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lots of tripping

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
meatcurains82
Jul 29, 2010 13:21:14
I have tossed around the idea of a character that uses two chains and trips people. how effective is tripping? i havent had any experience with it or even know where to start.
#2
phaedrusxy
Jul 29, 2010 13:37:20 It can be extremely effective at the lower levels, and still decent against some enemies at the mid levels. At the upper levels, most stuff can either fly, is just too damned big and strong to trip (and maybe has a bunch of legs, or whatever...), or has Freedom of Movement.
#3
meatcurains82
Jul 29, 2010 13:39:11 so your saying abondon ship? lol

im just looking for something new and interesting to play. im use to either being a stealth type or a up in your face fighter. I have tried spell chuckers but cant really get into them.
#4
Balthanon
Jul 29, 2010 15:06:02 Flying enemies can be tripped (it stalls them and they fall 150 feet) and Freedom of Movement doesn't actually protect against tripping. Freedom of Movement only protects you from magical impediments to movement, makes you impossible to grapple, and allows you to move normally underwater.

Tripping can be effective for quite awhile in general, though as you go up against things that are much larger than you it's going to be less effective. Up through mid-levels, feats like Jotunbrud, Wolf Berserker, and Improved Trip can give you a sizeable advantage though. Aside from that, you are really just looking at adding as much as possible to your Strength score (or Dexterity if you want to play a Swordsage focusing on the Mighty Throw line of Setting Sun maneuvers).

A Mighty Throw by a Swordsage/Barbarian (a combination I actually like a lot) with the feats listed above would have a trip check of 16 + Str modifier, possibly as early as 3rd level:

1 - Swordsage - Jotunbrud, [Human Bonus Feat]
2 - Barbarian - (rage)
3 - Barbarian - Wolf Berserker, (Improved Trip)

If you're willing to sacrifice the better skill points/skill list at 1st level, you could have all of the feats by 2nd level as a straight barbarian. If you have another means of increasing your size (party wizard, psionics, etc...) then you could also sacrifice Jotunbrud and make the race on that orc-- that will give you an additional +4 to Str.

At high levels, you can bump up your trip modifier with sweeping on your weapon and maybe one or two others. You're probably not going to be tossing around Colossal great wyrms (though given the bonuses based on maneuverability, it might be feasible...), but you could still be pretty effective against a fairly wide range of enemies.
#5
phaedrusxy
Jul 29, 2010 20:36:58 The Sage's house rules on tripping flying creatures, while decent, aren't actually in the SRD that I know of.

Likewise the list of things FoM protects against isn't inclusive. It's descriptive, i.e. it's a list of examples. It protects against similar things that aren't explicitly on the list, also.
#6
Gavinfox
Jul 29, 2010 23:59:35

I have tossed around the idea of a character that uses two chains and trips people. how effective is tripping? i havent had any experience with it or even know where to start.

In fact, using "chains to trip people" is one of the few ways of actually making the fighter viable at being able to do, well, anything. It gives the fighter a useful schtick to do that is situationally useful rather than, say, the fighter not having anything useful to do in combat except by DM fiat. Does anyone have a link to the current and most modernized version of the fighter-20 chain tripper?

*Checks*

Look for feats like:

Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Two Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain (this is different than Spiked Chain, this one is 1d6, and can have reach OR be a 1d6/1d6 for use with two weapon fighting. It's in Oriental Adventures, and it was *not* changed in the Dragon Magazine update to Oriental Adventures which made OA 3.5 compatible)
Improved Trip
Double Hit
Overhead Thrust
Sidestep
Evasive Reflexes
Stand Still
Knock-down
Robilar's Gambit
Karmic Strike
Hold the Line
Mage Slayer
Jotunbrud
Deft Opportunist
Defensive Sweep
Improved Combat Reflexes
Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades

Basically, with enough of these, if they get anywhere near you, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. if they cast defensively, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. if they take a five foot step, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. if they charge into your threatened area, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. If they attack, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. If they do nothing, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them, etc. etc. etc. You're a one trick pony, but it is a USEFUL trick, and you do it well.
#7
hsien
Jul 30, 2010 7:21:19
The Sage's house rules on tripping flying creatures, while decent, aren't actually in the SRD that I know of.

