| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1the_sandmanMay 10, 2008 1:33:18 | I've been tinkering with this character for quite a while now, and would appreciate any C&C that you might offer for me. In particular, I'm still working out the actual feat progression, and would appreciate any advice on additional gear. The build is as follows: Chaotic Good Human Bard 5/Marshal 1/Crusader 14 Essential Starting Stats: Strength 13 (+1) Intelligence: 14 (+2) Charisma: 18 (+4) Feats: Extra Granted Maneuver Snowflake Wardance Travel Devotion Item Familiar Song of the White Raven Blade Meditation (White Raven) Force of Personality Melodic Casting Chaos Music Power Attack Song of the Heart [Eberron power substitution] Die Hard [Crusader lvl10 bonus feat] Skill Focus (Diplomacy) [Marshal lvl1 bonus feat] Alternative Class Features: Take Spellbreaker Song instead of Countersong as per Complete Mage Take Song of the Heart instead of Inspire Competence at 3rd level Flaws: Inattentive (-4 to Listen and Spot), Shaky (-2 to ranged attack rolls) Character Traits: Passionate (+1 to Fortitude, -1 to Will), Reckless (+1 to damage rolls, -1 to attack rolls) Skills: Have 177 ranks to use Use Magical Device 23 Diplomacy 23 Perform (dance) 10 Perform (oratory) 23 Perform (sing) 5 Sense Motive 5 Intimidate 20 Bluff 20 Gather Information 20 Knowledge (history) 5 Knowledge (arcana) 5 Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 5 Knowledge (local) 3 Knowledge (the planes) 1 Knowledge (religion) 1 Speak Language 2 (Infernal, Abyssal) Spellcraft 4 Concentration 1 Decipher Script 1 Starting Languages: Common, Celestial, Draconic Spells: Level 0: Prestidigitation, Light, Ghostharp, Mage Hand, Read Magic, Detect Magic Level 1: Inspirational Boost, Focusing Chant, Improvisation, Distort Speech Level 2: Alter Self, Blur, Whirling Blade Marshal Aura: Motivate Dexterity (add Cha modifier to Dex checks, Dex-based skill checks, initiative checks) Maneuvers: Stance 1: Leading the Charge (Lvl 1) Stance 2: Thicket of Blades (Lvl 3) Stance 3: Aura of Chaos (Lvl 6) Stance 4: Tactics of the Wolf (Lvl 3) Maneuver 1: Leading the Attack (Lvl 1) Maneuver 2: Battle Leader's Charge (Lvl 2) Maneuver 3: White Raven Tactics (Lvl 3) Maneuver 4: White Raven Hammer (Lvl 8) Maneuver 5: War Master's Charge (Lvl 9) Maneuver 6: Mountain Tombstone Strike (Lvl 9) Maneuver 7: Foehammer (Lvl 2) Maneuver 8: Revitalizing Strike (Lvl 3) Maneuver 9: Castigating Strike (Lvl 7) Maneuver 10: Strike of Righteous Vitality (Lvl 9) Maneuver 11: Rallying Strike (Lvl 6) Desired Gear: Harmonizing, White Raven, Devoted Spirit, Transmuting, Keen, Prismatic Burst Crystal Echoblade (+3 Large longsword) w/ Oil Chamber and Wand Chamber[197,410 gp] Vest of Legends (+5 to bard level for determining music bonuses, +5 competence bonus to Diplomacy and Perform checks) [16,000 gp] [Torso} Slippers of Battledancing (+10 ft. to land speed, +5 competence on Tumble checks; with 5 ranks in Perfom (dance), gives +2 insight bonus to initiative checks, allows substitution of Cha mod for Str mod for attack & damage rolls on 1-handed or light weapons as long as takes at least a 10 ft. move action) [33,750 gp] [Feet] Badge of Valor (can use 3 times/day as immediate action to boost Inspire Courage bonus by +1) [1,400 gp] [Throat] +6 Belt of Magnificence (adds +6 to all ability scores[Miniatures Handbook]) [200,000 gp] [Waist] Ring of Freedom of Movement [40,000 gp] [Ring] Ring of Entropic Deflection [8,000 gp] [Ring] Strongarm Bracers [3,000 gp] [Arms] Casting Glove [20,000 gp] [Hands] Minor Cloak of Displacement [24,000 gp] [Shoulders] (If doesn't stack w/Ring of Entropic Deflection, replace w/Cloak of Resistance +5[25,000 gp]) Third Eye Sense [24,000 gp] [Face] Circlet of Persuasion (+3 on Charisma-based checks) [4,500 gp] [Head] Soulforged Celestial Armor (+3 chainmail, considered light armor) of Mobility, Greater Agility, Aporter, Durable, Called, Magic-Eating, Ghost Ward, Radiant, and the Twilight w/Oil Chamber [159,800 gp] [Body] Still have 28,140 gp of 20th lvl WBL to spend on other equipment Heward's Handy Haversack [2,000 gp] Eternal Wand of Sonic Shield [10,900 gp] Oil of Magic Vestment+5 [3,000 gp] Oil of Magic Weapon+5 [3,000 gp] Masterwork Tools (Acquire ones for Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Gather Information, Perform (oratory), all Knowledges) [750 gp] |
| #2arcane-surgeMay 10, 2008 9:13:50 | Find room for Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) for tons of damage? |
