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Lots and lots of natural attacks

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zylo_drizzt
Oct 09, 2012 5:22:36 I am generally involved with a few diffrent campaigns at the same time and generally have to come up with 1+ characters or just toying around with ideas which brings me to my request. as of right now im going to be part of an 8th level campaign where i wish to play a warhulk. I figured the best way to get all those melee aoe is to use natural attacks. Goals: having as high a str as possible, Having good reach, going warhulk from minatures handbook. What i got so far: Bab 5 class (undecided) feral temlate (savage spiecies) half minotaur (one of the mm's) Gheden (one of the dragon mags) orc (possibly the dragon touched orc from dragon magic as well as a frost orc sub species but undecided). Stipulations: 1st level starting gold, classes only from phb 1 and 2, everything else from wizards fair game as i understand it.
#2
Krusk
Oct 09, 2012 17:04:26
I'd try for a level of monk, to get flurry in there somewhere on unarmed strikes.
#3
frost.fire
Oct 10, 2012 2:14:02 Can you be a warshaper and a warhulk ? Also I would probably one level monk dip then look into barbarian
#4
Maat_Mons
Oct 10, 2012 2:47:14
I'm confused by this question. Warhulk's AoE abilities are all either a full-round action or a standard action. How does getting more natural weapons help them?
#5
zylo_drizzt
Oct 10, 2012 18:41:04
from the way i read it, it allows you to make a full attack as something like a whirlwind attack which means all your attacks by the way i read it but maybe im wrong
#6
alsebra
Oct 11, 2012 13:27:59

from the way i read it, it allows you to make a full attack as something like a whirlwind attack which means all your attacks by the way i read it but maybe im wrong

The way I'm reading it (which could be incorrect, honestly) is that Great Swing (and its upgrades) only allow you to land one hit on each targetted enemy. From the rules:

Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender.

Mighty Swing states:

...is like a great swing, except that it is a standard action rather than a full-round action.

From what I can figure, the War Hulk is basically supposed to be wielding some sort of reach weapon (to target squares further away) and have access to huge boulders. When the character reaches 10th level (Massive Swing), they're going to ginsu anything within their threatened range with ease (one attack against each creature within range, with a total +20 Str from the class).
#7
zylo_drizzt
Oct 11, 2012 15:23:28 exactly as written

Mighty swing (EX): starting at 4th level, a warhulk can make a mighty swing. A mighty swing is like a great swing, except it is a standard action rather than a full round action. Thus the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.
#8
Tempest_Stormwind
Oct 11, 2012 15:28:37 Check errata? That doesn't make sense. You can't make multiple standard actions if you have multiple attacks.
#9
zylo_drizzt
Oct 11, 2012 16:50:21 i checked and instead of standard action its an attack action, not sure on diffrence that makes. so it looks like this now

Mighty swing (EX): starting at 4th level, a warhulk can make a mighty swing. A mighty swing is like a great swing, except it is an attack action rather than a full round action. Thus the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.
#10
Tempest_Stormwind
Oct 11, 2012 17:30:33
i checked and instead of standard action its an attack action, not sure on diffrence that makes. so it looks like this now

Mighty swing (EX): starting at 4th level, a warhulk can make a mighty swing. A mighty swing is like a great swing, except it is an attack action rather than a full round action. Thus the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.

That does allow multiple attacks - it's a pretty significant change. (As a standard action, you can make one attack action. As a full-round action, you can make as many attack actions as you have attacks available. Note that an attack action is not anything you can take as a standard: otherwise, high-level mages could throw out multiple standard-action spells in one round without any extra magical support.)

However, it won't work with natural weapons.
A mighty swing is like a great swing, except it is an attack action...
So let's look at Great Swing:
In melee, as a full-round action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to each other (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures in those squares. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender.
That's clear that you spend the action, then make one attack roll (it's clear from other parts of the aility that it's in melee) which hits the whole area.
Thus, Mighty Swing means you spend an attack action and hit three squares. Note that this is not the same thing as attacking with a natural weapon.

