The book seems pretty clear. A lycanthrope has hit points equal to his his animal hit dice plus his Con modifier in his animal (or hybrid) form and his class hit dice plus his con modifier in his human form. For example a werebear (+8 con in animal form)5 level barbarian with 12 con in his normal form has
6d8+30+ 5d12 + 5 hit points.
Correct?
What about if he take a couple of levels in warshaper? Will his hit ponts increase when he takes his animal ( or hybrid ) form?
No, you keep your hitpoints, no matter the constitution of your new form. So you never get more hitpoints from the con bonus the warshaper gives, for example
Correct. Check out the Wildshape errata over on the WotC site. It clarifies it. Thats why most druid builds you see around here prioritize Wisdom/Con then everything else.
And in all forms, lycanthropes gain the benefits of all their HD but the Con of their humanoid form.
So: (Animal HD * human Con) + (class HD * human con) = total for all forms
Also, Warshaper is still an awesome class for you as a Lycanthrope, though as pointed out, you won't gain hit points from the Con change. Make sure to take the Quick Change feat from SS as well, because combined with the Warshaper capstone, it will let you change forms as a free action.
A pity, thats a big nerf for a werebear.
Well at least his +8 from bear, +4 from warhaper and +6 from Vow of poverty constitution will have great synergy with Steadfast Determination and Fist of the forest
.And in all forms, lycanthropes gain the benefits of all their HD but the Con of their humanoid form.
Alternate form does not change your hit points, but according to the entry under “hit dice and hit points” on page 175 of the monster manual, lycanthropes use a unique method for calculating hit points.
Alternate form does not change your hit points, but according to the entry under “hit dice and hit points” on page 175 of the monster manual, lycanthropes use a unique method for calculating hit points.
The only thing that could support that claim is where it says 'To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form.'
But the Alternate Form errata specifically states that it's changes to Constitution don't affect HP, so when you apply the Con modifier of each form that is allowed to affect HP, HP doesn't change and you always use the human form Con mod.
There's no inconsistency as written, though it could have been done much more clearly. As well, the intent is obvious. Since the Lycanthrope template created no exceptions to the original Alternate Form rules, it should also create no exceptions to the new Alternate Form rules, unless extra errata was printed saying such.
...just kidding ... just kidding ...
Most games I've seen allow the improved CON to benefit ... but it is funny that a lycanthrope (full on) has a different mechanic than say ... a shifter (supposedly a weak, distilled descendant). Ah well, we knew that anyway when the lycanthropes had a level adjustment and crap animal HD too.
But the Alternate Form errata specifically states that it's changes to Constitution don't affect HP.... Since the Lycanthrope template created no exceptions to the original Alternate Form rules, it should also create no exceptions to the new Alternate Form rules, unless extra errata was printed saying such.
The original version of alternate form didn’t change hit points either. Here is a quote from the original version of alternate form.
The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
Since the new version of alternate form is the same as the old with regard to hit points, it’s not pertinent to this discussion. Lycanthropes were an exception to the old version, so they are an exception to the new version.
But what if my lycanthrope was a Deepwarden?
...just kidding ... just kidding ...
They'd get the Con of whatever form they were in to AC, unlimited by Max Dex. ;)
The original version of alternate form didn’t change hit points either. Here is a quote from the original version of alternate form.
Since the new version of alternate form is the same as the old with regard to hit points, it’s not pertinent to this discussion. Lycanthropes were an exception to the old version, so they are an exception to the new version.
The old version was not incompatible with the Lycanthrope entry. Retaining hit points does not mean you are unable to add more, and the very next line of the original says you increase Con, and one of the benefits of increasing Con is adding HP.
The new version, however, explicitly states that is one benefit of Con you do not get. But it's still fully compatible with the Lycanthrope entry, since you still gain 'apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form.' The application of them is just limited by the Alternate Form changes.
So again, I repeat myself, there's no inconsistency as written, though it could have been done much more clearly. As well, the intent is obvious. Since the Lycanthrope template created no exceptions to the original Alternate Form rules, it should also create no exceptions to the new Alternate Form rules, unless extra errata was printed saying such. In all forms, lycanthropes gain the benefits of all their HD but the Con of their humanoid form.
This is the RaW and the RaI stance, and has been clarified as such as well.
Now, that doesn't mean I agree that's what it should be, but please stop spreading your misinformation.
The old version was not incompatible with the Lycanthrope entry. Retaining hit points does not mean you are unable to add more, and the very next line of the original says you increase Con, and one of the benefits of increasing Con is adding HP.
Under that interpretation, lycanthropes conflicted with the original version of alternate form because they should have gained hit points when they transformed but didn’t. It also raises questions of how constitution decreases are handled when using alternate form.
I would like to evaluate your claim “retaining hit points does not mean you are unable to add more” in conjunction with the new wording of alternate form “the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.” Under your interpretation, this new text only stops your hit points from going down, not up. So, if the new form has a lower constitution than the original, this stops any loss of hit points. If the new form has a higher constitution than the original, this does not stop your hit points from increasing.
The same wording is used in both the new and old versions. Either both prevent hit point increase, or neither does.
Under that interpretation, lycanthropes conflicted with the original version of alternate form because they should have gained hit points when they transformed but didn’t.
They gained hit points from increased Con. This was not a conflict with old alternate form.
It also raises questions of how constitution decreases are handled when using alternate form.
Normally a Con loss loses you hit points, but old alternate form specified you retained them, so you just stayed where you were.
New alternate form says you retain despite Con change, making it clear that retain means 'to hold in place or position' instead of ' to keep possession of,' both common and practical definitions.
While the same word is used in both versions, the same wording is not. The addition of that clause drastically alters the meaning within context. This is also normal for the English language.
That meaning, however, is still not contrary to the wording of the Lycanthrope template. It limits it, but does not negate it, nor does the wording of the template necessarily negate the template.
So please, stop trying to claim a falsehood and accept that, per RaW and RaI both, Lycanthropes no longer gain hit points when changing forms.
I, too, wish it wasn't true... But changing it is a houserule, and not something to go around claiming as true to the standard rules.