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Lot and lots of attacks

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Kingofswing
Sep 23, 2013 12:55:46 Not sure if this works out but i think it will. Even it it is only 1/day it is still lots and lots of attacks. Build: Monk 3 fighter 3 the zerth coenobite 10 x 4 Feats two weapon fighting, improved and greater so now that is 6 attacks Make him a Xeph with clarity that gives you 7 Now haist him that is 8 Now give him belt of battle and spend all three charges now that is 16 attacks Oops but then there is that level 10 skill of the zerth that lets you take an extra full round action now that makes 24 attacks but only one a day
#2
daedhaed
Sep 23, 2013 16:06:46
now you need the dervishes 1000 cuts ability. use 3 sets of dancing weapons and let a set go each round and on round four pop all that daily stuff and get 192 attacks. use wounding weapons and you'll kill everything.

#3
Andarious-Rosethorn
Sep 23, 2013 17:03:34
You're still better off with a Two-Handed weapon. Two weapon fighting needs bonus damage, usually a bucket full of dice, to even try to keep up with Two-Handed power attack. You'll also get destroyed by Fire Shield and similar effects (Empathic Feedback, etc) with the attack sequence you propose.

#4
Tempest_Stormwind
Sep 24, 2013 12:45:30
It's also been done to death. The "get lots of attacks" thing was prominent around the time of Complete Warrior thanks to effects like the Dervish (and 3e materials like the Anthropomorphic Squid armed with Halfling Skiprocks), but due to low damage output per attack (and to a lesser extent retributive effects like those Andarious mentions), it was always viewed as impractical.

Daedhaed's suggestions are a classic example of why it's impractical. Those methods are ridiculously expensive in terms of gold costs, class levels, and actions, and it only works once a day or so. (Compare to Jean Gray, which is a decent attempt to get that same basic idea working. It only works the way it does because of Chain Spell.) You could also easily outdamage that approach with far greater mobility using a regular old-fashioned ubercharger armed with a broom handle. You just wound up paying a lot of buck for very little bang.

It's not hard to get unlimited attacks in a round if you're pulling extra-action cheese (or are using braid blades), but the greatest number of attacks in a single action that I know of is over one million. On a more practical level, characters who focus on full attacks or Combat Reflexes stunts (which get harder to do as magical mobility improves) can typically deal enough damage with just five to eight attacks per round; they don't need to go beyond that unless they're simply trying to get lots and lots of attacks. (In one of our own games, our main warrior gets six a round without buffs at level 12 (more of his build is based around actually being in a position to deliver all six consistently), and he already insta-splats just about anything he fights.)

Meanwhile, dealing infinite damage in a single punch is actually quite easy (Aura of Chaos + Imbued Healing [Luck] + a 1d2 weapon (i.e. a halfling's gauntlet); punch the Tarrasque and it's in a coma until the end of time). The trick with damage combos is to prevent them from going infinite; the record for that is so big that it simply cannot be contained in a single post even using scientific notation. On a practical level, as has been noted, the basic damage ouput from a reliable Power Attacker with only minimal support is often "enough", with emphasis on the reliable part. (Having two attacks that hit 85% of the time is much better than having five attacks that hit 30% of the time).

So it seems, whether you're looking at this from a theoretical or a practical perspective, it's not all that uber.

This is also not the first time you've tried to use Xeph Celerity, and like your previous attempts (here, here, here, and here) you're still overrating it. An extra attack is only as good as that attack's ability to defeat your opponent, which depends on your available actions (a swift action from a small daily pool on top of a full attack action is not a good exchange for a single extra attack; compare Dancing Mongoose or Snap Kick), your tactical placement (the need for a full attack and a swift action together deny you any form of movement if you wish to try this ability out, unless you also squeeze in some method of moving while full attacking such as Pounce), the attack's accuracy (including attack bonus and ability to foil miss chances; Greater TWF will realistically never hit with all of its penalties (and carries an insane Dexterity prerequisite), which is why most TWFers I know of stop at the basic TWF and use Gloves of the Balanced Hands to copy Improved TWF's effect), and damage (you're lacking bonus damage as usual, and focusing on TWF denies you most of the best of these).

The only thing different about this character from your earlier approaches is that you appear to be emphasizing actions (i.e. looking for ways to get more actions on your turn), which is very good. However, you're using those actions on the worst possible thing (basic attacks without extreme boosts).

I've been working on builds lately, and one of them, I think, would serve to focus on the value of special standard actions over the "I hit it again" approach. The basic chassis is fairly old - Factotum 8 / Warblade 12, with Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, and as many Fonts of Inspiration as you can fit in there. (Some people like iaijutsu on their factotum builds; we can leave that out for now, but all it takes to put it in there is Exotic Weapon: Gnome Quickrazor in place of Power Attack.) The basic idea is to use Cunning Surge - 3 inspiration points (which refresh every encounter) to take an extra standard action - to deliver multiple warblade strikes in a single round, all while keeping your move and swift actions free for movement (or charge maneuvers) and boosts. The build also sports useful Intelligence synergy to many smaller aspects of your character, most dramatically through Brains over Brawn (which, if you look at it, improves your initiative on top of everything else) and Cunning Insight (used to boost strike attacks or shore up a low Will save without spending a counter on Moment of Perfect Mind). You retain the ability to walk up and hit things multiple times if you'd like, but you'll quickly see that multiple strikes - separate standard actions each - will outdo what full attacks could perform in most situations.

