After much research, I have determined a few things:
1.) Picking a spell list is time-consuming work!
2.) Prestige Classes that work well with Sorcerers are nowhere near in number of their bookworm cousins
3.) I put waaay too much time into this stuff for a guy who doesn't get to play often. But that's not really related to why I'm here.
I've came up with the following build, mostly modeled after other people's work, but put my own spin on them (as far as I know. Again, Third Edition and all its tricks have been figured out by now I'd imagine). Without further ado:
Silverbrow Human Sorcerer 6 (metamagic specialist variant)/Incantarix 10/Mage of The Arcane Order 4
Level 1 - Maximize Spell, Empower Spell
Level 3 - Iron Will
Level 6 - Practical Metamagic (Maximize Spell)
Level 7 - Invisible Spell (Incantarix)
Level 9 - Quicken Spell
Level 10 - Twin Spell
Level 12 - Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
Level 13 - Ocular Spell
Level 15 - Arcane Preparation
Level 16 - Cooperative Spell (Incantarix)
Level 18 - Split Ray (Incantarix), Practical Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
And since it probably should be mentioned, the spell list for either build:
0 - detect magic, read magic, light, mage hand, detect poison, message, ghost sound, arcane mark, prestidigitation
1 - magic missile, true strike, true casting, nerveskitter, benign transposition
2 - wings of cover, scorching ray, combust, deflect, see invisibility
3 - greater mage armor, fly, heart of water, primal instict
4 - wings of flurry, orb of force, celerity, ruin delver's fortune
5 - arcane fusion, wall of stone, telekinesis, teleport
6 - greater dispel magic, superior resistance, contingency
7 - arcane spellsurge, greater arcane sight, spell turning
8 - greater arcane fusion, moment of prescience, mind blank
9 - time stop, sphere of ultimate destruction, summon elemental monolith
Note: Enchantment is the school dropped for Incantarix's focused study.
The first build and its variation both accomplish the same things: lots of metamagic, Spellpool versatility and Wizard-speed spellcasting. But they feel so wonky compared to the second build. I also feel losing access to dragonblood cheese (Practical Metamagic in particular) may not even be worth the increase to mental ability scores or increased caster level.
I guess what I'm asking is, when making a blaster (Mailman-style), is it preferable to forgo Dragonwrought/Draconic Reservoir cheese in favor of dragonblood Feats? Or am I loading up on too much metamagic? Anything I should do differently?
Also (and this probably sounds quite redundant), I would appreciate any constuctive feedback on the build themselves. Thanks, gang!
Further reference to tricks implemented:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
Edit list:
7/26/2010 - Updated spell list per recommendations. replaced spells deselected with "(empty spell slot)." Updated Feats on Build 2. Also linked to other forums used in Feat research as well as spell selection.
7/28/2010 - Added a link to Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Stratagems. Don't leave home with it!
8/02/2010 - Removed Dragonwrought Kobold builds to focus on better-developed concept. Also modified some spell selections with guidance from Sorcerer Extraordinaire, Solo (aka Dandu).
8/03/2010 - Further spell modification (with help from Solo).
8/11/2010 - Spell list modification. Thanks for still contributing!
Ocular Spell I don't think is actually that good. It limits the range of the spells to 30' doesn't it?
There are also a lot of great spells on the list you made, but some of them are redundant IMHO. The most questionable:
1. Fireball as well as Scorching Ray. Either is a good choice- both and we're pretty heavy on fire damage.
2. What is Tenser's Floating Disk here for?
3. Combust? Is that for a Spell Storing Weapon? I'd expect to see it paired with Sudden Maximize in that case.
4. Overland Flight is a 1/day spell- I'd rather have another way to fly.
5. Contingency is a great spell, but what are we going to put in it? We don't even have a Teleport.
6. Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge, and Greater Arcane Fusion are all great spells, but it seems we're putting them all together without the meat and potatoes to go with them, like Split Ray and Enervation.
7. We lack dimensional-travel spells entirely- no Benign Transposition, no Dimension Door, no Teleport, no Baleful Teleport.
8. I think Horrid Wilting is a bit overrated- surely we can think of something better to do with an 8th level slot. Maze, for example.
