I have as feats, DMM, sculpt spell, chain, augment healing, divine ward, extra turning, travel devotion,, inuitive strike.
Human
stats :
12
12
18
14
25
18
i also have a necklace of retributive healing , 5/day
I am the main party healer, and frankly the only one for that matter. I do healing 90-95% of the time, and don't really care about naythign else that much. I do go into melee or offensivve spells now and then but thats not the point.
I'm trying to get your ideas and opinions on what I should do or get to make him a better healer all around. I know the reserve feat from CoCh.. touch of healing, but even at level 9 healing spell is still only 27 damage. I don't think a feat for 27 damage is going to be any good, not sure.
I also looked at imbued healing, thing is, my domains are sun, good, and glory domain.
Any ideas?
Also, I looked at the cleric handbook, but all they had were cleric builds and items to get, I only have about 40k gold, so its a low gold/magic item setting thus far.
Thank you.
If you take Maximize Spell, it opens you up to Mastery of Day and Night, which automatically maximizes any Cure or Inflict spell you cast, with no spell slot increase or cast time increase.
Personally, my favorite setup for a healer is to take 1 level of Warlock, and go Eldritch Disciple.
For each of your Turn Undead attempts you have, you can turn an Eldritch Blast into a Healing Blast. As a 9th level character, I have a access to 4th level spells instead of 5th level, but a 4d6 Eldritch Blast that I can turn into healing, which I can do 15 or so times per day. Between that, and Mastery of Day and Night, I'm able to keep the entire group afloat.
Also, if you can, convert your Cleric to a spell point system, use Unearthed Arcana or the d20srd.
A 1st level Cure Wounds spell would cost 1 point, and heal 13 damage (1d8+5 maximized, 15 with the Augment Healing feat in Complete divine, getting you +2 points per spell level). A 2nd level cure wounds spell would max out at 26 (30 with the feat), and cost 3 points. Outside of combat, it is much more efficient to cast Cure Light Wounds.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm
Assuming 20 Wisdom, a 13th level Cleric would have 146 spell points. Thats a LOT of healing.
Requires: Maximize Spell, Knowledge (The Planes) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
The Warlock class is in Complete Arcane
The Eldritch Disciple prestige class is in Complete Mage
More information on spell points is available in the open SRD. d20srd.org is my preferred way of checking on any SRD material.
As for convincing your DM about spell points, a caster under the spell point system doesn't actually cast more spells per day, they can simply trade up or down, basically. It helps get D&D away from the restrictions of the Vancian magic system, which 'packages' spells into specific base effects. Gygax was a big fan of Jack Vance's work, so he based the magic system in D&D around the magic system in Jack Vance's, book, which is what is now the Vancian magic system. Even one of the core gods, Vecna, is an anagram of Vance.
The other issue i see is that RSoP makes you be NG for alignment. Warlock needs to be either evil or chaotic, so I'm screwed on that one as well.
Any other ideas?
That being said DMM quicken and maximize tend to be very good.
This build assumes you use Living Greyhawk's interpretation of RSoP, allowing you to follow a LG deity with the Sun domain to get Radiant Servant.
Divine Metamagic: Quicken/Persist are spiffy. Don't go Warlock; you'll lower your caster level.
Killing the enemy is not the best way to healing, it is the most fun way to win.
Enemies do damage faster than you can heal. There have been comparisons done based on average damage per CR (They probably got eaten by the WSoD) and trust me, killing stuff faster us better than healing.
Unless of course you only hit on a 20 and do 1d4-2 damage anyway, and your healing is 4d6+48, then you might as well heal.
Enemies do damage faster than you can heal. There have been comparisons done based on average damage per CR (They probably got eaten by the WSoD) and trust me, killing stuff faster us better than healing.
Unless of course you only hit on a 20 and do 1d4-2 damage anyway, and your healing is 4d6+48, then you might as well heal.
dead allies do no damage.
I know the reserve feat from CoCh.. touch of healing, but even at level 9 healing spell is still only 27 damage. I don't think a feat for 27 damage is going to be any good, not sure.
The big deal about this feat is that the healing you get from this is free, as long as you have a proper spell in the slot. So you heal your party members with this up to half their full hit points, then use your spell slots to heal them the rest of the way (leaving one slot for the reserve feat to work).
Enemies do damage faster than you can heal. There have been comparisons done based on average damage per CR (They probably got eaten by the WSoD) and trust me, killing stuff faster us better than healing.
Unless of course you only hit on a 20 and do 1d4-2 damage anyway, and your healing is 4d6+48, then you might as well heal.
Speaking as a DM who regularly games against a group including a RSoP, I disagree. With my players' PCs around 9th level, ACs tend to hover in the 28-34 range making them nigh-impregnable by CR-appropriate foes. Managing to bring them down to low hp is a herculean task accomplished only by swarms of augmented foes (or a ton of touch attacks/autodamaging effects), and that's swiftly rolled back when the the Healing domain, Augment-Healing RSoP drops Mass Cure Light Wounds for (1d8+10+10)*1.5, for a late-combat boost of 32-48 hp.
