) x Single Use, Use Activated (50) x Skill Required (0.9) x Class Required, Artificer (0.7) = 315 gp
- Gold to create: Base (315) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (0.5) = 119 gp
- XP to create: Base (315) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Legendary Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (1/25) = 8 xp
Amulet of the Beast (Single Use, Use-Activated) [CRAFTED x1]
- Spell replicated: Beastland Ferocity
- Base cost: Caster level (2) x Spell level (1) x Single Use, Use Activated (50) x Skill Required (0.9) x Class Required, Artificer (0.7) = 63 gp
- Gold to create: Base (63) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (0.5) = 24 gp
- XP to create: Base (63) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Legendary Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (1/25) = 2 xp
Masterwork Tool, Use Magic Device [PURCHASED x1]
- Per the PHB, 50 gp
Cloak of the Artificer [CRAFTED x1]
- Gives a +6 Competence bonus to Use Magic Device
- Base cost: Bonus Squared (6^2 = 36) x 100 x Skill Required (0.9) x Class Required, Artificer (0.7) = 2,268
- Gold to create: Base (2,268) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (0.5) = 851 gp
- XP to create: Base (2,268) x Magical Artisan (0.75) x Legendary Artisan (0.75) x Crafting (1/25) = 51 xp
Ring of Calling to Collect (Single use, use-activated) [PURCHASED x1]
- Spell replicated: Sending
- Base cost: Caster level (7) x Spell level (4) x Single Use, Use Activated (50) x Skill Required (0.9) x Class Required, Artificer (0.7) = 882 gp
- Gold to create: Base (882) x Crafting (0.5) = 441 gp
- XP to create: Base (882) x Crafting (1/25) = 36 xp
Total Gold Spent: 174x4 + 174x1 + 882x1 + 189x4 + 119x1 + 24x1 + 50x1 + 851x1 +882x1 = 3409 gp (of 5400 gp at 4th level)
Total XP: 11x4 + 11x1 + 8x1 + 2x1 + 51x1= 116 xp (well within craft reserve)
The Combination
[Premise 5] Having procured his items by money or self-industry, the Omniscificer equips himself and then pays a handful of gold for the services of three trained hirelings. By selecting hirelings of a certain profession, he obtains the temporary aid of four experts, all of whom possess a chosen skill, enabling their use of the Boots of the Resilient Worker.
[Premise 6] The Omniscificer lends a pair of Boots of the Resilient Worker and a pair of Bracers of Sharing and Caring to each of the hirelings, and asks them to put them on, but not activate them until his signal. The Omniscificer then activates his items in order such that Glory of the Martyr, then Beastland's Ferocity, then Masochism, then Delay Death are working. Upon activating Masochism, he gives the signal for the hirelings to activate their items, bracers first. Now there are four Share Pain effects active, all oriented Omniscificer => Hirelings. Everyone involved has their own Delay Death spell active as well.
[Premise 7] The Omniscificer tosses himself off of a nearby 80 ft cliff, deliberately fails his Jump check, and takes 8-48 damage. This sets off a Perpetual Damage Mechanism, and the hirelings immediately pass out. Instantly, the Omniscificer is sustaining an infinite amount of damage.
Disclaimer 3:
If you are unfamiliar with this mechanism, please read about it in the second of my "LoP's Dirty Tricks" articles, The Perpetual Damage Machine. Likewise, please direct all comments and questions about the infinite damage loop involved here to that thread. For the purposes of this thread, you need to understand that the Omniscificer is sustaining infinite damage for as long as his Glory of the Martyr spell is active, and let's move on.
[Premise 8] The round after falling, the Omniscificer's masochism spell grants him a +1 bonus on skill checks, attack rolls, and saving throws per 10 damage sustained. Since he sustained infinite damage last round, he now has +Infinity to these stats. That's right, not "nigh-infinity," or "limitless," it's really "infinity infinity."
[Premise 9] Thanks to his Elf Dilettante spell, the Omniscificer is free to attempt any skill check he desires at a +Infinity bonus. The Omniscificer uses this opportunity to learn everything. The Knowledge skills require no action to activate, and every check in any of the broad categories instantly reveals everything there is to know about the subject. Thus, in a flash of an eye, the Omniscificer becomes perfectly omniscient.
[Premise 10] Since the Omniscificer can know an infinite amount, and the D&D multiverse contains a finite amount of information (thanks to the limitations of published material), the Omniscificer knows every combination of action possible. Going by the sample topics, the Omniscificer knows everything there is to know about every type of creature. The Omniscificer knows the vulnerabilities of every creature that exists or might exist.
[Premise 11a] Knowing everything, the Omniscificer knows about the dangerous possibilities presented by some shapechanging kobold wandering elsewhere. Knowing all of this kobold's weaknesses, as he does any creature's weaknesses, the Omniscificer also knows what steps can be taken to ensure the destruction of either the kobold in question or the necessary stepping stones to full power in its path.
[Premise 11b] Though the Omniscificer's knowledge is infinite, it does not require "all knowledge" to successfully predict the pun-pun trick. Eager to make his power permanent, the Omniscificer conducts knowledge checks regarding all spells, items, abilities, powers, etc, in the multiverse. There is a finite number of spells/items/abilities/etc, due to the limited number and length of WotC publications. Next, he makes knowledge checks regarding the results of combining every one of these capabilities. He is now aware of every trick and loop made available through the combination of WotC spells/items/abilities/etc. This includes the pun-pun/manipulate form combination.
[Premise 11c] Knowing the pun pun combination, the Omniscificer is then able to determine the assorted factors and capabilities that must converge in any given character/circumstance for the combination to be activated. These characteristics include the capacity to transform into a Sarruhk, the presence of an ally/minion to set up the original manipulate-form exchange, the knowledge-availability/ingenuity necessary to become cognizant of the combo, and a host of other enabling factors.
[Premise 11d] Knowing all of the factors necessary to activate the pun-pun/manipulate form combination, and furthermore knowing everything about every creature in existence, and normalizing by the "Background Understanding" assumptions, the Omniscificer knows that Pun Pun the Kobold is the creature possessing the most factors for being the first/next to activate the manipulate form combination. Since the vast array of factors must converge in a single character for the combination to occur, and Premises 1-4 establish that the combination has yet to occur, it is quite reasonable with infinite knowledge to identify differentiating factors that set Pun Pun the Kobold as the primary target of the Omniscificer's efforts.
[Premise 12a] The methodology of preventing the rise of Pun Pun is mostly irrelevant. The important thing is that the Omniscificer knows how to get it done. For imagination's sake, this could mean leveraging his intimate familiarity with all secrets to induce local rulers to hunt down and kill Pun Pun. This might mean that the Omniscificer knows the ancient riddle answer necessary to unlock a powerful creature that may act in gratitude. This might mean that the Omniscificer's infinite knowledge of the planes means that he knows exactly where to find a handy artifact. Like I said, the important thing is that against infinite knowledge, one potential cosmic threat as a 4th level character doesn't stand a chance.
[Premise 12b] After identifying the threat, the Omniscificer knows exactly how to prevent the activation of the pun-pun combination. For the sake of proving surety of this method without reliance on the manipulate form combination itself or excessive DM intervention, I will outline a few possible options that the Omniscificer could pursue.
[Premise 12c] The first step is the addition of an item enabling remote communication, ala sending or correspond. A single-use, use-activated item based on either of these is well within the Omniscificer's remaining budget, and would enable direct communication with the gods and/or beings directly under the remote-senses and/or control of the gods. It's worth noting that the argument presented by a number of participants in this thread that the Omniscificer can immediately attract the attention of the gods through the use of an infinite Perform (god-attracting-haiku) check, or other such skill-based mechanism, still has validity. However, since the presence of an item enabling no-save contact with a god of choice helps remove uncertainty, let's run with that.
[Premise 12d] Sending and correspond enable communication-based interaction, which is the primary requisite for social skill use. After coming into communication with a deity of choice, the Omniscificer can use his assorted infinite social skills (Bluff/Diplomacy/Perform/Intimidate/etc) to ensure that the contacted god immediately does a number of things for the Omniscifer.
* After selecting a god with Alter Reality, have the god make all of the Omniscificer's spells/powers permanent. Yay for continually-updating omniscience and eternally infinite skills.
* Make the god come to the Omniscificer and make him a Divine Proxy. Divine Rank 1 goes a long way towards finishing off all possible activators of the pun-pun combination, especially because it entails greater teleportation at will.
* If we are being setting-specific, pick Shar and ask her to give the archetypal form trait to the Sarruhk. This is based on Catharz's assertion that Shar can do thus. Corroboration would be nice, if anyone can provide that.
* Alternately, we could go for Set, the current head-god of the remaining sarruhk (through his fabricated Sseth aspect), and have him slaughter all of his worshippers.
Even if the god-meditated genocide or archetypal neutering don't seem "realistic enough" to convince you, it should be readily apparent that the mechanics of permanent infinite skills, instant transportation, and divine rank should be more than sufficient to assuredly dispose of potential activators of the pun-pun combination. Furthermore, brute destruction of potential activators is only the simplest of options available, and not even the most efficient at that. Mass memory-alteration, history revision, having the deity to whom Pun Pun is a divine minion removing said status, and limitation of certain magics/psionics altogether are all possible.
In short, once we have obtained the services of a god combined with infinite knowledge, there are few, if any, mechanical challenges remaining for the Omniscificer's mission.
[Premise 13] Whether the Omniscificer chooses to act on his knowledge is a matter of character design and player's intent, not DM fiat. For the sake of simplicity, let's set the theoretical player's design to be such that this character does not wish to be surpassed. Call it the LoP default to paranoid self-preservation.
[Premise 14] After obtaining infinite knowledge, the Omniscificer dismisses Glory of the Martyr, lets the damage loop end, and puts his head into a pond until he starts to drown. Due to a quirk in the DMG drowning rules, this sets the Omniscificer back at 0 hit points, and his contingent Cure Minor Wounds kicks in to put him back to normal (plus infinite knowledge), and he can begin to take action as he sees necessary.
Wrap-Up and FAQ
[Premise 15] I posit that this combination is one of the quickest routes to omniscience available. While not as versatile as Pun-Pun's manipulate form trick, this character "gets there" first, and is thus pretty much guaranteed to stay on top.
[Premise 16] Other than speed, the Omniscificer has a leg-up on Pun Pun in thoroughness. That is to say, the Omniscificer can obtain actually infinite stats, rather than nigh-infinite or limitless capabilities.
[Premise 17] Some people will probably conjecture that this combination is just beating up on a poor 4th level kobold wizard, hardly an impressive feat. I beg to differ. The difference is primarily intent and guarantee. Compared to all other situations, the Omniscificer is the only way to see Pun-Pun's ascent coming and know how to stop him without relying on the fuzzy DM adjudication of godly intervention/nonintervention.
