Mace Rogue - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Mace Rogue

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
thehat
Mar 16, 2010 18:43:20 Right. Need to figure out how to build this thing. It's a level 14 character for a campaign that's just starting out.

So far I figure Rogue 5/Fighter 2/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Assassin 6, and would continue on in the Assassin Progression. I also kind of want to make this guy a dual mace user, fixing the issue of weapon finesse with making them large feycraft weapons, and equipping Strongarm Bracers to free up an extra feat (due to solving weapon finesse).

So I reckon Combat reflexes (for the Lightning Maces feat), TWF, Improved TWF at the minimum?
#2
garindal
Mar 16, 2010 20:07:02 erdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just a thought, but do you really want maces? You could use the Adaptive weapon ability (I think its called) and use something like kukris instead, for a better crit range since with lightning maces you only have to threaten a critical hit, not confirm it.
#3
NiteCyper
Mar 16, 2010 20:22:49 Option 1: Focus on the TWF feat tree (and precision damage), ditching maces.
Option 2: Focus on TWF Mace-onry, ditching precision damage.
#4
thehat
Mar 17, 2010 13:57:19
Option 1: Focus on the TWF feat tree (and precision damage), ditching maces.
Option 2: Focus on TWF Mace-onry, ditching precision damage.

Hm... well, what would be better?

Right now it's a toss-up between maces or kukri knives, and any one of them wouldf work out just fine.
#5
empirate
Mar 20, 2010 3:56:24 Since Lightning Maces requires you to generate Threats, you'd be best off with dual Kukris and some way of getting an Improved Critical effect with them (most likely a Scabbard of Keen Edges). The Kukris would have to have the Aptitude enchantment, of course. Works nicely with LM and can set you up for a veritable storm of attacks. Forget bigger weapon sizes, the paltry extra damage isn't worth it. Instead, focus on precision damage. Meaning you need Deathstrike Bracers instead of Strongarm, as well as those nifty weapon augment crystals. Still, you'll need to have a fallback in case of elementals crashing your party. UMD comes to mind...
#6
thehat
Mar 21, 2010 0:09:01
Since Lightning Maces requires you to generate Threats, you'd be best off with dual Kukris and some way of getting an Improved Critical effect with them (most likely a Scabbard of Keen Edges). The Kukris would have to have the Aptitude enchantment, of course. Works nicely with LM and can set you up for a veritable storm of attacks. Forget bigger weapon sizes, the paltry extra damage isn't worth it. Instead, focus on precision damage. Meaning you need Deathstrike Bracers instead of Strongarm, as well as those nifty weapon augment crystals. Still, you'll need to have a fallback in case of elementals crashing your party. UMD comes to mind...

Where would I find the Aptitude weapon enchantment?

Also, does LM = lightning maces like last time, or...?

Also, the bigger weapon size was just in order to make them Feycraft and make them count towards Weapon Finesse without loosing damage.

#7
empirate
Mar 23, 2010 9:20:30 LM is Lightning Maces, yes. I forget where the Aptitude enchantment is located. Basically, it allows you to apply all weapon-specific feats to the enchanted weapon. Meaning you can apply the effects of Weapon Focus: Light Mace and Lightning Maces to your two +1 Aptitude Kukris.

Losing a single point of base damage on the weapon shouldn't really bother you. Your damage output comes from precision damage, not base weapon damage. This is the reason why Pixie rogues are so nice: even though they can only wield teeny tiny weapons, they still deal the same sneak attack dice as anybody else, regardless of size. But because of their invisibility, they deal those dice much more consistently.