9. Meteor Swarm should be out for Elemental Monolith and Swift Concentration.
Basically, with every spell ask yourself "Would this be better in a Runestaff?" The answer is almost certainly yes for things like Contingency, unless you plan to recast frequently, using it as a tactic to get off more buffs at the start of combat or something. There are also tons of great spells that you probably wouldn't want to "waste" a spell known on also.
@Lormador, in order:
1.) I'd say fireball should be out then.
2.) Tenser's floating disc can easily go.
3.) Combust is hit with Ocular Spell. On that note, the range is actually 60 feet.
4.) Overland Flight can be dropped easily.
5.) Contingency was most likely going to be combined with Celerity. Phaedrus has a point though and it could probably be put on a Runestaff.
6.) Arcane Fusion, as well as its bigger sibling, are there for things like True Strike+Ranged Touch Spell, or True Casting+SR: Yes spell. Arcane Spellsurge lets you add in metamagic shenanigans as they become increasingly available.
7.) I originally had (I believe) Greater Teleport on the spell list, and ended up removing it for whichever reason. Either Greater Arcane Sight or Spell Turning could go. Or drop Wall of Force, Telekinesis, or Overland Flight (which can be removed easily as it is).
8.) Horrid Wilting can go. I simply picked it as I have fond memories of it annhilating mooks in a previous game on my poorly designed gish. And honestly, I never read Maze. I didn't realize it was a conjuration, or that it doesn't allow for a save.
9.) Two out of three of my ninth level spells being damage spells didn't seem like a good idea to begin with. So Meteor Swarm can go as well.
Quicken and Split Ray are both solid Feats as well. I'll see what I can pair them with and try to work them in.
And, @Phaedrus:
Ironically, I did the same thing you recommended for picking spells, except I'd ask myself, "Would this be better to get from the Spellpool?" They are definitely nice items that no Sorcerer should take lightly.
So, now that feedback has officially occured, what spells should I replace the others commented on with? We got Summon Elemental Monolith in place of Meteor Swarm, Fly in place of Fireball, Teleport replacing Overland Flight, and Maze replacing Horrid Wilting so far. Any other recommendations are welcome. Thanks again!
That said, Force Cage is a must. Or grab sculpt spell for wall of force. Any spell that doubles both as a save-less prison AND an impenetrable barrier is just too good to overlook.
Indeed most of your spell selection appears to be focused on self preservation and spell tricks. The first is fine, but you don't really seem to have the spell tech needed to make those Arcane Fusions worth while.
Perhaps consider:
-Shivering Touch
-Ray of Stupidity
-Force Cage
-Enervation
-Globe of Invulnerability (because having your own rays turned on you sucks)
-Mind Blank
Personally I find that Sorcerer's best application is in counterspelling. For a mere 2 feats (Improved Counterspell & Heighten Spell) you can basically shut down an opposing wizard for an encounter.
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As a side note, Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerers make truly spectacular Master Transmographists.
I am just going to go out on a limb and guess you deliberately didn't include any of the polymorph spell tree?
That said, Force Cage is a must. Or grab sculpt spell for wall of force. Any spell that doubles both as a save-less prison AND an impenetrable barrier is just too good to overlook.
Indeed most of your spell selection appears to be focused on self preservation and spell tricks. The first is fine, but you don't really seem to have the spell tech needed to make those Arcane Fusions worth while.
Perhaps consider:
-Shivering Touch
-Ray of Stupidity
-Force Cage
-Enervation
-Globe of Invulnerability (because having your own rays turned on you sucks)
-Mind Blank
Personally I find that Sorcerer's best application is in counterspelling. For a mere 2 feats (Improved Counterspell & Heighten Spell) you can basically shut down an opposing wizard for an encounter.
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As a side note, Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerers make truly spectacular Master Transmographists.
Yeah, Polymorph is just way too much. Plus he's a primary blaster. Heck, I might even argue Shivering Touch is a bit over the top. It is an excellent spell nonetheless, and if I did pick it up, Heart of Water would be the only spell I'd probably be willing to part with. I took that for mini-Freedom of Movement, but if it's recommended enough I will be happy to swap the two.
Ray of Stupidity is an Enchantment, which is a no-go since I banned it for Incantarix.
Forcecage was on the original spell list, but 1,500g a pop deterred me.
