Lv 20 lich going into epic, and demilichdom? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Lv 20 lich going into epic, and demilichdom?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
karmatic_sliver_dup
Nov 20, 2008 22:46:17 My DM got it into his head that our playgroup should try out an epic campaign.
(i can already hear the murmuring "uh-oh's"...)

The first session went pretty well, everybody started off as a level 20 character, with the exception of me since i take an un-GODLY about of time with character creation.

anywho, i finally decided to play as a lich. (Go team Evil!!) Due to an arbitrary rule by the DM, the only way I can get the lich template is through a class feature, thus either the Walker in the Waste prestige class (Sandstorm), or the Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror).

If i were to try the WitW, i think id go something like...
Cloistered Cleric 3(UA variant)
Walker in the Waste 10 (Sandstorm)
Contemplative 5 (Comp.Divine, i think)
with the last five as a toss up between epic paladin, more cleric, or anything that seems kind of attractive.

this gives me a load of stuff based off a build in the archives called Mr.IcyHot, but i would try to lessen the amount of cheese i put into the character, since i wouldnt want my DM to get mad.

for Dread Necro...
DN20. 'nuff said.

A whole lot of undead, flavor, ect out of this class, and its pretty safe to play with my group. (as long as i dont let my undead hog all the rounds)

I have never played a campaign above level 12, and i am pretty paranoid about dying. Again. ;) So... i pose you a question. What do you think is better?
#2
krusher
Nov 20, 2008 23:13:47 If you have access to the Dragon Compendium, I highly reccommend the Death Master, level 20 adds the Lich template ON TOP off any other template you have, even an undead one.
#3
karmatic_sliver_dup
Nov 21, 2008 0:42:10 i dont think i have that book...

did some searches, only thing i found about the death master is a couple of prestige classes from the Dragon magazines... but they are kind of strange to me. (such as knowledge:necrology)
#4
stpetegamer
Nov 21, 2008 0:43:30 I am currently playing a character based on the Mr. Icy/Hot and I think it is a fun build... you loose 2 CL which is a CO no no but you get a free template out of it with some neat abilities... I would recommend that over the DN as the only upside to the DN is the huge number of HD he can control, which if you are worried about overwhelming your teammates this could be a problem although the thought of a zombie dragon mount are sweet.
I find the WiW build is fun and I would suggest that besides once you get a CL of 20 and get epic level casting all rules are out the window from m understanding.
#5
karmatic_sliver_dup
Nov 21, 2008 1:04:03 either way i go, i have to be VERY careful to not step on anybodies toes, either with too many undead, or with too much cleric cheese.

i would probably end up having a few favorite undead on retainer, and a efw more that ill take with me where ever i go.

if i try the WitW, im not so sure how long DMM cheese will last, and i had completely forgotten about those two lost caster levels. Granted, i still cast 9th level and (soon) epic spells... yet it feels a bit inferior now that i realize it.

oh well, any other ideas, opinions, ect?
#6
daimon
Nov 21, 2008 3:21:08 I'm currently playing a Dread Necromancer, we started at 1st and when I reach 3rd I will go Necropolitan... this class it's quite fun to play, if it breaths you kill or scare, if not you control... (Ok, this not work with constructs... but few things work with them).
At level 2 you got DR 2/bludgeoning and magic, and if you're undead or take the tomb tainted soul feat you can heal yourself... so early in the game you can fight in melee and later as your power grows, take a different aproach.
#7
pithica
Nov 21, 2008 7:48:20 Have you considered Necropolitan? It's significantly easier than lich on any build, seeing as how it's just -4000xp, and it get's you the stuff you really want from lichdom anyway (well, it's the stuff I really want, the Undead traits and the higher hit-dice). That plus spell-stitching (500xp*Wis) is pretty disturbing in it's own right, and you'll only be a few thousand XP behind the rest of the party. If you want to be a whole level behind for XP river goodness, you can also add 'Evolved Undead' for a +1 LA (that you could buy back for another 2000xp).

The three together is 16,000xp behind with no LA.

You'll come out a 19th level cleric or wizard (or whatever), and some change, but with more abilities than a lich would have (or damn close-You'll have all the undead traits, extra Nat armor, stat bonuses, huge DR, SR, a bunch of spell-likes, and fast healing, oh, and turn resistence), and you don't have to finagle around with prestige classes you may not like otherwise. (Or, at least, you get to pick some better ones).

Cloistered Cleric, mixed with Contemplative and maybe a couple other PrC's on a Evolved, Spell-stiched Necropolitan would be pretty beefy.
#8
ChristopherGroves
Nov 21, 2008 8:39:36 What you wont have is unholy toughness (which Dry Liches get)
#9
pithica
Nov 21, 2008 8:51:59 You also won't get water weakness, which means you don't have to worry about any commoner with a bucket killing you.
#10
karmatic_sliver_dup
Nov 21, 2008 11:16:42 Daimon: Ive played my share of DN's, which is why its an option for level 20. they are UNBELIEVABLY fun, and once you hit 8th level, they become a house.