[Premise 18] It is possible that some people may attempt to take a misguided "hard line mechanical" stance against my rather tame interpretation of the reasonable effects of infinite knowledge and say that one cannot derive any in-game use from knowledge checks. May I point you to the PHB, where we can find the following describing the outcome of Knowledge Checks: "For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information." With an infinite knowledge bonus, you exceed any finite DC by an infinite amount, resulting in an infinite number of pieces of useful information.
[Premise 19] The Omniscificer method is also more robust than a number of the other Pun-Pun challenge scenarios in that it evaluates both of the characters from the same standing point in time, rather than relying on giving the challenger a temporal headstart. Even better, this build is capable of fully assessing and meeting the Pun-Pun threat without using what is essentially metagame knowledge of Pun Pun and his powers and capabilities gleaned from the character optimization boards.
[Premise 20] Yes, I know about the direct time-travel spell. It doesn't negatively affect this combination. Pun Pun has to obtain full power before he can cast that spell, and the Omniscificer knows how to stop the so-bold kobold before he reaches that power level, and thus time travel never enters the picture. At least not until the Omniscificer gets around to vacationing around the space-time continuum later on...
[Premise 21a] While I have argued for the identification of "necessary factors" for activation of the pun-pun combination as a simple method for choosing the largest/most-immediate threat of kobold ascension (in Premise 11), I would also like to assert the validity of the alternate, if cheesier, method. This would be making Knowledge(prophecy) or Knowledge(the future) or Knowledge(probabilistic situational evaluation) checks, and reaping the direct benefits. Though it is true that D&D's roll-based system injects a measure of uncertainty in event-by-event interactions involving characters, there is no denying the feasibility of future-determination within this heavily magical, and moreover, story-based, multiverse.
[Premise 21b] The fact that DM permission is required to introduce non-typical Knowledge fields is not a barrier to the use of this option in a Character Optimization scenario. DM's permission is required to take a prestige class (DMG 176), use Forgotten Realms setting material, and pretty much any material whatsoever from any book. Assuming a neutral, complicit DM is a necessity for advanced Character Optimization comparisons.
[Premise 22] On multiplicity. Some have argued that there could be a countless amount of 4th level kobolds out there on the crux of accomplishing the pun-pun combination, and thus would be impossible to identify and target any one of them. This argument leads into an endless spiral of reciprocal, equally unfounded counter-arguments. By that logic, we could say that there is a similarly countless number amount of elf artificers to match. For the sake of accurately comparing character/build capabilities, it is necessary to avoid this escalation.
[Premise 23] As another "clearing the ground" point, there is the question of information assimilation. The boringly easy answer to this issue, which would be significant only in real life, is to realize that information assimilation is actually developing knowledge of the interrelations between data points. Knowledge of interrelations in or between subjects is a matter that can be resolved simply with another knowledge check, of which the Omniscificer has no shortage of capacity for.
Disclaimer 4:
I hope you've all enjoyed my faster, smoother way of pre-empting the Pun Pun problem for any given multiverse. I encourage comments and criticisms of any sort as you wish, but please, if you would like to object to anything, please organize your objections by premise. I wouldn't want to think I did all that ugly prefacing for nothing.
Special Note
In case you missed it earlier, the infinite loop the Omniscificer relies upon can be found in my recent Perpetual Damage Machine Dirty Trick thread.
Show
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-840758.html
and this is page 2
09-30-06, 11:40 AM
Pun-Pun must still have a window of vulnerability while he is shapechanging and using the first few Manipulate Forms. If the Omniscificer can achieve infnite skills quickly enough, then killing Pun-Pun in the few remaining rounds should be easy.
Couldn't punpun just have his psicrystal/familar use manipulate form on itself to get access to timestop as a SLA? Pun-pun can wait until he's unable to be attacked before he goes unconcious.
HaikenEdge
09-30-06, 11:45 AM
Couldn't punpun just have his psicrystal/familar use manipulate form on itself to get access to timestop as a SLA? Pun-pun can wait until he's unable to be attacked before he goes unconcious.
After granting his psicrystal manipulate form, Pun could immediately grant the familiar Ice Assassin as an SLA at will. Dispel the polymorph anything, psicrystal's no longer unconscious (constructs can't go unconscious), and it can immediate Ice Assassin an deity, who can then defend Pun-Pun while he ascends... Sneaky?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
09-30-06, 01:39 PM
If indeed it is possible for pun-pun to ascend before 4th level then the entire premise on which the omnificer relies is broken. The omnificer requires crafting time, but that is waived by the fact that he is at lower XP than the 5th level pun-pun. The same logic may be applied to pun-pun.
Bravo -- even the omnificer build has been destroyed.
Mystyk
10-01-06, 03:05 AM
I'll rely on the fact that Knowledge skills can't be made untrained...so, unless a 4th level Artificer has enough ranks to put .5 rank in every imaginable and unimaginable Knowledge skill, then he wouldn't know of every way to understand and counter the illegal Pun-Pun anyway. Planar, Nature, Arcana, maybe Religion, possibly a few others, would be all that's needed to get most of what you wanted, though. However, I'm still set that manipulate forms doesn't grant spells (the Time Stop and Ice Assassin that's required to obtain god-hood), so trying to "beat Pun-Pun at his own game" so to speak, wouldn't be possible either, since neither would be allowed to do as such under those premises. Also, Manipulate Form doesn't grant near infinite ability scores, they just max out at a Sarrukh's max for each corresponding score. Increasing it otherwise is up to class levels, magic, and other much less dramatic increases. Don't count on the "all-knowing" to be able to try that...
Tempest Stormwind
10-01-06, 11:38 AM
I'll rely on the fact that Knowledge skills can't be made untrained...so, unless a 4th level Artificer has enough ranks to put .5 rank in every imaginable and unimaginable Knowledge skill, then he wouldn't know of every way to understand and counter the illegal Pun-Pun anyway. You obviously haven't read the thread. He's using the Elf Dilettante feat, which says that you can make any skill check as if it were a trained check.Planar, Nature, Arcana, maybe Religion, possibly a few others, would be all that's needed to get most of what you wanted, though. Good thing they're all treated as trained, then.However, I'm still set that manipulate forms doesn't grant spells (the Time Stop and Ice Assassin that's required to obtain god-hood),It does explicitly grant spell-like abilities, though. so trying to "beat Pun-Pun at his own game" so to speak, wouldn't be possible either, since neither would be allowed to do as such under those premises.SLAs don't let you use spells? News to me. Also, Manipulate Form doesn't grant near infinite ability scores, they just max out at a Sarrukh's max for each corresponding score.This is dead wrong, and has been rebutted no fewer than twelve times so far. For ****'s sake, READ THE THREAD before arguing.
Khan the Destroyer
10-01-06, 01:47 PM
MystyK, I really implore you to read over these things before you critique them. If your intent is to really make sure they actually work the way they do... it would really help your cause to familiarize yourself with the subject matter.
Also, Tempest, are you alright? I don't think I've seen you get upset like that before
.Tempest Stormwind
10-01-06, 02:00 PM
Also, Tempest, are you alright? I don't think I've seen you get upset like that before
.Classwork is just picking up, that's all. I've got the lightest courseload, so it really *shouldn't* be getting to me, but I've seen no fewer than five of my friends snap from stress so far. And it's not even the end of September. Fourth-year physics does this to people.
That, and willing ignorance is one of the few things that I've never been able to accept.
strange_person
10-01-06, 05:19 PM
After granting his psicrystal manipulate form, Pun could immediately grant the familiar Ice Assassin as an SLA at will. Dispel the polymorph anything, psicrystal's no longer unconscious (constructs can't go unconscious), and it can immediate Ice Assassin an deity, who can then defend Pun-Pun while he ascends... Sneaky?
Well, the DM might well rule that since Manipulate Form doesn't work on constructs, the psicrystal loses it's Manipulated SLAs along with the status condition.
My suggestion about the Phane hit-man would still work… as far as I know, it's the only creature in core with Spell Stowaway: Time Stop.
Pun-Pun has his Ice Assasin'd-god doing guard duty, and he's already under a Divine Sheild and whatever buff spells the god can come up with, and under a Dimension Lock and Wall of Force, so he feels relatively safe. Just to be extra careful, he has his pet crystal stop time so he can grant himself near-infinite power without anyone interfering.
Unknown to him, a nearby Phane (called up by a long-forgotten incantation the Omniscificer managed to reconstruct, sheilded from divine senses by a divine sheild courtesy of whichever secret-seeking diety the Omnisicficer managed to contact) also steps outside the flow of time and charges toward the Sanctum Puntorum weilding a +1 spell-storing Gauntlet charged with Disintigrate, which discharges on contact with the wall, as the first attack in a full attack routine.
For an epic monster with multiple natural attacks, dealing enough damage to bring down a divine sheild with the rest of the attack routine is relatively easy. The temporal stasis aura brings down the psicrystal, and Pun-Pun himself, laying there unconscious, is a sucker for a CDG.
Then, 5 minutes later in an entirely different multiverse, another Pun-Pun comes along and Omniscificer and Pals are off to save the world again, with head-explodey mystical experiences and gratuitous violence in bullet time.
Mystyk
10-02-06, 09:32 AM
MystyK, I really implore you to read over these things before you critique them. If your intent is to really make sure they actually work the way they do... it would really help your cause to familiarize yourself with the subject matter.
I did as such...However, unfortunately, I read it well over a few weeks ago, and got caught up in your thread's conversations to comment. By then, I had forgotten about some of the vital specifics (I wondered why I didn't think anything on it the first time I read it, lol). My comments about this thread was entirely my error, but at least I'm willing to admit my errors...
You obviously haven't read the thread. He's using the Elf Dilettante feat, which says that you can make any skill check as if it were a trained check.Good thing they're all treated as trained, then.It does explicitly grant spell-like abilities, though.SLAs don't let you use spells? News to me.This is dead wrong, and has been rebutted no fewer than twelve times so far. For ****'s sake, READ THE THREAD before arguing.
Elf Dilettane...like I said, forgotten about it, and that it was my error entirely. However, as far as I know, every spell isn't converted to an SLA (and I can't seem to find anything on the rules for such, other than SLA are just like normal spells without components). So, as far as I can tell from anything, Time Stop and Ice Assassin aren't SLAs, and, unless there's something somewhere that states that all spells can be turned into SLAs, then you can't get them as SLAs, and abuse them for god-hood.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-03-06, 01:03 AM
The archmage can turn any spell 1-9 into an SLA. That will suffice for pun-pun.
Khan the Destroyer
10-03-06, 02:14 AM
unless there's something somewhere that states that all spells can be turned into SLAs
The archmage can turn any spell 1-9 into an SLA.
Beautiful.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-03-06, 03:19 AM
Even more beautiful is his ability to replicate any spell effect 1-9 as a std action without components using alter reality. So he can indeed create an ice-assassin in a single std action and he need not have an ice statue or the biological components of the creature being replicated. It has merely been assumed that the creature being replicated must have existed in the creator's personal reference frame, though this is not stated in the RAW.
The_Mad_Linguist
10-03-06, 07:35 AM
Well, the DM might well rule that since Manipulate Form doesn't work on constructs, the psicrystal loses it's Manipulated SLAs along with the status condition.