For classes, I recommend Swashbuckler4/Rogue16, and the Daring Outlaw feat. This allows you a nice blend of HP, +16 BAB, and full +10d6 Sneak Attack as well as Int to damage. You lose a few skillpoints compared to straight Rogue, but still outclass your own build idea in this department. You also gain two Rogue special abilities, which are very nice.
Assassin levels provide a few spells, but don't do much for you otherwise. Fighter 2 is meh, only there for the feats. Nightsong Enforcer is a nice dip for +1d6 and +1 BAB, but with Daring Outlaw, superfluous.
#8
snakeman830
Mar 23, 2010 11:03:37 Aptitude weapon enhancement is from Tome of Battle.
#9
true_shinken
Mar 23, 2010 18:31:28
Aptitude weapon enhancement is from Tome of Battle.

It is also highly debatle if it allows stuff like Lightning Mace to work, since the Warblade similar ability does nothing of the sort. Probably not intended, RAW it works, your DM might ban it on sight.
#10
empirate
Mar 24, 2010 12:15:18

It is also highly debatable if it allows stuff like Lightning Mace to work, since the Warblade similar ability does nothing of the sort. Probably not intended, RAW it works, your DM might should ban it on sight.

Fixed that for you.

But hey, this here's CO country. RAW it is, so Aptitude Kukris it will be.
#11
true_shinken
Mar 27, 2010 9:05:58

It is also highly debatable if it allows stuff like Lightning Mace to work, since the Warblade similar ability does nothing of the sort. Probably not intended, RAW it works, your DM might should ban it on sight.

Fixed that for you.

But hey, this here's CO country. RAW it is, so Aptitude Kukris it will be.

