well, thanks to complete warrior, theres now a rogue that can do it better, and its completely legal
Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5
BAB: 19
Feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Rapid Fire
Master Thrower Abilities: Weak Spot, Two with One Blow, Palm Throw
Primary Hand: 19/14/9/4
Off Hand: 19/14/9
Rapid Fire: 19
-4 on all of them due to rapid fire and twf penalties
total: 8 attacks, all ranged touch attacks
palm throw allows 2 daggers per throw
total: 16 daggers thrown
for an additional -4 to hit on each attack, you can hit two adjacent foes
so thats 2 enemies taking 16 daggers per round, assuming you make them returning
damage is 1d4 + 2(weapon specialization) + Int bonus (from swashbuckler) + 1 (point blank shot) + 1(assuming daggers are only +1 returning) per dagger
Int bonus should be at least 5, to take full advantage of Invisible Blade
1d4+2+5+1+1 = 1d4+9
2d4+18 per attack (average 22 per attack)
16d4+144 (average 176 damage per round to 2 targets)
not bad for just daggers
more attacks than the machine gun monk
more damage than the machine gun monk
more legal than the machine gun monk
That adds a sizable amount to the damage. And with the "feint as a free action" nonsense that is the Invisible Blade, it would be fairly easy to deny the enemy their Dex bonus.
Edit: Next time I will think, then post.
although its very likely that all your melee attacks can be bluffed, so he does get sneak attack in melee even when not flanking, which is useful
I'm not familiar with the rules of returning weapons. How quickly do they return? It seems to me that even if they returned immediately upon impact, that you would have to have at least 4....2 for each hand....correct?
--Impeesa--
i guess i could see using an arm to hold all the daggers but that would disallow the use of the TWF feats because the character would be using one hand after the first round to attack. still, 16 attacks in the first round isnt bad at all.
--Impeesa--
this is cool but how do you catch all the returning daggers? are you assuming that you will be re-sheathing the ones you catch as they return?
hmm, well, I kinda figured that since he can palm throw the daggers, hes hopefully figured out some way to catch them all
but yeah, I guess I should figure that out
of course, he could also not have them returning, and just go straight to melee, where he is still competent, and maybe have the daggers be explosive
explosive is from complete warrior, and if it hits, it causes an explosion, dealing 2d4 damage
so, 2 daggers, each hitting two targets, for an extra 8d4 damage to each of them, 8 attacks, thats an extra 64d4 damage
besides that, im not entirely sure you will get 16 freeactions per round...that will depend on the DM, i would outlaw it and limit it...prob to like 4 or 6...
you need to use a full attack to get all your extra attacks
and there is no rule about not being able to use more than one feat for a full attack action
I just read the 3.5PHB on both feats and granted, rapid fire requires a full attack, but it also says that for you to get all your additional attacks (including those from high base attack bonus and twf) you have to use a full attack.
Going by your reasoning of not being able to use twf with rapid fire, then you would also not be able to use your extra attacks that you get from high base attack bonus with rapid fire either.
If that were true, then rapid fire would become a useless feat after your base attack bonus got high enough even if you're not using twf.
I may be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.
one problem more with this strange build is that you can't use rapid shot with daggers....its not a ranged weapon... ;)
about the 2wf and rapid shot being used together, that may very well be impossible, but the reason isn't that they both require a full-round action, because they don't. All they require is that you use a full-attack action. Nowhere in any book does it say that, if you have more than one ability that you can use as part of a full-attack action, you have to choose which one to use.
i dont agree with your way of feat interpretation. your way would dictate that any feat with similar requirements could be used together. for example, if you have two feats that require a standard action to use then you can use them both....or partial action, or move action for that matter. there is a rule of like bonuses not stacking. that same rule should apply to feats as well. im sure there are arguements to what im saying (i can think of some as im typing this) but you get my point.
the feats you speak of "cost" an action of that type to use. rapid shot and the 2wf feats, on the other hand, require that you use a full-attack, which "costs" a full-round action, but the feats themselves have no action costs, only attack penalties. you can use them as part of any full-attack, and nowhere does it say you can't use more than one of them together.
in fact, since imp2wf only mentions the new attack you get (i think), and not the one from 2wf, your logic would lead one to believe that they couldn't use both of those feats in one full-attack.
without my phb, i'm at somewhat of a disadvantage here, but i would bet that those feats don't actually have the words "as a full-round action" in them. what they probably say is something like "when you make a full-attack." someone correct me, though, if i'm wrong.
Originally posted by Lord Likk
master thrower requires the feat, man.
Actually it doesn't ... :P It requires Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus (any thrown weapon).
Rapid fire is used for ranged attacks.
Just because you are using the same weapon for both applications doesn't mean you get both benefits.
thx
-warlock
Caught me off guard that they would change that till I realised throwing pretty much needed a boost anyways.
Oh well carry on.
From the SRD:
MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet.
and
RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
and
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.
Now with manyshot it can not be used in a full attack because the must be used with a standard action. For both Rapid Shot and Two weapon fighting it reads, "You get an extra attack" not that As a full round attack you may make an extra attack.
So there is nothing (aside from attack penalties) preventing you from using the two together.
In other news I was interested if someone actually had a viable level by level build of this guy? If not I'll start on one myself.
Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5
1 Rogue 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
2 Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse
3 Swashbuckler 2: Weapon Focus-Dagger
4 Fighter 1: Far Shot
5 Swashbuckler 3
6 Invisible Blade 1: Precise Shot
7 Master Thrower 1: Quick Draw, Palm Throw
8 Invisible Blade 2
9 Invisible Blade 3: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Master Thrower 2
11 Master Thrower 3: Two with One Blow
12 Invisible Blade 4: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13 Invisible Blade 5
14 Master Thrower 4
15 Master Thrower 5: Rapid Shot, Improved Critical-Dagger, Weak Spot
16 Fighter 2: FIGHTER FEAT
17 Rogue 2
18 Fighter 3: FEAT
19 Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization-Dagger
20 Rogue 3
I think its good up through 15th level, and then it breaks down a little
ok, heres the build that I had in mind ...
Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5
You'd be better off with this variation:
Rog3 / Ftr2 / GuildThief4 / InvisibleBlade5 / MasterThrower5
1. BAB +17 in 19 levels (20th Level = many variable options)
2. +7d6 SA
3. 4 Bonus Ftr Feats (2 of which must be WpnFinesse & WF: Dagger)
Tons of IB & MT goodies
That 20th level could be anything - Barbarian, Rogue, GuildThief (another +1d6 SA), Soldier of Light, Knight of the Middle Circle (+2 Combat Sense), etc.
