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| #1CryovFeb 08, 2011 15:11:52 | I am rolling with a new group and haven't played D&D in years so I am in need of help making a LvL 10 Arena char. Rules being: No Magic (including items), Spell like/Super Natural abilites, No grappling more than 2 rounds, up to +3 LvL adjustment with race/templates (spell like/super natural wont work). 49,000 Gold on items Any help would be greatly appreciated Also as a note we play 3.5 ***************UPDATE******************** Thanks for the help I decided on Human Lolth touched Fighter 8/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 General/Fighter Feats: Power Attack Improved Bull Rush Battle Jump Instantaneous Rage Leap Attack Shock Trooper Dodge Mobility Mighty Leap Leap of the Heavens Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian: Rage 1/Day Pounce I decided to get Mighty Leaping to help with the insane DC for jump that is needed to make this class work and reduced fall dmg, dodge and mobility were pre-req for it. Also decided to roll with the greatsword as a weapon of choice. At the moment I am trying to come up with some non-magical armor/weapons to be used. So far I just have Adamantite Greatsword, Darkleaf Elven Chainmail, Locked Gauntlet, and Dastana Bracers for a bit more extra AC. Trying to keep my armor check penalty at a 0 and my armor in light category as to not hinder DC 35-40 jump checks. I do have some technical questions regarding this build. First being, Is the double damage from battle jump calculated after all the other damage mods? Second goes in hand with the first question, Does the Triple dmg bonus from my power attack mod get doubled as well? (leap attack giving the triple dmg bonus from PA) Third, Does the Skill Trick: Extreme Leap from Complete Scoundral have any use for this build? And finally, is there any way to improve upon the weapon that is non-magical? I am fairly light in AC and realize this is a kill them quick character so damage output is a must. I am open to the idea of other weapons, just bare in mind to keep them martial as I have no feats to spare. ***Also as a note, thanks to all who helped me out here, I am really fond of this character now as it is the closet thing I have had to a Dragoon. Also looked at his dmg output...potential 240ish dmg in the first turn without a crit >.> |
| #2sleepyshadowFeb 08, 2011 16:01:29 | I'd suggest this build instead: Race: Human Class: Fighter 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 3/Ravager 5 Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Battle Jump, Improved Sunder, Instantaneous Rage, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper This build is a slight variation on the many charger builds out there, and there are so many of them for good reason. The Feats: Battle Jump inflicts x3 damage when charge attacking an opponent from at least 5' up. Leap Attack inflicts x2+100% damage when charge attacking while making a 10' jump. Shock Trooper allows you to decrease your AC rather than your attack bonus when using Power Attack during a charge attack. The Classes: Fighter for the bonus feats, Ravager for the Con damage you deal and the aura of fear. Since your opponents will be martial characters (since your DM ruled out magic), their Will Saves will likely be deplorable. Last, but most important, is the Lion Totem Barbarian for the all-powerful Pounce ability, which allows you to make a full attack during a charge attack. The Cheese: Fear aura and Rage as immediate actions + charge attacking for massive damage = win. |
| #3Maat_MonsFeb 08, 2011 16:38:44 | The cheesiest thing I can think of with these restrictions is an incorporeal creature with the ghostly grasp feat (Libris Mortis 27), so you can wield normal weapons. It can't be ghost though, since ghosts are naturally ethereal and only become incorporeal by using a supernatural ability. I highly recommend dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon 5) or raptoran (Races of the Wild 65) for the ability to fly without a level adjustment. You can play a ranged build and screw over any melee enemies that can't fly or play a melee build secure in the knowledge that flying creatures won't screw you over. You're best off using material from Tome of Battle if it's allowed. If you're not familiar with that book, you can read A Quick Primer on the Sublime Way, the entire warblade class description, and the full text of all the maneuvers free on the Wizards site. Regeneration could be a bit of an issue. I don't know if there's a way to play a creature with regeneration with those restrictions, not counting the troll-blooded feat (Dragon 319 – 61), which is ridiculous and probably won't be allowed. Assuming you have normal 10th level wealth and no magic items to spend it on, you should load up on alchemical items. Weapon capsules (Complete Adventurer 121) can provide you with +3d6 damage quite easily. It's 450 gp for the device that attaches three capsules to your weapon and 25 gp for each capsule that adds +1d6 energy damage to your weapon for one round. You can use a swift action to activate all three casules for +1d6 cold, +1d6 electricity, and +1d6 fire damage for a round, full attack, drop the weapon as a free action, draw a new weapon as a free action with quick draw, then do it all again next round. |