| #3WyvernhandMay 10, 2008 10:05:27 | One minor point, Snowflake Wardance requires that you wear light or no armor (check) and wield a 1handed slashing weapon in one hand. This deny's you the possibility to 2hand PA while Wardancing, lowering your damage a bit. Also, I'd consider dropping 2 bard. You are basically held in the decission to get 2nd level spells (AS and WB are amazing) or 9th level maneuvers. You can't have both, but Strike of Righteous Vitality is pretty hot. You don't need both Vest of Legends and Chaos Music. Inspire caps at level 20 unless there is advanced progression I'm unaware of. Chaos Music is only adding 1 to your effective bard level, a very minor increase. The only difference is that you'll get your +4 base bard song at level 16 as opposed to level 15, not a huge deal. Definitely sub in Dragonfire Inspiration. Probably for Blade Meditation. The extra 1.5 damage per point of Inspire Courage over 1-1 PA adds up, especially with Insp Boost, SotH, and Badge all stacked together. You can still do a normal song, but this gives you that option. Especially good with Whirling Blade if you keep the bard levels. Also, you don't need FoP...Crusaders add cha to will saves already, and bard has will as a good save. You can swap Distorting Speach for Protection from Evil if you are that worried about your will save. |
| #4the_sandmanMay 10, 2008 11:22:36 | One minor point, Snowflake Wardance requires that you wear light or no armor (check) and wield a 1handed slashing weapon in one hand. This deny's you the possibility to 2hand PA while Wardancing, lowering your damage a bit. It's light armor. Part of the reason for the celestial armor is that it's considered as light armor despite being, as I recall, either chainmail or a chain shirt. As far as the one-hand thing, I suppose what I'd do is switch from PA to TWF and then purchase a Small longsword, which I could wield in my off-hand. As far as I can tell, Wardance does allow for TWF if both weapons are slashing. Also, I'd consider dropping 2 bard. You are basically held in the decission to get 2nd level spells (AS and WB are amazing) or 9th level maneuvers. You can't have both, but Strike of Righteous Vitality is pretty hot. I'm pretty sure I can; at level 20, my initiator level should be 17. You don't need both Vest of Legends and Chaos Music. Inspire caps at level 20 unless there is advanced progression I'm unaware of. Chaos Music is only adding 1 to your effective bard level, a very minor increase. The only difference is that you'll get your +4 base bard song at level 16 as opposed to level 15, not a huge deal. Odd, I'd thought that there was advanced progression. Also, I'd thought that Chaos Music added +4 to your bard level for all bardic music related abilities, including ability progression, although I can't figure out what the "up to your HD" part means. Definitely sub in Dragonfire Inspiration. Probably for Blade Meditation. The extra 1.5 damage per point of Inspire Courage over 1-1 PA adds up, especially with Insp Boost, SotH, and Badge all stacked together. You can still do a normal song, but this gives you that option. Especially good with Whirling Blade if you keep the bard levels. That's a possibility. The main reasons why I didn't do it were 1)I didn't feel I had the room for the two or three feats necessary (the 3rd feat would be to convert the damage to sonic) and 2)I didn't want to just copy the Bardic Badass build I saw on these boards. Also, you don't need FoP...Crusaders add cha to will saves already, and bard has will as a good save. You can swap Distorting Speech for Protection from Evil if you are that worried about your will save. I think that FoP and the Crusader thing might stack, actually, since Crusader adds Cha to Will saves and FoP replaces Wis with Cha as the primary save attribute. The main reason for FoP aside from Will, though, was roleplay. Just from the name, it seems to fit the sort of uber-Charismatic character I'm building. |
