Lyric Spell makes no mention whatsoever of whether metamagic can be applied to it (only mentions Silent Spell). Doesn't it mostly push Metamagic Song into the trashcan, then?
Picture this: as early as getting a 6th-level spell slot, you could conceivably persist 6th-level spells by spending 13 uses of Bardic Music. Granted, it's a lot of Bardic Music out the window, but isn't it worth it?
Sorry if this has been posted before, but I think this should be brought to attention.
Lyric Spell makes no mention whatsoever of whether metamagic can be applied to it (only mentions Silent Spell). Doesn't it mostly push Metamagic Song into the trashcan, then?
Picture this: as early as getting a 6th-level spell slot, you could conceivably persist 6th-level spells by spending 13 uses of Bardic Music. Granted, it's a lot of Bardic Music out the window, but isn't it worth it?
What 6th level spells would be worth throwing most of your musics out the window?
Also, if you were really going to abuse *just* Lyric Spell, there's nothing to stop you from taking Extra Music a bunch of times in order to have lots of music to throw around. Not a good idea really as it sends you in a 'one-trick pony' direction.
A more interesting way of going about it would be to take only a few levels of Bard then a bunch of levels of another spellcasting class and apply the lyric spell metamagic trick to the spells from the other class. Once again, you'd end up having to use alternative means of gaining Bardic Music uses, but it would work. Still would be terribly inefficient.
EDIT: On second thought, you don't even really have to bother with Sorceror levels, just take Sublime Chord and use that - it has access to the Sorc/Wiz list. Persistent Polymorph, here we come...
Still would be terribly inefficient.
EDIT: On second thought, you don't even really have to bother with Sorceror levels, just take Sublime Chord and use that - it has access to the Sorc/Wiz list. Persistent Polymorph, here we come...
Yeah, there's nothing inefficient with persistent polymorph(ish) spells. But I also like the potential for my favorite core Mystic Theurge (Bard/Druid) to get some nifty buffs that last a long time.
Yeah, there's nothing inefficient with persistent polymorph(ish) spells.
Not sure if you're trying to be sarcastic here...but I can say, yeah, there's nothing inefficient with persistent Divine Power. Wait a minute, DMM clerics do that all the time. Clearly can't be that bad of a deal, even if its 'inefficient' as you say.
From my POV, Lyric Spell looks a lot like a Bardic version of DMM, except, its actually better for several reasons:
1. If it does allow metamagic application, then it would theoretically work with any metamagic you know, instead of just one the way DMM does.
2. It does not specify the spells have to come from your own spell list, thus you can use it on spells from other arcane casting classes, as I mentioned before.
3. A Bard naturally gets more Bardic Music then a Cleric gets turning attempts; thus, without factoring items, a bard will be able to use Lyric Spell more then a Cleric can use DMM. Granted, once you throw Nightsticks into this equation, this really doesn't hold; but there might be an item comparable to Nightsticks for Bardic Music out there. I'd have to look.
In my opinion...on a single classed Bard, this isn't that great. The core bard spell list just doesn't have as much broken stuff to mess around with as a Sorc/Wiz or CoDzilla. This could be different if you take splatbook spells into account, I admit I'm not very well read on non-core bard material. If you're using a multiclass Bard, then yeah, Lyric Spell could get a bit broken I suppose, but I don't think it'd be much worse then DMM.
If you're using this for persisting things, I would say no, its not that bad - most of the best buffs are divine, with a few possible exceptions like polymorph. However I think this might be really funny to use to do Enervation cheese.
to BenSan - that is pure win. That could easily be done with Sublime Chord, or Wiz/Sorc + Items/Extra Music/Whatever. Pure win I say, pure win.1. If it does allow metamagic application, then it would theoretically work with any metamagic you know, instead of just one the way DMM does.
2. It does not specify the spells have to come from your own spell list, thus you can use it on spells from other arcane casting classes, as I mentioned before.
