Lycanthropic Feat Selection Options - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Lycanthropic Feat Selection Options

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dielzen
Aug 06, 2007 21:18:47 In order to avoid cluttering up the Handbook thread, I'm posting the pertinent points of the ongoing argument in this thread and linking to it.

First of all a couple quotes from the SRD regarding lycanthropes, note that the sections come from two different sections, the first from the template description, the second from the lycanthropes as characters section

Template wrote:
#2
khaim
Aug 10, 2007 21:24:03 I agree with you. The "template" rules are very clear, and do not contradict the "as PCs" rules. The former says "a character of its total Hit Dice" and the latter just spells that out.

As for the argument that you should always get to choose your non-bonus feats, well, you're gaining an animal side. Do animals get to choose their feats? I don't think it's unreasonable to say they don't; they're born with them. In which case, if you gain "bear HD", and they happen to come with "bear feats", well, that's how it is.
#3
nanshork
Aug 11, 2007 14:57:30
As for the argument that you should always get to choose your non-bonus feats, well, you're gaining an animal side. Do animals get to choose their feats? I don't think it's unreasonable to say they don't; they're born with them. In which case, if you gain "bear HD", and they happen to come with "bear feats", well, that's how it is.

Actually, animals can choose their feats. All monsters can. Dungeonscape even has a section about alternate feat choices for monsters. The feats listed are just the norm.
#4
khaim
Aug 11, 2007 16:52:50
Actually, animals can choose their feats. All monsters can. Dungeonscape even has a section about alternate feat choices for monsters. The feats listed are just the norm.

You would appear to be correct. Okay, I withdraw that point. However, the lycanthrope text is still fairly clear: the animal HD comes with the animal feats listed.
#5
nanshork
Aug 11, 2007 17:00:12
You would appear to be correct. Okay, I withdraw that point. However, the lycanthrope text is still fairly clear: the animal HD comes with the animal feats listed.

I believe that that text is for creating NPC's simply. The PC text says you add the animal HD to base HD to determine how many feats you get, not to add the animal's feats to your base feats.

I could fire off a question to custserv about it if you'd like.
#6
theabyssdragon
Aug 11, 2007 20:26:40 In my opinion you determine the number of non-bonus feats you have by your total HD as normal, and can choose whatever feats you qualify for.

If you play a minotaur PC, you're not stuck with the minotaur feats, you can choose whatever feats you want.
#7
nanshork
Aug 11, 2007 20:59:25
In my opinion you determine the number of non-bonus feats you have by your total HD as normal, and can choose whatever feats you qualify for.

If you play a minotaur PC, you're not stuck with the minotaur feats, you can choose whatever feats you want.

My point exactly. :D
#8
dielzen
Aug 12, 2007 2:12:09 Playing a Mino and applying a template aren't the same thing. That's like saying a Fighter doesn't get Heavy Armor because a Wizard doesn't.

Apples to apples means something, comparing a template to a race means nothing.
#9
kirak
Aug 12, 2007 6:22:09
Feats: Add the base animal’s feats to the base creature’s.

This is what I think your getting stuck on. The Lycanthrope has a +2/+3 LA that gives some bonuses and animal feats, ex Iron Will, Endurance and Run for a Werebear. These you have to take and you can't change them. This is where the templete applies.

The HD just add to your current HD for determining feat choices.

It breaks down to HD letting you chose the feats you'd gain, but the LA you stuck with what ever abilities it has since it is set and doesn't contribute to feat progression anyway.
#10
ejothims
Oct 22, 2007 16:39:32 Note, that the bonus feat line works off of just HD, so a Human's racial feat is not consumed by this, as it is an open bonus feat from race, not a feat derived from HD.

And it's pretty clear that you gain the animal feats. The confusion comes because the rules for applying the template are split up between the templates entry and the 'for PCs' entry. I still wish they had reformatted it to follow the standard template entries.

Also, though it's not feat related, I noticed some other problems with the assumptions in your handbook.

You only add the animal’s HD to your ECL and gain everything it has, so templated animals that don’t add HD can be added at zero cost.

This is wrong.

MM errata changed Alternate Form so that you cannot become a creature with a template. This applies to your hybrid form as well. The same errata also causes you to lose all Ex attacks not derived from class levels, so exotic races and templates on the humanoid (feral ) are much, much less appealing.

Also, when changing forms you do not gain hit points for a higher con, but you still gain the con bonus on saves and other abilities.

You should really reread the MM errata and double check the stuff in your opening posts to make sure it's all compliant with the changes.
#11
bauglir
Mar 19, 2008 14:03:58 You gain the feats of the animal, yes. But animals do get to choose their feats. So who is to say that the feats of a natural lycanthrope didn't come from a wolf with the particular feats you were interested in? Now, as is written there, if you contract lycanthropy, there is an argument available in that the lycanthrope that bit you had pre-existing feats, but it still contradicts the rule that you choose feats as you gain hit dice. I suggest a CustServ ruling on this point, as it's two contradictory parts of RAW.
#12
flawless_p
Jun 21, 2009 16:18:00 So the real question is do you get to pick the feats of the animal when you become/make a lycanthrope.

Short answer:
DM's choice.

Long Answer:
Because you get the feats of the base animal, the only way you get to pick those feats are if the DM lets you choose what feats the animal has.

So the werewolf that bites you has either has standard wolf feats or he his bloodline is different and you get unique feats that most wolves don't have.

Same goes for Natural. Think of it as a bloodline where when your "Family" started however natural lycanthrope originated, the animal feats that were given are passed down to each natural lycanthrope.

