Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 crazyroundeye Jul 22, 2010 21:14:38	Hi everybody, I'm playing in a new campaign, and I want to make my character as stealthy as possible with regards to the build I've chosen.  I'm running a dark whisper gnome, and am theoretically going to run rogue1/swash2-4/rogue 5-6/cleric (cloistered?) 7, blade bravo 8-18, swordsage 19-20.  UA level buyoff is in effect and I'm going to rock the two weapon fighting tree with some travel devotion from cleric for extra movement.  Our st is also using the feat every leve optional rule from the Books of Experimental Might.    I do know about dark stalker, my st has a problem with it since there're no prereques and no explanation given for how you get said ability, so I'm going to take it after 10th level and after I've had my cover blown by foes with sense invisible/tremoursense/darksight etc... What gear/tricks/spells can I employ to make myself as stealthy as possible? thanks in advance
#2 spiral_rider_h Jul 22, 2010 21:31:26	Have you considered Factotum (Dungeonscape) instead of Rogue? Brains Over Brawn adds your Intelligence modifier to any Strength- or Dexterity-based checks and skill checks based on those ability scores (which would add to initiative as a bonus effect). Besides that, a class that would grant you skill mastery for those class skills would be useful, such as Exemplar or Temple Raider of Olidimmara. Another neat option could be Shadowspy. If you skip the prestige classes I would understand, but Whisper Gnome Factotums are sneak extraordinaires.
#3 rydi123 Jul 22, 2010 23:11:50	Crazyroundeye... I've seen that name before... Impetus? Anyway. -I second factotum, 3 levels of it would be pretty nice. If you are just in Rogue for the SA, you get it from Blade Bravo anyway (unless your GM is mean and won't let 'melee sneak attack' count).  If not, you could use a single level in Fighter and take the sneak attack sub from UA. -For the build, do you have access to faerun?  The feat Craven, out of CoR, is great (+lvl to sneak attacks) with the TWF tree. -UMD is one of your best friends as a stealther (wands of invisibility and silence, among other things). -Rogue's Vests (MIC) are quite nice for a fairly reasonable price.  Some other items, and a link to a generally useful list of random cheap items follows: Bracers of the Hunter (Secrets of Xen'drik, 8,500 gp) +5 competence bonus on Hide checks, +2 competence bonus on initiative checks and +1d6 damage to sneak attack or sudden strike. Masterwork Tools (50gp) These are frequently overlooked, and they shouldn't be.  Buy a book to aid you in a Knowledge skill, or a snappy outfit to aid your Diplomacy check. Silent Portal Disk (350gp, Magic of Faerun p165): Any door you put the disk on makes no sound, no creaking when you open it, no cracking if you smash the lock. Your DM will hate your rogue. If you cast "animate object" on the door, you will have the first door ninja ever. You could also whack people with the door and the hit wouldn't make a noise. brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... --- If I see anything else while looking around, I'll post it for you.  My specialties in optimization lean more towards melee focused characters though (and not the DMM/Persistent kind), so my stealthing knowledge is a bit lacking.  You already got my best two suggestions in there (S.Sage, though it's a bit late in the build unfortunately, and Darkstalker from LoM).
#4 lormador Jul 23, 2010 6:26:38	If you want to be sneaky, Hide in Plain Sight is a must. Otherwise the DM will be forever denying cover/concealment and ruining the whole deal.
#5 spiral_rider_h Jul 23, 2010 8:07:42	I think I've come up with a build for the Master Sneak for you. I couldn't find the Dark template so I'm not sure of what it does or what the LA is, though. But that doesn't matter so much since you mentioned buying it off: Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Shadowspy 10/Exemplar 6 Feats would be as follows 1- Weapon Finesse 3- Skill Focus (Move Silently) (Qualifies for Exemplar) 4- Good Devotion (Traded Good Domain for it, qualifies for Shadowspy) 6- Stealthy (Shadowspy bonus Feat), Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric) 9- Alertness (Shadowspy bonus Feat), Divine Vigor 12- Extra Turning (Shadowspy bonus Feat), Darkstalker 15- Divine Fortune 17- Skill Focus (Hide) (Exemplar bonus Feat) 18- Open 20- Open (Exemplar Bonus Feat) The feat selection is preliminary, and will be used probably for mostly combat-oriented abilities as you can sneak as well as possible with everything else probably. As I come up with more for the build, I will edit the post. I won't be taking the "Feat ever level" variant into consideration so you can do what you'd like for those feat slots (good place for your TWF tree). If you character is thematically a sneaky type, I don't see why your DM would make such an issue of taking Darkstalker earlier. I'd take the feat at third level if you can convince himas such. Important class features to note: Level 3 - Brains Over Brawn: Add you Int mod to your Hide/Move Silent checks Level 4 - Aura of Anonymity: A divine bonus equal to your Shadowspy level on Hide/Disguise checks. Must be walking in a crowd of no less than ten to work. Level 8 - Personal Eclipse: Add one-half your Shadowspy level as a circumstance bonus to Hide checks if in a lit area. Level 13 - Hide In Plain Sight: Only works in lit areas, but it's Hide In Plain Sight Level 15 - Skill Mastery: Can take 10 on Int mod+1 skills. Hide and Move Silently would be two of them Level 15 - Skill Artistry: Hide or Move Silently get another +4 bonus, this time a competence bonus. Level 18 - Skill Artistry: Same as above, picking the other skill. By the numbers, at level 20, you'd have a skill check of 50 for Hide, and 46 for Move Silent and that is without considering your Dexterity and Intelligence modifiers, OR Aura of Anonymity and/or Personal Eclipse!
