So, this thread is about two things. First off, the Marrulurk (Sandstorm) is freakin' awesome. Awesome possum, even.
Here's what it gets:
- Small
- 3 Monstrous Humanoid HD (ouch, but still full BAB at least.)
- +1 LA (meh)
- +2d6 Sneak Attack
- Death Attack
- Nauseating breath (free action 1/day fort or be nauseated, 15' cone)
- Move Silently, Hide, Listen all +4 racial.
- Discriminating Hearing - I love this, it's a racial ability for Marruspawn. Essentially, if anything corporeal either moves or has respiration within 30', you know it's there. If you're within 5', you can pinpoint the square. Pretty much Scent.
- +2 STR, +6 DEX, +4 CON, +6 WIS, +4 CHA - Holy ****.
- Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as Racial Bonus Feats,
- Poison Use
- Fire Resist 5
- Low Light and Darkvision
So, this guy can go pretty much anywhere from there. He's got the stats to backup almost any build, provided you put some points into INT.
Here's where I'm taking him:Marrulurk 3/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 2/Master Thrower 1/Swordsage 2/Monk 2
Feats:
- Precise Shot (Racial)
- Point Blank Shot (Racial)
- Quick Draw (Flaw: Murky Eyed)
- Two-Weapon Fighting (Flaw: Frail)
- Nymph's Kiss (Lv. 1)
- Iaijutsu Focus - Class Skill* (Lv. 3)
- Weapon Finesse (Lv. 6)
- Dunno
- Carmendine Monk (Lv. 12)
I'd like some advice on where to go from there. *I convinced my DM to let me have Iaijutsu Focus as a permanent class skill as a feat expenditure. (Otherwise a factotum or samurai dip would have been needed).
With this build, he can Iaijutsu Strike at range, due to the bloodstorm blade's thunderous throw ability. He also gets his +2d6 SA every time he Iaijutsu strikes, which should be maxed at +9d6 somewhere around level 12. With TWF, nearly full BAB (10/12 lvls), flurry, Haste/QuickStrikeBracers/Etc and Palm Throw, he throws 10 daggers in a full attack, each doing 1d3 + STR/Magic + 11d6 to flat-footed opponents.
So, he's go some damage going on. Carmendine Monk and Swordsage get his Dex, Int and Wis to AC. Multiclassing in general boosts his saves. I'd like some help ensuring he can continue to be effective in the higher levels, and generally expanding his versatility. Suggestions?
Try out the Hoturi's Blade prestige class out of The Way of the Samurai book from the Rokugan campaign setting. Since your DM is open-minded enough to allow flaws for feats and class skills for feats, he/she will probably be cool with a campaign-specific prestige class being transposed for your easy use. With the build you have I believe it will mesh well. If my memory serves me correctly it awards Cha bonus to AC as well as tweaking the hell out of iaijitsu strikes. Power attack-iaijitsu may also be a good ninth level feat to boost your iaijitsu damage by 1d6. By the way, what weapon throw trick are you picking up with master thrower level one?
Palm Throw. I'll check out those books, thanks.
Swordssage and monk wis to AC are generally considered the same thing, so Carmedine would affect both. You'd just get the 'expansion' of light armor.
Your DM is going to let you be an Exalted character at level 1? Interesting. Well, at least we know you're going to be Lawful Good. And exactly what kind of fey are you having an intimate relationship with?
==Aelryinth
Any that I can get close to.
Fluff doesn't matter, thanks. I can figure that out with the DM if he feels it's necessary. I'm here for the crunch.
Annnd, since "generally considered" doesn't happen to include me or my DM (or RAW), the swordsage AC bonus and the monk AC bonus are not the same thing and are not both affected by a feat that only references one.
Just use this.
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Title: Mantis Thrower
Race: Thri-Kreen
Build Stub: Thri-Kreen Racial3/Warblade1/Fighter2/BloodStormBlade3/MasterThrower1 + X
I love using the non-psionic Thri-kreen for builds. 4 arms are just too much fun. I always find them feat starved though but after taking a look at the ToB I found a great abuse of Storm Gaurd Warrior(as many builds I've seen). This one appears to be available at 10th lv though and capable of dealing out 1000+ dmg every 2nd round. I haven't seen it posted yet...any comments are welcome.