| #4nephrilFeb 08, 2011 17:16:00 | ive played in a campaign where we existed on a plane akin to the material but it lacked magical energies so we were very limited. i came up with this human 10th level fighter 11 feats exotic weapon proffeciency spiked chain combat expertise improved trip dodge mobility spring attack combat reflexes weapon focus spiked chain weapon specialization spiked chain weapon mastery piercing improved disarm. your gonna be fighting melee characters either charging or pounding you. with this build you can hit them nearly everytime you can take these hits to disarm them or trip them. and you can always spring attack around and when they come to close distance again trip again. if your stats are lacking you can drop strength down some and take weapon finesse instead of improved disarm. if you do drop your strength then you need to make sure you put your skill points into tubmble and escape artist. if someone manages to get close enough to you to grapple you and they succeed you should be able to escape artist your way back out. thats one action then just make your distance and prepare for those aos to trip the bastard. if your dm will allow you to use Savage species then your even better off. drop human pick up half ogre- +8 str + some amount of con i dotn remember but here is the cheese they are large and they have reach so you can now attack anyone 15 feet away and your chain is a size category bigger so +4 on disarm attempts. you lose 2 feats doing this id drop improved disarm and combat reflexes (if th is is a 1 vs 1 arena) |
| #5nephrilFeb 08, 2011 17:37:55 | another one i used after he managed to kill my chain jumper. (he surrounded me with pike users and just made it impossible to win so he could kill my guy.) again someone with reach is fun here but not necessary. i like to pick up the half ogre from savage species again for another 5 foot reach and size category larger weapon. so assuming you get a race with a la of 1 9 levels of knight cant remember if knights get bonus feats??? so lets just take leveling feats 4 pick up a long spear and a buckler feats to take weapon focus long spear weapon specilization long spear weapon mastery piercing Stand Still so play style for this character is similar to the previous post your job is to keep your opponent at range. if there are any bonus feats in knight get short halft. lets you attack people beside you with reach weapons. so knights have this fun ability to treat the squares that they threaten as dificult terrain. now no one can charge you. and they move 1/2 speed while in those squares. you have other abilities in knight (phb2) but thats the one i am focusing on. so you take your ao to hit your opponent as soon as they enter your threatened square and you stand still them. stand still is an attack that requires your opponent to make a reflex save of 10+damage dealt. since you are non magical im assuming str max is 18+8 (for race) so thats a +8 since your using a 2 handed weapon thats 12 dmg since you have 2 feats giving you 4 damage thats +16 damage and your spear is (hopefully) masterwork so theres +17 damage even a moderate roll of 5 (on a 1d10) will net you a reflex save of 32. if its another fighter it will be a hard save if its a rogue it will still be a decent save to make. if they fail this save they take no damage but they also cant move the rest of this round. so now its your turn. take a full attack action at your furthest reach ninth level knight gets 2 attacks. str of 26 figures out to +21/+16 its not a huge damage build its a defensive build. depending on the gear your allowed to have you could make it up to a ac of 21 with full plate a buckler and a dex of 12. another nice thing about difficult terrain is that it does not allow 5 foot steps to close distance or tumbling to move closer without provoking aos. so on there next turn they try to move out of the square they are in and you ao/stand still them again. you are a bastion of defense with a bubble of difficult terrain 15 feet radiating around you. and if they get close move backwards and start over. |
| #6nephrilFeb 08, 2011 18:13:37 | ok ok i know too many posts right. so for this we take ourselves a rogue type skills to focus on escape artist tumble but we are not a stealthy rogue. we like to mix it up toe to toe with the big boys. so if you are allowed to use that half ogre i love to the ends of earth we use him if not then anything will do. feats to take 5 improved grapple improved unarmed strike 3 others that you like. i like deadly precision. reroll all 1s for sneak attack dice so we close the distance and attack our opponent. initiate a grapple. once inside the grapple we are both flat footed OH NOES THIS IS BAD... for them. go go rogue just punch them in the stomach over and over for your 2 rounds then release (as per your dms rules) those punches may not seem like much but a large critter punching is a 1d4+str. wait am i forgetting something this is supposed to hurt them right oh yeah lets tack on 5d6 sneak attack damage on to that. oh wait did i say your flat footed i meant primed to be snuck attack. without magic rogues have the best class ability for dealing damage you just have to find ways to use it. it is usually hard to sneak attack someone when you are 1 on 1. but this is easy. pick up a dagger and 2 feats (quick draw, flick of the wrist) and you can get one sneak attack against your opponent as soon as your first grapple is over then use your second attack to "you guessed it" initiate another grapple. |
