Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 facultasexsulis Feb 06, 2010 3:37:55	So I have a build for an archer I'd like some help optimizing for damage output. Currently I have: (After editing from first couple suggestions, which so far have pushed his potential damage to OMGWTFPINCUSHION) Quickened Lesser Tiefling (Details of quickened template at bottom, and the Tiefling works since this is for an evil campaign) Ranger-16 Scout-4 Str 16 Dex 28 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10 Racial Feats: Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative Feat from Scout: Improved Skirmish Feats from Ranger: Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot Decided Feats From lvl: Point Blank Shot, Greater Manyshot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Swift Hunter Undecided Feats: 2 (Is there an archer equivalent of Power Attack?) Favored Enemies: Undead, Constructs, Elementals (DM likes to send those at us) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How he works: Using the Quickening racial ability combined with a bow with the splitting effect, this guy fires 16 arrows/round.  Because of the Greater Manyshot feat, 8 of the arrows get +4d6 from Skirmish. We are looking at 16d8 + (composite bow and other stuff x 16) + 56d6(Skirmish) assuming all 8 attacks hit.  That's easily 350+ damage a round possibly reaching 500+ with a decent bow (+5 magical +6 composite).  I understand his weakness is DR with all those attacks, but that can be overcome with weapon augment crystals and special arrows. Feel free to suggest any class changes as long as he ends up with at least 16 BAB and the feats I have named (excluding Weapon Specialization and the Racial feats). Race changes are fine too as long as they have 0 LA.  The quickened template stays. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quickened is a template that can be added to any creature. A quickened differs from the base creature as follows: Speed: Increases by +50% in all modes. Special Qualities: Quickening (Ex) - Once per day, plus once per 6 Hit Dice, a quickened creature moves and acts more quickly than normal for a number of rounds equal to the creatures Hit Dice.  On its turn, the creature may take an extra standard action, either before or after its standard and move actions for a turn. It also gains +4 dodge bonus to AC. After using the ability, the creature is fatigued until it can rest for an hour (-10 minutes per point of Constitution bonus; +10 minutes per point of Constitution penalty, minimum 10 minutes). The creature may otherwise use this ability every 1d4+1 rounds after the last use expired, but suffers exhaustion if the ability is use while the creature is fatigued. Abilities: -2 Strength, +6 Dexterity Feats: A quickened gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat if it's Dexterity is now higher than its Strength. All quickened with Dexterity of 13 or higher gain Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative as bonus feats. CR +1 LA +2 (will have paid this off by 20)
#2 bruceleeroy Feb 06, 2010 5:06:39	God Damn that is a powerful template. Might as well be a quickened Lesser Tiefling.
#3 facultasexsulis Feb 06, 2010 5:18:33	It's in Book of Templates: Deluxe Edition 3.5 Not a WotC book, but it was approved by my DM.  Yeah, it essentially brings back 3.0 haste.
#4 Senevri Feb 06, 2010 8:58:28	Hm. Any synergy with Swift Hunters?  brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... I mean, you could use your std. to move then get full attack in. Spell Compendium has some nifty stuff for Rangers, so maybe not that bad a idea. Craft Wand might not be bad for rangers, either. Also, PsyWars could add Hustle to the build, giving moar full attack.
#5 facultasexsulis Feb 06, 2010 9:45:50	Thanks for pointing me to that guide.  Now I'll definitely drop the Fighter levels for Ranger and get the Swift Hunter Feat.  Still, this build is based on 2 standard actions as attacks, not a full round action.
#6 steelwind Feb 06, 2010 11:37:09	Thanks for pointing me to that guide.  Now I'll definitely drop the Fighter levels for Ranger and get the Swift Hunter Feat.  Still, this build is based on 2 standard actions as attacks, not a full round action. Two standard action in one round.....thats TWO Greater Manyshots with full skirmish damage per round!!  A Scout 4/Ranger 16 with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish, thats a base damage at 20th level of 8d8+56d6 not including strength, magic, crits, or other goodies if every arrow hits.
#7 aelryinth Feb 07, 2010 0:17:40	Much of the power of the build comes from being allowed use of a Splitting Bow.  I have no idea why your DM is allowing this...it's basically a +2 Enhancement that doubles your Damage.  Completely imblanced and totally broken....you should never, ever see any bow ever built with any other enhancement.  A standard weapon spec fighter using that effect can turn just about anything into a pincushion, without fancy multi-classing. ==Aelryinth
#8 TifRhal Feb 07, 2010 3:40:13	Splitting is actually a +3 enhancement and requires precise shot feat to use. Even as a +3 it is still very powerful my DM has ruled that it is a +5 enhancement requiring Precise shot and point blank as well as a BAB of +6 or better to use.
#9 dacman Feb 07, 2010 11:47:21	Forgive my ignorance, but why are you taking 16 levels of Ranger? It looks like you want the combat style goodies, but I think you could get away with just 11 levels. Fill up the rest with Fighter. or PsyWar. or some nice prestige class You can get ranged Power Attack without feats; If you have this bow: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20...
#10 facultasexsulis Feb 08, 2010 20:30:33	Because of the Swift Hunter feat.  If I drop Ranger levels I lose some of both Favored enemy and Skirmish damage.