Then the spiked-chain tripmonkey goliath wades back into the combat with his +20 attack rolls and AoO's, and that's generally the end of the melee.
Mid-combat healing can be highly effective, and don't let theorists and computer modeling tell you differently.
But the thing is, the person who's building a healer could be, to steal your example, a spiked-chain tripmonkey goliath. I'd rather have the chain over the healer on my side, personally.
And as for that AC being nigh-impregnable, any martial class should have no problem hitting that at CR 9, and many creatures at CR 7 (the ones I kept stumbling into on the SRD) have a fair chance of hitting.
Mid-combat healing can be highly effective, and don't let theorists and computer modeling tell you differently.
There is certainly a time and a place for everything, and a well timed/placed heal can make or break an individual combat. That's not what the 'theorists' are saying.
The 'theorists' point out two facts:
Fact 1: Healing is a reactive action. Reactions are generally less effective tactically than pro-active actions (because they require you to give up tactical control to your opponent).
Fact 2: Healing is *usually* mathematically inferior (on even CR fights) to damage output.
Combine the two and you have a general rule, which is that in *most* circumstances, there are better things for you to be doing, as a 'healer' than healing.
Currently, in the campaign I am in, I am the party 'healer' (in that, I'm the only character with any healing magic available). In six months of play time, I've cast an in-combat heal once. We've had zero player deaths.
Mid combat healing *can* be highly effective. It just *usually* isn't. At least, not if everyone is doing their jobs at least moderately well.
When you drive a car, it's better to fill up at halfway on the fuel gauge then when your nearing empty, you just never know. Plus your sucking in a ton of crap from the road into your car.
Mind youI don't heal 100%, i'll heal roughly 75%, the other 25% is either spells for buffing, spells for attacking, or in the rare occasions, taking my scimitar with holy surge and sacred on it (+3) and smacking the demon or devil.
Well Ive played the primary healer for over 2 yrs in this campaign. I've had to do a large amount of in combat healing. Because even if the group is down like 3 points, and that's everyone, ill do a chained cure light or soemthing, and the like just to keep them up. There's no point in waiting till later to heal them ,and hoping that the next attack doesnt knock them down to -10.
Again, if you're not a healer, but instead, say, a charger, your party will likely end up having many more hit points left over after each fight. Just sayin'
I accept that as a build focused on healing, you're going to heal. What people are saying is if your build was something else, it would likely be more effective.
Again, if you're not a healer, but instead, say, a charger, your party will likely end up having many more hit points left over after each fight. Just sayin'
I understand. The thin so far is that, since my Dm wont allow outside books except main DD, like I mentioned before. No kalemar, ravenloft, eberron, etc. Leaves me very few choices. Also, I have to be NG, so there go even more choices. I'm trying to see how to make the best out of my character and if there is anything that can improve him. I see that Touch of healing feat, is good. Now b/c its not a spell, would it work with my augment healing or no? if not, still that's a potential 27 points for free. And after battle, I can just keep reusing it till halfway then heal normally, saves me a lot of spells.
Augment Healing doesn't add to it, because it's not a spell per se. The cleric in the party I'm DM'ing for retrained out of it at about... level 9, I think?
One could put a series of contingent Heals on a target, to cite just one example, set to trigger at different HP totals... making dudes kind of hard to kill. Contingent Revenance, anyone?
Well Ive played the primary healer for over 2 yrs in this campaign. I've had to do a large amount of in combat healing. Because even if the group is down like 3 points, and that's everyone, ill do a chained cure light or soemthing, and the like just to keep them up. There's no point in waiting till later to heal them ,and hoping that the next attack doesnt knock them down to -10.
You heal them when they're down 3 hit points, seriously? That's insane. You're 13th level, people should be rolling in the 70-150 range on health. That isn't even 1/20th of their health.
You didn't HAVE to do that much healing, which is the point you seem to be missing. The only time you HAVE to heal is when it's either that or someone will die.
There is absolutely a point to waiting until later. If you, instead, summoned a monster, and had it attack, It would:
A: Soak up around the same damage as an even level heal spell would replace.
B: Do damage to the mob in question.
And that's not even close to the most optimal thing to do.
You can't chain cure light, by the way. It's touch, and chain only works on targeted spells with a range greater than touch. And that's a minimum 4th level. So, you're blowing a 4th (or 6th if you aren't carrying around a reach rod) to do, what, 13 points of healing to the party? That isn't even one hit at 13th level, and many creatures hit 2 or 3 (or more) times in a given round. You'd be better off doing ANYTHING that even had a chance to end the fight one round earlier, as then you'd be saving more hitpoints than that spell could even possibly heal.
I'm at 6 months, with one in-combat heal (cure serious, and that was only because we were down two members that night) and zero deaths. Our average fight time is 3 rounds per combat, 0 losses, 0 retreats. What do your group's numbers look like?
When you drive a car, it's better to fill up at halfway on the fuel gauge then when your nearing empty, you just never know. Plus your sucking in a ton of crap from the road into your car.