XO,
Snow
1. my build is completely 3.5, so I wouldnt have DMs ranting about 3.0 vs 3.5
2. my build ends up with 19 BAB at 20th level, only 5d6 SA, but also adds +2 +Int bonus to damage for each dagger, and with 16 daggers, that adds up, especially since the Int bonus should be at least +5, to take full advantage of the Invisible Blade's AC bonus. so it trades 2d6 SA in melee for 7 attacks, for the most part, for +7 damage (which would be the average for SA) to melee and ranged attacks
Damn, I coulda sworn they just appeared back in your hand. :/ Checked both versions of the DMG, you are indeed right... now I'm trying to remember where I would have read that or gotten that idea somehow...
--Impeesa--
Maybe you have read some Drizzt books, in them it says that aegis fang reappear in wulfgars hand, and in silver marches it says it's a returning weapon...
1. my build is completely 3.5, so I wouldnt have DMs ranting about 3.0 vs 3.5
Backwards compatible ... Yadda, yadda, yadda.
******
Also, I understand the reasoning behind your build structure (and a good one it is). But your thread title is a bit misleading. Only 8 of your 20 levels are Rogue-like (Rogue & IB), as Swashbuckler really does not have core characteristics of a Rogue. Your other 12 levels are basically Fighter in concept. Maybe that's nitpicking (sorry about that, if that's the case), but I just wanted to offer you a more Rogue-heavy build alternative. Especially since I don't know how much emphasis you place on Rogue skills.
Best regards,
Snow
and youre right about the less rogue-ish part. it was originally almost identical to yours, although I keep forgetting guild thief, so I think it was just more rogue levels
and your build is perfect for a more rogue-ish character
I think the only skill that really needs to be maxed is Bluff
and now that you mention it, I might end up trading the last 5 levels for guild thief levels.
note to self: remember guild thief, remember guild thief
because the last 5 levels just give me +1D6 SA and Weapon Specialization
as long as guild thief only has skill requirements, which I'm pretty sure it does
so, rogue 1/swashbuckler 3/fighter 1/master thrower 5/invisible blade 5/guild thief 5
yes, I think that is much better
If you are a bit large on the rule interpertation you can see it as counting for all range attack, also throw weapons...
Just for the ekstra damage, since you get a bonus to hit from Weak Spot...
anders rasmussen, power attack can't be used with light weapons in 3.5, which include daggers and kukris unless this mystery race turns out to be tiny (and has +0 ecl).
Originally posted by Lord Likk
desolatecity, what race is this build? what is its favored class? if it isn't swashbuckler or any, you've got an xp penalty on your hands in that latest build.
anders rasmussen, power attack can't be used with light weapons in 3.5, which include daggers and kukris unless this mystery race turns out to be tiny (and has +0 ecl).
He said Power Shot, not Power Attack.
Originally posted by scalpel
two weapon fighting is used for Melee attacks.
Rapid fire is used for ranged attacks.
Just because you are using the same weapon for both applications doesn't mean you get both benefits.
From the SRD section on TWF:
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light
weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
desolatecity, what race is this build? what is its favored class? if it isn't swashbuckler or any, you've got an xp penalty on your hands in that latest build.
Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5
emphasis mine
the guy is still human, it hasnt changed
if you look at the original build I posted vs the guild thief one, the first 15 levels are the same, you just have to tack on 5 levels of guild thief
so if the guy wasnt human, you would get an xp penalty anyways for the first 15 levels
well, half elf would work too, but, an extra feat is so much nicer
Human Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5/Guild Thief 5
1 Rogue 1: Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
2 Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse
3 Swashbuckler 2: Weapon Focus-Dagger
4 Fighter 1: Far Shot
5 Swashbuckler 3
6 Invisible Blade 1: Precise Shot
7 Master Thrower 1: Quick Draw, Palm Throw
8 Invisible Blade 2
9 Invisible Blade 3: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Master Thrower 2
11 Master Thrower 3: Two with One Blow
12 Invisible Blade 4: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13 Invisible Blade 5
14 Master Thrower 4
15 Master Thrower 5: Rapid Shot, Improved Critical-Dagger, Weak Spot
16 Guild Thief 1
17 Guild Thief 2: BONUS FEAT
18 Guild Thief 3: FEAT
19 Guild Thief 4: BONUS FEAT
20 Guild Thief 5
anybody have any ideas for the last 3 feats? especially considering the limit of guild thief feats
The only 2 feats for your GT levels you should be thinking about (for your case-specific build) are Weapon Finesse & Wpn Focus: Dagger. The GT feat list is very limited, and those 2 fit your build objectives to the "T". Your current build takes Weapon Finesse early on, which really negates a good reason for taking GT levels later on.
I'm also concerned that you do not have Evasion in this build. A really critical survival mechanism for a Rogue.
A great feat for this build is also Expert Tactician. The revised version in Song & Silence.
I'd write more, but I'm headed out.
XO,
Snow
Thanks in advance...
just wanted to clear it up. ranged feats can be used with weapons that have a range increment.
EDIT: for spelling
I still think the idea is quite cumbersome, requiring a character to carry around so many daggers and draw them so quickly.
Originally posted by DesolateCity
anybody have any ideas for the last 3 feats? especially considering the limit of guild thief feats [/b]
how about mobility for one?
I still think the idea is quite cumbersome, requiring a character to carry around so many daggers and draw them so quickly.
um, thats what QUICK DRAW and Palm Throw are for
Palm Throw allows you to throw 2 daggers in one hand
and, its only 16 daggers. go look at the picture of the master thrower in complete warrior
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75419.jpg
dont tell me that 16 daggers is that cumbersome after seeing all that
the point is that the character can throw a whole lot of daggers rather quickly, like a machine gun...hence the title, although as snow pointed out, its not much of a rogue build anymore
I also hope you're taking encomberance into account and carefully tracking your dagger stock.
Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / Invisible Blade 5 / Master Thrower 3 / Guild Thief 3
(total levels is 19)
No XP penalty
gives:
7d6 Sneak
17 BaB
Guild thief feat: Weapon Focus Dagger
Master thrower tricks: Palm throw, two in one blow
Improved Evasion from Rogue + Master thrower
Thoughts anyone? - been thinking on last class level, Rogue 4 seems nice (Would give Uncanny dodge, cant be fanked). But then I'd go into XP penalty again. Anyone know a better Idea?
If carrying around too many daggers is looking like a problem, then you could take some levels in Psion or Psionic Warrior, and use the Trigger Power feat with Call Weaponry power.
Then, you could just manafest a couple dozen for free right when you leave town or enter the cave, etc.