Likewise the list of things FoM protects against isn't inclusive. It's descriptive, i.e. it's a list of examples. It protects against similar things that aren't explicitly on the list, also.

AFB's
As I recall, tripping of flying creatures is covered in the dmg, under flying movement.
Tripped creatures go into a stall.

Tripping vs FoM, could be argued either way, as tripping does not prevent/restrict movement, like the examples provided. I would say that FoM does not apply to trip, but could apply to attacks/movement while prone (after trip).

#8
Balthanon
Jul 30, 2010 8:30:38
The Sage's house rules on tripping flying creatures, while decent, aren't actually in the SRD that I know of.

Likewise the list of things FoM protects against isn't inclusive. It's descriptive, i.e. it's a list of examples. It protects against similar things that aren't explicitly on the list, also.

The stalling is in the Rules Compendium as well, though I don't think the maneuverability modifiers made it in.

For Freedom of Movement, to me the spell reads more like a list of specific areas that it impacts. Within those areas, yes, it is only giving examples-- but it's still limited, it isn't just a blanket "anything which impacts movement and attacks".

"This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic... (list of examples). The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple... (remainder).

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater... (remainder)."

The "even under" modifies the first portion of the first sentence, limiting it to magical effects. The second sentence provides another benefit. And the second paragraph provides the last benefit.

I think it's a legitimate reading and it reduces some of the "a 4th level spell trumps everything" problem at higher levels a bit while still leaving the spell more than worthwhile.
#9
streamofthesky
Jul 30, 2010 23:15:47 I don't think FoM should prevent tripping.

As for the OP, the thing is lots of creatures will be immune to trip due to flight, or being an ooze or snake whatever. Others will be very big and strong. Trip is a straight strength check, only size and str matters. Monsters as you level up, at least the melee brutes, gain in size and str MUCH faster than you as a player can. So it isn't a great mid/high level tactic, IMHO. A swordsage gets decent bonuses on the check and gets very nice trip and throw options, but in general it's tough to optimize your check result to keep up with the monsters.
#10
hsien
Jul 31, 2010 7:35:41 Flight does not make the monster immune to trip, it sends it into a stall which if it's close enough to ground before it can recover will also cause falling damage.

Master Thrower, Ranged Trip is nice..damage and then check for trip, which you get to use Dex for
Having a Marshall in group with Art Of War also helps even out trip checks.
#11
emoduck
Jul 31, 2010 8:19:44
When making a tripping character, I always like to look into ways of getting more arms and then using whips to do the job. How optimised this is is debatable, but I love the image of someone with six arms whirling whips around. Templates like Insectile and Obah-Blessed, and races like Thri-Kreen, give you more arms - and hence more weapons - to attempt more trips in a round. The Multi-Weapon Fighting feat is of course required, and though I haven't seen an 'Oversized Multi-weapon Fighting' feat printed, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to make Oversized Two-weapon Fighting count for this purpose.

The Lasher prestige class from Sword & Fist helps with making whips more viable. I'm not actually familiar with any one-handed chain weapons, but having several sets of arms still ought to make wielding more chains possible.

The Tome of Battle classes are also kind of unfamiliar to me, but I did read through some of the maneuvers, and the Setting Sun school seemed to offer some really nice abilities for a tripper.
#12
hsien
Jul 31, 2010 13:24:34 In DMG, Oriental weapons, theres Kusari-Gama
It's one handed, gives reach and can be used to trip; iirc.
#13
phaedrusxy
Aug 01, 2010 19:53:11 Flying creatures can only stall if they have a minimum forward speed.
#14
taylors005
Aug 12, 2010 8:16:03 there is a prestige class in the Drow of the underdark that eventually grant the ability to use spiked chains as a 1handed weapon
#15
lormador
Aug 12, 2010 10:25:51 Tripping is a decent tactic for fighters, but one shouldn't invest absolutely everything in it. There is overlap with a related technique that works very well at high level.

In particular, Standstill. Just when Strength and size get hard to deal with, Reflex saves get really bad. Reach and attacks of opportunity are just what you want for Standstill.