Improper analogy. A car, potentially, performs differently (often worse) as its gas tank empties. A Fighter, generally does not. He fights just as well at 3 hit points as he does at 300. In fact, given the right feats/gear, he may fight much better the lower he goes.
Mind youI don't heal 100%, i'll heal roughly 75%, the other 25% is either spells for buffing, spells for attacking, or in the rare occasions, taking my scimitar with holy surge and sacred on it (+3) and smacking the demon or devil.
Heal 5% and do better stuff 95%. You're wasting your talent.
I understand. The thin so far is that, since my Dm wont allow outside books except main DD, like I mentioned before. No kalemar, ravenloft, eberron, etc. Leaves me very few choices. Also, I have to be NG, so there go even more choices.
There are PLENTY of choices in core + completes that don't have you end up the party ***** doing the least effective thing you could be doing in combat every round.
Just try, one time, to forgoe healing in combat. Instead, cast Battlefield controls, debuffs, or party buffs. See how much quicker the fight is over, see how few people die. Look at how much more fun it is to be something that's actually useful as opposed to a glorified bandaid.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=900334
Read that. Seriously.
Draconic Aura-Vigor is one of the cheapest ways to heal between combats. It's a feat from Dragon Magic.
Follow that up with Healing Belts (everyone in party should have them) from MIC.
If anyone needs any healing between fights use a wand of lesser vigor paired with Healthful rest on the party. (both from the spell compendium)
Legal target for persist as it is of "fixed or personal range" (20 ft).
Good, yes? ;)
If everyone has to stay within 20ft of you for it to work, it's not a good idea. If people just have to be in the radius at the time the spell is cast, it's pretty swank.
Positive Energy Aura is only 4th and grants up to Fast Healing 5 for anyone within the radius (though it's a shorter 10ft). And it's persistable.
Pair either with Healthful Rest (1st spell compendium), which doubles natural healing (including fast healing) for a number of creatures for 24hrs, and you're saving yourself a whole LOT of cures.
But then I saw Pithica owning. So yeah I like healing (the idea) but the mechanics REALLY need to be buffed before it will be useful in-combat. The first thing on the list would be to game-wide change the damage:hp ratio because it is way too high, especially at higher levels.
cleric 6/ RSoP 7
Chuck RSoP, unless your DM is very liberal with the interpreting of the class abilities (since it is intended to only empower/maximize cure spells memorized from your domain slots.
Take Mastery of Day and Night and Maximize Spell to max all heals from both cleric and domain slots. (Try to get the DM to allow it even tho it is in an Eberron book.)
Take Sacred Healing to give everyone FH3 (I think) for a turn in a radius.
There is a reserved feat (is it Touch of Healing)? Heal to half for free.
Don't let anyone tell you not to play a healer, I love playing healers. I could care less how "effective" I am.
Don't let anyone tell you not to play a healer, I love playing healers. I could care less how "effective" I am.
This is the Character Optimization boards. It is out of the bounds of our charter to tell people to play something that's less effective.
I love playing priests of all stripes, but 'healing' isn't 'optimal' use of the myriad abilities at the disposal of a priest.
This is the Character Optimization boards. It is out of the bounds of our charter to tell people to play something that's less effective.
I love playing priests of all stripes, but 'healing' isn't 'optimal' use of the myriad abilities at the disposal of a priest.
That is a load of bull.
This is CO, not "only optimize to insane levels" boards.
You can optimize Commoner class, Clerics for healing, or the Cheater of Mystra.
Optimal != Optimized
"Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). Each arc affects one secondary target chosen by you, all of which must be within 30 feet of the primary target, and none of which can be affected more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum. If the chained spell deals damage, the secondary targets each take half as much damage as the primary target (rounded down)"
If you read it carefully, that is just on the first activation of the target, As in, I cant hit the same guy 5 times with one rebounding cure light wounds, however, there are multiple primary targets. And as such, there are multiple, and overlapping secondary players.
I used to have the customer service email that said it was allowed as long as we were all in range, caster level was high enough, and i had the ability to make the spells reach and not touch, it does work. Unfortunately I can't find it on this computer.
Thus doing the 1d8 + 20 (caster max) + augment healing which is 2 per level of spell, maximized and empowered due to RSoP 10th level ability... Now chain works interestingly like this: If you target a character they get hit with full effect, and any others within range of 30 ft of them take half of half of that. Now look at cure light wounds, mass, its not an emanating or anything else, it allows me to, per my level, to target an individual player character at range.
Meaning if there are 4 characters including myself it should do this: hit each other 3 as primaries, and then then those charges hit the other players as secondries, since each gets there own primary hit.
Total healing for 3 players: average role was 5...... 12 (empowered and maximized) + 10 (augment) + 20 (level) ... + ... half of that healing power x 2 from secondary hits... Grand total: 42 + 22 +22 = 86 points of healing per person for mone cure light wounds, mass.
If I did this without mass, and just simple cure light wounds, it wouldnt be any where near as high. It would be 12 + 2 + 5 = 19 for main person and half 9 points of healing for each other person.
