Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 banatine Mar 30, 2008 10:08:03	Right, i am starting in a game as a 15th level swordsage, so i have spent ages trying to work out what maneuvers i would be able to have. My DM just told me to pick whatever i wanted and we would sort it out later, but i would rather ask the wizened members of the board to tell me if i am actually able to have the maneuvers i currently have. So, without further ado, here is the list: 1st- Punishing Stance, Moment of Perfect Mind, Blood in the Water, Douse the Flames. 2nd- none. 3rd- Iron Heart Surge. 4th- Fountain of Blood, Lightning Recovery. 5th- Shadow Stride (martial study at 12th level), Pouncing charge, Hearing the Air. 6th- Irresistable Mountain Strike, Wolf Climbs the Mountains, Greater Insightful Strike, Manticore Parry. 7th- Inferno Blade (martial study at 15th). 8th- Diamond Nightmare Blade. I picked those maneuvers on the assumption the through a combination og gaining and switching out, there was no reason that i couldn't end up getting all of them. I picked them also because i am becoming a master of nine, and intend to get the 9th level maneuvers from Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Tiger Claw (which is why i have 4 maneuvers/stances from each, apart from SD because it has no prerequisites, and SH because i will get it's maneuvers through No9). However, if this doesn't work, could anyone possibly suggest what maneuvers i should switch for which? Thanks in advance!
#2 eldritch_lord Mar 30, 2008 11:29:47	The only problem I can see is that a 15th-level swordsage should have 20 maneuvers, and that's not counting Martial Study, so you have too few. If you're making a warblade like you say in the title, you have too many maneuvers, as with the 2 Martial Study's it should be 13 maneuvers, not 16. If you're a multiclasses swordsage/warblade, give us the level breakdown. Once we get the numbers down right, we can give you a hand with maneuver selection. If you know you are 4 short, those are the ones you definitely want, and you want help picking the rest of them, say so and we can give you a hand with that as well. Other than that, the ones you have right now look good; I don't there are any weak ones you should switch out in there.
#3 banatine Mar 30, 2008 11:58:35	Oops, i forgot, 3 of them are the stances that you get at 1st, 4th, and 10th (Punishing Stance, Blood in the Water, and Hearing the Air respectively.) So, 11 (warblades maneuvers known at 15th) + 2 (my martial study feats) + 3 (my stances) = 16. I wasn't so much asking if i had any weak ones. I was wondering is all of my maneuver choices were legal. I meet the rerequisites for all of them, but would i have been able to take/switch all of them by lvl 15?
#4 Vicerious Mar 30, 2008 12:14:38	Edit: Misread the above post, nevermind me.
#5 ChristopherGroves Mar 30, 2008 12:20:48	I don't see any maneuvers that are really required of the non-Warblade disciplines. You might want to stick with Warblade to 20 ... Dual Stance all the time is better than 5 rounds.
#6 banatine Mar 30, 2008 12:51:40	Well, I wanted to become a master of nine, so i definately needed at least one non-warblade maneuver. I thopught that inferno blade would be the best choice (i can't argue with the extra damage it gives!), and i chose Shadow stride in order to get Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Evervation Strike at 17th. (by using the Mo9's first 4 maneuvers on shadow hand and the 5th on it). Then i can use the last 3 to gain the 9th level maneuvers for Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and Tiger Claw (and use martial study the 3rd time to get Mountain Tombstone Strike.)