Not to mention, one Mind Blast will subdue many different enemies :D
-Robert
and if it's allowed, i'd try to use the targetteer fighter variant from Dragon#310 to add dex to damage instead of str when you're not using the palm throw, but that's just so cheesy...
just my 2 cps...
i was working on a build similar to this last night that included ranger levels to get twf as opposed to selecting the twf feat tree. you get a favoured enemy, track and wild empathy out of it as well. the only trouble i could see with the build was my obscenely low will save which worked out to be only +3 or +4 at 20th level. i don't really feel the need to post the entire build, it's virtually the same as here but i can if ppl want to see what i've got in mind.
(edited for content before eeeeeeveryone sees what a bonehead i was)
Yes, they return at the start of the next round, but that is an abstraction.
Just like my character does not run 30', stop, wait for everyone else to move, then move 30' again. Instead it is a smooth 60' run that is just broken up in the rule abstractions.
So, if you are throwing 16 returning daggers a round, the 16 daggers would be returning just as fast as you threw them. Thus, they are all available for throwing again (kind of like juggling with a partner).
Now, when you stop using full attack actions to keep throwing those daggers as fast as they are returning, then you end up with a pile at your feet.
in the first post it listed "1d4+2+5+1+1 = 1d4+9" as the damage per dagger thrown, so that makes an average of like 11.5 (right?).
suppose you are fighting a demon or something. even the CR 11 and 13s or so have DR 10/good, or the higher up you go its 10/good and cold iron, or 15/good and cold iron (balor i believe). assuming the dagger is only a +1 returning dagger and you go up against something with DR 10/good. that makes average damage drop to 1.5 =\
now i suppose you could walk around with potions of silversheen or bless weapon to make it good.. but what about creatuers with cold iron, adamantine, just plain natural DR of X/-, etc. also, i dont know how your DM would do it, but i dont know if you could smear one oil for all 16 daggers. i think that would be a little much. you could add the weapon mod of holy (or unholy, axiomatic, anarchic) and that would take care of some of the DR some of the time and up the dmg too. the downside i see to that is each dagger would be a +4 mod. that makes each dagger 32,302gp multiply that by 16 and you've got 516,832 worth of weapons.. thats pretty steep.
just a thought
Originally posted by Oakspar77777
So, if you are throwing 16 returning daggers a round, the 16 daggers would be returning just as fast as you threw them. Thus, they are all available for throwing again (kind of like juggling with a partner).
Now, when you stop using full attack actions to keep throwing those daggers as fast as they are returning, then you end up with a pile at your feet.
Why not create bracers that produce non-magical daggers each time you go to make a throwing motion. A dagger appears in your hand. Then create gloves that enchant these daggers (similar to a bow that enchants its arrows).
Viola....anything your character throws from his hands can become enchanted how you would like them to be. WIth the dagger maker on your wrists you have an unlimited supply of daggers
-A
IB gives SA, Int to AC and Bleeding Wound to this build.
I'm sure that can be made up for by taking 5 Ninja or something of the sort and using the fact that Shuriken are enchanted as ammo, thus making +1 Wounding Shuriken much cheaper.
96 Shuriken wouldn't be hard to hold on your body. Just throw off your cloak at the beginning of battle.
(Qaetar)
Originally posted by AviLazar
Why not create bracers that produce non-magical daggers each time you go to make a throwing motion. A dagger appears in your hand. Then create gloves that enchant these daggers (similar to a bow that enchants its arrows).
Sorry, can't do that. As neat as it would be, bracer and glove slots are exclusive, they can't be worn at the same time. However, if you came up with some other item to do the same thing (major creation, Wiz/Sor 5), like a hat or belt or something, you could take advantage of quick draw liberally.
And DesolateCity, if you still need those last three feats, you oughta aim for evasion. Your character has some rogueishness spun into it, and any rogue worth it's salt should have evasion, if not imp. evasion.
Originally posted by Shovel-Whipped
Sorry, can't do that. As neat as it would be, bracer and glove slots are exclusive, they can't be worn at the same time. However, if you came up with some other item to do the same thing (major creation, Wiz/Sor 5), like a hat or belt or something, you could take advantage of quick draw liberally.
What I meant - one arm item (wristband of some sort) and one glove item.
Gloves to enchant the item, wristband to produce the item.
-A
From the 3.5 SRD, MagicItemsI.rtf
MAGIC ITEMS ON THE BODY
...
• One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists
• One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands
...
(Qaetar)
I love this template btw i would just hate to play it from lvl 1 hehe at what lvl would it start to get tough?
Originally posted by TaskMaster
whats the point of Swashbuckler? why not take more into fighter for more feats or something?
Int to damage.
Originally posted by Khazra
Do only throwers count as machine guns? And what would happen if your daggers were returning daggers of speed? would u get an extra attack with every dagger every round, ie u throw them & by the time u have thrown the others there back and u get to throw them again?
Yes, only throwers, or archers who somehow get to fire more than 5 arrows in a round.
As stated in speed, "this benfit is not cumulative w/ similar effects, such as a haste spell". and it says "may make [1] one extra attack". Therefore, no matter how many items of speed you ahve, in a full attack, you get !1! extra attack. Very liberal interpretations of the rules, ro a lenient DM, can allow 1 per weapon, but w/ liek 10 speed weapons, and a quick draw feat, that get's realllly stupid. So more or less, for blanace? no. Thematics? No. Rules? No.
Addressing the Build:
Guild Thief still exists, but is now updated in Players Guild to Faerun as Shadow Thief of Amn. (identical abilites, new name). I’m not sure if this can/should be exploited, as nothing says guild thief no longer exists… but taking the class twice would be rather redundant and not too useful, right?
Strongheart Hafling/Human + Ftr2/Swashbuclker 3/Master Thrower 3 is more or less the base. (I recommend the hafling, because of the size mod to AC, attack rolls, the hafling bonus to ranged attacks, and STR doesn’t count for anything in these builds, while DEX is most important, and Int 2nd most.)
That's 8 levels, and 12 to play around w/. You have all the basics (Quick draw, Evasion, full BAB, Int to damage, 2 fighter feats Palm Throw, and Two with One Blow), and 12 levels to play around with.
The remainder seems to be the real debate.
These are the currently proposed builds:
Desolate City (DC)
v1
Human Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5
v2
Human Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5/Guild Thief 5
JoostBujis (JB)
Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / Invisible Blade 5 / Master Thrower 3 / Guild Thief 3
Snow Savant (SS)
Rog3 / Ftr2 / GuildThief4 / InvisibleBlade5 / MasterThrower5
All human builds assume a DEX and INT of 20, and CHA of 18 by 20th level (is this too much to assume w/ easily avalible +6 to stat magic items?). Hafling builds assume DEX 22, because of +2 racial bonus. No magic dagger are taken into account (besides stat boosters), as the question as to weather you can have a continuous line of returning +1 daggers is still iffy, and more or less a DM’s call.