86 vs 19 ... big difference
One spell vs one spell
Maybe it would be productive to encourage the OP to use more buffs, which feel kind of like healing but are more aggressive. I know that I, when playing melee, would more greatly appreciate a Freedom of Movement or a Blindsight spell than keeping me between 75% and 100% health.
As per customer service rulings nad FAQ rulings, and errata, a cure light wounds mass, with divine ward, can be chained.
Meaning if there are 4 characters including myself it should do this: hit each other 3 as primaries, and then then those charges hit the other players as secondries, since each gets there own primary hit.
That is 5 seconds from a house rule away, if I were DM. Something like "Multiple Target Spells like Cure Light Wounds, Mass are made 30' range by Reach Spell but are not considered to have Fixed range for Chain Spell" or something similar.
;-(
Well first of, thanks pithica for trying to rip me a new one.
I wasn't trying to rip you a new one. I was trying to help you.
Hoever, you failed to read my first post, I said that I have divine ward. It makes any spell that I canst on allies that were touch, now close ranged. As per customer service rulings nad FAQ rulings, and errata, a cure light wounds mass, with divine ward, can be chained.
I missed the divine ward, you are absolutely correct that it changes touch spell range and allows it to be chained. That doesn't change the fact that currently, at your current level, a chained cure light wounds is a 4th level spell that does 13 points of healing to your party.
That's a waste of a 4th level spell. That's less damage than one hit will do at 13th level, much less one whole round will do.
86 vs 19 ... big difference
One spell vs one spell
That 86 points of healing to your party takes an 8th level spell slot. Which is a decent cheaper option compared to Mass Heal, when the latter isn't quite necessary.
But you aren't doing that yet. You won't be doing that per your own information until you A-Take RSOP 10 (your only at 7 per the OP), B-Have access to 8th level spells (min 15th level for a cleric, you're only 13th, per the OP), and C-have a caster level over 20 (I don't have your items or anything, but I'm assuming this isn't true yet, since you aren't evil).
At those levels, there aren't that many mobs that can do that much damage to an entire group, though. Though there are many that will be doing up to twice that much or more to one target in a given round. So, if all you do is that, you're going to have 3 group members at full (with wasted 'extra' healing) and one guy that is losing more per round than you are healing him. For him, you would be better off doing something that would end the fight one round earlier, in most cases, than casting that spell, for the rest, they aren't taking enough damage to appreciate the effort you just took.
Before you say, "I can just cast Heal on him for X+Y*3 as needed". I said in the beginning of this, that there is a time and a place for healing, and the Heal spell is almost always superior to damage on a round for round basis (unless you're DM is throwing uber-chargers or something at you, or other pcs). It's the one spell that even the most hard-core 'never heal' guys will concede is, at least occassionally, worth casting.
Others are correct, though, I've said my peace. I wasn't trying to show you up or hurt your feelings. Nor was I trying to step on anyone's 'I love healers' mojo. I am trying to help you perform better. That is all. You obviously don't want it, so I'm out. Good luck.
Also, true, I wouldn't be healing that much, and when I do, there are more effective ways of healing than what i mentioned. However, those are at higher levels, and I don't need to go spending a Heal on one player to get him back to near full, when the 89 or whatnot can heal him 3/4, and every other guy on the field the same amount.
I can only buff what I know is gonna happen. Many of the times, becasue of the DM style and campaign, roughly 85-90% of fighting is spur of the moment type of stuff and the like, so if i were to buff a few characters, they'd rather me heal them, then buff, b/c you can't buff a dead guy.
BTW, there was mention about summoning. I would however, we have a pure, mostly, summoner character already. No need for me to do soemthing that he obviously does so much better than I. Yes would mine help, sure. Would bit be as effective as his? Not really. He can summon multiple creatures, with large buffs on them, undead btw, and the like, and still have room for more.
Also, I've seen some really awesome ideas on this thread, and for that, I thank everyone. Gave me a lot of insight and the like. I guess, since I'm the youngest player in the game, 21, wit ha bunch of 36+ yr olds, oldest is 60 (DM), I sorta of get pressured into doing certain things or what not, becase arguing with them, is like talking to a damn wall.
. Now, there were a few ppl, I forget who, who said about either warlock, or the prestige class sun and night. I said it before, My DM doesn't liek outside books such as those. The part about the DM house ruling agsint it, true. MY DM could be a pain, and house rule against it. However, I doubt he would, since my healing and buffing and now and then fighting, greatly helps out the party. I doubt he'd nuke my ability like that, and town me down so far, b/c then all the other players will get ****** and such, and also, what im doing is not against any rules. It's merely not what is considered norm. Which is kind of the point of these CO boards, correct?
I have nothing else to ask for, since I've gotten so much help from all you guys. If you wnt to throw out more idea,s or discuss more stuff, be my guest, but for right now, I'm content with what I got, which in my mind, some of it, I probably don't deserve because it was overwhelmingly helpful.
Again thank you all, veteran COers and No-vets alike.
Good night
Cookie's all around!the Warlock Class and the Eldritch Disciple prestige class are both in the Complete series. Warlock is in Complete Arcane, Eldritch Disciple is in Complete Mage. If you can get feats from Complete Divine and Complete champion, I doubt they'd have any problem with Arcane and Mage.