| #7Maat_MonsFeb 08, 2011 18:18:56 | so knights have this fun ability to treat the squares that they threaten as dificult terrain. now no one can charge you. This is a common misconception. A knight's bulwark of defense ability says “an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares you threaten as difficult terrain.” Generally speaking, an opponent who charges you won't have begun its turn in your threatened area. This means it won't treat squares you threaten as difficult terrain, so it can charge unimpeded. another nice thing about difficult terrain is that it does not allow 5 foot steps to close distance or tumbling to move closer without provoking aos. I can't find anything saying tumbling is impossible in difficult terrain. I can find a table noting increases to tumble DCs when used in certain kinds of terrain, some of which I'm pretty sure are considered difficult terrain. Of course, unless you take a -10 for accelerated tumbling or your land speed is at least 40, the half-speed movement from tumbling combined with the double movement cost for difficult terrain mean you're only moving 5 feet with each move action. |
| #8nephrilFeb 08, 2011 18:19:03 | ok last one for today. base race who cares base class scout. feats to take anything to do with better hit chance and improving scout abilities. if you have a large arena just stay away from him keep moving and hit him with ranged attacks that do skirmish damage. now you can take sneak attack feats that apply to your skirmish. one such feat allows you to sacrifice 2 sneak attack dice to half your opponents movement speed for so many rounds. also you could pick up some of the ranged feats like ranged disarm or ranged trip. there just mean and one on one you will eb very difficult to kill. sweet simple to the point you can whip, poke, grab or shoot them to death enjoy my posts and let me know if youd like some more. oh and if your dm is a doucher like mine can be he probably will consider etherealness of anykind a spell like abiliity or supernatural ability sorry. |
| #9Maat_MonsFeb 08, 2011 19:28:15 | You can take the dragonscale husk alternate class feature (Dragon Magic 12) to grow a scaly hide that provides a bonus to AC equal to 6 + 1/3 your levels in classes that grant heavy armor proficiency. You cannot also benefit from armor. The husk counts as medium armor and has max dex bonus +2 and armor check penalty -4. The only martial weapon clearly better than a greatsword is an executioner's mace (Dungeon 135 – 61). Some races:
Some templates:
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| #10nephrilFeb 09, 2011 11:19:29 | so knights have this fun ability to treat the squares that they threaten as dificult terrain. now no one can charge you. the tumbling thing is still possible just not really plausible with the reduced speed and with a our 15 foot reach theyd have to have a ridiculously high movement to cover the distance with tumbles making tumbling effectively impossible. and i am aware of the having to start in a threatened square to be considered difficult terrain, thats why we use a 15 foot reach weapon with stand still we stop them in a threatened square 15 feet away from us now that they are inside of our 15 foot difficult terrain area we have completely shut down there charging game. and its ridiculously easy to hit someone charging. thanks for the repost. if you guys in this arena game can plan pathfinder stuff this build works pretty well with the warlord out of pathfinder splat book. every square they threaten is difficult terrain even if your opponent doesnt start his turn in a threatened square. |
| #11sleepyshadowFeb 09, 2011 11:20:22 |
1st: No. When you have multiple abilities granting damage multipliers, they are lumped together all at once. Leap attack grants x3, and battle jump grants x3, so your total multiplier will be x5. 2nd: Yes, it is added on, then multiplied. The multiplication always occurs last in the equation, except in the case of bonus damage from outside sources, such as the fire damage from a flame weapon or sneak attack damage. 3rd: I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this, but it sounds like it has potential. 4th: I would recommend a halberd or some other pole-arm, as opposed to your greatsword. While the sword deals more damage, having a reach weapon is a far greater advantage. The last thing you want is to be on the receiving end of Attacks of Opportunity while your AC is 0. This is especially true since your DM is allowing beasties up to +3 LA, so Large-sized opponents may not be uncommon. |
| #12CryovFeb 09, 2011 12:35:58 | SleepyShadow, I thank you for your help towards this character concept but I believe you have mis-read how Leap Attack works. Leap attack doubles (if one handed) or triples (if two handed) the Power Attack damage modification, not all your damage. Leap attack+Battle Jump wouldn't make a 5x multiplier. Example: I take -10 from AC and +10 to damage due to Power Attack and Shock Trooper. Leap Attack with two-hander would triple the +10 to damage making it +30. |
| #13KruskFeb 09, 2011 14:23:40 | You can tumble at full speed if you take a -10 to your check. A DC 35 skill check isn't impossible by level 10. (13 ranks, +6 Stat, +2 convince DM into masterwork tumblers shoes, and maybe an item or two.) |
| #14CryovFeb 09, 2011 15:28:01 |
I got the build figured out but I don't see a reason to use tumble aside from reducing potential fall damage. I can make the DC Check easy for the jump as well, 12 jump skill, +10 from str bonus, +10 mighty leap, +5 leap of heavens, +2 from tumble synergy. So 39 Jump. |