If you can wind it all up with Thicket of Blades, Knockback, and Stormguard Warrior (King of Feats), I predict a really fun turn for a melee character. Even against an ooze, purple worm, etc.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 meatcurains82 Jul 29, 2010 13:21:14	I have tossed around the idea of a character that uses two chains and trips people. how effective is tripping? i havent had any experience with it or even know where to start.
#2 phaedrusxy Jul 29, 2010 13:37:20	It can be extremely effective at the lower levels, and still decent against some enemies at the mid levels. At the upper levels, most stuff can either fly, is just too damned big and strong to trip (and maybe has a bunch of legs, or whatever...), or has Freedom of Movement.
#3 meatcurains82 Jul 29, 2010 13:39:11	so your saying abondon ship? lol im just looking for something new and interesting to play. im use to either being a stealth type or a up in your face fighter. I have tried spell chuckers but cant really get into them.
#4 Balthanon Jul 29, 2010 15:06:02	Flying enemies can be tripped (it stalls them and they fall 150 feet) and Freedom of Movement doesn't actually protect against tripping. Freedom of Movement only protects you from magical impediments to movement, makes you impossible to grapple, and allows you to move normally underwater. Tripping can be effective for quite awhile in general, though as you go up against things that are much larger than you it's going to be less effective. Up through mid-levels, feats like Jotunbrud, Wolf Berserker, and Improved Trip can give you a sizeable advantage though. Aside from that, you are really just looking at adding as much as possible to your Strength score (or Dexterity if you want to play a Swordsage focusing on the Mighty Throw line of Setting Sun maneuvers). A Mighty Throw by a Swordsage/Barbarian (a combination I actually like a lot) with the feats listed above would have a trip check of 16 + Str modifier, possibly as early as 3rd level: 1 - Swordsage - Jotunbrud, [Human Bonus Feat] 2 - Barbarian - (rage) 3 - Barbarian - Wolf Berserker, (Improved Trip) If you're willing to sacrifice the better skill points/skill list at 1st level, you could have all of the feats by 2nd level as a straight barbarian. If you have another means of increasing your size (party wizard, psionics, etc...) then you could also sacrifice Jotunbrud and make the race on that orc-- that will give you an additional +4 to Str. At high levels, you can bump up your trip modifier with sweeping on your weapon and maybe one or two others. You're probably not going to be tossing around Colossal great wyrms (though given the bonuses based on maneuverability, it might be feasible...), but you could still be pretty effective against a fairly wide range of enemies.
#5 phaedrusxy Jul 29, 2010 20:36:58	The Sage's house rules on tripping flying creatures, while decent, aren't actually in the SRD that I know of. Likewise the list of things FoM protects against isn't inclusive. It's descriptive, i.e. it's a list of examples. It protects against similar things that aren't explicitly on the list, also.
#6 Gavinfox Jul 29, 2010 23:59:35	I have tossed around the idea of a character that uses two chains and trips people. how effective is tripping? i havent had any experience with it or even know where to start. In fact, using "chains to trip people" is one of the few ways of actually making the fighter viable at being able to do, well, anything. It gives the fighter a useful schtick to do that is situationally useful rather than, say, the fighter not having anything useful to do in combat except by DM fiat. Does anyone have a link to the current and most modernized version of the fighter-20 chain tripper? Checks Look for feats like: Combat Reflexes Combat Expertise Two Weapon Fighting Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain (this is different than Spiked Chain, this one is 1d6, and can have reach OR be a 1d6/1d6 for use with two weapon fighting. It's in Oriental Adventures, and it was not changed in the Dragon Magazine update to Oriental Adventures which made OA 3.5 compatible) Improved Trip Double Hit Overhead Thrust Sidestep Evasive Reflexes Stand Still Knock-down Robilar's Gambit Karmic Strike Hold the Line Mage Slayer Jotunbrud Deft Opportunist Defensive Sweep Improved Combat Reflexes Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades Basically, with enough of these, if they get anywhere near you, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. if they cast defensively, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. if they take a five foot step, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. if they charge into your threatened area, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. If they attack, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them. If they do nothing, they provoke and you have a few chances to trip them, etc. etc. etc. You're a one trick pony, but it is a USEFUL trick, and you do it well.
