Low-Magic/High feats: optimizing my style of play - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Low-Magic/High feats: optimizing my style of play

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
frogmantis
Jan 20, 2009 12:58:48 Discussion time, folks. Discussion of the self-indulgent variety. Feel free to ignore or flame me (gotta love anonymity and the internet).

I'm looking for a bit of optimization on a campaign i'm working on. Its heavy on the undead, with a touch of planar-traveling planned for the higher levels. There will be giants, undead, hags, and many aberrations, amongst other various random encounters. They are starting 6th level, and i plan on getting at least into the high teens, if not to the golden 20.

That aside, my discussion is really about the flavor of my campaign, and how others DM, and optimize NPC and challenges.

Almost without a doubt all of my campaigns are relatively low-magic, and high-feat. I use just about any book (except BoED and BoVD), and I do a feat a level (oh yeah). You might call that crazy, but I call it fun. I think of it like the E6 mindset (or how I perceive it), that feats allow for customization and specialization of power.
But it is low magic. Its rare for any of my players' characters to get stats above the 20s (without direct spell application), and finding that +2 keen frost rapier is the quest of a lifetime, and you keep it throughout your career (and it was made by the cloud giant king Rufus! WOOooOOO! heh).
I also don't allow many templates. The most "out there" i've done is half-vampire and half-fey.

I've been DMing small groups of players for about 6 years now (3.0 and 3.5, though i have used other systems). The most players i've ever had at a time was 4. I've played many campaigns with just one player, which is a different game altogether.

SO a feat a level, with relatively low magic. does anyone else DM a game like this, and if so how do they optimize NPCs, monsters, and help boost players (gotta give them something)? How about the opposite? I know i'm a minority to like and use the feat-a-level thing... I must be.
#2
phaedrusxy
Jan 20, 2009 13:18:59 Spellcasters will almost invariably be insanely overpowered in a game like that, compared to non-casters (even more than normal). Its the non-spellcasters who need magic items.

Optimized monsters would debuff the spellcasters, who will invariably be buffed to the teeth to make up for having no magic items. :D

Also, how do you deal with crafting feats? Can casters make magic items?
#3
hsien
Jan 20, 2009 13:21:16 Been in several low-magic games, but monsters were never adjusted.
Never in a high-feat game though.

Suggestion,
Check out the encounter recommendations for Gestalt (Unearthed Arcana)
Recommend considering the parties effective level to be + 1 to determine what CR encounters they should face.
This tends to speed up advancement though.
To keep advancement "normal" simply reduce monsters CR by 1, as far as experience is considered.

Altough the Feat/level is not as good as Gestalt, imo, that could still be a fairly easy way to adjust for it's benefits.
#4
frogmantis
Jan 20, 2009 13:36:04
Spellcasters will almost invariably be insanely overpowered in a game like that, compared to non-casters (even more than normal). Its the non-spellcasters who need magic items.

Optimized monsters would debuff the spellcasters, who will invariably be buffed to the teeth to make up for having no magic items. :D

Also, how do you deal with crafting feats? Can casters make magic items?

Casters can create items, which does up their power level. Which is kinda the enigma, the fly in the ointment; i've never had a player fully exploit it, but they could potentially nullify the low-magic component, albeit at a cut to their XP. Its one of the problems of the way I run, which is one of the reasons I was asking for feedback. I've got an archivist as one of the PCs, and i've a feeling the party won't be short of wonderous items or rods.

But the caster power level can stay in check I've noticed, by giving them fewer resources. As in, your wizard or archivist won't be finding scroll after scroll of high-level spells. once again, flies-in-ointment: they can still pick spells at level up, and some casters have access to their full list.
#5
frogmantis
Jan 20, 2009 13:38:41
Suggestion,
Check out the encounter recommendations for Gestalt (Unearthed Arcana)
Recommend considering the parties effective level to be + 1 to determine what CR encounters they should face.
This tends to speed up advancement though.
To keep advancement "normal" simply reduce monsters CR by 1, as far as experience is considered.

Altough the Feat/level is not as good as Gestalt, imo, that could still be a fairly easy way to adjust for it's benefits.

It might be best to do the tougher monsters with lower CRs, to keep the pace as normal. They can handle themselves, with a feat-a-level.

