Low Level Teir 1. Can you beat the Artificer?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

borg285

May 13, 2010 13:35:59
Just trying to get some other feedback.  A duplicate thread is on brilliantgameologists
As far as I can tell tier 1 classes/builds are tier 1 because of their versatility and raw power.  The wizard, cleric and druid are all tier 1 but only achieve this ultimate power later in their career.  As per low level I can't see those classes beating the artificer as he can do the same key things those classes do.
Please list rebuttals the other tier 1 classes(low level(1-7)) would have against the artificer saying, "Anything you can do I can do better than you."

Please explain what other classes are widely considered as tier 1?  I know psion is one, but what makes him tier 1 in low levels(1-7)?

Obviously he can do any spell the other tier 1 classes can pull off.  As per raw damage the artificer has bane coming out of the gate, and has metamagic spell trigger at level 6.  With scribe scroll he can pull off any spell available to others only earlier and that covers versatility.  As per preparation the wizard, cleric, and druid must all prepare but are limited by spell slots.  The artificer is only limited by money as there are mundane ways of getting around getting at any scroll you have.

Here are the reasons he isn't just a copycat(and he maintains them from that level on):
1: trapfinding, masterwork crafter for the team, 2nd level scrolls(alter self for example), cast in medium armor+shield
2: versatility of all first level spells on demand through infusion
3: uber healer(healing armor) + craft wonderous item(healing belt), skill monkey(item familiar(honestly the best investment in 1 feat)), + 3rd level scrolls(animate dead)
4: can now afford an army + mass snake's swiftness for uber damage real cheap
5: makes magic weapons for team, 4th level scrolls and all 4th level spells entails
6: metamagic + persist/empowered

These things I feel are what make artificer the top in tier 1 in low level.  Covers so many bases(skill, trap, heal, blast, utility, BC with any spell) all so early.  What makes wizard, psion, cleric, driud... unique in low level tier 1.

So far we have
Druid (1: Free fighter animal companion)
Cleric(Free knowledge devotion through cloistering, Through ACF can have healing and an undead minion, Deviotions in general)
Wizard (1: Largest selection of spells, Abrupt jaunt(swift movement is invaluable))
Psion(1: Minor creation for poisons, but can be dubplicated with psionic tattoo but not the +3 artisan psicrystal)
Erudite( true versatility by knowing every arcane spell, but delayed by a spell level)

Some of the drawbacks of the artificer:
Eberron class
All infusions can't be cast in combat and are thus pre-combat buffs making your more susceptable to being weak in ambushes than other classes.  One option is to have a small army(fleshrakers, undead, constructs...)
Heavy reliance on gold, but can turn crafting into a profitable job with your team(they get a 40% discount to market price, you get the surplus), but the XP costs encourage you to ride the river of XP.
#2

j2.504

May 13, 2010 18:33:25

I'll throw a couple votes in for 1st level Cleric and 1st level Wiz if optimized a bit.


Wiz for the Abrupt Jaunt variant - the most powerful low level survival ability I can think of.  Also, familiar, (while not powerful from a combat perspective generally) is intelligent and does add extra actions, etc. to a solo Wizard.  Aka, got captured... familiar gets you out, etc.  Need an extra set of eyes while sleeping... familiar.  Want to spy on an enemy encampment:  that owl Familar doesn't look out of place.


#########

I'd likley put Cleric at the top of tier 1 at early levels (maybe).  Cleric, particularly a neutral negative energy Cleric (to walk around with a bonus undead ally similar to a druid and his animal companion)... extra ally = extra actions, and "double" the survivability etc.:

With spontaneous domain ACF, you can still have spontaneous healing (for your party/self), while being a negative energy Cleric.  I believe there's a combo that also allows you to still cast spontaneous harm spells to heal your controlled undead ally/allies.  (Or a feat that makes you heal with negative energy).

For the turning/rebuking, turning empowered devotion feats, devotion feats in general (travel, earth isn't bad, etc.), spontaneous positive/negative energy, decent hp, good armor, spontaneous domains with an ACF, and Domain granted powers.

At first level, Cleric (especially Cloistered) can grab a couple substantial granted powers depending on his role, but particualrly in a survival guy type of role:  Repose Domain or something along those lines auto heals you between 0 and -9 hp.  Not hugely useful at high levels when you have contingency spells available, but great for low level survivability.  Celerity or Travel = faster movement (key at low levels for battlefield control, escaping), etc.  Travel devotion = extra action, etc.  Those are particularly useful at low level, and by a solo character (ie: no party).

#3

j2.504

May 13, 2010 18:49:38
Is Archivist on the list?  I wouldn't consider it as powerful as a Druid or Cleric at 1st level, but possibly on par with a Wiz.  Main drawback against Wiz is no familiar.  Main advantage is the most spells available of any class, nearly all Arcane, and all Divine.  So he gets offensive/utility Arcane spells, but divine healing, etc.

I probably wouldn't consider Wiz on the list at very low level, but for the Abrupt jaunt and familiar.