DC v1
Base + Rogue 3/Fighter 2/ Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 2
+11BAB, +SA 5d6 Feint as Free Action, Weak Spot, Weapon Spec.
Attacks: 19 BAB+5 Dex +1 Foc -2Two Weapon Fighting -2 Rapid Shot = +21x3 /+16x2/+11x2/6x1.(Note: Touch Attacks)
Damage (Normal/+Sneak): 2x (d4+5Int+2Spec +1 Point Blank Shot) =21 damage per attack(2 daggers)/+17.5 for SA
Average Damage Normal: 308 Average Immune to Crits: 88
DC v2
Base -1Ftr + Rog1/IB1/MT2/GT5
+9 BAB, +SA 7d6
Attacks 17BAB + 5 Dex + 1 Foc -2 Twf -2 Rs = +19x3 /+14x2/+9x2/4x1
Damage (Normal/+Sneak): 2x (d4+5Int+1PBS) =17 damage per attack/+24.5 for SA
Average Damage Normal: 332 Average Immune to Crits: 56
JB
Base + Rogue 3 / Invisible Blade 5 / Guild Thief 4 (added the last level, guild thief, for the bonus feat, as any of the others did nothing at all.)
BAB 18 +SA 7d6
Attacks 18BAB + 5 Dex + 1 Foc -2 Twf -2 Rs = +20x3 /+15x2/+10x2/5x1
Damage (Normal/+Sneak): 2x (d4+5Int+1PBS) =17 damage per attack/+24.5 for SA
Average Damage Normal: 332 Average Immune to Crits: 56
SS Build
w/o the Int to damage, it really falls behind on the other builds in damage (10 points per “attack”, making it 90 points a round behind), and same SA damage, with no really noticeable improvements.
It seems to be that the descicison between builds is based on more SA damage, or more damage through having weapon spec. This is a BIG descision: Most things are not immune to sneak attacks, but there is a big difference in damage if they are.
DCv1 and JB’s build are the most competitive, DC v2 is weaker than either.
What can be improved? Using a hafling, preferably Strong Heart, would give another +3 to all hit statistics (+1 small, +1 Hafling, +1 for +2dex) and another +1 AC and inish. So:
My Build v1
Strongheart Hafling Ftr4/SwB3/MaT 5/InB 5/Clr 1/Shadow Thief of Amn 1/Guild Thief 1
This exploits the new class (Shadow Thief of Amn) nicely.
BAB 17 +SA 5d6
Attacks 17BAB + 6 Dex + 1 Foc +1 small +1 hafling -2 Twf -2 Rs = +22x3 /+17x2/+12x2/7x1
Damage (Normal/+Sneak): 2x (d4+5Int+2spec+1 PBS+4 Divine Might) = 29 damage per attack/ + 17.5 for SA
Average Damage Normal: 372 Average Immune to Crits: 152
(Note: If the DM don't allow the SToA and Guild Theif cheese, take another level of cleric or guild theif, and the average damge drops to 344, and BAB goes up by 1. )
Unless I missed something, this is higher accuracy, more consistent damage, and more damage vs opponents w/ SA immunity. Also, a better chance of bypassing damage reduction, as your average damage per dagger is 14.5. makign non-masterwork normal daggers bypass all but the strongest DR.
So, assuming you have a bandelero of normal daggers, roll 2 14’s and a 12 for ability scores, choose Strongheart hafling, and get a +6 Dex, +6 Int, and +6 Cha, through some combination of magic items and ability boosts, you can do this. It's a little feat intensive, but not relaly that bad.
So, anyone have any ideas on how to deal w/ bypassing the DR issue, or the infinite stream or returning daggers issue?
If your Dm allows it, having bracers enchanted w/ Major Creation lets it make adamantite, cold iron, and silver daggers. Also, goves that work jsut liek a bow for ranged combat purposes woudl allow you to solve the holy/magic components.
Human Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5
could someone set up a by lvl chart thing i wouldnt want to be gimped on my way to 20.
Also not sure if people have answered this but someone said you would need like 14free actions to draw the daggers per round. Dunno if that was answer but in the quickdraw feat you can use your arm as a weapon and draw throwing weps like ammo of a bow just a fyi.
the basic idea was using monk's greater flurry with a 16 bab and greater twf to throw a bunch of shurikens
but I wrote it before complete warrior came out
and it was also unclear if flurry of blows stacked with twf
but now that we know that it does, I think I will try and redo the build
monk 11/fighter 8/master thrower 1
thats the completely unoptimized version, because I am throwing it together off the top of my head
required feats
twf
itwf
gtwf
pbs
precise shot
wf(shuriken)
bab 17(4 attacks)
gtwf(3 attacks)
greater flurry(2 attacks)
thats 9 attacks, 2 shuriken each, for 18 shuriken
but I thought I had gotten it up to 11 attacks before
I dont remember how though
I dont remember anything about wand use
so it wasnt my version of the Machine Gun Monk
maybe someone elses?
Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Invisible_Blade5/Master_thrower5
1 rog: Far shot, PBS, SA: 1d6
2 rog: *evasion
3 sb: Precise shot, *weapon finesse
4 sb: *grace +1
5 sb: *insightful strike
6 rog: WF dagger, SA: 2d6
7 ib: *unfettered defense, DSA: 3d6
8 mt: *quick draw, *palm throw
9 ib: twf, *bleeding wound
10 ib: *uncanny feint, DSA: 4d6
11 ib: *feint mastery
12 ib: itwf, *uncanny feint, DSA: 5d6
13 mt: *Improved evasion
14 mt: *defensive throw
15 mt: gtwf, *snatch arrows
16 mt: *critical throw, *weak spot
Thanks,
47
What do you think of:
01º Rog 1
02º Rog 1 / SwB 1
03º Rog 1 / SwB 2
04º Rog 1 / SwB 3
05º Rog 2 / SwB 3
06º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 1
07º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2
08º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 1
09º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 1 / InB 1
10º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 1 / InB 2
11º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 2 / InB 2
12º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 3 / InB 2
13º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 3 / InB 3
14º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 3 / InB 4
15º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 4 / InB 4
16º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 5 / InB 4
17º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 2 / MaT 5 / InB 5
18º Rog 2 / SwB 3 / GuT 3 / MaT 5 / InB 5
Thanks in advance!
Sabis you calculated the damage for the different builds. I think you missed something. The figures for the Immune to Crits should be way lower, because the Swashbucklers ability to add the intelligence bonus to damage does not apply if the target is immune to crits.