| #5the_sandmanMay 10, 2008 11:26:04 | Also, for even more fun, I built a gestalt progression around this basic combo. The gestalt stats are as follows, with a substitution as per the suggestions in this thread: Bard//Marshal 1 Bard//Fighter 2 Bard//Crusader 4 Bard//Fighter 5 Bard//Crusader 6 Lyric Thaumaturge//Crusader 10 Exemplar//Crusader 20 Feats: Extra Granted Maneuver Snowflake Wardance Travel Devotion Item Familiar Song of the White Raven Force of Personality Melodic Casting Chaos Music Combat Panache Leadership Two-Weapon Fighting [Fighter bonus feat] Blade Meditation (White Raven) [Fighter bonus feat] Song of the Heart [Eberron power substitution] Die Hard [Crusader bonus feat] Skill Focus (Diplomacy) [Marshal lvl1 bonus feat] Improved Initiative [Exemplar bonus feat] Blind-Fight [Exemplar bonus feat] Combat Expertise [Exemplar bonus feat] Captivating Melody [Lyric Thaumaturge bonus feat] Marshal Aura: Motivate Dexterity Extra CL from Lyric Thaumaturge allows extra # of known spells as follows: 1 lvl 1, 2 lvl2, 7 lvl3, 5 lvl4; 1 lvl1 Wizard, 1 lvl2 Wizard 1st lvl: Expeditious Retreat 2nd lvl: Glitterdust, Mesmerizing Glare 3rd lvl: Dispel Magic, Unluck, Phantom Battle, Hesitate, Sonic Shield (Replace w/Voice of the Dragon once Eternal Wand of Sonic Shield acquired) 4th lvl: Baleful Blink, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Thunder Field 1st lvl Wizard: Mage Armor 2nd lvl Wizard: Speak to Allies Extra Crusader lvls allow 2 additional maneuvers: take Order Forged From Chaos and Clarion Call Skill Points available: 219 (177) Use Magical Device 23 Diplomacy 23 Perform (dance) 10 Perform (oratory) 23 Perform (sing) 10 Sense Motive 5 Intimidate 23 Bluff 23 Gather Information 23 Knowledge (history) 5 Knowledge (arcana) 5 Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 5 Knowledge (local) 5 Knowledge (the planes) 5 Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 Knowledge (religion) 5 Knowledge (nature) 5 Speak Language 4 (Infernal, Abyssal, Elven, Dwarven) Spellcraft 5 Decipher Script 5 Concentration 1 Tumble 1 Assume that the maneuvers and spells I've listed here are in addition to the ones from the non-gestalt build, and that the key base stats are the same. Although I might be able to ignore Strength in favor of Constitution if I'm not taking Power Attack. |
| #6the_sandmanMay 10, 2008 11:32:26 | Also, for your perusal, I figured out a few additional little things to add to the character. First, the item familiar details: Longsword is the item Special Abilities: Weapon Ability (Stunning Surge), Increased Sapience, Lesser Power (10 ranks Sense Motive) Stats: 12 Intelligence 16 Wisdom 12 Charisma Languages: Common, Draconic Add Sizing bonus to it for 2500gp cost, if doesn't increase value of item over 200,000gp limit Next, I built a custom bloodline for the character that seemed thematically appropriate: Bloodline: Battle Dragon, Major Order in which bloodline traits gained: +2 on Perform checks, Force of Personality, Constitution +1, +1 natural armor, Battle dragon affinity +2, wingblast 1/day, +2 on Bluff checks, shield other 1/day, Charisma +1, Combat Panache, Battle dragon affinity +4, Water breathing, +2 on Intimidate checks, Water breathing, Strength +1, Battle Fury 1/day, Battle dragon affinity +6, Breath weapon (sonic), +2 on Diplomacy checks, DR 5/evil Additional Feats to take if this bloodline goes in: Dragonsong, Somatic Weaponry Finally, I developed an epic progression for the build, to level 30. That progression is as follows: Jade Phoenix Mage 10//Bard 2/Scout 8 for Gestalt, Jade Phoenix Mage 10 for non-gestalt Maneuvers gained: Wind Stride, Zephyr Dance, Leaping Flame, Desert Tempest, Greater Divine Surge Stance gained: Rising Phoenix Epic Feats: Epic Leadership, Epic Reputation, Music of the Gods, Ranged Inspiration (also Epic Inspiration, if can find some way to take it) Scout bonus feats: Hear the Unseen, Lightning Reflexes Spells gained: Assuming extra Lyric Thaumaturge spells not granted: 1 lvl1, 1 lvl2, 2 lvl3, 3 lvl4, 5 lvl5, 4 lvl6; Assuming extra LT spells granted: As previous + 1 more each of lvl 5, lvl 6, wizard/sorcerer lvl3, lvl4, lvl5, lvl6 Lvl 1: Hypnotism Lvl 2: Blindness/Deafness Lvl 3: Blink (replace w/Displacement once have Greater Blink), Listening Coin, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (replacing Dispel Magic once have Greater Dispel Magic) Lvl 4: Celerity, Ray Deflection, Dimension Door Lvl 5: Greater Blink, Greater Dispel Magic, Dance of Blades, Song of Discord, Renewed Vigor, Body Harmonic Lvl 6: Otto's Irresistable Dance, Superior Resistance, Dirge, Symphonic Nightmare, Snowsong Wizard lvl 3: Either Bigby's Disrupting Hand, Fly, or Arcane Sight Wizard lvl 4: Enervation Wizard lvl 5: Indomitability Wizard lvl 6: True Seeing Again, PEACH is the order of the day here. I'd appreciate any additional recommendations. In particular, would it be a good idea to have the bloodline give me a sonic variant of Dragonfire Inspiration instead of one of the other abilities? Also, which level 3 Wizard/Sorceror spell is the best out of the ones I was looking at? Thank you for your help. |