#7 hsien Jul 30, 2010 7:21:19	The Sage's house rules on tripping flying creatures, while decent, aren't actually in the SRD that I know of. Likewise the list of things FoM protects against isn't inclusive. It's descriptive, i.e. it's a list of examples. It protects against similar things that aren't explicitly on the list, also. AFB's As I recall, tripping of flying creatures is covered in the dmg, under flying movement. Tripped creatures go into a stall. Tripping vs FoM, could be argued either way, as tripping does not prevent/restrict movement, like the examples provided. I would say that FoM does not apply to trip, but could apply to attacks/movement while prone (after trip).
#8 Balthanon Jul 30, 2010 8:30:38	The Sage's house rules on tripping flying creatures, while decent, aren't actually in the SRD that I know of. Likewise the list of things FoM protects against isn't inclusive. It's descriptive, i.e. it's a list of examples. It protects against similar things that aren't explicitly on the list, also. The stalling is in the Rules Compendium as well, though I don't think the maneuverability modifiers made it in. For Freedom of Movement, to me the spell reads more like a list of specific areas that it impacts. Within those areas, yes, it is only giving examples-- but it's still limited, it isn't just a blanket "anything which impacts movement and attacks". "This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic... (list of examples). The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple... (remainder). The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater... (remainder)." The "even under" modifies the first portion of the first sentence, limiting it to magical effects. The second sentence provides another benefit. And the second paragraph provides the last benefit. I think it's a legitimate reading and it reduces some of the "a 4th level spell trumps everything" problem at higher levels a bit while still leaving the spell more than worthwhile.
#9 streamofthesky Jul 30, 2010 23:15:47	I don't think FoM should prevent tripping. As for the OP, the thing is lots of creatures will be immune to trip due to flight, or being an ooze or snake whatever. Others will be very big and strong. Trip is a straight strength check, only size and str matters. Monsters as you level up, at least the melee brutes, gain in size and str MUCH faster than you as a player can. So it isn't a great mid/high level tactic, IMHO. A swordsage gets decent bonuses on the check and gets very nice trip and throw options, but in general it's tough to optimize your check result to keep up with the monsters.
#10 hsien Jul 31, 2010 7:35:41	Flight does not make the monster immune to trip, it sends it into a stall which if it's close enough to ground before it can recover will also cause falling damage. Master Thrower, Ranged Trip is nice..damage and then check for trip, which you get to use Dex for Having a Marshall in group with Art Of War also helps even out trip checks.
#11 emoduck Jul 31, 2010 8:19:44	When making a tripping character, I always like to look into ways of getting more arms and then using whips to do the job. How optimised this is is debatable, but I love the image of someone with six arms whirling whips around. Templates like Insectile and Obah-Blessed, and races like Thri-Kreen, give you more arms - and hence more weapons - to attempt more trips in a round. The Multi-Weapon Fighting feat is of course required, and though I haven't seen an 'Oversized Multi-weapon Fighting' feat printed, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to make Oversized Two-weapon Fighting count for this purpose. The Lasher prestige class from Sword & Fist helps with making whips more viable. I'm not actually familiar with any one-handed chain weapons, but having several sets of arms still ought to make wielding more chains possible. The Tome of Battle classes are also kind of unfamiliar to me, but I did read through some of the maneuvers, and the Setting Sun school seemed to offer some really nice abilities for a tripper.
#12 hsien Jul 31, 2010 13:24:34	In DMG, Oriental weapons, theres Kusari-Gama It's one handed, gives reach and can be used to trip; iirc.
#13 phaedrusxy Aug 01, 2010 19:53:11	Flying creatures can only stall if they have a minimum forward speed.
#14 taylors005 Aug 12, 2010 8:16:03	there is a prestige class in the Drow of the underdark that eventually grant the ability to use spiked chains as a 1handed weapon
#15 lormador Aug 12, 2010 10:25:51	Tripping is a decent tactic for fighters, but one shouldn't invest absolutely everything in it. There is overlap with a related technique that works very well at high level. In particular, Standstill. Just when Strength and size get hard to deal with, Reflex saves get really bad. Reach and attacks of opportunity are just what you want for Standstill. If you can wind it all up with Thicket of Blades, Knockback, and Stormguard Warrior (King of Feats), I predict a really fun turn for a melee character. Even against an ooze, purple worm, etc.