3. A Bard naturally gets more Bardic Music then a Cleric gets turning attempts; thus, without factoring items, a bard will be able to use Lyric Spell more then a Cleric can use DMM. Granted, once you throw Nightsticks into this equation, this really doesn't hold; but there might be an item comparable to Nightsticks for Bardic Music out there. I'd have to look.
Well, of course it won't be good on a Bard20... nothing does. As it is, there are VERY, VERY few reasons not to take any other PrC that advances Bard Music progression.
Oh, and I don't think it even mentions the spellcasting in question has to be arcane...
Also, on nightsticks: true, it doesn't hold, but it isn't as dependent on DM fiat as Nightsticks are (i.e. availability, stacking, etc). DMs rarely ever nerf bards.
Yeah, there's nothing inefficient with persistent polymorph(ish) spells. But I also like the potential for my favorite Mystic Theurge (Bard/Druid) to get some nifty buffs that last a long time.
How about Flochlucan Lyrist? Suddenly the guy's even MORE of a powerhouse.
The trick is to make it a Persistent Shapechange into a firre eladrin. Unlimited bardic music + Lyric Spell = winner is you.
Now you've got my interest... Fire Eladrins have unlimited Bard Songs per day?
I personally wouldn't go with Fochlucan though, as its prereqs are wacky. I think you'd need to do a rogue dip in addition to druid/bard to get into the PrC. It still wouldn't do much good as Lyric Spell doesn't work with divine. Sublime Chord would definitely be the way to go here, as it gives access to the persistent shapechange trick, at level 16 I believe...one level earlier then wizards get 9ths. Granted, Sublime Chord only gives half music progression, so at 16th you'd have 7 + 1/2(9) = 11 uses. You'd have to get items or take extra music in order to get the 16 uses it would take to cast a Persistent Shapechange. Once you get that its metamagic fun all around...
Now you've got my interest... Fire Eladrins have unlimited Bard Songs per day?
A firre "can use bardic music just as a bard can", except that "unlike a bard, however, a firre can sing as often as it likes". (There is other text to the ability, but these seem to be the relevant parts.)
They also get a neat gaze attack that sets people on fire and blinds them - not super-powerful, but since gaze attacks operate passively it doesn't cost you anything and it has a Cha-based DC.
Not sure if you're trying to be sarcastic here...but I can say, yeah, there's nothing inefficient with persistent Divine Power. Wait a minute, DMM clerics do that all the time.
I'm often sarcastic, but not in this case. Persisting anything polymorph(ish) *IS* awesome. So awesome, in act, it's not normally possible (since it's 4th level and PS costs 6 slots).
You're right that Bards by themselves don't get much worth persisting. So I'll also mention Chain Spell as another MM favorite. I think Chain Charm Monster would sortof rock.
Polymorph can't be persisted, it's a touch range spell. Draconic polymorph on the other hand...
Archmage Reach Spell feature gives fixed range.
Also, I fail to see the big deal compared to Incantatrix, who can do all that and then some without expending anything (except maybe some money to buy a +20 spellcraft item.)
Oh yeah, I guess those damn campaign setting restrictions get in the way.
Also, I fail to see the big deal compared to Incantatrix, who can do all that and then some without expending anything (except maybe some money to buy a +20 spellcraft item.)
Until, as mentioned, Shapechange is brought into the deal and used to become a firre eladrin, at which point the Lyric Spell-casting Sublime Chord has an unlimited well to draw from and needn't even expend base slots.
What you've discovered is nice, but hardly unknown. What it is is a way to spend a ton of bardic music to get some metamagic. Metamagic is good and it is always nice to be able to pay for it in ways other than the spell slot adjustment.
A bard x / incantrix y could do it easier, right? With more music left over and putting the feat into something else?
A dragonfire inspiration bard is adding +millions to his/her entire parties damage in added sonic dice.
A Lyric Thaumaturge is adding extra sonic dice of damage to his/her spells.
etc.
It's an option, but not the best and most efficient. Similar to the Bard / Druid -> Mystic Theurge (god I hope that was sarcasm WWAD) ... you can do it ... and maybe make some lemonade ... and that might help on a hot summer's day ... but if you do have the option to go inside, raid the fridge and watch TV then making that lemonade on the driveway is only fun as an exercise of some other sort
Um, no.