#7 eldritch_lord Mar 30, 2008 13:45:59	Oops, i forgot, 3 of them are the stances that you get at 1st, 4th, and 10th (Punishing Stance, Blood in the Water, and Hearing the Air respectively.) So, 11 (warblades maneuvers known at 15th) + 2 (my martial study feats) + 3 (my stances) = 16. Okay then; usually stances are designated as such, and you mentioned swordsage, so I wasn't sure. I wasn't so much asking if i had any weak ones. I was wondering is all of my maneuver choices were legal. I meet the rerequisites for all of them, but would i have been able to take/switch all of them by lvl 15? Well, without switching, at level 15 you'll have: 1st--4 2nd--1 3rd--1 4th--1 5th--1 6th--2 7th--0 8th--1 maneuvers known (since you picked a lot of 6th and no 7th level maneuvers). You can't switch out Martial Study maneuvers or stances, so we don't need to worry about those. Without MS and stances, then, your selection is thus: 1st- Moment of Perfect Mind, Douse the Flames. 2nd- N/A 3rd- Iron Heart Surge. 4th- Fountain of Blood, Lightning Recovery. 5th- Pouncing charge 6th- Irresistable Mountain Strike, Wolf Climbs the Mountains, Greater Insightful Strike, Manticore Parry. 7th- N/A 8th- Diamond Nightmare Blade. At each level you can swap 4th: 1st for 2nd 6th: 1/2 for 3rd 8th: 1-3 for 4th 10th: 1-4 for 5th 12th: 1-5 for 6th 14th: 1-6 for 7th The numbers, worked out: 4th level 1st--3 2nd--2 3rd--1 4th--1 5th--1 6th--2 7th--0 8th--1 6th level 1st--2 2nd--2 3rd--2 4th--1 5th--1 6th--2 7th--0 8th--1 8th level 1st--2 2nd--1 3rd--2 4th--2 5th--1 6th--2 7th--0 8th--1 10th level 1st--2 2nd--0 3rd--2 4th--2 5th--2 6th--2 7th--0 8th--1 12th level 1st--2 2nd--0 3rd--1 4th--2 5th--2 6th--3 7th--0 8th--1 14th level 1st--2 2nd--0 3rd--1 4th--2 5th--1 6th--4 7th--0 8th--1
#8 zorgling25 Mar 30, 2008 15:11:06	What, no White Raven Tactics? IMO Dancing Mongoose > Pouncing Charge, since there are plenty of other ways to get Pounce.
#9 eldariel Mar 30, 2008 17:30:26	You might want to get an earlier Desert Wind maneuver at 12th level and get the swift action Shadow Blink at 15th, but otherwise your plan seems sound. Actually, if he's going for Master of the Nine, it's not smart to spend a feat on maneuvers at all; just take a level or two of Swordsage at some point to qualify and pick up Shadow Blink as a Warblade-maneuver through Master of the Nine.
#10 eldritch_lord Mar 30, 2008 17:39:45	What, no White Raven Tactics? 1) If it's not in his character concept to be an enabler, we won't make him take it. ;) (Since it doesn't work on the adept per errata/FAQ/Sage/whatever, it's not quite as good just for him.) 2) He doesn't have any other White Raven maneuvers, and he's focused on a Master of Nine, so keeping to that focus with early maneuvers is good. He can always pick WRT up later. IMO Dancing Mongoose > Pouncing Charge, since there are plenty of other ways to get Pounce. Only if you dual-wield. Going warblade/Mo9 without info on what weapon(s) he has, especially since the easiest way to get pounce (Barb 1) requires a dip, would make Pouncing Charge better since (A) he's aiming for a bunch of 9th level maneuvers and can't afford to lose IL and (B) it's not in his concept. Actually, if he's going for Master of the Nine, it's not smart to spend a feat on maneuvers at all; just take a level or two of Swordsage at some point to qualify and pick up Shadow Blink as a Warblade-maneuver through Master of the Nine. Granted, but if he's already decided he wants to take 2 Martial Study he might as well do them in the "right" order. Taking a SS level will drop his warblade/Mo9 IL by one and make him recover those maneuvers with the horrible full-round-per recovery, meaning he'd either have to pick sucky maneuvers he wouldn't use (waste of slots) or not get to use good ones.
#11 eldariel Mar 30, 2008 17:52:04	1) If it's not in his character concept to be an enabler, we won't make him take it. ;) (Since it doesn't work on the adept per errata/FAQ/Sage/whatever, it's not quite as good just for him.) 2) He doesn't have any other White Raven maneuvers, and he's focused on a Master of Nine, so keeping to that focus with early maneuvers is good. He can always pick WRT up later. Only if you dual-wield. Going warblade/Mo9 without info on what weapon(s) he has, especially since the easiest way to get pounce (Barb 1) requires a dip, would make Pouncing Charge better since (A) he's aiming for a bunch of 9th level maneuvers and can't afford to lose IL and (B) it's not in his concept. Granted, but if he's already decided he wants to take 2 Martial Study he might as well do them in the "right" order. Taking a SS level will drop his warblade/Mo9 IL by one and make him recover those maneuvers with the horrible full-round-per recovery, meaning he'd either have to pick sucky maneuvers he wouldn't use (waste of slots) or not get to use good ones. If he has ~16 maneuvers readied, he can easily use the SS-maneuvers once and then switch out to Warblade's only if the battle goes so long that he needs to keep going. He shouldn't need to recoup SS-maneuvers; just treat them as 'once per combat'-ones and use them as such, only recouping them if it's really the only option (like an opponent you can't reach so you gotta use some Desert Wind ranged attacks).That way they add versatility but don't tie down actions; sort of like an extra menu in addition to the standard Warblade-maneuvers.