As for your alignment problem, well, Warlocks have to be Chaotic or Evil do ADVANCE as a Warlock, or to take the class. Like how a Monk who stops being lawful cannot advance as a Monk, but can still use Monk abilities, a Warlock who becomes, say, Neutral Good, is still able to use the Warlock powers, but no longer take levels in Warlock. But, since you only need one to get the Eldritch Blast for the Eldritch Disciple prestige class, that works out.
Heck, you only really need one level of Eldritch Disciple, too. Just make sure you take the Healing Blast gift when you take your 1st ED level, then keep going RSoP.
You end up losing two cleric caster levels taking this route, but you can gain Warlock and Cleric caster levels with ED after 1st level.
but then you could technically apply your Radiant Servant of Pelor spellcasting advances to the Eldrtich Disciple class, which grants divine spells,
This has been pointed out numerous times to not work. RSoP doesn't grant divine spells, neither does Eldritch Theurge, they both advance the Cleric (or whatever base) class that grants those spells, as do all other '+ X Spellcasting Classes' do.
fixed my post.
This has been pointed out numerous times to not work. RSoP doesn't grant divine spells, neither does Eldritch Theurge, they both advance the Cleric (or whatever base) class that grants those spells, as do all other '+ X Spellcasting Classes' do.
+1
I thought it was an actual circle, like emanation from me, and anybody within range would heal. It would be good in close combat and confined areas. But many of our fights so far haven't been like that, so this works better.
Also, I asked my DM about the Day and night PrC... His exact words "NO! You can't use outside books, like I've told you before in the past. Besides, you rarely heal, you like to sit in the back and heal when you feel like it." TO which I responded to say to him " All I do is heal and buff now and then, my character goes relatively unnoticed becasue of that, If i were the half dragon barbarian you'd notice my character..."
His response "True, but no, you can't use it."
SO I'm screwed out of that one. However, our next game is Thursday so this Persistant Vigorous Circle + Healthful Rest idea might work. Just have to get persistent somehow. I don't think he'll go for it, but then again, who knows.
Vigourous Circle is a fixed range spell that target's a number of players (again, don't have spell compendium on me) and grants fast healing (3, I believe). A DM could (as I said earlier) read into it that it was intended to be an emanation, but as it's written, it most certainly isn't. There is no requirement for them to remain within the range for the duration. It is, persistable, thanks to it's fixed range and duration.
The first should double the second, and if the second is persisted, they both last all day.
The two catches are, 1, the above mentioned earlier, and 2, the spell explicitly lists a cap on how much it heals (based on your caster level), so a DM could say, "sure, the spell lasts all day, but once it's healed 40 (or whatever the cap is), it stops providing fast healing."
I personally, wouldn't rule it that way, but I could see a DM making that argument and me conceding the point if I wanted it as a player.
How much can you rebuild your character?
Besides that, I could create a new character. If i were to rebuild it, not sure how much leeway i have with it... Why? What Ideas you have?
There's an ACF for favored souls, from player's handbook II, which adds a similar carrier heal.
If we can find one more similar effect, I can press into your hands the Healer Without Heals. So I put it to gleemax, can we do this?
We're currently at 5*spell-level temporary HP per spell.
Your living allies can be counted as undead for that if you've buffed them with shroud of undeath.
But that's only 3/day, a poor use of spell slots, and also requires 10 levels of Master Specialist.
pithica: I just re-checked the spell, there is NO cap on max that can be healed by Vigorous Circle. Neither the CD nor SC versions mention such a thing.
Really? I was/am AFB to check, but I thought all the vigor line had caps?
If it doesn't, that's awesome.
plus wouldn't have nay items or gold.
Is that some kind of cruel house-rule in your groups? You should start out with items/equipment/cash equal to the entry for your level on the wealth by level chart on page 135 of the DMG.
He had me start out at level 13 with standard gold for a 1st level character from the PHB. After about 5 minutes of haggling with him, I finally got enough starting gold to afford a mighty strength composite longbow for my swifthunter...and padded armor, I think.
Anyhow, Dr. Rocktopus mentioned it earlier, but Magic of the Land from Races of the Wild would be good for the build if you're not frequently in a city or worked dungeon. Even if you are, if there's a druid or ranger to cast Acorn of Far Travel for you then it's a non-issue. It adds a +2 HP/level kicker to all spells you cast on allies, basically.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a
For what it's worth, I think that healing in combat is pretty suboptimal from levels 6-11, but it is fun to try and optimize, just like fighting with two weapons or using a crossbow is fun, but not usually as good as a 2-handed weapon or longbow.
"If we can find one more similar effect, I can press into your hands the Healer Without Heals. So I put it to gleemax, can we do this?
We're currently at 5*spell-level temporary HP per spell."
Healer without heals? Huh? NAd what dfo you mean by the 5*spell-level temporary HP per spell?
Thanks guys.