What you've discovered is nice, but hardly unknown. What it is is a way to spend a ton of bardic music to get some metamagic. Metamagic is good and it is always nice to be able to pay for it in ways other than the spell slot adjustment.
A bard x / incantrix y could do it easier, right? With more music left over and putting the feat into something else?
A dragonfire inspiration bard is adding +millions to his/her entire parties damage in added sonic dice.
A Lyric Thaumaturge is adding extra sonic dice of damage to his/her spells.
etc.
It's an option, but not the best and most efficient. Similar to the Bard / Druid -> Mystic Theurge (god I hope that was sarcasm WWAD) ... you can do it ... and maybe make some lemonade ... and that might help on a hot summer's day ... but if you do have the option to go inside, raid the fridge and watch TV then making that lemonade on the driveway is only fun as an exercise of some other sort
Yes, until you get the Fire Eladrin trick. Then it just gets funny.
Prismatic Dragon, meet my finger. Oh wait... SR. Damn.
Quicken (for things such as Dimension Door... heck, Quicken in general) is another dead giveaway.
Oh, and one more piece of advice: don't bother persisting Shapechange. Cast it, then cast Bestow Curse/Greater Curse on yourself and voluntarily fail the Will save. The conditions are the following: "You're stuck in that form forever. The only way to break this curse is to (insert something diametrally opposed to your alignment here, or something easily done but that you can't do by accident)".
The pros: you don't change back unless someone casts Break Enchantment (or Wish/Miracle, if Greater). Not even an AMF stops the Shapechange effect.
The cons: you're considered a chaotic good outsider, with all the accompanying problems. Nothing Undetectable Alignment can't solve. You can't change back... but do you actually want to?
Ah, yes. Another effect of becoming a Firre Eladrin is that you can cast spells of a cleric of your HD +4... And it has an advancement all the way up to 20 HD. Granted, its domains are kinda sucky, but them's the breaks.
This is not a Su or Ex ability, so it's extremely unlikely that you get it.
Unless, of course, you manage to pull off some bastardry that lets you enter Planar Shepherd and use it to advance bard/Sublime Chord spellcasting. This is possible but may or may not be worth it.
Archmage Reach Spell feature gives fixed range.
Also, I fail to see the big deal compared to Incantatrix, who can do all that and then some without expending anything (except maybe some money to buy a +20 spellcraft item.)
Oh yeah, I guess those damn campaign setting restrictions get in the way.
Well, show me a DM who is stupid enough to allow custom skill bonus items...
You know the 6th lvl spell but I would say you cant cast the persisted version spontaneously so you couldnt use lyric spell to do it.
Might be wrong here but that is how I see.
So if you have to know the spell and be able to cast it spontaneously, then how are you going to cast a persisted 6th lvl spell as a bard ?
You know the 6th lvl spell but I would say you cant cast the persisted version spontaneously so you couldnt use lyric spell to do it.
Might be wrong here but that is how I see.
The feat doesn't place a cap on the spell level you can cast with it. The part about being able to cast it spontaneously is to prevent someone from using a Wizard to gain access to this trick.
But it only mentions silent spell(I guess because of the speciel rules for bardic spellcasting, which if they didnt mention it would have people claiming you could make silent spells with it) and doesnt anything about being allowed to bypass the normal rules about metamagic feats, so I would say that it doenst allow to bypass the requirement to be able to cast the spell.
I know that there isnt a spell called "persistent shapechange" in the books but when you apply the metamagic feats on them you create the "new" spell.
I can see that I might be close to "RAI" here but to be honest i have never read it in any other way and I'm just seeking to be enlightend.
Similar to the Bard / Druid -> Mystic Theurge (god I hope that was sarcasm WWAD) ...
I edited my post to have the word "core" which I omitted. I'll stand by that and say I still think Bard/Druid for a core build makes a decent MT. Of course, Lyric Spell isn't core.. meh.