My suggestion about the Phane hit-man would still work… as far as I know, it's the only creature in core with Spell Stowaway: Time Stop.
Pun-Pun has his Ice Assasin'd-god doing guard duty, and he's already under a Divine Sheild and whatever buff spells the god can come up with, and under a Dimension Lock and Wall of Force, so he feels relatively safe. Just to be extra careful, he has his pet crystal stop time so he can grant himself near-infinite power without anyone interfering.
Unknown to him, a nearby Phane (called up by a long-forgotten incantation the Omniscificer managed to reconstruct, sheilded from divine senses by a divine sheild courtesy of whichever secret-seeking diety the Omnisicficer managed to contact) also steps outside the flow of time and charges toward the Sanctum Puntorum weilding a +1 spell-storing Gauntlet charged with Disintigrate, which discharges on contact with the wall, as the first attack in a full attack routine.
For an epic monster with multiple natural attacks, dealing enough damage to bring down a divine sheild with the rest of the attack routine is relatively easy. The temporal stasis aura brings down the psicrystal, and Pun-Pun himself, laying there unconscious, is a sucker for a CDG.
The Phan reaches down to do a CDG... and finds it does no damage. In confusion he tries again and again, but to no avail. Pun-Pun isn't harmed or inconvienenced in the least.
You see, the first ability Pun-Pun gave himself was the aleax's. And now the only one that can harm him is himself
Khan the Destroyer
10-03-06, 01:53 PM
You see, the first ability Pun-Pun gave himself was the aleax's. And now the only one that can harm him is himself
Well, to avoid any debate about whether or not he can be his own target, Pun-Pun actually just uses a Simulacrum or something similar (Ice Assassin). Since the creature is under his control, it will never harm him. And it is the only creature that ever could.
The_Mad_Linguist
10-03-06, 03:45 PM
Well, to avoid any debate about whether or not he can be his own target, Pun-Pun actually just uses a Simulacrum or something similar (Ice Assassin). Since the creature is under his control, it will never harm him. And it is the only creature that ever could.
Might as well make it the psicrystal. Make the only thing that can harm it Pun-Pun, just for completeness (and to forestall any questions as to what happens to the ability when the singular enemy dies)
Khan the Destroyer
10-04-06, 02:02 PM
Might as well make it the psicrystal. Make the only thing that can harm it Pun-Pun, just for completeness (and to forestall any questions as to what happens to the ability when the singular enemy dies)
Good call, Pun-Pun can make the psicrystal his Singular Enemy.
If the crystal is ever destroyed, we can argue about what happens to the Singular Enemy AND how he gets the psicrystal back ;).
Tempest Stormwind
10-04-06, 03:15 PM
Minor issue with the psicrystal: We get the argument of the psicrystal being part of the manifester. I can't declare my left hand as my singular enemy. (There's barely enough precedent for people to argue for that; I think that it won't hold but the simulacrum dodges the argument altogether).
Khan the Destroyer
10-04-06, 10:19 PM
Fair enough. Ice Assassin it is
.strange_person
10-06-06, 10:14 AM
Good call, Pun-Pun can make the psicrystal his Singular Enemy.
If the crystal is ever destroyed, we can argue about what happens to the Singular Enemy AND how he gets the psicrystal back ;).
Okay. So the only thing that can harm Pun-Pun, right from day 1, is his own psicrystal? The Omnisicificer will, obviously, succeed at a Knowledge check to remember this (and before anyone starts to argue that nobody but Pun-Pun would know, remember that the Omniscificer can directly percieve anything that's happening on the same plane, and read minds without magic. Also, Omni can recall and correlate prophecies and the results of divination spells to deduce information about things that haven't happened yet) and tell the Phane to smash Pun-Pun's head in with the shiny rock.
Or, alternatively, to smash the shiny rock itself, causing Pun-Pun to disappear forever and the psicrystal's soul to be brought before it's patron diety for judgement. But wait! The psicrystal is really just a distorted copy of it's master, who no longer has a patron diety on account of he no longer exists! So the psicrystal's soul (does it even have a soul?) just vanishes into the far realm, never to trouble the mortal world again, or something.
If he picks a different Singular Enemy, it's even simpler. Omni finds that person or creature and fast-talks some god into killing them. Singular Enemy dead –> Pun-Pun disappears forever. For a simulacrum, it should be a simple matter of Dispel Magic, or overwhelming physical force.
Also: the Omniscificer's power is so great, he can refine his own pain into physical form and give it life by channeling it through a human shell! A Blood Golem of Hextor can be created with a single DC 40 Knowledge (religion) check to make a successful sacrifice, and the plate armor can be fabricated (with infinite craft skil) from the iron present in leftover blood as a single full-round action. Enchanting it properly takes a little longer, but who can argue with the ability to instantly transform willing followers into bloodsucking golems, even in a dead magic zone?
Willing followers, of course, are easy. Even without infinite diplomacy skill, the Omnisicificer can transform raw ore into top-quality finished goods with a single touch, and always knows exactly what everyone needs the most (infinite sense motive).
If things somehow go wrong, the Omniscificer can run from the angry mob along the most efficient and stealthy possible route (Knowlede: Local, Hide, MS) and by the time they find him, he's transmuted some rancid berries and pig excrement into a banquet fit for a dozen kings (Survival (providing food while traveling overland) and Profession (cook)).
Tempest Stormwind
10-06-06, 10:26 AM
Strange person, you do realize that it's just as easy to grant Singular Enemy to whatever Pun-Pun uses as his singular enemy, right? So, Pun-Pun could only be harmed by That Lizard, say, while That Lizard can only be harmed by Pun-Pun.
HaikenEdge
10-06-06, 10:38 AM
Therefore, if Pun-Pun ascends prior to the Omniscificer, the Omniscifer's knowledge check result will be "Destroy Pun-Pun: Impossible."
Khan the Destroyer
10-06-06, 12:45 PM
The theory behind the Omniscificer is that he gains infinite power before Pun-Pun (by one level) and that he also knows that Pun-Pun will ascend in the future. So he can stop him before it happens.
Following that line of logic, if Pun-Pun can gain infinite power at level 1 (or at least before level 4), he has some levels worth of time to stop the Omniscificer before he ascends.
And if the Omniscificer can roll a Knowledge check to figure out how to kill Pun-Pun, then Pun-Pun can roll a Knowledge check to figure out how to kill the Omniscificer.
Conclusion: Pun-Pun beats the Omniscificer at his own game, and prevents the ascencion of the Omniscificer.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-06-06, 12:54 PM
That's correct Khan,
This is a dark day indeed for the anti-pun-pun camp. Not to toot my own horn, but I think that the only hope now lies in temporal trickery. Like the original terminator, this build just was not robust enough to stand up to the evolutionary ability of the pun-pun challenge.
*sigh*
Khan the Destroyer
10-06-06, 12:58 PM
TG, the fate of the multiverse rests in your hands.
Help us TG-Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope.
I'm not sure if we can still get Pun-Pun at level 1. We need Assume Supernatural Ability.
HaikenEdge
10-06-06, 02:42 PM
Is Pun-Pun @ level 3 fast enough? I'm pretty sure he can make the check by then, and he'd have the extra feat to burn.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-06-06, 10:41 PM
TG, the fate of the multiverse rests in your hands.
Help us TG-Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope.
I'm not sure if we can still get Pun-Pun at level 1. We need Assume Supernatural Ability.
Sarcasm aside, this is still sig-able material.
Khan the Destroyer
10-07-06, 01:26 AM
Is Pun-Pun @ level 3 fast enough? I'm pretty sure he can make the check by then, and he'd have the extra feat to burn.
Absolutely. Level 3 would get us the only thing we need in the 1st level build, a feat for Assume Supernatural Ability.
Sarcasm aside, this is still sig-able material.
We're all counting on you ;).
Tenebrous_Sage
10-07-06, 02:08 AM
Absolutely. Level 3 would get us the only thing we need in the 1st level build, a feat for Assume Supernatural Ability.But Khan we don't need Assume Supernatural Ability, since we can use Shapechange instead.
Khan the Destroyer
10-07-06, 12:12 PM
But Khan we don't need Assume Supernatural Ability, since we can use Shapechange instead.
But wouldn't you need 14 HD to Shapechange into a Sarruhk?
No one has responded on the other thread when I asked this earlier
.psly4mne
10-07-06, 01:52 PM
That is what happens when spells inherit text from each other. Shapechange provides its own cap for the HD of the form, which (as I see it) would override the cap given by Polymorph. That means that you do not need 14 HD.
However, I could see someone arguing the other way.
Tenebrous_Sage
10-07-06, 05:57 PM
Shapechange only says:The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD)so we should be okay since the minimum caster level for the item is going to be greater than 14.
EDIT: After looking at Polymorph more closely I see what you mean about the HD Khan, but I would tend to agree with psly4mne. Since Shapechange only talks about CL and not the subjects HD (especially when you take Shapechange's range of personal into account) we should still be fine. I suppose it doesn't really matter anymore though, since we can just gate in a Sarruhk from another plane have it give us Manipulate form.
strange_person
10-08-06, 11:39 AM
Strange person, you do realize that it's just as easy to grant Singular Enemy to whatever Pun-Pun uses as his singular enemy, right? So, Pun-Pun could only be harmed by That Lizard, say, while That Lizard can only be harmed by Pun-Pun.
Okay, so the Omniscificer knows everything there is to know about That Lizard, and uses infinite Diplomacy skill to convince Pun-Pun to attack That Lizard. Pun-Pun is near-infinitely powerful and That Lizard probably isn't, so we can safely assume it's a very short fight. Singular enemy dispatched; game over.
HaikenEdge
10-08-06, 11:55 AM
Okay, so the Omniscificer knows everything there is to know about That Lizard, and uses infinite Diplomacy skill to convince Pun-Pun to attack That Lizard. Pun-Pun is near-infinitely powerful and That Lizard probably isn't, so we can safely assume it's a very short fight. Singular enemy dispatched; game over.
Problem. Pun-Pun has an infinite Sense Motive check modifiers. And, as a deity, he automatically hits a 20 on all rolls. Therefore, since both Pun-Pun and the Omnicifier have equal check modifiers, it's the roll that'd determine the success result, and Pun-Pun can force the Omnicifier to reroll until the Omnicifier has something less than a natural 20.
Conclusion: The Omnicifier couldn't persuade Pun-Pun to do anything; heck, he couldn't persuade Pun-Pun to even let him exist.
strange_person
10-08-06, 12:36 PM
Diplomacy RAW cannot be opposed by Sense Motive. The Omniscificer only needs to beat a fixed DC to raise Pun-Pun's attitude from Hostile to Fanatic, at which point Pun-Pun will do anything the Omniscificer asks, even stuff that will result in certain death.
The only way diplomacy wouldn't work is if Pun-Pun is unwilling to listen to any creature talk for even one round. If that were the case, and Pun-Pun immediately killed every creature that tried to talk to him, the multiverse would become a very lonely place. Kind of like PARANOIA, only without the opportunity to do things.