Pithica: hydration suit is the answer to every dry liches problem. :D
as for the necropolitan... i honestly hadnt thought about stacking templates on it, but im not sure if my DM would allow it. As a necropolitan, would i be able to become a demi-lich?

i really cant think of any other goal my character would have past epic, besides becoming nigh unkillable, or ruling a plane.

EDIT: DM doesnt allow templates unless they are a class feature or are gained in game. BlaRg...
#11
phaedrusxy
Nov 21, 2008 11:40:06 I definitely think a cleric/WitW would be far superior in Epic to a Dread Necro. You can also figure out an epic progression for WitW using the guidelines in the ELH and SRD, and see if the DM will work in the demilich template into it, or some variant of it.
#12
karmatic_sliver_dup
Nov 21, 2008 23:27:32 To be honest, im a bit worried about the WitW. knowing me, im going to want to abuse DDM cheese, and i dont completely understand how the Heat system works. (WitW has an aura that increases temp by 2 levels)

another thing is that i cant find the mummify ability of the class, which is actually a selling point for me. (free mummies? ill take AS MANY AS POSSIBLE!)

Never had experience with any epic level character though, so i may be wrong about what i am thinking. If the stories about "rules are out the window in epic" are true, i guess it would be okay to abuse DMM.

Any ideas on what i should do with the other levels? Obviously something that keeps the full casting progression (WitW is an exception, and i get a lot of benefits out of it). Maybe some domains you would suggest? Im planning on playing this as a melee necro-cleric if my DM doesnt allow me to reflavor the Larthenian Protector (arms and equipment guide, pg. 112) so that an evil character can use it. Unless, of course, that you can persuade me otherwise.
#13
phaedrusxy
Nov 21, 2008 23:44:05 Epic is basically another game. I'd go for DMM if your DM allows it, applied to either Persistent or Quicken. They're a drop in the bucket compared to some of the things you can do with custom-made Epic spells. Of course, those require DM approval.