Stats:
Str > Dex > Con > Wis > Int > Cha
This build utilizes the Thunderous Throw so High Str is great! High dex also recommended for the multi-weapon fighting feats. Suggested 32 Point Build:
Str 18 +2 = 20 - 16 Points
Dex 14 +4 = 18 - 6 Points
Con 16 +0 = 16 - 10 Points
Wis 8 +2 = 10
Int 8 -4 = 4
Cha 8 - 4 = 4
28 Point builds: Drop Str 1 Point and Dex 1 Point for
Bumps: Dex at Lv 12 to qualify for Greater MWF if you wish...the rest go to Str.
Level - Class - Notes
1 Thri-kreen1 - (feat)Multi-Weapon Fighting
2 Thri-kreen2
3 Thri-kreen3 - No HD 
4 Warblade1 - 2 Iron Heart Man. and Sudden leap(+30 jump for Thri-Kreen), (feat)Iron Heart Aura
5 Fighter1 - Point Blank Shot(Bonus Feat)
6 Fighter2 - Precise Shot(Bonus Feat)
7 BloodStorm Blade1 - (feat)Storm Guard Warrior
8 BloodStorm Blade1 - Thunderous Throw Ability
9 BloodStorm Blade1 - Weapon Focus(Bonus Feat) - Ranged Weapon(Any tiny weapon with a long range)
10 Master Thrower - Palm Throw + Quickdraw, (feat)Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting
Overview:
Early levels this guy does just fine as a multi-weapon melee expert. High Str with 4 weapon + 1 bite full round attack.
The loss of a HD is tough but high CON and HP classes like Figher and Warblade help offset it. High mobility due to speed of Thri-Kreen plus sudden leap for free movement to get into full round attack action! Decent AC in light armour due to natural armor bonus and dex. Not a tank but will likely pulp most enemies in a round or two at that point.
Things kick into high gear at Lv 6. Combat rhythm works just fine with 6 melee attacks. Versus high AC opponents use it to every round to boost your higher BAB attacks(basically sacrifice the bite and iterative attack to add +10 dmg to the other 4).
Level 8 gives Thunderous Throw which allows 8 ranged attacks with combat rhythm. I'd suggest the Chatkcha exotic weapon for great critical hit chances. You can combine it with returning ability of BloodStorm blade pretty easily.
Level 10 is where the sickness comes in. Master Thrower allows you to palm toss 16 tiny weapons. Combat Rhythm to touch attack the 1st round 16 times then the next round deal 80 * 16 = 1280 Dmg! This is ontop of the usual strength and weapon damage and not counting criticals. Throw anything feat means they can be pebbles for all it matters. I like the idea of flicking stones at enemies in range and "marking" them for death next round.
You're free to go wherever you want after that point...but if we kept focusing on the throwing:
One more level of BloodStorm and 4 more of master thrower adds:
2 MT skills, I'd suggest the richochet ability, touch throw attacks, or increased critical
Improved Critical for thrown weapons
BloodStorm Blade Lightning Richocet -> Allows adding enhancements to a set of thrown weapons to use every round with this trick. I'd suggest anything that can stun/delay the enemy on the first round toss.
Since you're still at full BAB(and picked up the 19th point of Dex at lv 12) you can pick up an extra set of attacks with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting for a total of 24 thrown weapon attacks..25 at 16th Lv.
The remaining 5 levels I'd suggest devoting to something to gain some defensive capabilities...Actually you might want to do that for levels 11->20 since you're dealing PLENTY of damage already and going to be a big target and need to hang around for 1 round before going in for the kill. A stealth option may also be a good choice to get the surprise round attack and them follow up for the kill.
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If you can do that, you got room to tag on some interesting Templates. Saint?, If your high enough lvl and really want abusive power use the Paragon creature template from Epic Level Handbook. Some would say its a +11 LA but I think the benefits make up for it 
.
Add 2 lvls of Swordsage to get Wis to AC in light armor. Or continue to build on Bloodstorm Blade and Master thrower.
OR!.
Toss in an arcaneish veiw to it and be a sorcerer, tag on wizard maybe? buff yourself up and your good as gold. Increase the damage you can already do.
Just my 2 cents.