(Once you get this down, I'd suggest transitioning to spellcasters (they can put even better things in those standard actions), but we've already discussed that at length and you seem to believe all of them have a single hit point.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kingofswing Sep 23, 2013 12:55:46	Not sure if this works out but i think it will. Even it it is only 1/day it is still lots and lots of attacks. Build: Monk 3 fighter 3 the zerth coenobite 10 x 4 Feats two weapon fighting, improved and greater so now that is 6 attacks Make him a Xeph with clarity that gives you 7 Now haist him that is 8 Now give him belt of battle and spend all three charges now that is 16 attacks Oops but then there is that level 10 skill of the zerth that lets you take an extra full round action now that makes 24 attacks but only one a day
#2 daedhaed Sep 23, 2013 16:06:46	now you need the dervishes 1000 cuts ability. use 3 sets of dancing weapons and let a set go each round and on round four pop all that daily stuff and get 192 attacks. use wounding weapons and you'll kill everything.
#3 Andarious-Rosethorn Sep 23, 2013 17:03:34	You're still better off with a Two-Handed weapon. Two weapon fighting needs bonus damage, usually a bucket full of dice, to even try to keep up with Two-Handed power attack. You'll also get destroyed by Fire Shield and similar effects (Empathic Feedback, etc) with the attack sequence you propose.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 24, 2013 12:45:30	It's also been done to death. The "get lots of attacks" thing was prominent around the time of Complete Warrior thanks to effects like the Dervish (and 3e materials like the Anthropomorphic Squid armed with Halfling Skiprocks), but due to low damage output per attack (and to a lesser extent retributive effects like those Andarious mentions), it was always viewed as impractical. Daedhaed's suggestions are a classic example of why it's impractical. Those methods are ridiculously expensive in terms of gold costs, class levels, and actions, and it only works once a day or so. (Compare to Jean Gray, which is a decent attempt to get that same basic idea working. It only works the way it does because of Chain Spell.) You could also easily outdamage that approach with far greater mobility using a regular old-fashioned ubercharger armed with a broom handle. You just wound up paying a lot of buck for very little bang. It's not hard to get unlimited attacks in a round if you're pulling extra-action cheese (or are using braid blades), but the greatest number of attacks in a single action that I know of is over one million. On a more practical level, characters who focus on full attacks or Combat Reflexes stunts (which get harder to do as magical mobility improves) can typically deal enough damage with just five to eight attacks per round; they don't need to go beyond that unless they're simply trying to get lots and lots of attacks. (In one of our own games, our main warrior gets six a round without buffs at level 12 (more of his build is based around actually being in a position to deliver all six consistently), and he already insta-splats just about anything he fights.) Meanwhile, dealing infinite damage in a single punch is actually quite easy (Aura of Chaos + Imbued Healing [Luck] + a 1d2 weapon (i.e. a halfling's gauntlet); punch the Tarrasque and it's in a coma until the end of time). The trick with damage combos is to prevent them from going infinite; the record for that is so big that it simply cannot be contained in a single post even using scientific notation. On a practical level, as has been noted, the basic damage ouput from a reliable Power Attacker with only minimal support is often "enough", with emphasis on the reliable part. (Having two attacks that hit 85% of the time is much better than having five attacks that hit 30% of the time). So it seems, whether you're looking at this from a theoretical or a practical perspective, it's not all that uber. This is also not the first time you've tried to use Xeph Celerity, and like your previous attempts (here, here, here, and here) you're still overrating it. An extra attack is only as good as that attack's ability to defeat your opponent, which depends on your available actions (a swift action from a small daily pool on top of a full attack action is not a good exchange for a single extra attack; compare Dancing Mongoose or Snap Kick), your tactical placement (the need for a full attack and a swift action together deny you any form of movement if you wish to try this ability out, unless you also squeeze in some method of moving while full attacking such as Pounce), the attack's accuracy (including attack bonus and ability to foil miss chances; Greater TWF will realistically never hit with all of its penalties (and carries an insane Dexterity prerequisite), which is why most TWFers I know of stop at the basic TWF and use Gloves of the Balanced Hands to copy Improved TWF's effect), and damage (you're lacking bonus damage as usual, and focusing on TWF denies you most of the best of these). The only thing different about this character from your earlier approaches is that you appear to be emphasizing actions (i.e. looking for ways to get more actions on your turn), which is very good. However, you're using those actions on the worst possible thing (basic attacks without extreme boosts). I've been working on builds lately, and one of them, I think, would serve to focus on the value of special standard actions over the "I hit it again" approach. The basic chassis is fairly old - Factotum 8 / Warblade 12, with Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion, and as many Fonts of Inspiration as you can fit in there. (Some people like iaijutsu on their factotum builds; we can leave that out for now, but all it takes to put it in there is Exotic Weapon: Gnome Quickrazor in place of Power Attack.) The basic idea is to use Cunning Surge - 3 inspiration points (which refresh every encounter) to take an extra standard action - to deliver multiple warblade strikes in a single round, all while keeping your move and swift actions free for movement (or charge maneuvers) and boosts. The build also sports useful Intelligence synergy to many smaller aspects of your character, most dramatically through Brains over Brawn (which, if you look at it, improves your initiative on top of everything else) and Cunning Insight (used to boost strike attacks or shore up a low Will save without spending a counter on Moment of Perfect Mind). You retain the ability to walk up and hit things multiple times if you'd like, but you'll quickly see that multiple strikes - separate standard actions each - will outdo what full attacks could perform in most situations. (Once you get this down, I'd suggest transitioning to spellcasters (they can put even better things in those standard actions), but we've already discussed that at length and you seem to believe all of them have a single hit point.)