I haven't designed a high level caster in a while, but here is a link to an overpowered lvl 14 Ur-Priest of mine that might give you ideas about buffs to use. He could cast 9th level spells, and had DMM: Persistent, so he's probably on par with some level 20ish characters. Also, check out the "Mr Icy Hot" and "Revised Necromancer's Handbook" threads, which you can find via the Handy Links at the top of the forum, if you haven't.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 karmatic_sliver_dup Nov 20, 2008 22:46:17	My DM got it into his head that our playgroup should try out an epic campaign. (i can already hear the murmuring "uh-oh's"...) The first session went pretty well, everybody started off as a level 20 character, with the exception of me since i take an un-GODLY about of time with character creation. anywho, i finally decided to play as a lich. (Go team Evil!!) Due to an arbitrary rule by the DM, the only way I can get the lich template is through a class feature, thus either the Walker in the Waste prestige class (Sandstorm), or the Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror). If i were to try the WitW, i think id go something like... Cloistered Cleric 3(UA variant) Walker in the Waste 10 (Sandstorm) Contemplative 5 (Comp.Divine, i think) with the last five as a toss up between epic paladin, more cleric, or anything that seems kind of attractive. this gives me a load of stuff based off a build in the archives called Mr.IcyHot, but i would try to lessen the amount of cheese i put into the character, since i wouldnt want my DM to get mad. for Dread Necro... DN20. 'nuff said. A whole lot of undead, flavor, ect out of this class, and its pretty safe to play with my group. (as long as i dont let my undead hog all the rounds) I have never played a campaign above level 12, and i am pretty paranoid about dying. Again. ;) So... i pose you a question. What do you think is better?
#2 krusher Nov 20, 2008 23:13:47	If you have access to the Dragon Compendium, I highly reccommend the Death Master, level 20 adds the Lich template ON TOP off any other template you have, even an undead one.
#3 karmatic_sliver_dup Nov 21, 2008 0:42:10	i dont think i have that book... did some searches, only thing i found about the death master is a couple of prestige classes from the Dragon magazines... but they are kind of strange to me. (such as knowledge:necrology)
#4 stpetegamer Nov 21, 2008 0:43:30	I am currently playing a character based on the Mr. Icy/Hot and I think it is a fun build... you loose 2 CL which is a CO no no but you get a free template out of it with some neat abilities... I would recommend that over the DN as the only upside to the DN is the huge number of HD he can control, which if you are worried about overwhelming your teammates this could be a problem although the thought of a zombie dragon mount are sweet. I find the WiW build is fun and I would suggest that besides once you get a CL of 20 and get epic level casting all rules are out the window from m understanding.
#5 karmatic_sliver_dup Nov 21, 2008 1:04:03	either way i go, i have to be VERY careful to not step on anybodies toes, either with too many undead, or with too much cleric cheese. i would probably end up having a few favorite undead on retainer, and a efw more that ill take with me where ever i go. if i try the WitW, im not so sure how long DMM cheese will last, and i had completely forgotten about those two lost caster levels. Granted, i still cast 9th level and (soon) epic spells... yet it feels a bit inferior now that i realize it. oh well, any other ideas, opinions, ect?
#6 daimon Nov 21, 2008 3:21:08	I'm currently playing a Dread Necromancer, we started at 1st and when I reach 3rd I will go Necropolitan... this class it's quite fun to play, if it breaths you kill or scare, if not you control... (Ok, this not work with constructs... but few things work with them). At level 2 you got DR 2/bludgeoning and magic, and if you're undead or take the tomb tainted soul feat you can heal yourself... so early in the game you can fight in melee and later as your power grows, take a different aproach.
#7 pithica Nov 21, 2008 7:48:20	Have you considered Necropolitan? It's significantly easier than lich on any build, seeing as how it's just -4000xp, and it get's you the stuff you really want from lichdom anyway (well, it's the stuff I really want, the Undead traits and the higher hit-dice). That plus spell-stitching (500xp*Wis) is pretty disturbing in it's own right, and you'll only be a few thousand XP behind the rest of the party. If you want to be a whole level behind for XP river goodness, you can also add 'Evolved Undead' for a +1 LA (that you could buy back for another 2000xp). The three together is 16,000xp behind with no LA. You'll come out a 19th level cleric or wizard (or whatever), and some change, but with more abilities than a lich would have (or damn close-You'll have all the undead traits, extra Nat armor, stat bonuses, huge DR, SR, a bunch of spell-likes, and fast healing, oh, and turn resistence), and you don't have to finagle around with prestige classes you may not like otherwise. (Or, at least, you get to pick some better ones). Cloistered Cleric, mixed with Contemplative and maybe a couple other PrC's on a Evolved, Spell-stiched Necropolitan would be pretty beefy.
#8 ChristopherGroves Nov 21, 2008 8:39:36	What you wont have is unholy toughness (which Dry Liches get)
#9 pithica Nov 21, 2008 8:51:59	You also won't get water weakness, which means you don't have to worry about any commoner with a bucket killing you.
#10 karmatic_sliver_dup Nov 21, 2008 11:16:42	Daimon: Ive played my share of DN's, which is why its an option for level 20. they are UNBELIEVABLY fun, and once you hit 8th level, they become a house. Pithica: hydration suit is the answer to every dry liches problem. :D as for the necropolitan... i honestly hadnt thought about stacking templates on it, but im not sure if my DM would allow it. As a necropolitan, would i be able to become a demi-lich? i really cant think of any other goal my character would have past epic, besides becoming nigh unkillable, or ruling a plane. EDIT: DM doesnt allow templates unless they are a class feature or are gained in game. BlaRg...
#11 phaedrusxy Nov 21, 2008 11:40:06	I definitely think a cleric/WitW would be far superior in Epic to a Dread Necro. You can also figure out an epic progression for WitW using the guidelines in the ELH and SRD, and see if the DM will work in the demilich template into it, or some variant of it.
#12 karmatic_sliver_dup Nov 21, 2008 23:27:32	To be honest, im a bit worried about the WitW. knowing me, im going to want to abuse DDM cheese, and i dont completely understand how the Heat system works. (WitW has an aura that increases temp by 2 levels) another thing is that i cant find the mummify ability of the class, which is actually a selling point for me. (free mummies? ill take AS MANY AS POSSIBLE!) Never had experience with any epic level character though, so i may be wrong about what i am thinking. If the stories about "rules are out the window in epic" are true, i guess it would be okay to abuse DMM. Any ideas on what i should do with the other levels? Obviously something that keeps the full casting progression (WitW is an exception, and i get a lot of benefits out of it). Maybe some domains you would suggest? Im planning on playing this as a melee necro-cleric if my DM doesnt allow me to reflavor the Larthenian Protector (arms and equipment guide, pg. 112) so that an evil character can use it. Unless, of course, that you can persuade me otherwise.
#13 phaedrusxy Nov 21, 2008 23:44:05	Epic is basically another game. I'd go for DMM if your DM allows it, applied to either Persistent or Quicken. They're a drop in the bucket compared to some of the things you can do with custom-made Epic spells. Of course, those require DM approval. I haven't designed a high level caster in a while, but here is a link to an overpowered lvl 14 Ur-Priest of mine that might give you ideas about buffs to use. He could cast 9th level spells, and had DMM: Persistent, so he's probably on par with some level 20ish characters. Also, check out the "Mr Icy Hot" and "Revised Necromancer's Handbook" threads, which you can find via the Handy Links at the top of the forum, if you haven't.