Any DM who allows Exalted Feats without paying attention to the fluff requirements deserves the trainwreck his campaign is going to become. The feats are explicitly designed with the fluff in mind. Take away the fluff, and they're usually totally imbalanced. Fluff can be considerably more onerous then mere pre-reqs.
And since Swordsage and Monk don't stack when both are derived from Wis, they still won't stack if they get shifted to Int. You'd need levels in a class that grants AC From Int...Duellist, Invisible Blade, or something similar. If the DM allows it, then he again deserves the coming train wreck.
==Aelryinth
As to to the class skill feat, you can take a feat called 'apprentice' DMG2 which does much the same thing.
Dawnmor, thanks for the build. It looks cool, but I'm already playing the marrulurk. I'm just looking for a path for later levels.
And where is Combat Rhythm from?
Any DM who allows Exalted Feats without paying attention to the fluff requirements deserves the trainwreck his campaign is going to become. The feats are explicitly designed with the fluff in mind. Take away the fluff, and they're usually totally imbalanced. Fluff can be considerably more onerous then mere pre-reqs.
And since Swordsage and Monk don't stack when both are derived from Wis, they still won't stack if they get shifted to Int. You'd need levels in a class that grants AC From Int...Duellist, Invisible Blade, or something similar. If the DM allows it, then he again deserves the coming train wreck.
==Aelryinth
RAW source for bolded?
And, for the record, BALANCE ISN'T SOMETHING I'M WORRIED ABOUT. I'M ON THE GODDAMN CO BOARDS.
As to to the class skill feat, you can take a feat called 'apprentice' DMG2 which does much the same thing.
Thanks! My copy of the DMG2 disappeared a while back, so I've been missing out on all those random goodies it offers.
Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.
(www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv0630...)
If Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk change the source of the AC bonus for the Monk class, then the Swordsage AC bonus would not provide the same bonus (Int vs Wis).
"And where is Combat Rhythm from?"
Combat Rythm is rolled into the Stormguard Warrior feat from ToB, page 36.
Ohh. Thank you. I kept looking for a specific one called Combat Rhythm.
The CO boards worries about balance more then any other forum. It's not the Munchkin boards. Dissing the CO boards because you want to break the game isn't exactly the right approach to use here.
I belive it was the Sage Advice column which ruled that Swordsage and Monk AC were the same and didn't stack, as they never bothered with an official Tome o9S errata because of 4th. Changing the source of the bonus doesn't chagne the type, otherwise you could do Carmedine on Monk and take a level of Ninja and effectively do the same thing.
Taking Duelist or Invisible Blade works because the new bonus is effectively a Dodge Bonus.
==Aelryinth
The CO boards worries about balance more then any other forum. It's not the Munchkin boards. Dissing the CO boards because you want to break the game isn't exactly the right approach to use here.
I'm not "dissing" anything or anyone. The point is, these boards are about Character Optimization. Not balance, not anything else. Did you see any other posters saying "No, don't use that trick, it would be too effective"? No, you didn't. Because game balance is a issue between the DM and the players. You don't know anything about the game I'm playing in; you didn't ask, I didn't offer. How could you possibly gauge the "balance"? How do you know the other players aren't all Dweomerkeepers or Incantatrixes? And what does it matter? Getting another stat to my AC is hardly game breaking. It's not even an exploit. It's less ridiculous than getting the SAME stat to AC twice, although that is technically ok by RAW as long as they don't give the same type of bonus.
Multiple stats to AC is one of the fastest and simplest ways to break the game. Sure, it's not as bad as a double stat...but stats have unlimited caps and adjustments. If you're playing in a high stat game, AC goes up from multiple sources way faster then TH can.
Is it as abusive as double stats? No, Saints with Monk levels proved that. Triple from one stat? Deep Warden/Fist of the FOrest/Forsakers and Champs of Corellon/Invis blades/Duellists/Carmedine Monks proved that for Quadruples.
But all it does is slow down the chase more. The underlying imbalance is still there. You can use the exact same logic with DISMAL Rings (+1 Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale And Luck) which give +5 AC and are cheaper then a +5 ring. It's easier to raise a bunch of stats up a little then one stat up a lot.
===Aelryinth
Multiple stats to AC is one of the fastest and simplest ways to break the game. Sure, it's not as bad as a double stat...but stats have unlimited caps and adjustments. If you're playing in a high stat game, AC goes up from multiple sources way faster then TH can.