At that point, I think even the most pathologically build-accepting DM would be forced to intervene.
Lokiyn
10-08-06, 12:58 PM
Diplomacy can only be used on npcs
thus argument ended
Tenebrous_Sage
10-08-06, 01:00 PM
Pun-pun's divine ranks would prevent the Omnificier from raising his disposition to fanatic, as doing so is considered a mind-effecting ability.
Tempest Stormwind
10-08-06, 01:00 PM
Nope.
Diplomacy still requires a means to communicate, and requires time (even on a rushed check).
You're assuming a substantial element of surprise and no protections on Pun-Pun's part. This is roughly on par with the element of surprise a goldfish would need to defeat a grizzly bear in hand-to-hand combat.
Khan the Destroyer
10-08-06, 01:11 PM
Diplomacy RAW cannot be opposed by Sense Motive. The Omniscificer only needs to beat a fixed DC to raise Pun-Pun's attitude from Hostile to Fanatic, at which point Pun-Pun will do anything the Omniscificer asks, even stuff that will result in certain death.
Diplomacy RAW cannot make someone immune to mind-affecting effects Fanatic. So, assuming that you would even get the chance to use diplomacy on Pun-Pun (which, you wouldn't) you could only make him Helpful.
The only way diplomacy wouldn't work is if Pun-Pun is unwilling to listen to any creature talk for even one round.
Or you know, if he wasn't an NPC. Or if he beat the Omniscificer's infinite loop trick by about 3 levels.
strange_person
10-08-06, 01:18 PM
Diplomacy can only be used on npcs
thus argument ended
Any DM that would allow Pun-Pun as a PC needs to be shot with 2 or more hammers. I'm working under the assumption that all charachters here are NPCs, and thus theoretically equal.
Okay, so he's not fanatic. Helpful, and an infinite Bluff check, should be enough. Besides, with infinite Knowledge, the Omniscificer knows exactly what he needs to say in order to get Pun-Pun's attention for one round.
Defenses? The only crunchy defense would be ignoring or killing anyone who tries to talk to you, which creates other possible vulnerabilities (just look at the evil overlod list). The only safe, reliable defense is good roleplaying, and that's the one thing Pun-Pun hasn't got a lock on.
Tempest Stormwind
10-08-06, 01:21 PM
Any DM that would allow Pun-Pun as a PC needs to be shot with 2 or more hammers. I'm working under the assumption that all charachters here are NPCs, and thus theoretically equal.Fair enough, but that essentially assumes DM intervention.Okay, so he's not fanatic. Helpful, and an infinite Bluff check, should be enough.The infinite bluff check that's opposed by the infinite Sense Motive check, meaning deferral to ability scores to see who wins (even assuming he can get it off)? I wonder if Pun-Pun's Wisdom is greater than the Omniscificer's Charisma. Besides, with infinite Knowledge, the Omniscificer knows exactly what he needs to say in order to get Pun-Pun's attention for one round. Not a consequence of a Knowledge check, actually. You're making this up.Defenses? The only crunchy defense would be ignoring or killing anyone who tries to talk to you, which creates other possible vulnerabilities (just look at the evil overlod list). The only safe, reliable defense is good roleplaying, and that's the one thing Pun-Pun hasn't got a lock on.*sigh* You really don't understand Pun-Pun, do you?
HaikenEdge
10-08-06, 01:25 PM
Defenses? The only crunchy defense would be ignoring or killing anyone who tries to talk to you, which creates other possible vulnerabilities (just look at the evil overlod list). The only safe, reliable defense is good roleplaying, and that's the one thing Pun-Pun hasn't got a lock on.
Contingent spell silence; trigger: anybody attempting a Diplomacy check on him.
Khan the Destroyer
10-08-06, 01:26 PM
Any DM that would allow Pun-Pun as a PC needs to be shot with 2 or more hammers. I'm working under the assumption that all charachters here are NPCs, and thus theoretically equal.
No, they are all PC's. Hence we use the rules for PC's when we calculate ability scores, character wealth, and so on.
And PC's cannot use those skills on each other.
Okay, so he's not fanatic. Helpful, and an infinite Bluff check, should be enough. Besides, with infinite Knowledge, the Omniscificer knows exactly what he needs to say in order to get Pun-Pun's attention for one round.
Bluff is an opposed roll. Pun-Pun wins.
Defenses? The only crunchy defense would be ignoring or killing anyone who tries to talk to you, which creates other possible vulnerabilities (just look at the evil overlod list). The only safe, reliable defense is good roleplaying, and that's the one thing Pun-Pun hasn't got a lock on.
Could you elaborate 'good roleplaying' and 'Pun-Pun hasn't got a lock on'? I'm not sure what you mean.
Also, you are still ignoring the fact that none of this comes into play because he never allows the Omniscificer to be.
If Pun-Pun is level 4 and hasn't ascended, then what you claim is true. This is what LoP originally claimed.
But... if Pun-Pun is level 1 and has ascended, then this is all moot. The omniscificer is never allowed to happen.
HaikenEdge
10-08-06, 01:29 PM
But... if Pun-Pun is level 1 and has ascended, then this is all moot. The omniscificer is never allowed to happen.
Level 3, my man, level 3.
strange_person
10-08-06, 01:47 PM
Contingent spell silence; trigger: anybody attempting a Diplomacy check on him.
Okay, I yeild.
Pun-Pun can only be beaten in the social arena by another equal or greater Pun-Pun.
What if the DM rules that the period of unconsciousness resulting from Manipulate Form is "real time" rather than subjective time?
In that case, time stop and other super-speed effects wouldn't work, so even ascended Pun-Pun would occasionally be vulnerable. Of course, those moments of vulnerablity are spent in a private demiplane, custom-built with epic spells (in says in the sample adventure in the ELH that epic spellcasting can be used to change planar traits) to be inaccessible and uninhabitable to anyone and anything but Pun-Pun himself and possibly the familiar or psicrystal who's doing the manipulations. Still, it's a possibility that someone could, for example, call Pun-Pun with a Gate spell (or an epic effect that gets around the "unique creatures and gods" restriction) during that period of vulnerability, and the Omniscificer would know exactly who could do that and how to convince them to do so.
Tenebrous_Sage
10-08-06, 01:51 PM
Level 3, my man, level 3.We've actually built a level 1 Pun-pun HaikenEdge.
Tempest Stormwind
10-08-06, 01:56 PM
Okay, I yeild.
Pun-Pun can only be beaten in the social arena by another equal or greater Pun-Pun.Or so it seems. There might be a way around it. But this is likely.What if the DM rules...Full stop. Beating Pun-Pun with DM fiat is trivial (bribe the DM in Mountain Dew and convention swag until he says "Rocks fall, Pun-Pun dies"), even assuming the DM would allow the bugger. Pun-Pun can only exist in a world without DM fiat (i.e. an optimization theoretical space).
Hence, there can be no DM rulings against Pun-Pun. Your method must work strictly RAW.Still, it's a possibility that someone could, for example, call Pun-Pun with a Gate spell (or an epic effect that gets around the "unique creatures and gods" restriction) during that period of vulnerability, and the Omniscificer would know exactly who could do that and how to convince them to do so.*sigh* Again, Pun-Pun now ascends prior to the Omniscificer. By the time the Omniscificer comes around (assuming Pun-Pun allows it), he doesn't have such periods of weakness.
HaikenEdge
10-08-06, 02:07 PM
We've actually built a level 1 Pun-pun HaikenEdge.
Human or Kobold? I haven't seen the 1 level Kobold Pun-Pun build, although I was responsible for the 1 level human one.
Tenebrous_Sage
10-08-06, 02:20 PM
Human or Kobold? I haven't seen the 1 level Kobold Pun-Pun build, although I was responsible for the 1 level human one.Human right now. Khan has an idea for a 1st level gnomish archivist though.
psly4mne
10-08-06, 02:50 PM
Human or Kobold? I haven't seen the 1 level Kobold Pun-Pun build, although I was responsible for the 1 level human one.
Kobold now. The Kobold Ardent can make the check for Sarrukh and Pazuzu.
HaikenEdge
10-08-06, 03:22 PM
Kobold now. The Kobold Ardent can make the check for Sarrukh and Pazuzu.
Yeah, saw your post in the other thread. Good job.
I still prefer being able to do it naked.
Tempest Stormwind
10-08-06, 03:35 PM
I still prefer being able to do it naked.I might just quote you out of context on that one.
But hey, now we have our next goal. Level 1, naked Pun-Pun. (I don't think we can beat Psly4me's approach with what we've got right now, though. That's VERY impressive.)
My goal is to find a way to do it without relying on Pazuzu.
HaikenEdge
10-08-06, 03:52 PM
I might just quote you out of context on that one.Go ahead.
But hey, now we have our next goal. Level 1, naked Pun-Pun. (I don't think we can beat Psly4me's approach with what we've got right now, though. That's VERY impressive.) You mean a level 1, naked Kobold Pun-Pun, cuz a Level 1 naked Pun-Pun can be achieved via human.
My goal is to find a way to do it without relying on Pazuzu.Likewise.
strange_person
10-08-06, 10:11 PM
Full stop. Beating Pun-Pun with DM fiat is trivial (bribe the DM in Mountain Dew and convention swag until he says "Rocks fall, Pun-Pun dies"), even assuming the DM would allow the bugger. Pun-Pun can only exist in a world without DM fiat (i.e. an optimization theoretical space).
Hence, there can be no DM rulings against Pun-Pun. Your method must work strictly RAW.*sigh* Again, Pun-Pun now ascends prior to the Omniscificer. By the time the Omniscificer comes around (assuming Pun-Pun allows it), he doesn't have such periods of weakness.
I'm not exactly relying on DM fiat, I'm following the long CO board tradition of exploiting ambiguity in the RAW. As far as I know, there is no official ruling on how status conditions (such as stunning and unconsciousness) interact with Time Stop and simmilar outside-of-time effects, because the assumption was that anyone who was stunned or unconscious would be in no position to cast Time Stop. Especially in the case of Manipulate Form: the ability was designed so that the only creature that has is cannot use it on themself, so "sleeping off" the recovery period in Time Stop would be impossible.
However, even while Pun-Pun is unconscious, he can still fight back. Schism, Unconditional Power, and a liberal interpretation of the Chronotyrin's Dual Actions ability would allow Pun-Pun to manifest a power, or maybe even two, every turn while unconscious. This, combined with the already-established unlimited power points, should make killing an unconscious Pun-Pun more than enough of a challenge for a typical material plane with a well-stocked pantheon.
But it's possible. I think. Maybe.
FriendlyFrog
10-11-06, 03:40 AM
You haven't listened, there is no one to try to kill the unconscious Pun-Pun, Omniscificer is still at level 1, he hasn't even heard of Pun-Pun yet. If you can get learn of Pun-Pun, find him and kill him before he ascends, you can beat him (it takes Pun-Pun only a few rounds, so good luck with that). The Omniscificer is 6,000 XP (3 levels) and a lot of time used for crafting too late even when he learns about Pun-Pun.