In my current campaign, as the druid (and only 'healer' in the group), I've been using that paired with Magic of the Land (and some other spells), as Doc Rock describes. I also use SNAIV to summon Unicorns between fights some times, and everyone has Healing Belts and wands of lesser vigor for between combat healing.
Draconic Aura-Vigor, grants FH 1 to your allies as long as they are within a certain number of feat (30 or 60, I can't remember, it's an Aura, like with Marshals) and are below half health. Healthful rest will in deed increase that to two.
While I agree that at 60/130, no heal should be cast just yet... keep dealing damage, etc. But when your party is low in health and you don't know how much HP is left to kill your opponent, it is WRONG to do something else besides heal or in some way get him out of harm's way while not affecting his attacks. To me, this is common sense... but nonetheless there seems to be confusion around here on the concept. Kill the thing when you know your party can survive another round, heal when it's possible that they won't. End of discussion.
That being said, at level 13 you should mostly be graduated from Cure Wounds spells. The only Cure Wounds spell you should be casting is Mass Cure Light Wounds. With your build that should be enough to keep a dying party alive at level 13, often with only 1 cast per battle (from your domain, as you've mentioned, the heal can be seksy). One domain Max Cure Light should be all you need per battle, really. For single target heals, one Heal per battle should be enough too... also huge if cast from your domain.
Now, Heal is where the controversy enters. In Empower Spell's description, only variables can be empowered, which Heal is not. However, under RSoP's description, ALL domain Heals are Empowered/Maximized. Therefore, there is a controversy in descriptions there. I HIGHLY reccomend you implore your DM to let you empower Heal.
With your build at level 13, that should be 150 x 1.5 = 225 healed. That should bring anyone hurt to full health.One last pointer. As others have mentioned, good buffing is a tremendous way to mitigate damage and minimize the need for in-combat heals. At level 13, two decent low-level buffs are Recitation and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (4th & 5th level spells). In 2 spell casts, your entire party gains +5 on attack rolls, +3 on damage rolls, +2 to AC, +2 on saves, +2 on skill checks, and an extra full BAB attack per round. Very decent efficiency.
So there you go. Buff on first 2 turns, Domain Cure Light/Domain Heal when NEED be, and Harm otherwise (or something similar).
Immediate Action to cast, 2nd level, saves lives!!
1. Empower it with the RSoP class ability- don't maximize (you'll see why in a minute).
2. Use a Ring of Mystic Healing, or something simple that adds some dice rolls to your heals.
3. Apply your Augment Healing feat.
With the Healing domain, Ring of Mystic Healing, and Augment Healing, at level 13 your caster level for Mass Cure Light Wounds is 17. The average heal with this is 4.5 + 7 (dice rolls) + 17 * 1.5 = 42.75. Not bad for a party heal from a level 13 character. Maximized, the heal is 37. And you didn't even use Divine Metamagic.
Oh, and I'm fairly new to these boards. Is there any way to know the average of what NPC's hit for, by CR or by HD? Strangely some people seem to know, for example, what an average NPC that a 13th level character is fighting will hit him for on a successful hit. Makes me scratch my head.
I'm running a ECL 13 game right now, but since my players are all playing uberchargers and decently made gishes (and of course a Cleric 13, who wins the fights through sheer ambivalence), most creatures are heavily buffed and deal about ~50-80 per round if they hit on every strike with a full attack, which is uncommon.
Oh, and I'm fairly new to these boards. Is there any way to know the average of what NPC's hit for, by CR or by HD? Strangely some people seem to know, for example, what an average NPC that a 13th level character is fighting will hit him for on a successful hit. Makes me scratch my head.
There used to be a really ugly chart someone did using the SRD a long time ago, but I can't seem to find it now.
Whenever I say that sort of thing, I'm generally averaging from my experiences in home games.
It just so happens that my current character (and most of his group) are 13th level at the moment, and I know that the last three hits I took in that game were all in the 30s. We were fighting over CR, mind you, so YMMV, but that's a caveat on everything.
It's wrong to just say, "In-combat healing is bad." If your fighter has 25/130 HP left, and the monster does around 36 damage a pop
This reminded me of a game in which my cleric couldn't hit anything +10 attack bonus with STR 12, was the only thing between the party and a Blackguard dealing 30-60 damage a round.
It dealt a total of 720 damage to my cleric (each round my cleric healed himself and my cohort also healed the cleric) to survive. My cleric's AC of 32 was pretty much a "blackguard hits with every attack" AC. Spent most of the combat on my back because he would trip, then improved trip me on a full attack. Provoke to stand each round.
If it were not for healing, the thing would have been a TPK. At 96 hit points, I had more HP's than anyone else in the party and I had the highest AC in the party.
All this while having Sunbeams I could blast each round, but the healing was more important as I knew if I didn't heal I wouldn't last more than 1 round in front of him (first full attack was 60 some odd damage.)
ALL domain Heals are Empowered/Maximized. With your build at level 13, that should be 150 x 1.5 = 225 healed.
Heal can't be empowered, but it can be Maximized.
It took TWO clerics constantly healing to keep up with the damage output of ONE damage dealing mob (whom I am assuming was at least close to your own level).