So while the DM gets to choose what feats the Base Animal had. You would be technically correct about the choosing feats idea.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dielzen Aug 06, 2007 21:18:47	In order to avoid cluttering up the Handbook thread, I'm posting the pertinent points of the ongoing argument in this thread and linking to it. First of all a couple quotes from the SRD regarding lycanthropes, note that the sections come from two different sections, the first from the template description, the second from the lycanthropes as characters section Template wrote:
#2 khaim Aug 10, 2007 21:24:03	I agree with you. The "template" rules are very clear, and do not contradict the "as PCs" rules. The former says "a character of its total Hit Dice" and the latter just spells that out. As for the argument that you should always get to choose your non-bonus feats, well, you're gaining an animal side. Do animals get to choose their feats? I don't think it's unreasonable to say they don't; they're born with them. In which case, if you gain "bear HD", and they happen to come with "bear feats", well, that's how it is.
#3 nanshork Aug 11, 2007 14:57:30	As for the argument that you should always get to choose your non-bonus feats, well, you're gaining an animal side. Do animals get to choose their feats? I don't think it's unreasonable to say they don't; they're born with them. In which case, if you gain "bear HD", and they happen to come with "bear feats", well, that's how it is. Actually, animals can choose their feats. All monsters can. Dungeonscape even has a section about alternate feat choices for monsters. The feats listed are just the norm.
#4 khaim Aug 11, 2007 16:52:50	Actually, animals can choose their feats. All monsters can. Dungeonscape even has a section about alternate feat choices for monsters. The feats listed are just the norm. You would appear to be correct. Okay, I withdraw that point. However, the lycanthrope text is still fairly clear: the animal HD comes with the animal feats listed.
#5 nanshork Aug 11, 2007 17:00:12	You would appear to be correct. Okay, I withdraw that point. However, the lycanthrope text is still fairly clear: the animal HD comes with the animal feats listed. I believe that that text is for creating NPC's simply. The PC text says you add the animal HD to base HD to determine how many feats you get, not to add the animal's feats to your base feats. I could fire off a question to custserv about it if you'd like.
#6 theabyssdragon Aug 11, 2007 20:26:40	In my opinion you determine the number of non-bonus feats you have by your total HD as normal, and can choose whatever feats you qualify for. If you play a minotaur PC, you're not stuck with the minotaur feats, you can choose whatever feats you want.
#7 nanshork Aug 11, 2007 20:59:25	In my opinion you determine the number of non-bonus feats you have by your total HD as normal, and can choose whatever feats you qualify for. If you play a minotaur PC, you're not stuck with the minotaur feats, you can choose whatever feats you want. My point exactly. :D
#8 dielzen Aug 12, 2007 2:12:09	Playing a Mino and applying a template aren't the same thing. That's like saying a Fighter doesn't get Heavy Armor because a Wizard doesn't. Apples to apples means something, comparing a template to a race means nothing.
#9 kirak Aug 12, 2007 6:22:09	Feats: Add the base animal’s feats to the base creature’s. This is what I think your getting stuck on. The Lycanthrope has a +2/+3 LA that gives some bonuses and animal feats, ex Iron Will, Endurance and Run for a Werebear. These you have to take and you can't change them. This is where the templete applies. The HD just add to your current HD for determining feat choices. It breaks down to HD letting you chose the feats you'd gain, but the LA you stuck with what ever abilities it has since it is set and doesn't contribute to feat progression anyway.
#10 ejothims Oct 22, 2007 16:39:32	Note, that the bonus feat line works off of just HD, so a Human's racial feat is not consumed by this, as it is an open bonus feat from race, not a feat derived from HD. And it's pretty clear that you gain the animal feats. The confusion comes because the rules for applying the template are split up between the templates entry and the 'for PCs' entry. I still wish they had reformatted it to follow the standard template entries. Also, though it's not feat related, I noticed some other problems with the assumptions in your handbook. You only add the animal’s HD to your ECL and gain everything it has, so templated animals that don’t add HD can be added at zero cost. This is wrong. MM errata changed Alternate Form so that you cannot become a creature with a template. This applies to your hybrid form as well. The same errata also causes you to lose all Ex attacks not derived from class levels, so exotic races and templates on the humanoid (feral ) are much, much less appealing. Also, when changing forms you do not gain hit points for a higher con, but you still gain the con bonus on saves and other abilities. You should really reread the MM errata and double check the stuff in your opening posts to make sure it's all compliant with the changes.
#11 bauglir Mar 19, 2008 14:03:58	You gain the feats of the animal, yes. But animals do get to choose their feats. So who is to say that the feats of a natural lycanthrope didn't come from a wolf with the particular feats you were interested in? Now, as is written there, if you contract lycanthropy, there is an argument available in that the lycanthrope that bit you had pre-existing feats, but it still contradicts the rule that you choose feats as you gain hit dice. I suggest a CustServ ruling on this point, as it's two contradictory parts of RAW.
#12 flawless_p Jun 21, 2009 16:18:00	So the real question is do you get to pick the feats of the animal when you become/make a lycanthrope. Short answer: DM's choice. Long Answer: Because you get the feats of the base animal, the only way you get to pick those feats are if the DM lets you choose what feats the animal has. So the werewolf that bites you has either has standard wolf feats or he his bloodline is different and you get unique feats that most wolves don't have. Same goes for Natural. Think of it as a bloodline where when your "Family" started however natural lycanthrope originated, the animal feats that were given are passed down to each natural lycanthrope. So while the DM gets to choose what feats the Base Animal had. You would be technically correct about the choosing feats idea.