#6 Balthanon Jul 23, 2010 12:11:48	Given the focus on extreme sneak, another interesting option at the other end of the alignment spectrum could be an assassin build.  Factotum actually makes for an interesting assassin entry that I haven't really seen used much, despite the Int-based synergies.  I could see something like the build below working out: Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 2/Assassin 3/Strifeleader 10/Swordsage 2 (base Death Attack of 17 + Int before other modifiers, 5th level cleric spells, 2nd level assassin) Alternatively, if you don't have access to Forgotten Realms, you could go with: Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 2/Assassin 7/Black Flame Zealot 8 (base Death Attack of 15 + Int before other modifiers, 3rd level cleric spells, 4th level assassin) Archivist would work better than Cloistered Cleric to reduce MAD, but the builds will be missing turn undead at that point.  If that isn't an issue, I would replace the Cloistered Cleric in the builds.  Alternatively, you can sacrifice Wisdom to AC in the first build for Blackguard, Death Delver, or another class that grants rebuke.
#7 crazyroundeye Jul 23, 2010 23:44:30	Hey Rydi, Yes indeed, it is I.  Shining principled social monster transhuman by day, pseudo-sociopathic (E3C5 BOXM Alignment rules) charisma 5 whispergnome by night.  @spiral Rider, the dark template is as follows (tome of magic, p 161): “Dark” is an acquired or inherited template that can be added to any creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature). Dark creatures tend to be much duller in color, with more gray and black skin tones and hair highlights, than their Material Plane versions. In general, they also weigh less, as if part of their very substance was mere shadow stuff. A dark creature has all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Size and Type: Type and size are unchanged. Dark creatures encountered away from the Plane of Shadow have the extraplanar subtype. Speed: As base creature, +10 feet to all modes of movement. Special Qualities: A dark creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following. — Darkvision 60 ft. — Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar ettect). — Resistance to cold 10. — Superior low-light vision. Skills: Same as the base creature, plus Hide +8 and Move Silently +6. Environment: Changes to Plane of Shadow. Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature or same as the base creature +1; see sidebar. Alignment: Usually one step different from the base creature, rarely good. Level Adjustment: +1. the sex appeal of this template, obviously, revolves around the huge bonuses to being stealthy and the HiPS.  The rest of it is pretty sexy as well. The factotum, now that I'm looking at it, is pretty damn cool, however it doesn't thematically fit with my character concept, and since the campaign's aready started, it's gonna be hard to convince the dm to let me switch classes... Something that I am wondering about, with HiPS you can hide even if being observed, so there's no need to find concealment, does this also apply to not needing a distraction to hide from someone?  Can you just up and Ninja Vanish!(tm) when somebody's looking at you?  Cause if you can, that's pure win. Those bracers of the hunter seem very very nice, not sure if i like them or the bracers of murder from DotU: Bracers of murder grant you a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against flat-footed targets. If you have the death attack ability, the save DC to resist your death attack increases by 2. If you have sneak attack or sudden strike, reroll any result of 1 on the dice. Cost: 8,000. That link to magic items that give you big time bang for your buck us much appreciated. Peace
#8 rydi123 Jul 24, 2010 13:07:36	Rules allow you to combine two types of item into one, at an increased cost.  Those items, for example, could be combined into a single set of bracers that have all the features of both.  Rules exist in the MIC I think, and they are based on the combined function magic item costs in the DMG. What level are you starting at?
#9 crazyroundeye Jul 25, 2010 8:51:35	We're currently 2nd lvl, and yeah, I always forget that you can get two functions built into 1 item for an increased cost.  stuff to ponder.
#10 oakspar77777 Jul 25, 2010 10:29:49	1) Shadowed and Silent Moves on your Armor. Up to +15 on each. (DMG) 2) Reduce Person. The smaller you are, the better your hide checks. None of your damage is coming from the weapon itself anyways. 3) Levitate/Fly (defeat Tremorsense) / Silence (defeats Blindsense based on sound - bat, Grimlock, etc). Also, never touching the ground makes tracking you nearly impossible. 4) Make sure you are protected from scrying / searching magic. You don't want anything to ever know you are ever anywhere ever. If the entire universe forgets that your character exists, then you have done your job.
#11 razyael Jul 27, 2010 13:15:00	I did something like this for an assassin character I had a while back. There's a feat you can take that makes the supersenses (tremor/blind) have to roll spot against your stealth roll as normal (from the aberrant book I believe). Aside from that I don't remember all the little details.  Hide in Plain Sight along with like 5 or so other ways to become hidden, or deny their dex bonus made him pretty deadly too.  A couple of attacks with all that extra sneak attack damage was amazing.
#12 crazyroundeye Jul 27, 2010 21:50:31	I did something like this for an assassin character I had a while back. There's a feat you can take that makes the supersenses (tremor/blind) have to roll spot against your stealth roll as normal (from the aberrant book I believe). Aside from that I don't remember all the little details.  Hide in Plain Sight along with like 5 or so other ways to become hidden, or deny their dex bonus made him pretty deadly too.  A couple of attacks with all that extra sneak attack damage was amazing. The feat you're thinking of is darkstalker, and it's pretty much the only way for stealth based characters to survive at high levels as everything seems to have scent or blindsight or other cheating pixie nonsense.