Is it as abusive as double stats? No, Saints with Monk levels proved that. Triple from one stat? Deep Warden/Fist of the FOrest/Forsakers and Champs of Corellon/Invis blades/Duellists/Carmedine Monks proved that for Quadruples.
But all it does is slow down the chase more. The underlying imbalance is still there. You can use the exact same logic with DISMAL Rings (+1 Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale And Luck) which give +5 AC and are cheaper then a +5 ring. It's easier to raise a bunch of stats up a little then one stat up a lot.
===Aelryinth
At this point, I'm not even sure what you're rambling about anymore. Are you afraid of optimization? Power creep? High armor class?
Because if it's RAW, then it's fair game on the CO boards. Even if it is technically more of a TO situation, since we don't have TO boards anymore.
And getting multiple stats to AC isn't one of the fastest and simplest ways to break the game. FFS.
If I wanted to break the game I would play a caster and do it without trying.
Why take Carmendine Monk when you have a +6 racial bonus to wisdom?
Because, the way I interpret the rules, If I take Carmendine Monk, it applies only to the Monk AC Bonus. I then take 2 levels of Swordsage, gaining its AC bonus. Now I have both Int and Wis to AC, which is what we've been arguing about (I think).
He's selectively interpreting that Monk and Swordsage bonuses are not the same. I.e. have cake, eat it, too. It's been Saged that the two UNNAMED bonuses don't stack, i.e. they are the same bonus. So Carmedine will affect them both, not just one of them. If he had Ninja levels, they'd be affected, too.
===Aelryinth
He's selectively interpreting that Monk and Swordsage bonuses are not the same. I.e. have cake, eat it, too. It's been Saged that the two UNNAMED bonuses don't stack, i.e. they are the same bonus. So Carmedine will affect them both, not just one of them. If he had Ninja levels, they'd be affected, too.
===Aelryinth
Aelryinth, didn't recognise you with your new avatar! Hope you're doing alright.
Anyway, I can see the argument for the bonuses stacking, since the conditions are different. Swordsage's works without armour (is you go by that ruling) and with light armour where as Monks are restricted to not having armour at all and their AC bonus has more to it than the wisdom modifier as an unnamed bonus part. I'd rule them not to stack though.
And please, don't take Monk for the AC bonus, use Monk's belt to get it and the first +1 for being counted as a level five Monk. That has been judged to work according to the Sage too...
You need Iiajitsu Master. First level gives you Int to AC when wielding a katana. 2nd level gives you Cha to Initiative. One of the later levels adds your Cha to EACH Iiajitsu Focus die.
Seriously, you can't optimize IF without it.
You need Iiajitsu Master. First level gives you Int to AC when wielding a katana. 2nd level gives you Cha to Initiative. One of the later levels adds your Cha to EACH Iiajitsu Focus die.
Seriously, you can't optimize IF without it.
I'm utilizing thrown weapons for my iaijutsu strike. How would you adjudicate that Int to AC while wielding a katana if I'm throwing the thing at people? Cha to initiative is nice, but not worth a two level dip. And the CHA to each IF die is like 5 or 6 levels in. Eww.
I was thinking 2 levels of monk for the AC bonus, the extra attack from flurry (if I use shurikens), evasion, good saves, and combat reflexes. I understand the monks belt option, but I like everything else that comes with that 2 level dip.
Question: With Bloodstorm Blade's thunderous throw ability, you make ranged attacks as if they were melee attacks. Does that mean you threaten with your ranged weapon's range? For instance, a dagger with a range of 10'. I couldn't find any reason that you would, but I'd love for someone to make a solid argument for it.
1. Get the gloves that give all weapon Throwing and Returning enchantments.
2. Throw katanas.
3. ???
4. Profit.
1. Get the gloves that give all weapon Throwing and Returning enchantments.
2. Throw katanas.
3. ??? Watch your DM alternate between laughing and crying.
4. Profit.
Marrluk 4, Swordsage 2, Warblade 1, Master Thrower 5, Bloodstorm Blade 3, Iiajitsu Master 5
Note: you can trade Master Thower levels for more Bloodstorm Blade.