Well, this is only true for TO.
If you are optimizing for a real game, you have to consider stuff like this. Making an entire build focused around a weapon enhancement that you know should not work like that is a tad cheesy.
#12
empirate
Mar 27, 2010 17:20:22 You're right. Yet there's a lot of stuff out there that is RAW as well as RAI, but still wasn't ever a good idea on the designers' part. This stuff we know is overpowered, but it is still a frequent part of builds around here. We know most DMs simply don't understand how good these things are. And we use them regardless: Divine Metamagic. Incantatrix (3.5 version). Splitting bows. Polymorph Any Object. Candle of Invocation. Abrupt Jaunt. Fleshraker Dinosaur Animal Companion and Wildshape option. And many more.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thehat Mar 16, 2010 18:43:20	Right. Need to figure out how to build this thing. It's a level 14 character for a campaign that's just starting out. So far I figure Rogue 5/Fighter 2/Nightsong Enforcer 1/Assassin 6, and would continue on in the Assassin Progression. I also kind of want to make this guy a dual mace user, fixing the issue of weapon finesse with making them large feycraft weapons, and equipping Strongarm Bracers to free up an extra feat (due to solving weapon finesse). So I reckon Combat reflexes (for the Lightning Maces feat), TWF, Improved TWF at the minimum?
#2 garindal Mar 16, 2010 20:07:02	erdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just a thought, but do you really want maces? You could use the Adaptive weapon ability (I think its called) and use something like kukris instead, for a better crit range since with lightning maces you only have to threaten a critical hit, not confirm it.
#3 NiteCyper Mar 16, 2010 20:22:49	Option 1: Focus on the TWF feat tree (and precision damage), ditching maces. Option 2: Focus on TWF Mace-onry, ditching precision damage.
#4 thehat Mar 17, 2010 13:57:19	Option 1: Focus on the TWF feat tree (and precision damage), ditching maces. Option 2: Focus on TWF Mace-onry, ditching precision damage. Hm... well, what would be better? Right now it's a toss-up between maces or kukri knives, and any one of them wouldf work out just fine.
#5 empirate Mar 20, 2010 3:56:24	Since Lightning Maces requires you to generate Threats, you'd be best off with dual Kukris and some way of getting an Improved Critical effect with them (most likely a Scabbard of Keen Edges). The Kukris would have to have the Aptitude enchantment, of course. Works nicely with LM and can set you up for a veritable storm of attacks. Forget bigger weapon sizes, the paltry extra damage isn't worth it. Instead, focus on precision damage. Meaning you need Deathstrike Bracers instead of Strongarm, as well as those nifty weapon augment crystals. Still, you'll need to have a fallback in case of elementals crashing your party. UMD comes to mind...
#6 thehat Mar 21, 2010 0:09:01	Since Lightning Maces requires you to generate Threats, you'd be best off with dual Kukris and some way of getting an Improved Critical effect with them (most likely a Scabbard of Keen Edges). The Kukris would have to have the Aptitude enchantment, of course. Works nicely with LM and can set you up for a veritable storm of attacks. Forget bigger weapon sizes, the paltry extra damage isn't worth it. Instead, focus on precision damage. Meaning you need Deathstrike Bracers instead of Strongarm, as well as those nifty weapon augment crystals. Still, you'll need to have a fallback in case of elementals crashing your party. UMD comes to mind... Where would I find the Aptitude weapon enchantment? Also, does LM = lightning maces like last time, or...? Also, the bigger weapon size was just in order to make them Feycraft and make them count towards Weapon Finesse without loosing damage.
#7 empirate Mar 23, 2010 9:20:30	LM is Lightning Maces, yes. I forget where the Aptitude enchantment is located. Basically, it allows you to apply all weapon-specific feats to the enchanted weapon. Meaning you can apply the effects of Weapon Focus: Light Mace and Lightning Maces to your two +1 Aptitude Kukris. Losing a single point of base damage on the weapon shouldn't really bother you. Your damage output comes from precision damage, not base weapon damage. This is the reason why Pixie rogues are so nice: even though they can only wield teeny tiny weapons, they still deal the same sneak attack dice as anybody else, regardless of size. But because of their invisibility, they deal those dice much more consistently. For classes, I recommend Swashbuckler4/Rogue16, and the Daring Outlaw feat. This allows you a nice blend of HP, +16 BAB, and full +10d6 Sneak Attack as well as Int to damage. You lose a few skillpoints compared to straight Rogue, but still outclass your own build idea in this department. You also gain two Rogue special abilities, which are very nice. Assassin levels provide a few spells, but don't do much for you otherwise. Fighter 2 is meh, only there for the feats. Nightsong Enforcer is a nice dip for +1d6 and +1 BAB, but with Daring Outlaw, superfluous.
#8 snakeman830 Mar 23, 2010 11:03:37	Aptitude weapon enhancement is from Tome of Battle.
#9 true_shinken Mar 23, 2010 18:31:28	Aptitude weapon enhancement is from Tome of Battle. It is also highly debatle if it allows stuff like Lightning Mace to work, since the Warblade similar ability does nothing of the sort. Probably not intended, RAW it works, your DM might ban it on sight.
#10 empirate Mar 24, 2010 12:15:18	It is also highly debatable if it allows stuff like Lightning Mace to work, since the Warblade similar ability does nothing of the sort. Probably not intended, RAW it works, your DM might should ban it on sight. Fixed that for you. But hey, this here's CO country. RAW it is, so Aptitude Kukris it will be.
#11 true_shinken Mar 27, 2010 9:05:58	It is also highly debatable if it allows stuff like Lightning Mace to work, since the Warblade similar ability does nothing of the sort. Probably not intended, RAW it works, your DM might should ban it on sight. Fixed that for you. But hey, this here's CO country. RAW it is, so Aptitude Kukris it will be. Well, this is only true for TO. If you are optimizing for a real game, you have to consider stuff like this. Making an entire build focused around a weapon enhancement that you know should not work like that is a tad cheesy.
#12 empirate Mar 27, 2010 17:20:22	You're right. Yet there's a lot of stuff out there that is RAW as well as RAI, but still wasn't ever a good idea on the designers' part. This stuff we know is overpowered, but it is still a frequent part of builds around here. We know most DMs simply don't understand how good these things are. And we use them regardless: Divine Metamagic. Incantatrix (3.5 version). Splitting bows. Polymorph Any Object. Candle of Invocation. Abrupt Jaunt. Fleshraker Dinosaur Animal Companion and Wildshape option. And many more.