#11 dacman Feb 09, 2010 8:00:37	Ah, sorry; I see now. Since you do have a ton of actions per round with that very nice template, why not take some Psionic feats anyway (with a dip or the Wild Talent feat). I could see this build Fell Shotting a Manyshot and refocusing every round with some sort of anti-fatigue deal. Lots and lots of arrows.
#12 aelryinth Feb 09, 2010 18:24:32	Splitting is actually a +3 enhancement and requires precise shot feat to use. Even as a +3 it is still very powerful my DM has ruled that it is a +5 enhancement requiring Precise shot and point blank as well as a BAB of +6 or better to use. It's still overpowered. Compare these effects: Vorpal weapon, kill on a Nat 20. Double Damage. Get one extra attack on a full attack action. These are all +5 effects.  Which of these is the most powerful?  If you said double dmg is MUCh better then +1 attack or a 5% chance of an instant kill, you are quite correct.  Statistically speaking, SPEED is worth about +35% dmg, and only on full attacks.  Vorpal is worth maybe 25%, and doesn't even kill everything.  Vs +100% dmg, every round, all the time? And those feat requirements...aren't.  Any bow build will have those feats anyways, that isn't a COST at all. Splitting is an Epic level enhancement.  If your DM allows it, kindly ask the Fighter at the table to get his own double dmg enhancement for his greatsword, it's only fair.  Funny, but for +3 you aren't going to get all that much damage, all the time.  Maybe +25%. ===Aelryinth
#13 snakeman830 Feb 09, 2010 19:18:03	Get one extra attack on a full attack action. These are all +5 effects.  Which of these is the most powerful?  If you said double dmg is MUCh better then +1 attack or a 5% chance of an instant kill, you are quite correct.  Statistically speaking, SPEED is worth about +35% dmg, and only on full attacks. Speed is a +3 ability.  You may want to use a different example.
#14 TifRhal Feb 10, 2010 3:36:34	Splitting is actually a +3 enhancement and requires precise shot feat to use. Even as a +3 it is still very powerful my DM has ruled that it is a +5 enhancement requiring Precise shot and point blank as well as a BAB of +6 or better to use. It's still overpowered. Compare these effects: Vorpal weapon, kill on a Nat 20. Double Damage. Get one extra attack on a full attack action. These are all +5 effects.  Which of these is the most powerful?  If you said double dmg is MUCh better then +1 attack or a 5% chance of an instant kill, you are quite correct.  Statistically speaking, SPEED is worth about +35% dmg, and only on full attacks.  Vorpal is worth maybe 25%, and doesn't even kill everything.  Vs +100% dmg, every round, all the time? And those feat requirements...aren't.  Any bow build will have those feats anyways, that isn't a COST at all. Splitting is an Epic level enhancement.  If your DM allows it, kindly ask the Fighter at the table to get his own double dmg enhancement for his greatsword, it's only fair.  Funny, but for +3 you aren't going to get all that much damage, all the time.  Maybe +25%. ===Aelryinth Yes it is powerful but have you seen the many fang dagger from serpent kingdoms talk to the DM adjust the price and now you have a greatsword that does 8d6 on a hit then X5 on a crit all for around 32,350 gold talk about powerful weapon. If you look at the pricing the Many fang is a +3 melee version of splitting so there you go walk over to your fighter and tell him to hook up his greatsword.
#15 aelryinth Feb 10, 2010 9:24:50	Splitting is actually a +3 enhancement and requires precise shot feat to use. Even as a +3 it is still very powerful my DM has ruled that it is a +5 enhancement requiring Precise shot and point blank as well as a BAB of +6 or better to use. It's still overpowered. Compare these effects: Vorpal weapon, kill on a Nat 20. Double Damage. Get one extra attack on a full attack action. These are all +5 effects.  Which of these is the most powerful?  If you said double dmg is MUCh better then +1 attack or a 5% chance of an instant kill, you are quite correct.  Statistically speaking, SPEED is worth about +35% dmg, and only on full attacks.  Vorpal is worth maybe 25%, and doesn't even kill everything.  Vs +100% dmg, every round, all the time? And those feat requirements...aren't.  Any bow build will have those feats anyways, that isn't a COST at all. Splitting is an Epic level enhancement.  If your DM allows it, kindly ask the Fighter at the table to get his own double dmg enhancement for his greatsword, it's only fair.  Funny, but for +3 you aren't going to get all that much damage, all the time.  Maybe +25%. ===Aelryinth Yes it is powerful but have you seen the many fang dagger from serpent kingdoms talk to the DM adjust the price and now you have a greatsword that does 8d6 on a hit then X5 on a crit all for around 32,350 gold talk about powerful weapon. If you look at the pricing the Many fang is a +3 melee version of splitting so there you go walk over to your fighter and tell him to hook up his greatsword. Yeah, the manyfang dagger is another case of this gross stupidity in assigning dmg potential.  They thought they could minimize the effect by making it apply only to daggers? Sorry, dudes, weapons don't work like that.  Here, meet my MANYCLAWED GREATSWORD, thank you. Actually, I'll keep using Speed because it just shows how overpowered the effect is ;)  Thanks for the correction on cost.  I was going to use Brilliant at +4, but didn't want to get into Power Attack territory and dubious usefulness. What's really sad is that the 8d6 dmg/attack is probably reasonable for a level 20 fighter. Bleh. ==Aelryinth