1st HD feat: Point Blank Shot
3rd HD feat: Precise Shot
Swordsage 1: Choose Diamond Mind. This nets you Weapon Focus (katana) and Weapon Focus (Shortspear), fullfilling both feat requirements for Iiajitsu Master and Master Thrower.
6HD feat: Improved Initiative
Master Thrower 1: Quick Draw
That's all the prerequisites for feats. Easy enough to do. If you have a feat that adds Iiajitsu Focus as a class skill, and aren't allowed Flaws (do NOT take a flaw that slows your Initiative if you are), then shift the HD-tied feats back a bit. If LA Buyoff is allowed, take a level in OA Samurai, Marshall (Motivate Dexterity or Motivate Charisma, I would go with Dexterity), or another level in Warblade.
This build nets you Dex, Int, & Wis to AC and gives you an Initiative modifier of Dex+Cha+5 before any items are taken into account (if you get the level of Marshall, then twice Cha is added) and Cha modifier on every IF die. Since the best way to pull off Iiajitsu Focus is to move before your opponents do, you want your Initiative as high as possible. You also have a BAB of 18, so you're pretty likely to hit.
Thanks for posting the build.
A few points:
Marrulurk get PBS and PS as bonus feats, not HD feats.
How does your build take advantage of Palm Throw? Wielding a katana is fine for Int to AC, but it doesn't net me double Iajutsu Focus dice the way that palm throw does. Not to mention potential extra Sneak Attack dice (as many as 4 or so).
And actually, I think that the best way to pull off Iajutsu Focus is to be hidden, invisible, or some other condition that renders your foe flat-footed arbitrarily. Going first is fine, but you only have one chance to do it in each encounter.
Swap the katana over to one hand, draw and fling the daggers you have, then put your hand back on the katana. Simple. Removing and putting a hand on a two-handed object is a free action. In this way you have your Palm Throw for ranged and your katana for melee (so you still threaten) plus you keep your Int to AC.
And I forgot about Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot being racial bonus feats. That just makes it even better as you have more open feat slots.
Don't forget that going first is a garunteed flat-footed. Hiding or Invisible are dependant on the opponent as to if they work or not. Blindsight negates the flat-footed, as does True Seeing and See Invisibility in the case of Invisibility. With Iiajitsu Focus, he who strikes first usually does strike last.
Oh, and I would suggest grabbing Island of Blades as a Swordsage stance. It will make getting those sneak attacks off easier. This opens up Shadow Blade as an option which is really nice. (Aptitude Katana and you will add your Dex to attack and damage on all of your attacks). You can get Weapon Finesse so your thrown attacks that you treat as melee will use Dex for attack rolls, or you can forgo the option. Your choice. Trust me, removing Strength's importance will be huge.
Hope you are all happy now. This thread made my recent gestalt obsession even worse and I spent quite a bit of time to craft myself an Iajitsu Master in gestalt environment. The results were decent.
Hmm.. care to post it?
Hopefully this won't shoot down the thread here.
Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake Desert Kobold:
STR 10-4 6
DEX 11+2+6 18
CON 14+6 20
INT 13+3+6 22
WIS 9+3-2 10
CHA 17+3+5+5+6 36
I believe that leaves two points to be distributed wherever you want. It includes +6 enchantment to dexterity, constitution, intelligence and charisma as well as level ups for charisma and +5 inherent bonus to it.
Then to the class levels:
Fighter 1/Factotum 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Feat Rogue 1/Sorcerer 1/Iajitsu Master 5/Factotum 1/Swordsage 2/Feat Rogue 1/Sorcerer 3/Swordsage 2//Sorcerer 5/Swiftblade 1/Sorcerer 5/Swiftblade 9.
This assumes flaws. At first level go ahead, pick Dodge, Mobility and Dragonwrought at first level. Proceed to get Draconic reservoir at level three. Cloistered Cleric gives Travel devotion, Knowledge devotion and Improved initiative, Iajitsu Master hands out Skill focus (Iajitsu focus). Make sure to use the Feat Rogue and Fighter level to get Quick draw and Weapon focus (katana).