I'm still looking for a solution to this. Monsters with high damage reduction and/or immunity to crits an really riun your day.
Walmar
Originally posted by Sabis
Average Damage Normal: 308 Average Immune to Crits: 88
Average Damage Normal: 332 Average Immune to Crits: 56
Average Damage Normal: 332 Average Immune to Crits: 56
Average Damage Normal: 372 Average Immune to Crits: 152
Because feint is a melee action, how can someone get sneaky, after the first round?(catching opponents flat footed)
you can't use TWF and rapid shot in the same round...both require a full-attack action and you only got 1 of those per round....
besides that, im not entirely sure you will get 16 freeactions per round...that will depend on the DM, i would outlaw it and limit it...prob to like 4 or 6...
When the archer shoots his volley after volley of arrow hes reaching and socketing a arrow so why can we pull 16 dagger from our belt?
Ive seen build where archer get 10+ attack a round
Swashbuckler 3 / Rogue 3 / Pious Templar 4 / Master Thrower 5 / Whisper Knife 5
...'course I'd like to add invisible blade 5, tempest 5, wk 10, etc to it
edit: and also I'd like to be able to qualify for PT at 7th level with only cross-class ranks in know(religion) :surrender
two weapon fighting is used for Melee attacks.
Rapid fire is used for ranged attacks.
Just because you are using the same weapon for both applications doesn't mean you get both benefits.
That is the one arguement I have seen in this whole thread against this working that actually makes sense. I was actually starting the think it would work, until this post. Because as was pointed out, here as I have seen argued many times in the past just because two things require a full attack action to use, does not mean they can't be used together. As was said, in each of those cases it does not COST a full round attack, but just requires that a full round attack is performed. As was also said to say you couldn't use them both for that reason would be the same as saying you couldn't get all of your extra attacks if you used TWF.
But this post is exactly correct. TWF is the ability to use 2 melee weapons in combat to get an extra attack. Rapid shot was meant to balance that for ranged weapons, by allowing ranged weapons, which typically require 2 hands, to get an extra attack too, given the same penalties. It is essentially the same Feat, with just two different ways to use it, and that is why they can't work together. This is why I really always thought D&D needed to allow for more generality for its definitions. It could then have the Feat, worded the same way, and have as options, additional Feats for different uses with a different definition.
A.
But this post is exactly correct. TWF is the ability to use 2 melee weapons in combat to get an extra attack. Rapid shot was meant to balance that for ranged weapons, by allowing ranged weapons, which typically require 2 hands, to get an extra attack too, given the same penalties. It is essentially the same Feat, with just two different ways to use it, and that is why they can't work together. This is why I really always thought D&D needed to allow for more generality for its definitions. It could then have the Feat, worded the same way, and have as options, additional Feats for different uses with a different definition.
A.
This is an incorrect assessment of Two Weapon Fighting (The action and the feat) and Rapid Shot. Two-Weapon Fighting in 3.0 used to apply only to melee weapons. In 3.5, it now applies to melee or ranged weapons. Here are the appropriate rules:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
As noted, the two-weapon fighting action (Under combat) never mentions melee or ranged. It applies to any weapons you wield. In addition, it specifically mentions using two-weapon fighting for thrown (ranged) weapons. The Two-Weapon Fighting Feat does not mention melee weapons at all either, and applies equally well to ranged weapons (usually thrown). Therefore, Rapid Shot and fighting with two-weapons do indeed stack and provide a mimimum of 2 extra attacks with a ranged weapon if used in that way.
An alternative approach to this is to use hand crossbows and rapid reload (hand crossbow) which will both also function with rapid shot and the twf tree. Not quite as good in some ways, but you can do the bow/arrow magic stacking thing.
As noted, the two-weapon fighting action (Under combat) never mentions melee or ranged. It applies to any weapons you wield. In addition, it specifically mentions using two-weapon fighting for thrown (ranged) weapons. The Two-Weapon Fighting Feat does not mention melee weapons at all either, and applies equally well to ranged weapons (usually thrown). Therefore, Rapid Shot and fighting with two-weapons do indeed stack and provide a mimimum of 2 extra attacks with a ranged weapon if used in that way.
Yes, so you could use TWF for a thrown weapon. Rapid Shot on the other hand applies to ranged weapons, not melee weapons, that can be thrown. It applies to Bows, and such.
Wouldn't it be possible to have +2 returning splitting daggers? Sure, they'd cost a lot more but the damage that you'd be able to produce would be.. well, double.
Also, from the best magical weapon abilities thread, there's:
+1:
Teleporting (eXpsi pg. 167): Returning, but better!
there's also some feats that help with SA damage, i'm away from books right now so I can't give a great response, just a moderate one.
Yes, so you could use TWF for a thrown weapon. Rapid Shot on the other hand applies to ranged weapons, not melee weapons, that can be thrown. It applies to Bows, and such.
Actually this is not true. Ranged weapons include both Thrown Weapons and Projectile Weapons (bows, crossbows, etc). You use Rapid Shot with Ranged weapons, not projectile weapons only, therefore it applies to anything listed as a Ranged (Thrown or Projectile) Weapon. It is also useful to point out that Point Blank and Precise Shot apply to thrown weapons as well.
here are the relevant passages in the SRD:
RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.
Projectile Weapons: Light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons.
Halfling
3rog /3swsh /5master thrower /9 whisperknife
1 Rogue (halfling racial substitution): WF Dagger
1 rog/ 1swsh: weapon finesse (free feat)
1 rog/ 2swsh: Pointblank shot
3rog(halfling racial substitution)/ 3swsh: precise shot
3rog/ 3swsh/ 1 master thrower: Quick draw (free feat)
3rog/ 3swsh/ 3 master thrower: two weapon fighting
3rog/ 3swsh/ 4 master thrower: snatch arrows (free feat)
3rog/ 3swsh/ 5 master thrower: Improved critical (free feat)
3 rog/ 3swsh/ 5 master thrower/ 1 whisper knife: Improved two weapon fighting, rapid shot (free feat)
3 rog/ 3swsh/ 5 master thrower/ 4 whisper knife: Greater two weapon fighting
3 rog/ 3swsh/ 5 master thrower/ 7 whisper knife: Hmmm, I don't know what feat to choose for this one, suggestions anyone?