Globe of Invulnerability could be added to the spell list, as I dropped Contingency per other recommendations.
Mind Blank is nice. I didn't realize it lasted 24 hours, either. I'll see about maybe making room for it.
As for (Greater) Arcane Fusion, I have plenty of things to use with them:
True Strike + Empowered Scorching Ray (using metamagic specialist or Arcane Spellsurge) or Orb of Force (Arcane Fusion)
True Casting + Empowered Scorching Ray (using metamagic specialist or Arcane Spellsurge) or if I can make room, Shivering Touch. (Arcane Fusion)
Wings of Flurry + Maximized Wings of Flurry (using metamagic specialist or Arcane Spellsurge) (Greater Arcane Fusion)
I'm sure I have other stuff on my spell list that would benefit from multicasting (since the spell lists I perused featured those spells prominently; i.e. The Mailman, linked in original post).
I ended up replacing Tenser's Floating Disc with Shocking Grasp, and I'm looking for space on my spell list for Shivering Touch (possibly drop Heart of Water or Primal Instincts) and possibly Mind Blank (Maybe drop Maze even though I just added it?).
Also, I think I'm going to drop the Dragonwrought Kobold ideas for now. I just can't seem to make the concept work in such a way that it's worth it; it's just so Feat heavy. Unless anyone thinks they can be saved, that is.
Secondly, why do you have sphere of ultimate destruction over something like shapechange? The sphere is, IMO, terribly lackluster and could be replaced by a lot of things, like gate, or even wail of the banshee if you wanted to just flat-out kill some fools.
Otherwise, pretty solid stuff, although I will echo the sentiments regarding forcecage. Yes it costs 1500 gp, but that's 1500 gp for a no-save prison which they won't break out of short of disintegrate. That's worth it, IMO.
In regards to your feats, don't burn an actual feat on Iron Will. Just spend the 5k or so (IIRC, it might be less) and spend a week in an Otyugh Hole (Complete ... Scoundrel, I wanna say).
It's 3,000g, actually. Solid recommendation as long as the DM will allow it. I don't usually take things like this into consideration as a given on builds. "Hope for the best, plan for the worst," if you will.
Secondly, why do you have sphere of ultimate destruction over something like shapechange? The sphere is, IMO, terribly lackluster and could be replaced by a lot of things, like gate, or even wail of the banshee if you wanted to just flat-out kill some fools.
I'm not surprised by someone recommending against sphere of ultimate destruction. One benefit in its favor is its ability to smash walls of force. Sixth level spell slots are slim, so this is a suitable replacement. Plus, I have been practicing my evil laugh.
Otherwise, pretty solid stuff, although I will echo the sentiments regarding forcecage. Yes it costs 1500 gp, but that's 1500 gp for a no-save prison which they won't break out of short of disintegrate. That's worth it, IMO.
What would you recommend be dropped for forcecage? Greater arcane sight or spell turning. Arcane spellsurge is too useful to my build to replace in my opinion.
Thank you for the feedback!
People who dis on this spell clearly haven't see it in action. Sphere of Ultimate Destruction is a monster spell, way better than wail of the banshee, for the following reason:
1) Sphere can force multiple saves/movement. No one wants to be stuck in that thing, it is enough simply to send it near an enemy caster to make them panic and run.
2) Sphere can be cast in Timestop. Assuming you have a way to maintain concentration you can end a moderate timestop with 2-3 of these things on top of one guy. That is about 3 instances of save or die, and a buttload of damage. (You must really want that target dead though. Seriously.)
3) Sphere lasts. Did you fail to kill your intended target? no problem, you can try again and again for the next several rounds. If you succeeded, well it is on to the next target then.
4) Sphere kills infinite life tricks. Clerics relying on delay death or rapid revival tricks will be made sad when this totally annihilates their fighter friend. < 1 life = instant death to the orb, no save. No body either.
5) Finally, Sphere can do things that aren't killing. It clears out walls, it cleans up bodies, it makes hallways inaccessible to enemy forces (Invisible SoUD, or and SoUD cast in a dark area can be hilarious fun) or it can just make the path to the caster a little more perilous. At the end of the day what brings down a BBEG is not a single spell, but a barrage of different problems. Disintegrate every turn is a BIG problem.