Another irony i've found, is that it makes prestige classes a lot easier to qualify for. I've thought about increasing the requirements, but that would seem an arbitrary punishment, to some.
#6
hsien
Jan 20, 2009 13:46:14 One way to keep items/meta-magic feats restrained that is to force the extra feats to be from the "General" category.
(i.e "General" category feats only for the extra feats at 2, 4, 5th etc... )

That would remove item creation and meta-magic from the extra feats provided and keep casters in check to a certain degree.
#7
hsien
Jan 20, 2009 13:49:22
Another irony i've found, is that it makes prestige classes a lot easier to qualify for. I've thought about increasing the requirements, but that would seem an arbitrary punishment, to some.

Many PrC's have either a minimum Skill rank, BAB or cast "x" level spell requirement that feats will not affect. I wouldn't recommend altering them.
#8
phaedrusxy
Jan 20, 2009 15:18:50
One way to keep items/meta-magic feats restrained that is to force the extra feats to be from the "General" category.
(i.e "General" category feats only for the extra feats at 2, 4, 5th etc... )

That would remove item creation and meta-magic from the extra feats provided and keep casters in check to a certain degree.

It wouldn't do much. I'd just take Item Creation feats with all my "normal" feats. You only need 2 or 3 crafting feats, really.

And as for the XP loss, it won't matter. If they fall behind a level from crafting, they'll catch up due to gaining more XP per encounter (if you follow the rules on that, that is).

And besides... alot of casters don't really need many magic items. Especially clerics. Just having Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment means they're leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else's weapons and armor enhancements, for example.

I've played in games like this, and usually the non-casters wind up being frustrated and complaining about the casters being overpowered. Even if the people playing the casters don't really know what they're doing, they'll still likely be more powerful. If they do, it will be like a 5 to 1 power ratio (or worse), unless they "play nice" and craft stuff for other people/buff them/etc.

Of course, there is something to be said about the "flavor" of games like this. I'd suggest using some variants like class-based AC increases dependant on level, such as those in d20 Modern, if you really like this type of game. Don't let them stack with spells that do the same thing, and you can give your non-casters the boosts they need without further overpowering the casters.

I think there are some rules for this kind of stuff in Unearthed Arcana, and Frank and K's "Tome" series also had some stuff like this, I think.