Kronolancer
10-12-06, 03:32 PM
Wouldn't the OmniScificer realize with his infinte knowledge that he has no chance to beat Pun Pun?
Also while Pun Pun has infinite points in Divinity, do you keep your divinity without worshipers?
HaikenEdge
10-12-06, 03:41 PM
Wouldn't the OmniScificer realize with his infinte knowledge that he has no chance to beat Pun Pun?
Also while Pun Pun has infinite points in Divinity, do you keep your divinity without worshipers?
Overdeities do not need or care for believers.
Harkle
10-12-06, 04:36 PM
The Omnicifer can beet Pun-Pun now because Pun-Pun can be achieved at level 1. Ok so now we need to look at the only other option to beet Pun-Pun before he reaches level 1. Techincally Pun-Pun doesn't have any of the class abilities needed to ascend until after he is mature enough to have a class. For Kobolds the earliest this can be achieved is at 7 years old. The trick now is to build an Omincifer that can mature to adulthood, and gain the three levels needed to predict Pun-Pun in less than 7 years. So we need to find a race that matures faster than a Kobold, and a way to actually gain the needed levels safely.
HaikenEdge
10-12-06, 06:17 PM
The Omnicifer can beet Pun-Pun now because Pun-Pun can be achieved at level 1. Ok so now we need to look at the only other option to beet Pun-Pun before he reaches level 1. Techincally Pun-Pun doesn't have any of the class abilities needed to ascend until after he is mature enough to have a class. For Kobolds the earliest this can be achieved is at 7 years old. The trick now is to build an Omincifer that can mature to adulthood, and gain the three levels needed to predict Pun-Pun in less than 7 years. So we need to find a race that matures faster than a Kobold, and a way to actually gain the needed levels safely.
If the omnicifier is that race, then Pun-Pun can be too.
Get with the program. Pun-Pun isn't an exploit that's limited to Kobolds; it's an exploit of a broken ability that any race can take advantage of.
Harkle
10-12-06, 06:37 PM
Actaully a race can be found that that can't use Psionics it would work since the level 1 build requires a psionic class, I know there is a race that can't use Arcane Magic and a Race that can't use Divine Magic so there may be one that can't use psionics.
Tempest Stormwind
10-12-06, 06:58 PM
Actaully a race can be found that that can't use Psionics it would work since the level 1 build requires a psionic class, I know there is a race that can't use Arcane Magic and a Race that can't use Divine Magic so there may be one that can't use psionics.
Just because you have an eye to the left of your nose and an eye to the right of your nose doesn't mean there's an eye above your nose.
No such race has yet been published.
Harkle
10-12-06, 07:05 PM
Just because you have an eye to the left of your nose and an eye to the right of your nose doesn't mean there's an eye above your nose.
No such race has yet been published.
I figured that out, that is why I'm currently looking through monsters. If I can find a monster that can't use Psionics and can find refeance to age on it a build can be made from that since anything in 3.5 can theorticly have levels. If I don't find a monster that can't use psionics and matures in under 7 years I'll see about finding a monster that matures in under 7 years and can pull off the Omnicifer trick with no levels.
Harkle
10-12-06, 07:20 PM
Ok I just realized the futility of my effort, I asked my brother about Warforged. And it turns out they start at age 0 and can use psionics. So if you use a Warfoged for the Pun-Pun trick there is nothing that can beat him. Before he achieves ascendance.
I will add this to my list of reasons I dislike Ebberon.
Tenebrous_Sage
10-12-06, 11:37 PM
Technically you can use the 1st level ardent build to pull off the Omnificier trick (which has already been incorporated into the pun-pun build). That doesn't beat Pun-pun but he could theoretically ascend at the same time.
HaikenEdge
10-13-06, 12:20 AM
Technically you can use the 1st level ardent build to pull off the Omnificier trick (which has already been incorporated into the pun-pun build). That doesn't beat Pun-pun but he could theoretically ascend at the same time.
But by ascending, wouldn't he become Pun-Pun?
Harkle
10-13-06, 12:37 AM
I'm currently looking for monsters that can pull off the Omnicifer trick without needing to gain levels, and are at full power at birth. If such a monster exists the question would then become, can the monster gain the needed knowledge and find and kill Pun-Pun before Pun-Pun reaches a point in his ascension that he can't be beaten.
Tenebrous_Sage
10-13-06, 12:41 AM
But by ascending, wouldn't he become Pun-Pun?Not if he didn't use manipulate form.
Although I'm sure the ability to become nigh on omnipotent would be too much temptation for him to bear. :evillaugh
Lokiyn
10-13-06, 12:46 AM
well, by definition http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG242b.jpg
Titan
This guy is older than the pc races and has the skills
Harkle
10-13-06, 12:49 AM
well, by definition http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG242b.jpg
Titan
This guy is older than the pc races and has the skills
Not bad, but I still want to play fair and have them born at the exact same moment, I'm sure it takes a Titan some time to grow up.
strange_person
10-14-06, 10:58 AM
The two races I can think of with 0 maturation time are Warforged and Elan.
Technically, an Elan has to be Human first, but the ritual that creates them goes straight from "not an Elan" to "1st level young adult Elan" in a single day.
A Warforged has the added benefit that you don't need to justify why they're fine-tuned and perfect for the given build (the LoBster built 'em that way, knowing it's the path to machine supremacy)
An Elan has the added benefit that you don't need to justify information beyond normal Knowledge skills (the past life knew it).
HaikenEdge
10-14-06, 11:45 AM
The two races I can think of with 0 maturation time are Warforged and Elan.
Technically, an Elan has to be Human first, but the ritual that creates them goes straight from "not an Elan" to "1st level young adult Elan" in a single day.
A Warforged has the added benefit that you don't need to justify why they're fine-tuned and perfect for the given build (the LoBster built 'em that way, knowing it's the path to machine supremacy)
An Elan has the added benefit that you don't need to justify information beyond normal Knowledge skills (the past life knew it).
But Pun-Pun could conceivably be either of those races as well.
As demonstrated by the Human and Kobold builds to become Pun-Pun, it's not necessary to be a Kobold, since a shapechange or the like could grant the creature the scaly-kind subtype long enough to ascend into godhood.
strange_person
10-15-06, 06:04 PM
In order to work, Pun-Pun needs to have alterations made to his/her/it's natural form with Manipulate Form.
Manipulate Form only works on scalykind native to Toril.
Elan aren't scalykind, they're humanlike Aberations.
Admittedly, if Pun-Pun is possible at first level, then any human (including one native to Torll) can become Pun-Pun by transforming into an Elan, and an Elan might concelvably be made scalykind, but becoming Pun-Pun by this route requires the direct intervention of the leaders of the Elan race, which might be anticipated or prevented by any number of combinations of groups, entities, and meothods.
Such an individual would furthermore be under observation (by the other Elan) from the moment of it's creation, so the ascenscion could be prevented more directly, with a Coup de Grace as soon as the first world-beating power is granted.
Warforged aren't native to Toril.
Thus, no Pun-Pun less than one year old.
Tenebrous_Sage
10-16-06, 03:30 AM
In order to work, Pun-Pun needs to have alterations made to his/her/it's natural form with Manipulate Form.
Manipulate Form only works on scalykind native to Toril.
Elan aren't scalykind, they're humanlike Aberations.
Admittedly, if Pun-Pun is possible at first level, then any human (including one native to Torll) can become Pun-Pun by transforming into an Elan, and an Elan might concelvably be made scalykind, but becoming Pun-Pun by this route requires the direct intervention of the leaders of the Elan race, which might be anticipated or prevented by any number of combinations of groups, entities, and meothods.
Such an individual would furthermore be under observation (by the other Elan) from the moment of it's creation, so the ascenscion could be prevented more directly, with a Coup de Grace as soon as the first world-beating power is granted.
Warforged aren't native to Toril.
Thus, no Pun-Pun less than one year old.All the Elan needs to become "scalykind" is to use one of its wishes to duplicate Polymorph or Polymorph Any Object.
strange_person
10-16-06, 10:59 AM
But the very process of becoming an Elan attracts enough attention that it wouldn't be able to Ascend without being noticed, and possibly stopped. If a level 1 Elan can get a Wish, then the level 18 Elans watching over the new recruit will be able to get more than one, and prevent infinite loops.
Kresalak
10-17-06, 10:06 AM
I believe that the first level ardent that becomes Pun-Pun needs to be at least Old to garuntee making the knowledge check to know about Pazuzu, which gives a span of x years to do stuff as long as you do it at level 1.
10-17-06, 12:48 PM
But the very process of becoming an Elan attracts enough attention that it wouldn't be able to Ascend without being noticed, and possibly stopped. If a level 1 Elan can get a Wish, then the level 18 Elans watching over the new recruit will be able to get more than one, and prevent infinite loops.
There aren't level 18 Elans looking over the shoulder of every single Elan that exists
.Now, granted, if I remember correctly, the Elan watch over new recruits. But that doesn't mean that they are literally following each new recruit and scrutinizing every single move he makes. A knowledge check isn't something you can tell someone else is doing. And a level 18 Elan won't stop Pazazu himself from tempting a mortal with a Wish.
I believe that the first level ardent that becomes Pun-Pun needs to be at least Old to garuntee making the knowledge check to know about Pazuzu, which gives a span of x years to do stuff as long as you do it at level 1.
The gnome cleric doesn't have this stipulation.
But I think trying to map time by levels makes much more sense than going into the actual time between levels. There is a lot of time between levels, and there really is no way to determine how much time anyone has. I mean, if someone can stop him at '0 time', then most likely Pun-Pun can ascend at '0 time'.
But, on top of it being too open, it doesn't make much sense. At least the 1st level characters with an 'adventuring starting age' can claim to have learned the knowledge before hitting the road, in the 15-20 years before they venture off. But for an Elan to come into being, or a Warforged, with the spontaneous knowledge that Pazazu the demonic lord will grant you a wish if you speak his name thrice is a little nonsensical (for whatever that's worth on the OC Board
).strange_person
10-17-06, 02:43 PM
Well, an Elan might have learned it in their previous (human) life. Knowledge skills don't carry over through the transformation, but individual facts do.
A simple Clairaudience or simmilar effect is enough to notice when the new recruit with the Sarrukh obsession starts chanting "Pazuzu, Pazuzu" and a smart Elan overseer would investigate more closely as soon as he/she/it heard that much.
Remember, even once Pun-Pun has Manipulate Form for himself and his familiar/psicrystal, it still takes 2d4 rounds before he regains consciousness with that first power. Even if he's really done his homework and knows to make that first power something like "time stop SLA at will" or "regeneration like the Tarrasque (immunity to death by damage)" it's still possible to kill him by putting a tourniquet around his neck during that 2d4 round interval, beating on him with multiple CDGs, and following it up with a Wish before he regains consciousness. Certainly within the capabilities of a paranoid 18th level Elan… you don't get that old by giving assasins second chances.
If anyone doubts that an 18th level Elan would respond thusly, please remember that any number of simple divinations, asking something like "What will happen if I let him recover on his own?", would come back with all kinds of crazy cosmic doom.