#4

borg285

May 14, 2010 9:40:54
Correct me if I'm wrong but can't an artificer make a Tome of Battle item that gives him a maneuver, namely the tiger claw that lets you jump as a swift action(Proabably doesn't hold a candle to the ability to evade an attack).  He will have this every encounter.  Not as nice as a teleport.  In 3.5 do you need line of sight for teleport?
#5

j2.504

May 14, 2010 15:27:59
Correct me if I'm wrong but can't an artificer make a Tome of Battle item that gives him a maneuver, namely the tiger claw that lets you jump as a swift action(Proabably doesn't hold a candle to the ability to evade an attack).  He will have this every encounter.  Not as nice as a teleport.  In 3.5 do you need line of sight for teleport?



If you're referring to this in response to the Wizard's Abrupt Jaunt, then it's not nearly in the same boat (assuming the ToB item is swift, meaning it only happens on your turn).

The Abrupt Jaunt ACF is an immediate action, and is most often used as a defensive tactic or battlefield "maneuver" on the opponents turn.

Enemy casts spell/fires bow/swings axe at Wiz.  Wiz Abrupt jaunts out of range in the middle of the enemy's strike/turn.  Enemy has now used his standard action (spell/attack) up, and Wiz took no damage (or suffered the ill effects of a spell), putting the Wiz in excellent position to destroy the enemy.

It's also a crucial life saving tool for situations where Wiz loses iniative, or if a trap goes off.  It's obviously a great utility spell as well.

The closest thing I can think of to Abrupt Jaunt off the top of my head would be a carefully worded contingency spell.

The drawback is it is useable very limited times per day (I don't remember how many/day without looking it up).

Overall, I'd have trouble putting a low level wizard as a tier 1 without it.  Wizard does have encounter ending spells and other big difference makers at level one.  But, if he loses iniative one time and gets hit, it's pretty likely he's done for if in a solo situation likely without the ability to heal himself back into fighting shape.  Another adavantage of Cleric or Druid.
#6

jameswilliamogle

May 14, 2010 17:16:37
The prebuffing hardly ever can be done effectively.  I've seen it maybe one session per 6 levels where you "get the drop on them".  Of course, in theory, it should happen much more often...  But you know DMs...

#7

carnivore

May 14, 2010 17:29:47
Abrupt Jaunt has drawbacks when faced with Ranged Attacks early in the Day ..... if it is used up there is nothing for the remainder of the encounters for that day

a well built Thrower can eliminate that advantage in one round .... then his buddies can beat on him

Laughing
#8

j2.504

May 14, 2010 18:39:25

Another disadvantage to abrupt jaunt is that you can only use one immediate action per round (I believe), so if you're facing multiple opponents, and choose to remain in combat (or can't jaunt far enough away from it), the other opponents will still get swings on you for the remainder of their turn.

Another disadvantage is it's range limit of 10'.

Another big disadvantage is it can't be used against attacks you're unaware of.


How's everyone's feeling with Wiz being a Tier 1 at low levels?  (As compared to Cleric, Druid, Artificer, etc.).  I'd be inclined to say Wiz is not tier 1 at low levels unless you took abrupt jaunt, simply because they are so vulnerable at early levels - particularly solo.  Of course, if you take abrupt jaunt, you have to be a specialist, and lose your familiar (I believe). 


Offense and utility and battlefield control, they're great, but does their vulnerability drop them from tier 1.

Another thing to consider, is they have limited spells (in their books) compared to a divine caster who gets access to the whole list.  So, while you might want a slew of different spells for different occasions, you probably won't have many of them available at low levels, limiting your usefulness in different situations, particularly as the day winds on.

I'm still rooting for Cleric in the top spot.

#9

lormador

May 14, 2010 20:13:23

What the OP called low-level and specified as 1-7 is not actually a single category of levels, but is best considered in distinct categories.
Level 1-2
Level 3
Level 4
Level 5-6

Each of these categories has different kinds of characters that dominate them. At first level, Abrupt Jaunt wizards are just OK. They are glass cannons (apart from this one defensive trick) packing Color Spray, d4 hit points, no real armor, 2 skill points, etc. Abrupt Jaunt will keep a wizard alive for awhile, which keeps this kind of wizard above the other specialties and above the bard/knight/etc.

Compare Duskblade & Beguiler. The one has real weapons and armor, the other 6+skill points and a great list. Both of them are superior to Wizard at 1st and 2nd level.

Warblade and Crusader also rock the level 1-2 category. Psychic Rogue is fantastic here as well. Level 1 abilities are unevenly granted across several classes- choices that will prove weak later (like Duskblade and Psychic Rogue, which is horrible) shine. Beguiler is playable all the way up, but obviously not Tier 1 material. Psion makes it in only because of the Black Lotus thing, which not all DMs allow (some rule a character needs some experience with the poison, killing the idea via expense).


I doubt Archivists really rock the first two levels in the way Duskblades and Beguilers do. I've played one, and at that point Dark Knowledge would only sometimes kind of work a little, there were few spells I had ready to cast, and I had nothing to say against undead.