That would depend on whether you make a distinction between a normal spell and a metamagicked one. Given that there's no spell named "Persistent Shapechange" or the like, I would say, based on the wording of the feat, that no, there is no distinction. RAW, it should work as Kuro outlined. However, you would be correct in that most DMs would read and interpret it as you do.
Or rather, would choose to, to prevent abuse (although this isn't that abusable: barring Firre Eladrin shenanigans, people don't usually have that many Bardic songs to throw out the window). Bards by themselves don't really have that many spells worth persisting, or enough offensive magic to go about empowering/maximizing; it is only when combined with Sublime Chord that the crap really hits the fan.
But it still states that you should be able to cast the spell - which you wouldnt, since you are trying to cast a lvl 12 spell.
No, it states that the feat applies to arcane spells that you can spontaneously cast -- in other words, that Wizard arcane spellcasting levels and the like do not apply for the feat. It still leaves the possibility of casting spells you wouldn't normally be able to cast open -- except it does so with nothing more than spending a feat, whereas to get similar abilities you sometimes have to get 5-10 levels in a PrC to do so (case in point, Incantatrix: severe PrC requirements, lots of power to go around...).
Yes
But it only mentions silent spell(I guess because of the speciel rules for bardic spellcasting, which if they didnt mention it would have people claiming you could make silent spells with it) and doesnt anything about being allowed to bypass the normal rules about metamagic feats, so I would say that it doenst allow to bypass the requirement to be able to cast the spell.
I know that there isnt a spell called "persistent shapechange" in the books but when you apply the metamagic feats on them you create the "new" spell.
I can see that I might be close to "RAI" here but to be honest i have never read it in any other way and I'm just seeking to be enlightend.
Because RAW is so valued in these boards (and much less discussed than RAI), I tend to try the most RAW-friendly approach. It just so happens that RAW is stronger than RAI this time. But I leave the final call of opinion on this one up to you.
The trick is to make it a Persistent Shapechange into a firre eladrin. Unlimited bardic music + Lyric Spell = winner is you.
At will or unlimited doesn't mean {some large number}/uses per day.
In other words, if the number of uses needed to be sacrificed is greater than 1 then you may not be able to use Lyric spell with Firre's Bardic Music ability.
It would be an "ask your DM" call, since it isn't clear in the RAW.
At will or unlimited doesn't mean {some large number}/uses per day.
In other words, if the number of uses needed to be sacrificed is greater than 1 then you may not be able to use Lyric spell with Firre's Bardic Music ability.
It would be an "ask your DM" call, since it isn't clear in the RAW.
Well, we're extrapolating here. I can't recall off the top of my head any monster that could use that kind of ability in that way. Remember that the feat showed up after the BoED did.
But hey, I suppose it's pretty much on level with the Nightstick stacking thing.
Although, last I checked, unlimited means just that -- unlimited. As in infinite. While it isn't 100% clear, it's not really that much of a stretch...
While it isn't 100% clear, it's not really that much of a stretch...
I agree with both (that it isn't clear) and that it could be read to be both ways.
My point is because it could be read both ways, there is no RAW. There is only "WWMDD" (What Would My DM Do.)
I'm AFB right now but could you use Metamagic song with lyric song to clear spell level hurdles? I'm not sure what the action cost for lyric and metamagic song are (standard or full-round?) but melodic casting may be able to help some. Also depending on clarification on the Combine Song class feature of both the seeker of song and warchanter PrC's that may be an option too (use 2 bardic music abilities at once.) seeker of song gets that ability sooner at 2nd level of the PrC but I don't remember all the requirements to enter and neither advance spell casting at all.
Metamagic Song actually caps the highest spell slot you can cast, so it's not an option.
Also, don't misunderstand: Lyric Spell does not enable you to cast a spell as a song, it provides you with a means to cast without a spell slot.
I agree with both (that it isn't clear) and that it could be read to be both ways.
My point is because it could be read both ways, there is no RAW. There is only "WWMDD" (What Would My DM Do.)
Well, I'm pretty sure most DMs would say no... But with a SC having even less spells known than an average sorcerer, it may not really be that big an issue.