And of course, Tome of Battle gives "non-casters" access to some "magical" things without items.
#9
true_shinken
Jan 20, 2009 20:00:26 Low-magic is not really defined by magic items but by spells (which end up limiting items). In my game, there are only spells up to the 6th level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 frogmantis Jan 20, 2009 12:58:48	Discussion time, folks. Discussion of the self-indulgent variety. Feel free to ignore or flame me (gotta love anonymity and the internet). I'm looking for a bit of optimization on a campaign i'm working on. Its heavy on the undead, with a touch of planar-traveling planned for the higher levels. There will be giants, undead, hags, and many aberrations, amongst other various random encounters. They are starting 6th level, and i plan on getting at least into the high teens, if not to the golden 20. That aside, my discussion is really about the flavor of my campaign, and how others DM, and optimize NPC and challenges. Almost without a doubt all of my campaigns are relatively low-magic, and high-feat. I use just about any book (except BoED and BoVD), and I do a feat a level (oh yeah). You might call that crazy, but I call it fun. I think of it like the E6 mindset (or how I perceive it), that feats allow for customization and specialization of power. But it is low magic. Its rare for any of my players' characters to get stats above the 20s (without direct spell application), and finding that +2 keen frost rapier is the quest of a lifetime, and you keep it throughout your career (and it was made by the cloud giant king Rufus! WOOooOOO! heh). I also don't allow many templates. The most "out there" i've done is half-vampire and half-fey. I've been DMing small groups of players for about 6 years now (3.0 and 3.5, though i have used other systems). The most players i've ever had at a time was 4. I've played many campaigns with just one player, which is a different game altogether. SO a feat a level, with relatively low magic. does anyone else DM a game like this, and if so how do they optimize NPCs, monsters, and help boost players (gotta give them something)? How about the opposite? I know i'm a minority to like and use the feat-a-level thing... I must be.
#2 phaedrusxy Jan 20, 2009 13:18:59	Spellcasters will almost invariably be insanely overpowered in a game like that, compared to non-casters (even more than normal). Its the non-spellcasters who need magic items. Optimized monsters would debuff the spellcasters, who will invariably be buffed to the teeth to make up for having no magic items. :D Also, how do you deal with crafting feats? Can casters make magic items?
#3 hsien Jan 20, 2009 13:21:16	Been in several low-magic games, but monsters were never adjusted. Never in a high-feat game though. Suggestion, Check out the encounter recommendations for Gestalt (Unearthed Arcana) Recommend considering the parties effective level to be + 1 to determine what CR encounters they should face. This tends to speed up advancement though. To keep advancement "normal" simply reduce monsters CR by 1, as far as experience is considered. Altough the Feat/level is not as good as Gestalt, imo, that could still be a fairly easy way to adjust for it's benefits.
#4 frogmantis Jan 20, 2009 13:36:04	Spellcasters will almost invariably be insanely overpowered in a game like that, compared to non-casters (even more than normal). Its the non-spellcasters who need magic items. Optimized monsters would debuff the spellcasters, who will invariably be buffed to the teeth to make up for having no magic items. :D Also, how do you deal with crafting feats? Can casters make magic items? Casters can create items, which does up their power level. Which is kinda the enigma, the fly in the ointment; i've never had a player fully exploit it, but they could potentially nullify the low-magic component, albeit at a cut to their XP. Its one of the problems of the way I run, which is one of the reasons I was asking for feedback. I've got an archivist as one of the PCs, and i've a feeling the party won't be short of wonderous items or rods. But the caster power level can stay in check I've noticed, by giving them fewer resources. As in, your wizard or archivist won't be finding scroll after scroll of high-level spells. once again, flies-in-ointment: they can still pick spells at level up, and some casters have access to their full list.
#5 frogmantis Jan 20, 2009 13:38:41	Suggestion, Check out the encounter recommendations for Gestalt (Unearthed Arcana) Recommend considering the parties effective level to be + 1 to determine what CR encounters they should face. This tends to speed up advancement though. To keep advancement "normal" simply reduce monsters CR by 1, as far as experience is considered. Altough the Feat/level is not as good as Gestalt, imo, that could still be a fairly easy way to adjust for it's benefits. It might be best to do the tougher monsters with lower CRs, to keep the pace as normal. They can handle themselves, with a feat-a-level. Another irony i've found, is that it makes prestige classes a lot easier to qualify for. I've thought about increasing the requirements, but that would seem an arbitrary punishment, to some.
#6 hsien Jan 20, 2009 13:46:14	One way to keep items/meta-magic feats restrained that is to force the extra feats to be from the "General" category. (i.e "General" category feats only for the extra feats at 2, 4, 5th etc... ) That would remove item creation and meta-magic from the extra feats provided and keep casters in check to a certain degree.
#7 hsien Jan 20, 2009 13:49:22	Another irony i've found, is that it makes prestige classes a lot easier to qualify for. I've thought about increasing the requirements, but that would seem an arbitrary punishment, to some. Many PrC's have either a minimum Skill rank, BAB or cast "x" level spell requirement that feats will not affect. I wouldn't recommend altering them.
#8 phaedrusxy Jan 20, 2009 15:18:50	One way to keep items/meta-magic feats restrained that is to force the extra feats to be from the "General" category. (i.e "General" category feats only for the extra feats at 2, 4, 5th etc... ) That would remove item creation and meta-magic from the extra feats provided and keep casters in check to a certain degree. It wouldn't do much. I'd just take Item Creation feats with all my "normal" feats. You only need 2 or 3 crafting feats, really. And as for the XP loss, it won't matter. If they fall behind a level from crafting, they'll catch up due to gaining more XP per encounter (if you follow the rules on that, that is). And besides... alot of casters don't really need many magic items. Especially clerics. Just having Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment means they're leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else's weapons and armor enhancements, for example. I've played in games like this, and usually the non-casters wind up being frustrated and complaining about the casters being overpowered. Even if the people playing the casters don't really know what they're doing, they'll still likely be more powerful. If they do, it will be like a 5 to 1 power ratio (or worse), unless they "play nice" and craft stuff for other people/buff them/etc. Of course, there is something to be said about the "flavor" of games like this. I'd suggest using some variants like class-based AC increases dependant on level, such as those in d20 Modern, if you really like this type of game. Don't let them stack with spells that do the same thing, and you can give your non-casters the boosts they need without further overpowering the casters. I think there are some rules for this kind of stuff in Unearthed Arcana, and Frank and K's "Tome" series also had some stuff like this, I think. And of course, Tome of Battle gives "non-casters" access to some "magical" things without items.
#9 true_shinken Jan 20, 2009 20:00:26	Low-magic is not really defined by magic items but by spells (which end up limiting items). In my game, there are only spells up to the 6th level.