Tenebrous_Sage
10-17-06, 02:54 PM
If Pun-pun gives himself singular enemy first than the Elan can't hurt him.
strange_person
10-17-06, 03:38 PM
So the Elan removes all the oxygen from the room, teleports out, blankets it in an antimagic field, triggers a cave-in, and uses some simple divinatory magic to locate the singular enemy.
Assuming Pun-Pun isn't already dead from asphyxiation by the time the Singular Enemy is retrieved, even a baby rat can be telepathically compelled to kill a helpless opponent. Singular Enemy protects from attacks, but it doesn't guarantee the ability to move and act despite environmental restrictions.
Alternatively, when the Singular Enemy is destroyed, Pun-Pun will cease to exist.
The_Mad_Linguist
10-17-06, 04:05 PM
So the Elan removes all the oxygen from the room, teleports out, blankets it in an antimagic field, triggers a cave-in, and uses some simple divinatory magic to locate the singular enemy.
Assuming Pun-Pun isn't already dead from asphyxiation by the time the Singular Enemy is retrieved, even a baby rat can be telepathically compelled to kill a helpless opponent. Singular Enemy protects from attacks, but it doesn't guarantee the ability to move and act despite environmental restrictions.
Alternatively, when the Singular Enemy is destroyed, Pun-Pun will cease to exist.
And, so, the Elan learns that Pun-Pun is his own singular enemy!
Remember, even once Pun-Pun has Manipulate Form for himself and his familiar/psicrystal, it still takes 2d4 rounds before he regains consciousness with that first power.
Too bad that the change is instantaneous. It is followed by becoming unconscious, sure, but he gets the power immediately.
Khan the Destroyer
10-17-06, 06:00 PM
Well, an Elan might have learned it in their previous (human) life. Knowledge skills don't carry over through the transformation, but individual facts do.
Exactly. So without any hard mechanics to justify your knowledge, you would be arbitrarily deciding that this particular Elan happened to keep a nugget of information after transformation, and that information as about Pazazu.
You might as well say he was an omnsicifcer beforehand, and retained knowledge about Pun-Pun after becoming an Elan. Much simpler, but still arbitrary.
A simple Clairaudience or simmilar effect is enough to notice when the new recruit with the Sarrukh obsession starts chanting "Pazuzu, Pazuzu" and a smart Elan overseer would investigate more closely as soon as he/she/it heard that much.
Right, but you are assuming a Clairvoyant effect at the exact time needed to notice the new Elan speaking Pazazu's name three times. Further, the only thing the Elan could do (assuming the new recruit fails his saving throw) is watch as Pazazu gets called.
And when the Elan gets there, Pazazu the demon lord turns around and says 'Is there something I can help you with? I'm in the middle of something.'
Also, there is no Sarruhk obssession. Remember, Elan is being used for a '0 time' assassination attempt. Essentially, the creature is created and he goes 'Hey! Pazazu Pazazu Pazazu!'. The 1st level ascendants don't even know about Manipulate Form until after they obtain the Wish from Pazazu.
Remember, even once Pun-Pun has Manipulate Form for himself and his familiar/psicrystal, it still takes 2d4 rounds before he regains consciousness with that first power. Even if he's really done his homework and knows to make that first power something like "time stop SLA at will" or "regeneration like the Tarrasque (immunity to death by damage)" it's still possible to kill him by putting a tourniquet around his neck during that 2d4 round interval, beating on him with multiple CDGs, and following it up with a Wish before he regains consciousness.
Well, I'm not going to argue that someone can kill Pun-Pun before he ascends. I mean, that's pretty much a given and goes for any traditional character.
Certainly within the capabilities of a paranoid 18th level Elan… you don't get that old by giving assasins second chances.
You don't get that old by watching new recruits 24/7 either ;).
If anyone doubts that an 18th level Elan would respond thusly, please remember that any number of simple divinations, asking something like "What will happen if I let him recover on his own?", would come back with all kinds of crazy cosmic doom.
Barring the fact that Pun-Pun has never severely tampered with reality of course.
Also, there is nothing in the text that would suggest Pun-Pun would be killed after the Sungluar Enemy is destroyed. Further, the singular enemy is a spell conjuration, which is dispelled afterwards, so no one can even find it to kill it.
EDIT: We should probably move this discussion to the actual Pun-Pun thread, since it is off-topic for the Omniscificer thread
.strange_person
10-18-06, 11:16 AM
And, so, the Elan learns that Pun-Pun is his own singular enemy!
Too bad that the change is instantaneous. It is followed by becoming unconscious, sure, but he gets the power immediately.
If Pun-Pun set himself as his own singular enemy, or something else unobtainable, he would still be succeptible to damage from falling objects and environmental effects. 2d4 rounds is more than enough time to bring down a 20d6 rock.
Divination would reveal Pun-Pun pre-ascension, because (by definition) he hasn't protected against it yet. The Omniscificer could anticipate Pun-Pun by hearing about the results of someone else's divination.
Yes, it's obvious that Pun-Pun can be killed pre-ascension, the tricky part (which this thread is meant to adress) is finding him pre-ascension with enough time and resources left to guarantee a kill.
No, it's not off-topic. This thread is about "a rational solution to the pun-pun problem" and determining the exact charachteristics of pre- and early-ascension Pun-Pun is part of that problem.
Lokiyn
10-18-06, 03:05 PM
But hey, now we have our next goal. Level 1, naked Pun-Pun. (I don't think we can beat Psly4me's approach with what we've got right now, though. That's VERY impressive.)
My goal is to find a way to do it without relying on Pazuzu.
I think its possible, if (big if) one uses incantations, however i've never really bothered to see how low the checks can be forced to get an effect (like a wish for a candle of invocation.)
Hyfigh
10-19-06, 09:01 AM
If Pun-Pun set himself as his own singular enemy, or something else unobtainable, he would still be succeptible to damage from falling objects and environmental effects. 2d4 rounds is more than enough time to bring down a 20d6 rock.
Only the victim of single enemy can cause it harm... Environmental damage would fall under the 'harm' catagory, so I'm thinkin' you're wrong. That means one would need to compel him to harm himself, or whatever he designates as his singular enemy would need to harm him. In either case, Cerebral Immunity prevents that from happening (I like using an Ice Assassin copy of Pun-pun for the Singular Enemy trick, if we somehow decide we can't just target pun himself, simply because you command it copy everything that you do).
Divination would reveal Pun-Pun pre-ascension, because (by definition) he hasn't protected against it yet. The Omniscificer could anticipate Pun-Pun by hearing about the results of someone else's divination.
I guess that would depend on the order in which you take Cerebral Blind. It may not prevent them from knowing what he's doing, but they'll never find him.
bomaz
10-19-06, 11:16 AM
double singular enemies to prevent him harming himself, such as singular enemy P2 and singular enemy commoner-way-over-there
strange_person
10-19-06, 11:28 AM
If Pun-Pun's first use of Manipulate Form is making himself his own Singular Enemy, then for those 2d4 rounds of unconsciousness, he's only immune to harm from things other than himself.
Oxygen deprivation (drowning) is not caused by any external environmental effect; it's a function of his own metabolism. Thus, any harm caused by lack of oxygen is caused by Pun-Pun's singular enemy (himself). If the Elan overseer removes the oxygen from the room, it will kill Pun-Pun, even with the Singular Enemy ability. Remember, you can't hold your breath while you're unconscious.
Construct traits, not Singular Enemy, protect against drowning normally.
The Omniscificer, on the other hand, could start as an Elan or Warforged, giving him a head start of many years.
strange_person
10-19-06, 11:30 AM
double singular enemies to prevent him harming himself, such as singular enemy P2 and singular enemy commoner-way-over-there
What part of "singular" don't you understand?
A creature can only have one singular enemy.
Hyfigh
10-19-06, 11:48 AM
Oxygen deprivation (drowning) is not caused by any external environmental effect; it's a function of his own metabolism. Thus, any harm caused by lack of oxygen is caused by Pun-Pun's singular enemy (himself). If the Elan overseer removes the oxygen from the room, it will kill Pun-Pun, even with the Singular Enemy ability. Remember, you can't hold your breath while you're unconscious.
That's really trying to push the limits of the rules and I personally would not rule it that way but OK. He is unconscious for 2d4 rounds, but what is preventing someone else from adding more abilities through MF? Who ever said that the gated sarruhk was not commanded to grant him multiple abilities? What about his Psicrystal granting him more abilities as well via MF? I would think that 2d4 rounds is not long enough (48 seconds max) to kill someone via oxygen deprivation. I'm at work right now, so don't have access to my books, but I am positive that with a reasonable order of operations, you can prevent breathing problems.
What part of "singular" don't you understand?
A creature can only have one singular enemy
It is an extraordinary ability and unless you find a rule stating you can't have more than one version of the same type of extraordinary ability, I think he's safe. You could use singular enemy for yourself, and the commoner by identifying two different victims through two different applications of SE.
bomaz
10-19-06, 11:53 AM
does that mean that PP no longer can kill himself?
Hyfigh
10-19-06, 11:56 AM
Whoa, maybe... Thoughts?
HaikenEdge
10-19-06, 12:25 PM
I always was for transforming the psicrystal into a scalykind, then having the saruhk give it MF, which it then uses on P2, whether conscious or unconscious.
It's simple, really. 1st round, Singular Enemy. 2nd round, Construct traits.
Hyfigh
10-19-06, 01:50 PM
Wouldn't the effects of the unconsciousness just overlap too? I mean rather than stacking...
FriendlyFrog
10-19-06, 03:05 PM
does that mean that PP no longer can kill himself?
As if he could have done that before. If he'd want to, he can just Manipulate form Singular enemy away.
bomaz
10-19-06, 03:56 PM
well to remove an immunity could be considered harmfull...
strange_person
10-19-06, 05:32 PM
By a strict reading of the rules, yes, 2 rounds is long enough to kill someone by oxygen deprivation. Remember: you can't hold your breath while you're unconscious. On the first round, Pun-Pun is reduced to 0 hit points. On the second round, -1. On the third, he "drowns." As established earlier on this same thread, there is no turning back without restoring the air supply and magical healing, which the Sarrukh is under no compulsion to supply.
if the Sarrukh decides to stick around (rather than break contract, now that it's former boss is dead) it could grant elan-Pun construct traits; but that would be self-defeating, since it would make elan-Pun immune to further applications of Manipulate Form (since it requires a fortitude save but isn't harmless).
I re-read the Aleax entry, and I think if a creature got the Singular Enemy ability multiple times, it would mean that all the specified creatures could harm it normally, but no others. Pun-Pun is in no danger of being unable to kill himself, and declaring "that commoner over there" as an additional subject of a Singular Enemy ability would only give him an extra weakness.
FriendlyFrog
10-19-06, 06:07 PM
if the Sarrukh decides to stick around (rather than break contract, now that it's former boss is dead) it could grant elan-Pun construct traits; but that would be self-defeating, since it would make elan-Pun immune to further applications of Manipulate Form (since it requires a fortitude save but isn't harmless).