Benefits:
19 Bab
7d6 ranged sneak attack
5d6 melee sneak attack
touch attacks for all thrown attacks
16 ranged attacks each round
int to damage
flank from 10ft range
improved evasion
improved uncanny dodge
+10 ft movement
No Aoos when using ranged weapons
Reroll reflex saves twice
wearable armor
Drawbacks:
No will save worth speaking
ditto fort save
High end abilities come in later (whisperknife levels take until lvl 20)
weapons are small, 1d3 instead of 1d4
no int to ac from invis blade
needs so many daggers its not funny
roleplaying a whisperknife tends to lend itself to certain moral ambiguities
prototype00
P.s. Swashbuckler's insightful strike is ambiguous, but it applies to all finessable weapons as stated so until they errata it, its okay in my book. If you're good at spearing a kidney, you're good at spearing a kidney.
P.p.s.s. Rapid shot is totally okay for thrown weapons as well as bows and arrows, whisperknife grants it for all thrown light weapons for crying out loud.
the oalm trow dont allow you to apli precision bonification(like int bonus) two both shot see erratas
The Palm Throw doesn't allow you to apply precision bonuses (like Intelligence bonus) to both shots. See erratas
This translation brought to you by Lying-Converters
prototype00
Perform: Juggling
Solved!
(ok, maybe not, but I thought it funny)
With a cursory run of the books I've got handy, I can see. .
Scout 13/Highland Stalker 2/Rogue 1/Whisperknife 3/master thrower 1(with palm throw) as a pretty fun build.
You'd have to be a halfling or a human/half-elf to avoid an XP penatly, but you'd get. .
15 BAB
the ability to take (I think) all of the popular feats for these builds
defensive throwing/improved catch (kind of needed if one's using returning)
+2d6 sneak attack
+20' movement
and. .by far most importantly
If you move 10' in every round. .
+3AC
+5d6 on EVERY single attack (+7d6 on the first if denied dex bonus)
If you want to toss in the magic items, anything that gives you flight (movement up counts!) and perhaps bands of extended range from the Complete Psi (2K item, doubles range increments) are great for utility. And either returning daggers or else a haversack with a LOT of them in there
Out of curiosity, why haven't we seen any scouts tossed in here?
Because when you move, you can't make a full attack, and you need to make a full attack to use TWF and Rapid Shot.
Because when you move, you can't make a full attack, and you need to make a full attack to use TWF and Rapid Shot.
Ahh, good point, foolish me.
*ponders*
Okay, so let's work with this.
What about. . Ardent 2, Scout 5, Elocator 7, Master thrower 3, Highland Stalker 2, and one more of something else to get that last +1BAB?
With Elocator's Capricious step ability, he gets a second five foot step as long as he does no other movement, so that's 10' of movement every round, triggering the Skirmish
So we'd end up with (merely) +3d6 per attack (one from the stalker, 2 from the scout), but we'd still get the absurd amount of attacks (though we'd be tight on feats) as well as 7 (or 8 if we take that last level in Ardent) levels of ardent which could be terribly useful (especially if we're clever with our three mantles selected), a better will save thanks to the Ardent and Elocator, a good concentration which should make Defensive Throw working pretty much a gimmie. . .
How's that look?
Race - Human
1 - Ardent 1 [Freedom Mantle, Time Mantle] [Feats Dodge, Mobility]
2 - Scout 1/Ardent 1
3 - Scout 1/Ardent 2 [Life Mantle] (concentration 5) [Feat Point Blank Shot]
4 - Scout 2/Ardent 2
5 - Scout 2/Ardent 2
6 - Scout 3/Ardent 2[Feat Precise Shot]
7 - Scout 4/Ardent 2[Scout Feat Weapon Focus: Dagger]
8 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 1
9 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 2 [Practiced Manifester]
10 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 3
11 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 4
12 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 5 [Rapid Shot]
13 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 6
14 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 7
15 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 7/Master Thrower 1 [Two Weapon Fighting][Quickdraw, Palm Throw]
16 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 7/Master Thrower 2
17 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 7/Master Thrower 3 [Defensive Throw]
18 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 7/MT3/Highland Stalker 1[Improved TWF]
19 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 7/MT3/Highland Stalker 2
20 - Scout 5/Ardent 2/Elocater 7/MT3/Highland Stalker 3/Fighter 1 [Greater TWF]
Leaves four free feats for the TWF, ITWF, GTWF and rapid shot feats
From the Ardent (from Compl Psi btw) we take the Freedom Mantle (+10 move, plus dimension hop, hustle, and psionic fly as available powers), the time Mantle (+2 init plus access to Deceleration and Time Hop), and the life one so we can heal ourselves.. In addition that's still 3d6 on every attack and if the last level's fighter we can take Practiced Manifester earlier in the game to give us access to higher level powers (this guy only gets to 5th level) and still get all the way to GTWF, which gives him access to Temporal Acceleration, Anticipatory Strike, and a couple of other fun powers)
It won't really come into it's own until level 14 or so, but seems very versatile as a class, the theme seems to tie beautifully. He's mobile, has quite a few tricks up his sleeve, is far from a one-trick pony, and can still pull off the 16 daggers in a round, but his do an extra 3d6 damage EACH
Thoughts?
Out of curiosity, why haven't we seen any scouts tossed in here?
Because they are too heavy? ;)
If you want to toss in the magic items, anything that gives you flight (movement up counts!)
Hmmm, does falling count? Or being blown by a wind?
Halfling Rogue 1/Fighter 4/Swash 3/Halfling Paragon 3/Master Thrower 5/Whisperknife 4
take the feats
craven (book of vile darkness I think)
dead eye (dragon compendium)
Ranged trip is a pretty good option over two with one blow
If you can use 3rd party feats then go with Ranged Threat from Quintessential elf. If you can swing that one then you can use imp and greater combat ref as well
But I didn't go the two-wpn fighting route in addition to the thrown weapon focus.
A halfling...
Rogue 5/Swordsage 1/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5/Swordsage 4
Swordsage from Tome of Battle for some interesting manuevers (makes flanking easier, additional sneak attack damage, etc). In addition, the shadow blade feat grants dex to damage when in a shadow hand stance... so, for instance, +2d6 sneak attack and dex to damage (when using daggers) (the dex is an unnamed type of damage, so it should apply to all the daggers).
BAB: 16/11/6/1
Attk:
Thrown: 28/23/18/13 [base] (+1 Sz; +1 Wpn Focus; +1 pbs, +1 racial, +8 Dex)
Rapid Shot: 27/28/26/21/16 (as ranged touch attacks, 20') [1st:wnding/returning x2/ 2nd magebane x2 / 3rd-5th - daggers w/ greater weapon cast]
Damage: 1st: [1d3+8 (dex)+1 (Blade med.)+1 (pbs) +1 con +7d6 Sneak Attack (if approp.) (9d6 if assassin stance)]x2 / 2nd: [1d3+8 (dex)+1 (Blade med.)+1 (pbs)+2+2d6 (magebane)+7d6 Sneak Attack (if approp.) (9d6 if assassin stance)]x2 / 3rd-5th: [1d3+8 (dex)+1 (Blade med.)+1 (pbs)+5 (magic weapon greater) +7d6 Sneak Attack (if approp.)