There are a vast number of tactics that (depending on how the blackguard is built and what level the party is) could have halved or even completely negated his damage. While it's certainly true that playing trial and error mid-fight is risky, there were other ways to beat that mob than standing toe to toe and trying to outlast the edge on his sword.
Grapple Him, Entangle Him, Stun Him, Blind Him, Put a wall around him, Fly over him, Levitate away from his trips, Nauseate him, whatever you have to do.
Grapple Him, Entangle Him, Stun Him, Blind Him, Put a wall around him, Fly over him, Levitate away from his trips, Nauseate him, whatever you have to do.
No one to grapple him, since the party doesn't have a "fighter" or "monk." The best grappler we would have medium bab and STR 16. Since the party was 10-12th, that translated to +12 at best on grapple.
He saved on everything with a save for the first 5+ rounds, even on high reflex saves (23) as I hit him with a Reflex 23 or be blind 5 times in a row before we managed to tie him up in a hallway with me between him and the party. I should point out we fought him before and had more room for mobility. It took 11 blindness saves (Sunbeam) at DC 23 to blind him at that time. At which point the wizard dimension door'd themselves out.
No one in the party had a Wall spell loaded, so no walls.
Fly wasn't an option, 10 foot ceiling in 5 ft hallways underground.
In short, the only viable option we had available was take the damage, and kill him with ranged damage from the nukers.
For curiosity, the party had me (12th Cleric with 10th cohort Cleric), two rogues both 12th I think, a Beguiler 11th?, a Sorcerer nuking with Orbs/manyjaws etc, a Warlock eldritch blasting.
Sorcerer had Fireball, but couldn't use it without hitting at minimum me and possible other PCs in addition to the enemies.
It took TWO clerics constantly healing to keep up with the damage output of ONE damage dealing mob (whom I am assuming was at least close to your own level).
All my heals are automatically maximized with no level increase, the cohort was turning using Pathfinder turn=heals rules to keep the party healed behind me (and including me but not the Blackguard) from the damage of the Wizard behind the Blackguard. A Cleric behind the Blackguard healed the Blackguard.
. Even if it's simple swift action buffs. It's a shame you don't have room for Silver Pyromancer, because you could snag paladin spells and then churn them out as swift actions with Battle Blessing....
For once without being an ass this won't work Doc Rock. Read Silver Pyromancer and read Battle Blessing. Silver Pyromancer lets you add Paladin spells to your class list as arcane spells, not paladin spells. Battle Blessing only works with Paladin spells, therefore RAW and RAI you cannot combine Battle Blessing with Silver Pyromancer (trust me I've tried)
No one to grapple him, since the party doesn't have a "fighter" or "monk." The best grappler we would have medium bab and STR 16. Since the party was 10-12th, that translated to +12 at best on grapple.
There are spells that can put someone in the grappled condition. They get recommended around here all the time precisely because this condition is so powerful. A lot of them give crazy bonuses that let you out grapple even a 'fighter' type that's built for grappling. You, or even your group, may not have had access to them, so I hesitate to list them out, as you can always just say "we don't have that spell". But they are spells *I* always take if they're on my list, and recommend to group mates when they ask for spell suggestions, so whenever I discuss tactics, I assume someone has them. Evard's Black Tentacles, Kelpstrand, Telekenesis, Summon Monster (to summon a high grapple mob, like a centipede), (greater) Shadow Conjuration (to mimic a grapple spell like EBT) all come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.
He saved on everything with a save for the first 5+ rounds, even on high reflex saves (23) as I hit him with a Reflex 23 or be blind 5 times in a row before we managed to tie him up in a hallway with me between him and the party. I should point out we fought him before and had more room for mobility. It took 11 blindness saves (Sunbeam) at DC 23 to blind him at that time. At which point the wizard dimension door'd themselves out.
There are spells that cause conditionals without saves. They get suggested around here a lot precisely because they are so powerful. Web will entangle, Fog Cloud will blind (even true seeing can't see through it), solid fog will slow down, et cetera. Again, as above, you may not have had those spells, but they are spells that come with high recommendations around here, and are spells I generally assume people are using. And before anyone says it, I know, he could have had a freedom of movement ring on, or something, or had the cleric behind him cast that on him.
But that is part of the point of tactical offense, forcing him to react to you rather than the other way around. Make him spend his actions trying to get rid of your conditionals, don't spend your actions getting rid of his damage, if you can (again, I wasn't there, so there may have honestly been no way to do this, but I've also honestly only been in that situation a couple of times, and it was either when a DM was cheating (or just didn't understand the rules), or he built a DMPC who's entire purpose was to be 'immune to everything').
For curiosity, the party had me (12th Cleric with 10th cohort Cleric), two rogues both 12th I think, a Beguiler 11th?, a Sorcerer nuking with Orbs/manyjaws etc, a Warlock eldritch blasting.