| #15sleepyshadowFeb 09, 2011 16:25:00 | SleepyShadow, I thank you for your help towards this character concept but I believe you have mis-read how Leap Attack works. Leap attack doubles (if one handed) or triples (if two handed) the Power Attack damage modification, not all your damage. Leap attack+Battle Jump wouldn't make a 5x multiplier. Ah, my mistake. Am I also mistaken in the way Battle Jump functions (i.e. x2 damage) or am I correct in that? |
| #16CryovFeb 09, 2011 18:18:01 | Far as I can tell that is correct, it was just the Leap Attack that was off. I only noticed that because I read over the fear a few times while trying to calculate damage. |
| #17nephrilFeb 10, 2011 11:18:47 | this is all true. he will be fighting in an arena type event. im guessing you will show y=up with your toon they will show up with there toon you will battle. how many people will be doing a COMPLETE Jump or COMPLETE Tumble build. to have max ranks in tumble with a decent modifier is expected but for someone to have to build a character specifically made to close the distance to you would be very "sidebar". to every build there is another build that could beat it. what a "good" build is, is a build that can take on the majority of other builds and have a few reliable tricks to it. if i came across a jumper type theyd get there first attack in then wed back up 5 feetand attack. stand still if they tried it again. if i came up against a tumbler with that many ranks then hes not a fighter hes probably a rogue bard monk and im not to worried about any of those since i can still just disarm and move away. if they want to keep fighting they have to pick up there weapon from the floor (possible ao) then tumble 15 feet through difficult terrain to get close to me (they dont get an attack) and even if they are jumpers i can still stand still them at the first ao oppurtunity and stand still would make them stop where i hit them regardless of being airborne or not. 1v1 rogue vs knight again not that worried he may sneak attack me a few times with a very speciailized feat selection. if worried about it take the opposing skill to there bluff check to consider me flat footed and just go toe to toe. if its a monk who tumbles onto you just retreat backwards hell have to use a double move to close that distance thereby not getting to ever attack u. he fails one tumble check you nail him. if you really wanna take this build apart put him up against a ranged character. all of a sudden nothing i do really has any effect. |
| #18nephrilFeb 10, 2011 11:46:20 | for anyone interested in leap attack feats we have already gone into great detail on another thread thought id just link it for ruling and math type help. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... enjoy. |
| #19CryovFeb 11, 2011 23:43:16 | Ok, one last thing to get clarified here. I looked in the Jump skill description and in the Attack of Opportunity list and can't tell if jumping straight up to bring the sword down on the enemy provokes an Attack of Opportunity. I personally think it may as I am in a sense leaving a threatened square by jumping 10+ ft high. Can anyone clarify? |
| #20KruskFeb 12, 2011 10:07:25 | It will, because you leave a threatened square. You could feasably use tumble to avoid it but that is going to get really complicated. Better to just eat it. |
| #21sleepyshadowFeb 15, 2011 11:42:35 | If they have a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes, would they get an AoO for him jumping and another one as he came back down? |
| #22Maat_MonsFeb 15, 2011 13:17:24 | No, just one. If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus. |
| #23KruskFeb 15, 2011 16:02:08 | Depending on how high you jump. If you jump high enough that you leave their threatened area (Upwards) and re-enter it, then you will provoke 2. If you jump just high enough to benefit from the feats, but don't ever leave the same threatened area, you provoke 1. Think of it like starting adjascent to an opponent with a reach weapon. You take a move action to move 15 away, and then 15 back. You provoke one for leaving and one or coming. |
| #24Maat_MonsFeb 16, 2011 10:32:59 | I can't see how you'd be subject to two attacks of opportunity no matter how high you jump. This rule really seems to limit you to one attack of opportunity (per opponent) for all movement in a round: [Combat reflexes] does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity … Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. |
| #25KruskFeb 16, 2011 12:45:58 | [Combat reflexes] does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity … Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. You can only make one attack for a given opportunity. EX: He moves away, you have 7 AoO's a round. You can only make one for that given opportunity, not your full 7. That second bit of rules basically says "if someone runs in a circle around you, you only get on AoO for all that movement." You won't provoke one each time you start movement in each time square you go through. But you will provoke one for leaving, and you will provoke one for entering. Gives 2. I am not 100% sure on this to be honest though. |
| #26death_isthe_beginingFeb 16, 2011 14:17:29 | It depends on whether they are playing 3.0 or 3.5. In 3.0 you provoke AoO for entering a threatened square where as in 3.5 they provoke for leaving a threatened square. The thing to note is that in neither edition do they provoke for entering and leaving. |
| #27KruskFeb 16, 2011 15:22:19 | It depends on whether they are playing 3.0 or 3.5. In 3.0 you provoke AoO for entering a threatened square where as in 3.5 they provoke for leaving a threatened square. The source of my confusion. Thank you for clearing it all up for me. 1 AOO ever. |