| #7WyvernhandMay 10, 2008 15:53:34 | It's light armor. Part of the reason for the celestial armor is that it's considered as light armor despite being, as I recall, either chainmail or a chain shirt. As far as the one-hand thing, I suppose what I'd do is switch from PA to TWF and then purchase a Small longsword, which I could wield in my off-hand. As far as I can tell, Wardance does allow for TWF if both weapons are slashing. If you do go TWF, go Dragonfire, and Warblade instead of Crusader. More synergy with Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, and Iron Heart than White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Stone Dragon. Honestly, I think you get the best mileage out of your Crusader maneuvers if you dropped Snowflake Wardance period and got a nice 2hander like a Greatsword or Elven Courtblade to get the better PA return. You shouldn't have a problem hitting with optimized IC and all the other stuff. When you make strikes, you only get 1 hit, gotta make it worth more for the money. If you do go TWF, you can't go large longsword/small longsword. 3.5 has the whole "level of effort" thing going on. You'd be better with a pair of shortswords or kukiris to get both as light and still double up on any weapon related feats/abilities. I'm pretty sure I can; at level 20, my initiator level should be 17. Oh, right...don't worry, I have the dumb, and I can't math. Odd, I'd thought that there was advanced progression. Also, I'd thought that Chaos Music added +4 to your bard level for all bardic music related abilities, including ability progression, although I can't figure out what the "up to your HD" part means. Maybe in the DMG or ELH or something. To the best of my knowledge, IC caps at 20/+4 and that's it. That's a possibility. The main reasons why I didn't do it were 1)I didn't feel I had the room for the two or three feats necessary (the 3rd feat would be to convert the damage to sonic) and 2)I didn't want to just copy the Bardic Badass build I saw on these boards. You don't NEED to change the damage to sonic. You can use normal fire 9/10 times, and when you encounter fire resistant/immune things, you just use the normal bard song. Most of the time it won't matter, and some times you'll fight a creature with the [Cold] subtype and then fire is nice to have. I think that FoP and the Crusader thing might stack, actually, since Crusader adds Cha to Will saves and FoP replaces Wis with Cha as the primary save attribute. The main reason for FoP aside from Will, though, was roleplay. Just from the name, it seems to fit the sort of uber-Charismatic character I'm building. They will stack...no question about that. Whether or not you'll NEED the extra will save is what I'm debating. You have good will save from Bard, some from Crusader, some from your Wisdom due to the Belt of Mag, and all your cha from the Crusader ability. Your will save should be high enough that you don't need to swap stats. Plus, with the Belt of Mag, your cha and wis shouldn't be more than +4-+5 appart, not worth spending a feat on, IMO. |
| #8the_sandmanMay 10, 2008 17:36:48 | If you do go TWF, go Dragonfire, and Warblade instead of Crusader. More synergy with Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, and Iron Heart than White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Stone Dragon. Honestly, I think you get the best mileage out of your Crusader maneuvers if you dropped Snowflake Wardance period and got a nice 2hander like a Greatsword or Elven Courtblade to get the better PA return. You shouldn't have a problem hitting with optimized IC and all the other stuff. When you make strikes, you only get 1 hit, gotta make it worth more for the money. If you do go TWF, you can't go large longsword/small longsword. 3.5 has the whole "level of effort" thing going on. You'd be better with a pair of shortswords or kukris to get both as light and still double up on any weapon related feats/abilities. As far as Crusader vs. Warblade, I figured Crusader fit the character concept better. I'll go back and take a look at the disciplines, though. And in regards to the strikes, the TWF thing would probably be used during whichever battle I spend my daily Travel Devotion on, since that lets me move and full-attack every round for a full minute (thus getting the nice movement related bonuses on every attack in the full attack). For other battles, strikes would be the main part of the combat. If I can find room for it, I might still take Power Attack; as far as I can