This paragraph is the only reason I responded to this message, for the record. When you said 'For Curiosity', I assumed you meant you wanted a response. I wasn't and ain't trying to argue with you. I am not in your party, and I don't know how any of the above characters are built; I don't know their feats, spells, skills, or equipment; I don't know for sure what they could have done. I do know that they had options, at least in the books, if not on their character sheets.
Sorcerer had Fireball, but couldn't use it without hitting at minimum me and possible other PCs in addition to the enemies.
This is mostly a joke, but, really, the sorcerer took fireball? Fireball? Fireball? That explains right there why this fight was so hard for your group.
For once without being an ass this won't work Doc Rock. Read Silver Pyromancer and read Battle Blessing. Silver Pyromancer lets you add Paladin spells to your class list as arcane spells, not paladin spells. Battle Blessing only works with Paladin spells, therefore RAW and RAI you cannot combine Battle Blessing with Silver Pyromancer (trust me I've tried)
Sounds reasonable. I've heard it read both ways, but I think your reading is probably superior.
Risner, I am really, really, not trying to argue with you.
I wasn't and ain't trying to argue with you.
This is mostly a joke, but, really, the sorcerer took fireball?
Yea, at no point did I believe you were arguing with me. I appreciate your opinions. I put that additional info up just for the sake of completeness.
The sorcerer had fireball from some MIC item that allows fireball to sub out a spell slot. He also has Evards, which this guy had zero trouble escaping the first time we encountered him. I suspect from his friendly cleric casting freedom, but the DM never told us how (if he succeeded on the grapple from the roll the DM made or just from freedom.)
The standing rule at my house (where this game is hosted) is people play the characters they want to play. No one should play a role that they don't enjoy. I happen to enjoy playing the "I can heal more than you can dish" role, so I tend to play that. This rule does often result in suboptimal party compositions. We make do without the critical roles often.
Well im in my game right now, and Dm said that in DMG that Fast healing, except where noted, acts LIKE natural healing. But it isn't natural healing. Because of this, the players are saying that FH 1 with healthful rest, will not work. Who is right on this? They say becasue it says like, and it isn't, that it won't work.
Who is right? Your DM.
Frankly there is no proof of either way. I don't think even the FAQ touches on this subject, so you don't even have a RAI stance. So it comes down to how your DM interprets it. Both are valid and both can be considered RAW.
Sounds reasonable. I've heard it read both ways, but I think your reading is probably superior.
Spoilered for off-topicness.
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LA buyoff mandatory. This uses material from like 3 settings at once (spelldancers, spellguard, and steel dragons from faerun, silver pyromancer and lightkeeper from eberron, dragon rider from dragonlance)
Main:
Petal Paladin 1/Battle Stalwart Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragon Rider 1/Spelldancer 1/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Spelldancer +3
Cohort:
Lightkeeper Wyrmling Steel Dragon Racial HD 4/Battle Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 3/Silver Pyromancer 1/Abjurant Champion +2/Divine Oracle 10/Spellsword 1
Can cast cleric, paladin, sorcerer, and glory/sun/law/war domain spells as arcane. Which means they can be put in runestaffs for the Petal's use. Artificers might be able to do that, but hey, I like the "super good team!" vibe here.
LA buyoff mandatory. This uses material from like 3 settings at once (spelldancers, spellguard, and steel dragons from faerun, silver pyromancer and lightkeeper from eberron, dragon rider from dragonlance)
Main:
Petal Paladin 1/Battle Stalwart Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragon Rider 1/Spelldancer 1/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Spelldancer +3
Cohort:
Lightkeeper Wyrmling Steel Dragon Racial HD 4/Battle Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 3/Silver Pyromancer 1/Abjurant Champion +2/Divine Oracle 10/Spellsword 1
Can cast cleric, paladin, sorcerer, and glory/sun/law/war domain spells as arcane. Which means they can be put in runestaffs for the Petal's use. Artificers might be able to do that, but hey, I like the "super good team!" vibe here.
The sorcerer had fireball from some MIC item that allows fireball to sub out a spell slot.
Goggles of the Golden Sun. That explains it.
He also has Evards, which this guy had zero trouble escaping the first time we encountered him. I suspect from his friendly cleric casting freedom, but the DM never told us how (if he succeeded on the grapple from the roll the DM made or just from freedom.)
Yeah, I probably would have tried to separate the two, if I could, but sometimes you can't. I also like to lead with Spell Theft against clerics like that, chained with a rod if I can afford it, just to know what buffs I'm up against, (and to steal as many as I can) but that's me.
Who is right? Your DM.
As risner says, If your DM says no to it, you can't use it. I happen to read the 'like' in that statement as in, 'works the same way as, except where noted here', and then pull from that the implied, 'things that work on one work on the other, unless noted'. As an example, the spell polymorph, uses the language comparing itself to alter self, and spells like true seeing work on both, even though it only explicitly mentions the first.
Purely on RAW, though, I can see it being read the way your friends are reading it, 'like' by definition infers similarity and not identicality (made up word). I just think that without an exclusion statement specifying some difference, both are the same (unless noted otherwise) when I read it. As a DM (and not just a player), I read it my way, and know the other DM's in my group do as well, but if your DM says no, even if it were RAW, it's his game.