Basically, your base attack bonus gives you a number of attack actions per round. Attacking with a natural weapon doesn't use these actions - you stick the natural attacks on the end of an attack routine. (This is actually why you were looking for "lots and lots of natural attacks" in the first place - using them in a full attack doesn't use up your attack actions.) You have to use your base attack - that is, your weapon attacks - to use Mighty Swing.

Note that the War Hulk doesn't get any base attack progression at all. Mighty Swing isn't as useful as you'd think as a result. (This also prevents it from being max-out Power Attacked, but the strength progression is high enough to usually compensate for this.)

If you want an ability to add AoEs to all of your weapons, the only one I'm aware of is the War Mind (at level 5 it gives a modified form of Mighty Swing that triggers on any melee attack). If you're looking for something to use with your war hulk instead, rather than working on multiple natural attacks, I'd work on accelerating your number of weapon attacks. A war hulk / warblade emphasizing Tiger Claw does this quite well (the Mongoose boosts), and as a side note it also gives you single-target attacks which have DCs based off of Strength. (See the Feral Druid build in my signature as an example of how ridiculous this can get.) A basic approach (Warblade 5 / War Hulk X / Warblade 15-X) would work out well, I think. (Decide what war hulk features you want and what maneuvers you want, and balance accordingly; the issue is getting enough +Strength and a high enough IL at the same time.)

EDIT: I just noticed you said "only classes from the PHB and PHB2" (although you clearly have more books to work from than that - Feral War Hulk, etc.). You won't get a particular standout here, especially if you never advance your base attack high enough to capitalize on it. Your best bet is probably the basic Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / War Hulk X entry.
#11
The_Fred
Oct 11, 2012 18:07:23 Does this mean you can't e.g. trip with a natural weapon? (Not with a Trip weapon, as in instead of an attack like with a normal trip)
#12
Maat_Mons
Oct 11, 2012 18:24:11
Do mighty swing and massive swing work on attacks of opportunity?
#13
zylo_drizzt
Oct 15, 2012 18:18:41 honestly don't know the answers to those but im gonna keep this in my back pocket for a warshaper werecreature warhulk, sounds like all sortsa fun
#14
frost.fire
Oct 16, 2012 9:17:15 Should go feral instead of werecreature (its a way cjeaper la and racial hd)
#15
frost.fire
Oct 16, 2012 9:21:58 Should go feral instead of werecreature (its a way cheaper la and racial hd)
#16
zylo_drizzt
Oct 16, 2012 17:42:15 yes but with warshaper i can grow lots and lots of natural with a pretty hefty str
#17
frost.fire
Oct 16, 2012 17:51:40 Maybe use totemist to qualify too :p
#18
draco1119
Oct 16, 2012 17:52:52
yes but with warshaper i can grow lots and lots of natural with a pretty hefty str

Why not make your base race Changeling or Shifter? They're both +0 LA Shapeshifter races, so you can qualify for Warshaper.
#19
zylo_drizzt
Oct 16, 2012 18:32:42 i had considered that except i wanted as much str as possible though i suppose that +4 str and con make up for what id lose and when i change shape as a changiling would i still be large? and shifter would only be when he shifts for warshaper.
#20
frost.fire
Oct 16, 2012 18:42:31 You would need a spell to make you large and have a pretty open dm
#21
zylo_drizzt
Oct 16, 2012 18:48:19 half minotaur makes me large but changed shape would i still be able to be large?
#22
draco1119
Oct 16, 2012 19:52:21
and shifter would only be when he shifts for warshaper.

Nope; All you have to do is have the type in order to qualify. You don't have to shift to be able to use it. You can get the Str bonus by getting Longtooth, Razorclaw, or Gorebrute (RoE) trait. You can even become a Large creature with the capstone ability of Weretouched Master.
half minotaur makes me large but changed shape would i still be able to be large?