(9d6 if assassin stance)]x6
(If I'm averaging right... 22+2 con (+42 ~ 54 sneak attk) + 38 (+42~54 sneak attk) + 96 (+42~54 sneak attk)... so... 156+2 con + (126~162 Sneak attk) in 1 rnd. (future rnds average 6 less, due to limited number of magebane daggers).
Feats: Pointblank Shot (1st); Far Shot (3rd); Precise Shot (6th); Rapid Shot (9th); Shadowblade (12th - adds dex to dagger damage); Blade Meditation (15th - +1 dam. daggers, +2 Hide); 18th (Dragon Hunter, + saves, ac & opposed checks involving dragons); Weapon Focus (Dagger - Swordsage bonus); Quickdraw (Master Thrower bonus); Snatch Arrows (Master Thrower bonus); Improved Critical (daggers only, Master Thrower bonus).
Special Abilities:
Rogue: Evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense +1.
Swordsage: Quick to Act +2; AC bonus (Wis to AC except when helpless); Insightful Strike (Wis to damage w/ shadow strikes)
Invisible Blade: Dagger sneak attack +3d6; Bleeding Wnd; Feint Mastery; Uncanny Feint (free action)
Master Thrower: Improved Evasion; Palm Throw (2 daggers per thrown attack); Defensive throw (Concentration check and no attack of opp. to throw while threatened); Weak spot (thrown attacks use ranged touch).
Secondly, using palm throw sounds a lot like a volley attack; doesn't the damage from insightful strike count as precision-based damage and thus only affect one of the daggers, also the same thing with sneak attacks and a scout's skirmish ability. I as a DM would rule that you can count ranged weapons as using finesse, but that palm throw is effectively a volley attack. So it comes down to giving up on adding +str on thrown weapons (which would happen anyway if you used Weak Spot) in order to add another 1d4 (the damage a dagger usually does) with maybe a +2 from specialization and some more if all the daggers have magical bonuses. Of course with twf, you already only get half your str bonus on off-hand attacks (I'm assuming this also affects ranged weapons), so depending on your stats the loss of +str on damage may not be such a big deal.
Although getting sneak attacks or skirmish bonuses for each would be pretty uber I just don's see how you could get all damage bonuses for both weapons thrown with palm throw. Insightful strike is still an issue though. I'm not sure if I would count it as precision-based damage in this case.
As for the swashbuckler's insightful strike, I think that the jury's out on that one. Nothing in the SRD or core rules or extra rules I've read seems to state that a weapon, when thrown, suddenly stops being light (for weapons which can be used in melee, like daggers).
I would argue it works by RAW, and I don't think it'll lead to much abuse since throwers tend to be vastly underpowered to begin with.
My favourite abusive thrower is the one from this post (shameless self-promotion), which is a Monk (OP var) 1, Whirlwind Frenzy Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Binder 11/Master Thrower 5. 200+ dmg/round hitting only half the time (which is unlikely to happen), along with the ability to do an obscene amount of damage (thousands) in optimal circumstances.
Incredibly cheesy, of course.
What can be improved? Using a hafling, preferably Strong Heart, would give another +3 to all hit statistics (+1 small, +1 Hafling, +1 for +2dex) and another +1 AC and inish. So:
My Build v1
Strongheart Hafling Ftr4/SwB3/MaT 5/InB 5/Clr 1/Shadow Thief of Amn 1/Guild Thief 1
This exploits the new class (Shadow Thief of Amn) nicely.
BAB 17 +SA 5d6
Attacks 17BAB + 6 Dex + 1 Foc +1 small +1 hafling -2 Twf -2 Rs = +22x3 /+17x2/+12x2/7x1
Damage (Normal/+Sneak): 2x (d4+5Int+2spec+1 PBS+4 Divine Might) = 29 damage per attack/ + 17.5 for SA
Average Damage Normal: 372 Average Immune to Crits: 152
(Note: If the DM don't allow the SToA and Guild Theif cheese, take another level of cleric or guild theif, and the average damge drops to 344, and BAB goes up by 1. )
Unless I missed something, this is higher accuracy, more consistent damage, and more damage vs opponents w/ SA immunity. Also, a better chance of bypassing damage reduction, as your average damage per dagger is 14.5. makign non-masterwork normal daggers bypass all but the strongest DR.
So, assuming you have a bandelero of normal daggers, roll 2 14’s and a 12 for ability scores, choose Strongheart hafling, and get a +6 Dex, +6 Int, and +6 Cha, through some combination of magic items and ability boosts, you can do this. It's a little feat intensive, but not relaly that bad.
Well, Man, I gotta tell you that sounds like one of the sweetest builds. Few questions:
A: What book does the amn thing come out of?
B: Did you make this knowingly dealing with the exp penalty for multiclassing? Cleric 1 puts you into the penalty zone.
C: I think someone mentioned in this thread or another mettaline as a property, makes it where you can choose the type of metal that your stuff is with a standard action, I believe. Not sure, just quoteing someone else's info as I don't know where that enhancement came from.
Along with those questions, I've been kinda tossing around a few ideas.
Heard something back there with the skiprocks, that's a good way to get two extra targets without having to use one of your MT tricks. However, could you use both the MT trick and the skip rock to hit another adjacent target to the one either of the ones you hit with the MT trick? This assumes that you use the MT Trick first.
Also, if you do all this with the skiprock, or shuriken for that matter, you could throw Exotic Weapon Master on to a build in order to not even have to make a concentration check to throw without provoking AoO's.
I've kind of been tossing around this build in my own head, I just can't figure out the best way to go about things. Really like the addition of the strongheart halfling, but trying to find a way to keep out of multiclass xp penalty is hard for this thing.
Whoo, first posts are always the longest...
Oh, Also:
Reading this thread and the numerous possible builds I came upon a couple of if-factors. First of all, can you really count ranged attacks as using weapon finesse and thus granting extra damage with the swashbuckler's insightful strike?
From Complete Warrior, Insightful Strike Class Feature pg 12:
"She Applies her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any strength bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well a any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier, whip, or spiked chain. Targets immune...bladda bladda bladd - A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load."
So, you can use it with thrown weapons, as long as they are light, can be used with weapon finesse and you are not wearing med or heavy armor or loaded down similarly. Especially in the case of daggers, or shuriken, or skiprocks which are all light weapons to begin with.