Why not just give Pun-Pun the Breathless ability that Air genasi have, instead of construct traits?
Khan the Destroyer
10-20-06, 01:29 AM
If Pun-Pun's first use of Manipulate Form is making himself his own Singular Enemy, then for those 2d4 rounds of unconsciousness, he's only immune to harm from things other than himself.
Then let's think of other primary wishes he can make to avoid pesky meta-gaming Elan ;).
What about plane shifting to the Far Realm (or whatever means one uses to get there, I forget, but I know we've gone over them before, in the Terminator thread)? Once there, he could buff up (either directly or indirectly through his psicrystal).
Or what abut a massive Time Hop? (I'm just throwing out ideas here.)
Oxygen deprivation (drowning) is not caused by any external environmental effect; it's a function of his own metabolism. Thus, any harm caused by lack of oxygen is caused by Pun-Pun's singular enemy (himself). If the Elan overseer removes the oxygen from the room, it will kill Pun-Pun, even with the Singular Enemy ability. Remember, you can't hold your breath while you're unconscious.
You're going beyond the rules here. By this logic, know one actually harms anyone in D&D, they only harm themselves. This is because bleeding to death, dying by poison, or getting fatally electrecuted by a druid's lightning bolt is a function of our own bodily processes.
;)
The Omniscificer, on the other hand, could start as an Elan or Warforged, giving him a head start of many years.
But... what stops the 18th level Elan from prohibiting the elan omniscificer to come into being? I mean, an all-mighty elan is an all-mighty elan, even if one is called Pun-Pun and the other is called Omniscificer. I don't see why this guy would discriminate between one Elan and the next.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-20-06, 01:56 AM
Is it just me or is this argument retarded? I commend Khan the Destroyer for his seemingly unending well of patience.
There's no elan overgod. There may be some finite number of REALLY ANNOYING AND NOSY 18th level elans, but it's not enough to stop the infinite number of potential elans which may rise to power.
Hyfigh
10-20-06, 09:56 AM
Is it just me or is this argument retarded? I commend Khan the Destroyer for his seemingly unending well of patience.
Good point. I'll shut up...
Tenebrous_Sage
10-20-06, 07:41 PM
EDIT: Double post...
Tenebrous_Sage
10-21-06, 02:33 AM
There's no elan overgod. There may be some finite number of REALLY ANNOYING AND NOSY 18th level elans, but it's not enough to stop the infinite number of potential elans which may rise to power.Aren't there an infinite number of "REALLY ANNOYING AND NOSY 18th level elans" too?
I commend Khan the Destroyer for his seemingly unending well of patience.Khan's unending well of patience is one of the reasons we all love him so much. Three cheers for Khan. Carwyn_Nhung
10-21-06, 09:39 PM
I'm afraid I haven't read the whole thread, but I think I may have found a flaw in this system: When the character does a knowledge check, and beats the DC, who does the DM tell the useful information to? The player!
Now assuming the magic, perfect DM who can say an infinite amount of detail about the campaign world, the player still has to absorb it and make decisions from it. And while he is obligated to give useful info, he does not have to give the details of pun-pun first, as all sort of other pieces of info can be useful for different purposes! For example, when you look at a wotc-made lore table, you might not really want to know that it’s an aberration, but that can still be considered useful. This is not directly relevant, but it means that apart from what could be considered a DM decision, you cannot say that the first 20 pieces of info from each knowledge check are the ones you want and ignore the rest, or say that they don't exist. But if we also assume a perfect player is required to play it, then we can carry on.
In some ways this is always done, as we assume the player won't make any stupid errors. But now, as far as I can see, we will have to assume inhuman and indeed infinite limits for the player, giving him infinite capacity to receive information, and the ability to come to conclusions based on that info. In computer terms, that’s a lot of ram!
Having written all that, I checked the first post and saw [premise 23], but it seems to me that 'The interrelations of the other knowledge check results and their relevance to the prevention of the pun-pun situation' is not a valid knowledge skill. Now I'm sure this must have been covered, but I'm pretty sure that the DM can come up with however many (or few) additional knowledge skills beyond the basics as he wants to have in his setting, apart from his obligation to ensure every 5 foot cube of the setting is covered by at least one local knowledge check. This means that you once again need a favourable DM ruling. The other question is, even if you had such a ruling, could you sift though the endless entries in this category? They may all be labelled with their relevance, but you would still have to find the gems in the mass of "In this world people named Pete are no more common than people named John, this has little relevance to pun-pun"! But to be honest, if you can create a knowledge category, and solve that problem, then how about 'The best and easiest way for me right now to kill proto-pun-pun and prevent the real thing from ever occurring'?
Oh and congratulations for using a premise system in your post, it makes it really easy to read. I hope my meandering prose is clear enough however, as I don’t have the concentration right now to do any better!
Tenebrous_Sage
10-21-06, 11:06 PM
While, in a real game, the DM has to pass the knowledge obtained from a knowledge check on to the player, the knowledge skill represents what a character knows. So, while the amount of information gained from a knowledge check might take a DM time to pass to a player, "remembering" (for lack of a better word) the information takes no appreciable amount of time (so little that knowledge checks don't require an action) in the game world.
Thought experiments (like the omniscificer) necessarily assume a neutral, permissive DM. That means that when we make characters we are creating them in an environment where everything that is allowable in the rules is allowed. Since the rules allow for new knowledge skills to be created we are assuming that the DM we are working with will allow them to be created. The knowledge skills presented in the PHB are, however, sufficiently broad in scope that they should suffice (with the omniscificer's infinite checks) to provide the omniscificer with any information that he requires.
strange_person
10-22-06, 09:34 PM
Why not just give Pun-Pun the Breathless ability that Air genasi have, instead of construct traits?
Because Pun-Pun only gets 1 use of Manipulate Form before he's unconscious and it's the boss's turn. If he's immune to oxygen deprivation and nothing else a simple CDG will finish him off.
Khan: I also appreciate your endless patience. However, I feel obligated to continue testing it…
Lightning, acid, bleeding effects, and poison are all the results of other people's actions.
Per the DMG, anyone can hold their breath for a period of time determined by their constitution score (and possibly modified by various racial traits). Taking a standard action or a full-round action counts as two rounds worth of holding your breath. The drowning rules kick in when you stop holding your breath, either because you can't anymore (run out of time) or voluntarily. In every spell or effect that references or imitates the drowning rules, it makes reference to the option of voluntary resumption of breathing.
Conclusion: Holding your breath is a result of your own actions.
Under normal circumstances, anyone would have to be dead stupid or seriously mind-controlled to do so, but yes, you can drown faster by trying to breathe. Unconsciousness is not normal circumstances.
No, there aren't an infinite number of unsupervised 1st level elans. Read the "fluff" in the Races section of the XPH, where it explains how Elans are created.
Pun-Pun would probably be destroyed early because he's actually more dangerous than the Omniscificer. Consider: Pun-Pun can duplicate every ability that the omniscificer has, plus every other ability that any other creature has or could have. The Omniscificer, on the other hand, goes head-explodey as soon as that "delay death" spell wears off.
Assuming that a high-level elan Seer can anticipate both of them, and wants some infinite knowledge and/or power for itself, Pun-Pun gets the pre-emptive axe because Omni's easier to control. Besides, once the Omniscificer rig is built, you don't have to strap in the builder for it to work; just suit up some kobold with as-yet-unfulfilled delusions of grandeur and mindripe 'em before it wears off. Unlimited knowledge without the nasty side effects, now with 11% more evil!
Tenebrous_Sage
10-22-06, 09:54 PM
What T.G. meant with the infinite 1st level elans thing is that there are an infinite number of infinitely large planes in the multiverse. Even if only a small fraction of these plans contain elan there are an infinite amount of them in the multiverse.
strange_person
10-22-06, 10:02 PM
And what I meant by there not being an infinite number of unsupervised 1st level elans is that there must be a correspondingly infinite number of higher-level elans who created all those 1st level ones.
"infinity" is not the same as "too many to keep track of."
The_Mad_Linguist
10-22-06, 10:46 PM
Assuming Manipulate Form still works on unconscious targets (I don't see why not), Pun-Pun can first give the gated sarrukh a laundry list of abilities to apply to him while the Gate spell lasts.
Here's a sample order of buffing.
Singular enemy
Manipulate Form
Regeneration 40 (from tarrasque)
17 more rounds of manipulation, including:
Favor of the Martyr
Heat/cold/acid/whatever immunities
Breathless
Khan the Destroyer
10-23-06, 01:01 AM
Assuming Manipulate Form still works on unconscious targets (I don't see why not), Pun-Pun can first give the gated sarrukh a laundry list of abilities to apply to him while the Gate spell lasts.
Here's a sample order of buffing.
Singular enemy
Manipulate Form
Regeneration 40 (from tarrasque)
17 more rounds of manipulation, including:
Favor of the Martyr
Heat/cold/acid/whatever immunities
Breathless
All good points.
I have been focusing too much on the Elan premise, despite the fact that a build to pull this off hasn't even been presented
.In reality, the first application of Manipulate Form can go to the psicrystal (this was the original method). Pump up the psicrystal to pump up and protect Pun-Pun afterwards. Alternatively, The_Mad_Linguist has a good suggestion, milk your limitless Wishes to have the Sarruhk alter either you or your psicrystal first. Then get the ability later and go to town.
It doesn't have to be 'Pun-Pun knocks himself out, all-knowing high-level character takes him out'.
I commend Khan the Destroyer for his seemingly unending well of patience.
Khan's unending well of patience is one of the reasons we all love him so much. Three cheers for Khan.
Yeah! Go me!
(I'm trying to not repeat what happened between MystiK, AlGhoul, and myself on the Pun-Pun thread ;).)
Tenebrous_Sage
10-23-06, 01:05 AM
(I'm trying to not repeat what happened between MystiK, AlGhoul, and myself on the Pun-Pun thread ;).)I don't think anybody wants a repeat of that.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-23-06, 01:13 AM
This is how it goes down:
1. Grant ps ability: Affinity Field to pun-pun
2. Grant ps ability: synchronicity to psi-crystal of pun-pun
3.-10.wait max 8 rnds now pun-pun and his psi-crystal are back from being unconscious
10. Pun-pun activates affinity field, shares with psi-crystal. psi-crystal activates synchronicity. Infinite action loop begins. Insta buffs. All possible buff configurations begin. Ascention to divinity begins. It all happens on the 10th round.
11. profit.
The_Mad_Linguist
10-23-06, 07:36 AM
This is how it goes down:
1. Grant ps ability: Affinity Field to pun-pun
2. Grant ps ability: synchronicity to psi-crystal of pun-pun
3.-10.wait max 8 rnds now pun-pun and his psi-crystal are back from being unconscious
10. Pun-pun activates affinity field, shares with psi-crystal. psi-crystal activates synchronicity. Infinite action loop begins. Insta buffs. All possible buff configurations begin. Ascention to divinity begins. It all happens on the 10th round.