Why wouldn't you?
#23
rufusrhuckus
Oct 16, 2012 23:58:46 You wanted a high strength? have you thought of using a Half ogre(race)/half-dragon(template or optional 3 level racial class from races of dragon i think) as a race. we had brainstormed a long time ago . the great thing with that is you get wings and a with that strength so you problem would never be encumbered enough not to fly if you needed to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zylo_drizzt Oct 09, 2012 5:22:36	I am generally involved with a few diffrent campaigns at the same time and generally have to come up with 1+ characters or just toying around with ideas which brings me to my request. as of right now im going to be part of an 8th level campaign where i wish to play a warhulk. I figured the best way to get all those melee aoe is to use natural attacks. Goals: having as high a str as possible, Having good reach, going warhulk from minatures handbook. What i got so far: Bab 5 class (undecided) feral temlate (savage spiecies) half minotaur (one of the mm's) Gheden (one of the dragon mags) orc (possibly the dragon touched orc from dragon magic as well as a frost orc sub species but undecided). Stipulations: 1st level starting gold, classes only from phb 1 and 2, everything else from wizards fair game as i understand it.
#2 Krusk Oct 09, 2012 17:04:26	I'd try for a level of monk, to get flurry in there somewhere on unarmed strikes.
#3 frost.fire Oct 10, 2012 2:14:02	Can you be a warshaper and a warhulk ? Also I would probably one level monk dip then look into barbarian
#4 Maat_Mons Oct 10, 2012 2:47:14	I'm confused by this question. Warhulk's AoE abilities are all either a full-round action or a standard action. How does getting more natural weapons help them?
#5 zylo_drizzt Oct 10, 2012 18:41:04	from the way i read it, it allows you to make a full attack as something like a whirlwind attack which means all your attacks by the way i read it but maybe im wrong
#6 alsebra Oct 11, 2012 13:27:59	from the way i read it, it allows you to make a full attack as something like a whirlwind attack which means all your attacks by the way i read it but maybe im wrong The way I'm reading it (which could be incorrect, honestly) is that Great Swing (and its upgrades) only allow you to land one hit on each targetted enemy. From the rules: Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender. Mighty Swing states: ...is like a great swing, except that it is a standard action rather than a full-round action. From what I can figure, the War Hulk is basically supposed to be wielding some sort of reach weapon (to target squares further away) and have access to huge boulders. When the character reaches 10th level (Massive Swing), they're going to ginsu anything within their threatened range with ease (one attack against each creature within range, with a total +20 Str from the class).
#7 zylo_drizzt Oct 11, 2012 15:23:28	exactly as written Mighty swing (EX): starting at 4th level, a warhulk can make a mighty swing. A mighty swing is like a great swing, except it is a standard action rather than a full round action. Thus the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 11, 2012 15:28:37	Check errata? That doesn't make sense. You can't make multiple standard actions if you have multiple attacks.
#9 zylo_drizzt Oct 11, 2012 16:50:21	i checked and instead of standard action its an attack action, not sure on diffrence that makes. so it looks like this now Mighty swing (EX): starting at 4th level, a warhulk can make a mighty swing. A mighty swing is like a great swing, except it is an attack action rather than a full round action. Thus the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round.
#10 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 11, 2012 17:30:33	i checked and instead of standard action its an attack action, not sure on diffrence that makes. so it looks like this now Mighty swing (EX): starting at 4th level, a warhulk can make a mighty swing. A mighty swing is like a great swing, except it is an attack action rather than a full round action. Thus the character can move and make a mighty swing or (if he can make multiple attacks) make multiple mighty swings in a single round. That does allow multiple attacks - it's a pretty significant change. (As a standard action, you can make one attack action. As a full-round action, you can make as many attack actions as you have attacks available. Note that an attack action is not anything you can take as a standard: otherwise, high-level mages could throw out multiple standard-action spells in one round without any extra magical support.) However, it won't work with natural weapons. A mighty swing is like a great swing, except it is an attack action... So let's look at Great Swing: In melee, as a full-round action, the war hulk can choose three squares adjacent to each other (he must threaten all of them). His attack applies to all creatures in those squares. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender. That's clear that you spend the action, then make one attack roll (it's clear from other parts of the aility that it's in melee) which hits the whole area. Thus, Mighty Swing means you spend an attack action and hit three squares. Note that this is not the same thing as attacking with a natural weapon. Basically, your base attack bonus gives you a number of attack actions per round. Attacking with a natural weapon doesn't use these actions - you stick the natural attacks on the end of an attack routine. (This is actually why you were looking for "lots and lots of natural attacks" in the first place - using them in a full attack doesn't use up your attack actions.) You have to use your base attack - that is, your weapon attacks - to use Mighty Swing. Note that the War Hulk doesn't get any base attack progression at all. Mighty Swing isn't as useful as you'd think as a result. (This also prevents it from being max-out Power Attacked, but the strength progression is high enough to usually compensate for this.) If you want an ability to add AoEs to all of your weapons, the only one I'm aware of is the War Mind (at level 5 it gives a modified form of Mighty Swing that triggers on any melee attack). If you're looking for something to use with your war hulk instead, rather than working on multiple natural attacks, I'd work on accelerating your number of weapon attacks. A war hulk / warblade emphasizing Tiger Claw does this quite well (the Mongoose boosts), and as a side note it also gives you single-target attacks which have DCs based off of Strength. (See the Feral Druid build in my signature as an example of how ridiculous this can get.) A basic approach (Warblade 5 / War Hulk X / Warblade 15-X) would work out well, I think. (Decide what war hulk features you want and what maneuvers you want, and balance accordingly; the issue is getting enough +Strength and a high enough IL at the same time.) EDIT: I just noticed you said "only classes from the PHB and PHB2" (although you clearly have more books to work from than that - Feral War Hulk, etc.). You won't get a particular standout here, especially if you never advance your base attack high enough to capitalize on it. Your best bet is probably the basic Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 / War Hulk X entry.
#11 The_Fred Oct 11, 2012 18:07:23	Does this mean you can't e.g. trip with a natural weapon? (Not with a Trip weapon, as in instead of an attack like with a normal trip)
#12 Maat_Mons Oct 11, 2012 18:24:11	Do mighty swing and massive swing work on attacks of opportunity?
#13 zylo_drizzt Oct 15, 2012 18:18:41	honestly don't know the answers to those but im gonna keep this in my back pocket for a warshaper werecreature warhulk, sounds like all sortsa fun
#14 frost.fire Oct 16, 2012 9:17:15	Should go feral instead of werecreature (its a way cjeaper la and racial hd)
#15 frost.fire Oct 16, 2012 9:21:58	Should go feral instead of werecreature (its a way cheaper la and racial hd)
#16 zylo_drizzt Oct 16, 2012 17:42:15	yes but with warshaper i can grow lots and lots of natural with a pretty hefty str
#17 frost.fire Oct 16, 2012 17:51:40	Maybe use totemist to qualify too :p
#18 draco1119 Oct 16, 2012 17:52:52	yes but with warshaper i can grow lots and lots of natural with a pretty hefty str Why not make your base race Changeling or Shifter? They're both +0 LA Shapeshifter races, so you can qualify for Warshaper.
#19 zylo_drizzt Oct 16, 2012 18:32:42	i had considered that except i wanted as much str as possible though i suppose that +4 str and con make up for what id lose and when i change shape as a changiling would i still be large? and shifter would only be when he shifts for warshaper.
#20 frost.fire Oct 16, 2012 18:42:31	You would need a spell to make you large and have a pretty open dm
#21 zylo_drizzt Oct 16, 2012 18:48:19	half minotaur makes me large but changed shape would i still be able to be large?
#22 draco1119 Oct 16, 2012 19:52:21	and shifter would only be when he shifts for warshaper. Nope; All you have to do is have the type in order to qualify. You don't have to shift to be able to use it. You can get the Str bonus by getting Longtooth, Razorclaw, or Gorebrute (RoE) trait. You can even become a Large creature with the capstone ability of Weretouched Master. half minotaur makes me large but changed shape would i still be able to be large? Why wouldn't you?
#23 rufusrhuckus Oct 16, 2012 23:58:46	You wanted a high strength? have you thought of using a Half ogre(race)/half-dragon(template or optional 3 level racial class from races of dragon i think) as a race. we had brainstormed a long time ago . the great thing with that is you get wings and a with that strength so you problem would never be encumbered enough not to fly if you needed to.