Before people argue: I am aware that shapechange is better, infinitely better even. As is gate. Both spells are so much better that they leap over into the realm of utterly broken, in inexcusable ways. He is right not to use them, no DM in their right mind should allow those spells as written.
Hey there, CO. I've been tinkering as usual. This time, I've been playing with Sorcerers. I've always preferred spontaneous casting, and lots of source material out there has shown me some great stuff out there (Solo and DeAnno are my heroes for the time being).
As I should be.
Here is a sheet to guide you in your build. Make sure to check the small box under the skill list that shows you the spells.
As I should be.
Here is a sheet to guide you in your build. Make sure to check the small box under the skill list that shows you the spells.
Awesome work, sir. I shall peruse at my leisure and make adjustments as such.
1. The spell is Medium Range. That means both the targets must be in Medium range and willing. Unconscious means willing.
2. The spell doesn't have to include you as a target.
Benign Transposition is how you replace the scout, who somehow got in trouble AGAIN, with your tank. It's how you get said tank out of danger, when wounded, putting in your summoned creature or allied undead.
Benign Transposition works really well with Animate Dead.
If there's some trap that's hard to reach, you can send up the raven familiar and then transpose him with the rogue.
If there's an area spell problem, for example you're stuck in a big web, transpose with the Travel domain Cleric (who can walk out easily) or anyone else with the Free Movement spell up. You can save others from this situation as well. Various other BCs can be foiled, or ameliorated, with this humble 1st level spell. For example, Solid Fog, Lightning Fog, etc. You can even escape (or get your tank out of) the vaunted Forcecage with it.
Finally, it works well with the Swift X series, by such as Swift (Expeditious Retreat / Fly / Etherealness) to get people into or out of difficult situations quickly. For example, the Sorcerer uses Swift Fly, uses move action to fly 60' next to the cleric, then Benign Transposes to save a troubled party member.
It's going to see much more play than a Shocking Grasp. Just casting it gives one the sensation of winning the encounter! Particularly when you see an enemy caster blow 1500gp to Forcecage your charger only to have it serve as an impenetrable fortress for your familiar.
And you absolutely should take the Planar Substitution level that makes half of your energy spell damage Force.
I would like to return, briefly, to the 1st level spells under consideration and re-nominate Benign Transposition. For those that haven't read the spell, which is in Spell Compendium, I advise doing so and considering:
1. The spell is Medium Range. That means both the targets must be in Medium range and willing. Unconscious means willing.
2. The spell doesn't have to include you as a target.
Benign Transposition is how you replace the scout, who somehow got in trouble AGAIN, with your tank. It's how you get said tank out of danger, when wounded, putting in your summoned creature or allied undead.
Benign Transposition works really well with Animate Dead.
If there's some trap that's hard to reach, you can send up the raven familiar and then transpose him with the rogue.
If there's an area spell problem, for example you're stuck in a big web, transpose with the Travel domain Cleric (who can walk out easily) or anyone else with the Free Movement spell up. You can save others from this situation as well. Various other BCs can be foiled, or ameliorated, with this humble 1st level spell. For example, Solid Fog, Lightning Fog, etc. You can even escape (or get your tank out of) the vaunted Forcecage with it.
Finally, it works well with the Swift X series, by such as Swift (Expeditious Retreat / Fly / Etherealness) to get people into or out of difficult situations quickly. For example, the Sorcerer uses Swift Fly, uses move action to fly 60' next to the cleric, then Benign Transposes to save a troubled party member.
It's going to see much more play than a Shocking Grasp. Just casting it gives one the sensation of winning the encounter! Particularly when you see an enemy caster blow 1500gp to Forcecage your charger only to have it serve as an impenetrable fortress for your familiar.
Points well made. You sold me, Lormador.
And you absolutely should take the Planar Substitution level that makes half of your energy spell damage Force.
I just read that. Holy cow. What spell should I part with for it should I decide to go with that substitution?
Keep in mind, though, Force Wards may become more common in your world as your fame increases.
I also find Paragnostic Apostle to be an awesome class, but it's no Incantatrix, which is pretty much > anything else.
Very low on Shadow spells, though - no shades, no conjuration or evocation....