11. profit.
You forgot to give Manipulate Form to pun-pun.
Khan the Destroyer
10-23-06, 01:09 PM
It's assumd before step 1 I take.
The problem TG is that some people are trying to use that window of opportunity to strike Pun-Pun.
Now that the Omniscificer has theoretically been beaten, and Pun-Pun can ascend at level 1, the challenge is stopping Pun-Pun in whatever imagined time before he ascends at level 1.
Kresalak
10-23-06, 01:23 PM
This is how it goes down:
1. Grant ps ability: Affinity Field to pun-pun
2. Grant ps ability: synchronicity to psi-crystal of pun-pun
3.-10.wait max 8 rnds now pun-pun and his psi-crystal are back from being unconscious
10. Pun-pun activates affinity field, shares with psi-crystal. psi-crystal activates synchronicity. Infinite action loop begins. Insta buffs. All possible buff configurations begin. Ascention to divinity begins. It all happens on the 10th round.
11. profit.
You forgot the "???".
Tleilaxu_Ghola
10-23-06, 04:50 PM
You forgot to give Manipulate Form to pun-pun.
Meh. Manipulate form can be given in the 11th round. Pun-Pun doesn't even need to get manipulate form with this trick. I thereby circumnavigate the need for the Creature X argument.
See the loop I describe allows the sarrukh to infuse the creature an infinite number of times with an infinite number of abilities in a single round. So he could grant pun-pun all the abilities he ever wanted... in a single round. As for divine ranks, he could grant him all the abilities he ever wanted in two back-to-back rounds of the loop. The loop allows for arbitrarily long buff times.
strange_person
10-25-06, 12:12 AM
Based on The Mad Linguist's plan:
The problem is, Gating in a Sarrukh and cutting a deal for a minute-and-a-half of form manipulation involves making noise. Intelligible speech, even. Thus, the Omniscificer will hear it going on in the first round, and inform an appropriate god in (at the latest) the second round.
That god will then teleport in the third round and banish the sarrukh back to it's native plane with some quickened spell-like ability.
Pun-Pun, still unconscious from the first three form manipulations, will be tied up with infinite use rope skill and sealed inside an airless chamber in a massive crystal buried in the inaccessible deepest layers of Pandemonium or something, to be dealt with as soon as someone finds something that can injure him. He might be dead from lack of air, but nobody's willing to remove enough rope to check. The Omniscificer heard enough to know that he's already got the abilty to grant himself all the power in the multiverse and then some as soon as he gets a hand free.
The whole thing's over with in under a minute, but it ends with an indestructible mystery beast capable of destroying the gods, bound away in some long-forgotten inaccessible hole.
Where did you think that kind of thing came from?
Tenebrous_Sage
10-25-06, 01:03 AM
How, exactly, is the Omniscificer hearing Pun-pun make the deal with the Sarrukh? The Omniscificer is fourth level and Pun-pun is first. So, unless the Omniscificer was given an unfair head start, he hasn't ascended yet.
strange_person
10-25-06, 01:22 AM
I'm assuming that the Omniscificer is a Warforged custom-built by the Lord of Blades as an ultimate scout for an invasion of Toril through the Plane of Shadow, and Pun-Pun is a 1st level FR Elan.
Omni gains levels through crazy-overwhelming encounters in the Shadow passage, survived through LoBster's backup. Alternatively, someone could figure out how to do Omni at level 1.
Omni's crafting while Pun-Pun's doing the research on Yuan-Ti history, and how to get those wishes, and wriggling free of Elan politics and surveilance.
All of that is charachter creation, and the crazy stuff starts happening in the first round of the first game session. Pun-Pun uses the first wish at the same instant that the Omniscificer jumps out of the tree.
Considering how close that cuts it (less than a minute to spare before Pun-Pun goes cosmic and the DM becomes an "easy if handled properly" encounter), I wouldn't call it an unfair head start.
Edit: also note that being a warforged means that the LoBster-sponsored Toril-scouting Omniscificer has no way to survive without the direct intervention of a god or something.
Also, infinite spot checks means unbelievable image quality and super-summarizing skilz mean that Final Messenger is going to have a heckuva report to file. Can you think of a way to explain every detail of every sound and thought in Toril in 25 words or less? Probably not, but I bet I know who can. After all, an infinite number of facts means an infinite number of obscure words in dead languages that are just barely current enough to be magically translated. Perfect data compression!
The_Mad_Linguist
10-25-06, 10:15 AM
Based on The Mad Linguist's plan:
The problem is, Gating in a Sarrukh and cutting a deal for a minute-and-a-half of form manipulation involves making noise. Intelligible speech, even. Thus, the Omniscificer will hear it going on in the first round, and inform an appropriate god in (at the latest) the second round.
That god will then teleport in the third round and banish the sarrukh back to it's native plane with some quickened spell-like ability.
Pun-Pun, still unconscious from the first three form manipulations, will be tied up with infinite use rope skill and sealed inside an airless chamber in a massive crystal buried in the inaccessible deepest layers of Pandemonium or something, to be dealt with as soon as someone finds something that can injure him. He might be dead from lack of air, but nobody's willing to remove enough rope to check. The Omniscificer heard enough to know that he's already got the abilty to grant himself all the power in the multiverse and then some as soon as he gets a hand free.
The whole thing's over with in under a minute, but it ends with an indestructible mystery beast capable of destroying the gods, bound away in some long-forgotten inaccessible hole.
Where did you think that kind of thing came from?
Tying someone up takes a full minute. Worst case scenerio: pun-pun comes to after 8 rounds. He can now give himself any power he wants. Planeshift as a SLA sounds good. Pun-pun gives himself planeshift at will. He gets knocked out again, and the omniscificer finishes tying Pun-pun up.
Pun-pun can't be killed (aleax invincibility + terrasque regeneration), and because SLA planeshift doesn't need any components, as soon as he regains consciousness he can planeshift out of his prison.
Of course, you've already violated premises 2-4 of the omniscificer.
[Premise 2] With enough time, experience, etc, pretty much any moderately optimized character could become nigh-infinitely powerful. What is impressive about Pun-Pun is that this power level is accomplished with alarming speed, i.e. at level 5. EDIT: Now 1.
[Premise 3] Thus, the only accurate way to compare two or more nigh-omniscient characters would be to evaluate the amount of time it takes for these characters to reach their ultimate state.
[Premise 4] Controlling for DM temperament and nonmechanical circumstances, as we must on the Character Optimization Boards, experience points obtained is the best way of comparing timeframes between characters. If character experience point levels are the same, then round-by-round analysis of capability curves would be necessary.
Harkle
10-25-06, 01:39 PM
Well I think arguments have changed Premise 4 to literally measure time from the moment of each characters birth rather than base it on XP and levels.
On that note I've found a couple of monsters that I think can pull of the Omnicifer trick at the moment they are born.
The Klurichir demon from the Fiend Folio can cast spells as a 10th level sorcerer, which should be enough to cast the spells for the omnicifer trick, and any items the omnicifer needs can be gained through the demons treasure since the level 1 Pun-Pun requires the use of equipment. Since demons are changed from a previous form to the new one and everything about the past forms it replaced and a demon is created at full power the Klurichir should be able to find pull of the omnicifer trick, find Pun-Pun and kill him before ascencion.
The other monster I foundwas any of the Elemental Wierds from the MM2. They all can cast spells as level 18 sorcerers, and I'm fairly sure Elementals are at full power when created.
Khan the Destroyer
10-25-06, 03:24 PM
I'm assuming that the Omniscificer is a Warforged custom-built by the Lord of Blades as an ultimate scout for an invasion of Toril through the Plane of Shadow, and Pun-Pun is a 1st level FR Elan.
Omni gains levels through crazy-overwhelming encounters in the Shadow passage, survived through LoBster's backup. Alternatively, someone could figure out how to do Omni at level 1.
Omni's crafting while Pun-Pun's doing the research on Yuan-Ti history, and how to get those wishes, and wriggling free of Elan politics and surveilance.
All of that is charachter creation, and the crazy stuff starts happening in the first round of the first game session. Pun-Pun uses the first wish at the same instant that the Omniscificer jumps out of the tree.
Considering how close that cuts it (less than a minute to spare before Pun-Pun goes cosmic and the DM becomes an "easy if handled properly" encounter), I wouldn't call it an unfair head start.
Edit: also note that being a warforged means that the LoBster-sponsored Toril-scouting Omniscificer has no way to survive without the direct intervention of a god or something.
Also, infinite spot checks means unbelievable image quality and super-summarizing skilz mean that Final Messenger is going to have a heckuva report to file. Can you think of a way to explain every detail of every sound and thought in Toril in 25 words or less? Probably not, but I bet I know who can. After all, an infinite number of facts means an infinite number of obscure words in dead languages that are just barely current enough to be magically translated. Perfect data compression!
The Omniscificer doesn't have his powers until level 4. So, Pun-Pun ascends before the Omniscificer can roll infinite skill checks.
I don't know hot to pull off the Omniscificer at level 1, except in the same way we pull off Pun-Pun at level 1, which sort of defeats the purpose.
Again, I don't think it is possible to judge time before and during level 1. The only reason we can do it between levels is because we can extrapolate from the XP charts and encounters/day table.
Concerning monsters: Savage Species suggest that monsters do not start out at full power. They grow and mature like everyone else. The class progressons given for the monsters are supposed to represent that development.
InnaBinder has provided the web.archive location.
Again, infinity THANKS to Innabinder.
bumpo ... and
"h" - web.archive.org/web/20061112212706/ boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546... , gets
web.archive.org/web/20061112212706/ boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546...
and then change the last 6 digits to get other threads.
Good Freakin' Deal.
EGAD - that didn't work at all. Let's try ...
"h" - web.archive.org/web/20061112212706/
boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546...
BUT all one line
and then change the last 6 digits to get other threads.
Does this work?
I have to say that I like it very much, even more than pum-pum. But there are some math problems with it!!
My un-updated browser (firefox older version) has mangled your post.
Perhaps a trip over to brilliantgameologists.com and re-posting it there would get more action.
From what I can read ... there are a bunch of different Knowledge checks available.
Omni will at that moment Not know any other knowledge checks of any sort, just the one knowledge check.
With Infinite (aleph zero) Knowledge, the assumption is Omni "knows" within that sphere of knowledge
how to do what pun-pun does, and do it sooner.
So far as I remember, this was the first true infinite generated by the CO-board.
Only one other thread discussed the possibility of Aleph_One; and I think it has been lost.
**
EDIT - my browser even mangles my own posts now. Dang.
Summarizing, it is on your DM the information you will recieve, and surely pum-pum is not there.
I came back to the forums after years away for a bit of nostalgia, and to introduce some of my friends to it. Where did everything go? Even the archives are gone. So many memories lost.
The archive.
The 2nd archive.
The 3rd+ archives.
Yep ... multiple board changeovers have sent so much stuff to the great Jimmi Hoffa Under Giants Stadium demi-plane.
"Where did everything go?"
Try minmaxboards ; heck there's even been a few updates.