tell, with Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing, Inspire Courage, and probably a Cha of 34 between level, inherent, and enhancement bonuses, I could theoretically add my entire BAB to my damage rolls and still come out ahead. The question is whether the boost from Snowflake Wardance in that calculation is better than the PA boost with a two-hander but without Snowflake Wardance. Also, I would be using Aura of Chaos stance as much as possible during combat, especially when I'm full-attacking, so I'm trying to use more small die rather than fewer large ones. Two weapons worth of exploding dice could be nice to have. I read you on the kukri thing; I'll probably take one of those instead. The only issue with dropping Snowflake Wardance, aside from character reasons, is that there aren't many other options that can adequately replace it as far as adding Charisma to my attack goes. Virtually all the other options involve feats with the skills of a different class as a prereq, or taking levels in classes I don't want, or LA penalties. Maybe in the DMG or ELH or something. To the best of my knowledge, IC caps at 20/+4 and that's it. Damn, that's a bit irritating. On the flip side, the levels of Crusader would then negate the need for the Vest of Legends, or for Chaos Music if Chaos Music doesn't give me more bard music per day. Especially in the gestalt build. You don't NEED to change the damage to sonic. You can use normal fire 9/10 times, and when you encounter fire resistant/immune things, you just use the normal bard song. Most of the time it won't matter, and some times you'll fight a creature with the [Cold] subtype and then fire is nice to have. *facepalm* For some reason, I didn't think of that. In that case, I'd only take sonic damage if I could convince the DM that having a Major Battle Dragon bloodline would justify Dragonfire Inspiration starting with sonic damage. They will stack...no question about that. Whether or not you'll NEED the extra will save is what I'm debating. You have good will save from Bard, some from Crusader, some from your Wisdom due to the Belt of Mag, and all your cha from the Crusader ability. Your will save should be high enough that you don't need to swap stats. Plus, with the Belt of Mag, your cha and wis shouldn't be more than +4-+5 appart, not worth spending a feat on, IMO. Well, the problem is that I'm almost certainly dumping Wisdom. Also, I'm thinking that instead of the Belt of Mag, I'll get the following: a Belt of Battle w/+2 Amulet of Health affixed to it [18,000gp], adding +6 Charisma enhancement bonus to Cloak of Resistance [making it cost 73,500gp], add a +3 Keen Heavenly Burst Transmuting kukri to gear [98,000gp], buy a Chime of Harmonic Agony [3,100gp]; still have 10,400gp left over from what Belt of Mag+6 cost. Also, the fluff just sounds right. And if I got the bloodline approved, I'd get it for free. |
| #9ChristopherGrovesMay 10, 2008 19:30:12 | Do you need the fighter feats? Why not a mix of other initiating classes instead? |
| #10quickenedwishMay 10, 2008 21:43:55 | Yes, Inspire Courage does have an advanced progression. At 26th level it becomes +5. With 20 effective levels of bard, plus Vest of Legends, plus Masterwork Lute, you can reach it. QW |
| #11the_sandmanMay 10, 2008 21:44:58 | Do you need the fighter feats? Why not a mix of other initiating classes instead? Blade Meditation has always been in my plans for the character, and either Two-Weapon Fighting or Power Attack is likely to be essential. By taking two levels of Fighter instead of the two extra levels of Marshal I'd originally had in the gestalt progression, I free up room for more feats without sacrificing anything too major. Also, it seems like the result of mixing crusader with either warblade or swordsage would be a confusing mess as far as figuring out how you ready and recover your maneuvers, and therefore what maneuvers you have available at any given time. Plus, of course, they don't give me feats right away. |
| #12the_sandmanMay 10, 2008 21:50:44 | Yes, Inspire Courage does have an advanced progression. At 26th level it becomes +5. Actually, I think that I can get it even higher in the gestalt. With Song of the White Raven, the 17 Crusader levels stack with the 10 effective Bard levels to give me a Bard level of 27 for Inspire Courage, before adding item bonuses. Vest of Legends adds another 5 and Chaos Music another 4, for a total bard level of 36 as far as Inspire Courage is concerned. Where is the advanced progression listed, by the way? |