As there hasn't been too much certainty about what to do with the last levels of the build, how about making it a Thri-Keen character? Sure, you'd have to take the two Racial HD, and probably the 20% XP penalty for multiclassing, but the two extra arms give this build 12 extra throws each round (3 attacks from each arm, with two daggers per attack) bringing it to 28 total.
So far my
on this one.Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant (PGtF, 10,000 gp) Gives any weapon you are holding throwing and returning weapon qualities.
Is it just me, or did nobody see that before?
Skill points, int to damage, int to damage a limited amount of times a day, etc. Not bad. A lurk -> bloodstorm blade -> master thrower with some levels of slayer thrown in wouldn't be so bad either methinks.
Halfling Swash3/Fighter4/InvisBlade5/Whisperknife3/MasterThrower5
I won't post a level by level progression, because each level you gain gets something different, so whatever you want faster, take it. But I recommend starting off with first 3 levels as Swash (of course)
So here's what each class contributes:
Swashbuckler for Int to damage
Fighter for faster feat progression (feats at the bottom)
Invisible blade for SA and Int to AC
Whisperknife just cuz I want to shoot in melee w/out having to worry about AoO
And Master Thrower for the obvious reason.
Based on how you progress, your feat progressions may not look like this:
1 WF (dagger)
3 PBShot
4(f1) Precise Shot
5(f2) TWF
6 ITWF
7(f4) WS (dagger)
9 Ranged Weapon Mastery
12 GTWF
15 Dead Eye
18 Free
I'm not going to list the bonus feats that you get automatically
OK Breakdown time.
+20 BAB
16 attacks
1 attack deals (1d3 + 1 (PBS) +1 (magic enh) +2 (WS) +2 (RWM) +DEX (Dead eye) +INT (Insightful strike) [assuming dex and int are both 5] = 1d3 + 16)
+4d6 SA
From being a Halfling, Dex +2, size +1 to attack and AC, +1 to ranged attacks. So you can expect good AB when throwing.
From being a Whisperknife, now you can flank while firing, so you can get SA on all 8 (cuz palm throw doesnt apply SA to 2nd dagger) daggers, so looking damage of :
16d3 + 256 + 32d6
Min: 304 damage (immune to crits: 272 damage)
Max: 496 damage (immune to crits: 464 damage)
Avg: 400 damage (immune to crits: 368 damage)
Some downsides and miscellaneous:
He doesn't get Impr Evasion like you others
Abysmal Will save
You can take some flaws to get Manyshot just for the sake of getting Impr Rapid Shot (no penalties for rapid shot)
You should probably take a level in Invisible Blade and Master Thrower each to save feats for qualifying for Whisperknife.
GAUNTLET OF INFINITE BLADES
6,500 gp
Weight: 1 lb.
This gauntlet is made of braided mithral links.
A gauntlet of infinite blades allows you to produce a weapon at a moment's notice. When it is activated, a dagger appears in the hand wearing the gauntlet. This ability functions as often as needed, though the dagger disappears 3 rounds after it is created...
and also from the MIC
TRANSMUTING
[+2 bonus]
When you score a successful hit with a transmuting weapon against a creature that has damage reduction, that attack is resolved normally. At the start of your next turn, however, the weapon transforms, taking on the properties required to over come that creature's damage reduction. Once so changed, the weapon overcomes the designated type of damage reduction for 10 rounds, or until you strike a creature that has a different type of damage reduction. In this case, the weapon transforms in the same manner to overcome that damage reduction instead. If the target has multiple types of damage reduction, the weapon overcomes all of them. If the creature gains a new type of damage reduction after initially being struck (from changing its form, for example), the weapon must change again before it can overcome the new type. A transmuting weapon does not gain any other benefit of the properties it takes on, and it always deals normal damage.
could be useful, but also expensive...
Also if you want to build something a bit more rogue-ish I love these feats:
Improved Critical: doubles critical range (does not stack) making daggers 17-20 crits (1 in 5)
Telling Blow: applies sneak attack damage to crits
this could easily rack up the damage...
This way when you score a crit on an enemy, both the daggers from palm throw can apply SA.
Do you know the errata for Complete Warrior ?
Page 46: Invisible Blade’s Uncanny Feint
(class feature)
The invisible blade can use his uncanny feint ability once per round.
Page 58: Master Thrower’s Thrown
Weapon Trick (class feature)
The master thrower’s palm throw ability counts as a volley attack, and only one instance of precision-based damage applies to the attack roll.
Instead the "Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 4" take "Ranger 6".
Ranger 2 : Style Combat : Two-Weapon Fighting
Ranger 6 : Improved Style Combat : Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Take the alternative class feature for the ranger (complete champion) :
Champion of the Wild
By surrendering your spellcasting ability, you focus your energies on becoming a weapon master. You gain access to bonus feats much as a fighter does, but focused on your mastery of your chosen combat style. Level: 1st.
Replaces: To select this class feature, you must sacrifice your spellcasting ability.
Benefit: You no longer gain spells as a ranger, but you can now select a bonus feat at 4th, 8th, 11th, and 14th levels. You can choose any feat from the following list for which you meet the prerequisites: Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Eyes in the Back of Your HeadCW, Improved Disarm, Improved Favored EnemyCW, Improved Feint, and Improved Trip, as well as from one of the following lists, depending on your combat style.
Archery: Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid ShotCW, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged DisarmCW, Ranged PinCW, Ranged SunderCW, Sharp-ShootingCW and Shot on the Run.
Two-Weapon Combat: Greater Two-Weapon DefenseCW, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon DefenseCW, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon
Defense, Weapon Finesse.
Special: A ranger who selects this path can no longer use scrolls, wands, or other magic items that require access to a spell list, unless he has another spellcasting
class that grants access to the appropriate
spells.
Ranger 4th : ACF weapon finesse.
So, you won't have neither the Insightful Strike from Swashbuckler, neither the specialization weapon.
1 WF (dagger)
3 PBShot
4(f1) Precise Shot
5(f2) TWF
6 ITWF
7(f4) WS (dagger)
9 Ranged Weapon Mastery
12 GTWF
15 Dead Eye
18 Free
I would say the last feat would be Craven for an extra 20 sneak attack damage per hit at 20th level.
I ask cause I'd just like t see if any more tweaks are out there (like using skirmishing boots as well to get an additional attack in) or anything of that nature.
I've built this for my campaign as an NPC and she's level 5. She does seem a bit weak at the moment, but maybe I messed up a bit too.
I also made her human, since I prefer that as a race for this particular NPC. IF there's an interest I'd be happy to post the char sheet
on a side note, where are daggers of returning, I can't find them anywhere :\