#12 eldritch_lord Mar 30, 2008 18:36:02	If he has ~16 maneuvers readied, he can easily use the SS-maneuvers once and then switch out to Warblade's only if the battle goes so long that he needs to keep going. He shouldn't need to recoup SS-maneuvers; just treat them as 'once per combat'-ones and use them as such, only recouping them if it's really the only option (like an opponent you can't reach so you gotta use some Desert Wind ranged attacks).That way they add versatility but don't tie down actions; sort of like an extra menu in addition to the standard Warblade-maneuvers. Mmm, point; I suppose I just prefer having my good maneuvers available at all times, not just use them once at the beginning of combat and forget about them. If it works for him, though, that's fine.
#13 eldariel Mar 30, 2008 18:38:21	Mmm, point; I suppose I just prefer having my good maneuvers available at all times, not just use them once at the beginning of combat and forget about them. If it works for him, though, that's fine. It's also worth remembering that he'll probably apply Master of the Nine to Warblade (since it's his primary class), which means that due to Initiator Level, his best maneuvers are all going to be Warblade-maneuvers by default.
#14 eldritch_lord Mar 30, 2008 19:06:11	It's also worth remembering that he'll probably apply Master of the Nine to Warblade (since it's his primary class), which means that due to Initiator Level, his best maneuvers are all going to be Warblade-maneuvers by default. Good point as well...though then you have the issue where the swordsage maneuvers don't get used at all and you're still down 1 IL.
#15 eldariel Mar 30, 2008 19:25:59	Good point as well...though then you have the issue where the swordsage maneuvers don't get used at all and you're still down 1 IL. There's a bunch of boosts like Burning Brand you can just throw into the mix. Then something like Fan the Flames or Fire Snake that you can use before reaching melee range. And some contingencies like Shadow Jaunt. And maybe even some handy counters like Counter Charge et al. They're useful, while also expendable.
#16 eldritch_lord Mar 30, 2008 19:46:34	There's a bunch of boosts like Burning Brand you can just throw into the mix. Then something like Fan the Flames or Fire Snake that you can use before reaching melee range. And some contingencies like Shadow Jaunt. And maybe even some handy counters like Counter Charge et al. They're useful, while also expendable. Hmm...I suppose a hoplite-ish throw-ranged-weapons-then-close-to-melee strategy would work. I don't use SS often and so usually forget about Desert Wind's ranged utility and Setting Sun's positioning. In that light, I suppose it would be a valid dip.
#17 banatine Mar 31, 2008 3:49:12	Thanks for all the help guys. I was only using white raven maneuvers to make qualifying for Mo9 easy, but now that i've read White Raven tactics, it's pretty cool. (kind of related, i know WRT doesn't work on yourself, but does Swarm Tactics? i was going to take it as my first Mo9 stance.) I am a bit of a two-weapon fighter (Greatsword and Armour Spikes, i only have TWF, getting ITWF from Gloves of the Balanced Hand), so Dancing Mongoose would be useful. I suppose i could switch Irresistable Mountain Strike for it (since i have martial study twice, i know maneuver from 7 disciplines, so i can stand to lose one, especially since Mountain Tombstone Strike has no prerequisites!) So, i think i'll switch Irresistable Mountain Strike for White Raven Tactics. Also, does Manticore Parry do anything if there is no-one to deflect the attack to? if not, i think i'll get rid of that for Iron Heart Endurance.
#18 eldritch_lord Mar 31, 2008 17:13:59	Also, does Manticore Parry do anything if there is no-one to deflect the attack to? It doesn't, by RAW. Your DM might allow it to, but I doubt it. I'm not sure on Swarm Tactics; I'll get back to you