RAPID METAMAGIC
You possess an uncanny mastery of your magic, enabling you
to modify spells on the fly much faster than others can.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 12 ranks, ability to spontaneously
cast spells.
Benefit: When you apply a metamagic feat to a spontaneously
cast spell, the spell takes only its normal casting
time.
Normal: Spontaneous casters applying metamagic must
either take a full-round action (if the spell normally requires
a standard action or less) or add a full-round action to the casting
time (if the spell takes 1 full round or longer to cast).
You may want take a Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage 46, that allow you to cast all metamagic without increasing casting time
RAPID METAMAGIC
You possess an uncanny mastery of your magic, enabling you
to modify spells on the fly much faster than others can.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 12 ranks, ability to spontaneously
cast spells.
Benefit: When you apply a metamagic feat to a spontaneously
cast spell, the spell takes only its normal casting
time.
Normal: Spontaneous casters applying metamagic must
either take a full-round action (if the spell normally requires
a standard action or less) or add a full-round action to the casting
time (if the spell takes 1 full round or longer to cast).
It's a great feat, but it would put a damper on Arcane Spellsurge when I gain access to it later. The Metamagic Specialist ACF should be sufficient for spells I don't want have an increased cast time on.
It's generally better to take the Rapid Metamagic class variant and the Obtain Familiar feat, than the Summon Familiar class feature and the Rapir Metamagic feat.
The former can be set up at level 1 and gives a stronger familiar- the later requires one to wait and saps familiar strength when prestige classes are entered.
Looks like a decent build so I wouldn't mess with it, but force substitution? Have you considered snowcasting or (IF you go mailman) Argent Savant?
Keep in mind, though, Force Wards may become more common in your world as your fame increases.
I also find Paragnostic Apostle to be an awesome class, but it's no Incantatrix, which is pretty much > anything else.
Very low on Shadow spells, though - no shades, no conjuration or evocation....
I like Argent Savant, but the lost caster level makes it immediately unattractive. That's CO's fault, hehe. Also, just read Snowcasting for (I believe) the first time. Personally, I think using Eschew Materials with optional material components (assuming that's what you could be referring to, even though snow is effectively free) is a bit too cheesy for my taste.
Yeah, I know; I'm playing an Incantarix and think Snowcasting is too cheesy? I digress.
We share the same sentiments on Paragnostic Apostle. Also, I feel the class features you can pick from are too situational compared to the versatility of access to the spellpool. Without looking to in depth, I'm sure the options I'd like the most would undboubtedly require cross-class ranks in the required knowledge skills.
I actually never even considered the shadow X spells, what with the limited spell selection. When I was picking spells for the list, my biggest thing was picking spells I'd use the most (i.e. my blasting spells and other staples, like wings of cover), and leaving utility spells be until I get my Mage of the Arcane Order levels.
Besides, when I do make a caster that uses those spells, you better believe he'll be a Killer Gnome.
Yes, quite.
It's generally better to take the Rapid Metamagic class variant and the Obtain Familiar feat, than the Summon Familiar class feature and the Rapir Metamagic feat.
The former can be set up at level 1 and gives a stronger familiar- the later requires one to wait and saps familiar strength when prestige classes are entered.
Yeah, that's very much true. Since prestige classes wouldn't improved the class-obtained familiar, but the feat's would.
And while on the note of Arcane Spellsurge, I'm kinda reconsidering Quicken Spell. Since once I get access to Arcane Spellsurge, Quicken's benefits are more or less duplicated. That would open up two feat slots (the other slot for its Practical Metamagic). Your thoughts?
Yes, quite.
It's generally better to take the Rapid Metamagic class variant and the Obtain Familiar feat, than the Summon Familiar class feature and the Rapir Metamagic feat.
The former can be set up at level 1 and gives a stronger familiar- the later requires one to wait and saps familiar strength when prestige classes are entered.
As I have pointed out many times before, you're actually better off with the familiar of a level 5 wizard than taking Obtain Familiar and getting a level 20 one. You get all the good abilities by level 5, and the only notable thing you lose is the huge XP penalty if it dies, since that is also based on your wizard class levels. The guy with Obtain Familiar gains marginal abilties but takes a huge hit to XP if his dies.