Feat choices would be something along these lines:
-Compulsory: Dragonwrought (level 1), Dodge (flaw), Mobility (flaw), Improved initiative (Time domain), Weapon focus (katana) (Feat Rogue), Quick draw (Fighter), Draconic reservoir and Greater rite of passage. This means the build still has its feats from levels 9, 12, 15 and 18, Travel devotion and Knowledge devotion from Cloistered Cleric and one more from Feat Rogue. Depending on the BAB you want, you might want to start of with Factotum to fill in the skill point prerequisites.
From this point on I would personally use Swordsage's Assassin's stance for Craven and, well, Shadow blade. Use feycraft katanas to get the benefits of Weapon finesse, sunblades come awfully handy here. Divine might doesn't hurt either. Monk's belt+Ascetic mage for those who still feel insecure and Carmendine monk to mix that Swordsage AC bonus to be intelligence based.
So, eventually, you would have charisma score to initiative twice (from Iajitsu Master and Swiftblade), your Iajitsu focus dice (that is to say, 9 times your charisma modifier to damage, more with Divine might) as well as armour class thanks to Ascetic mage. Intelligence modifier applies twice to AC and once to initiative. Dexterity modifier to initiative, damage and attack bonus.
Assume you Shapechange into a gloom. Your dexterity is now 55. Your damage is: base katana damage+9d6+9x13+2d6+20+22+11. This includes STR bonus, Iajitsu damage dice, SA dice, charisma modifier for all Iajitsu dice and dexterity modifier. I trust the build to get plenty of those dice, since the initiative is through the roof.
Sorry, all that was copy pasted.
Edit: And I am no CO specialist.
Geez. Gestalt for the craziness.
I haven't played many gestalt games, but I didn't think you could advance the same caster level from both sides of the gestalt. Meh, either way, a nice build.
Could you remind me where Swiftblade is from?
I haven't played many gestalt games, but I didn't think you could advance the same caster level from both sides of the gestalt. Meh, either way, a nice build.
Oh you definitely can. You can't advance two PrCs at the same time, though.
Could you remind me where Swiftblade is from?
WotC website. Sorry, don't have a link. You can probably dig one up in the Handy Links thread.
Heya Tshern. No, haven't uploaded a custom avatar yet. Bored/busy/unmotivated to do so.
Keep in mind that if you are using Lo5R rules on Iajitsu Focus, you should also be using their errata rules. The main part being that an Iajitsu Strike is a standard action that takes a full round of preparation to get off, and only occurs with the voluntary cooperation of the other party.
In essence, you use Iajitsu when the other party agrees to a duel, and that's it.
A full round expires as you both set up, and then you both roll init. The winner gets his draw off and does iajitsu damage since the other is flat-footed. The loser either dies or does normal damage at best.
You can also do this to break boards or rocks, and the time constraint is still there. Takes a feat, i believe.
Iajitsu was never designed or meant to be a substitute for sneak attack damage. Given that Alderac updated the Iajitsu rules with their d20 rules supplements, the CO boards never see Iajitsu builds anymore. If you want to be faithful to the original rules, it doesn't work.
Just a FYI.
===Aelryinth
Heya Tshern. No, haven't uploaded a custom avatar yet. Bored/busy/unmotivated to do so.
I just got so used to recognising everyone from the avatar. The forum renovation changed that all and even I was able to bring my Joker roulette here.
Keep in mind that if you are using Lo5R rules on Iajitsu Focus, you should also be using their errata rules. The main part being that an Iajitsu Strike is a standard action that takes a full round of preparation to get off, and only occurs with the voluntary cooperation of the other party.
I am not even using the build just made it for fun. But I have never heard of that erratum. Where is that?
I'm using Oriental Adventures as my sourcebook on this. Is that what you mean? The only mention of Lo5R is as the source of the setting, Rokugan.
In any case, I'm not going to nerf the **** out of my character based on some craptastic errata. If my DM wants to go ahead and do that, that's his call, but the character would commit seppeku in that case.
I'm using Oriental Adventures as my sourcebook on this. Is that what you mean? The only mention of Lo5R is as the source of the setting, Rokugan.
In any case, I'm not going to nerf the **** out of my character based on some craptastic errata. If my DM wants to go ahead and do that, that's his call, but the character would commit seppeku in that case.
It's not even an errata. It's a 3rd party (i.e. non-WotC book). Oriental Adventures was written in collaboration with the company that published it, but OA was an official WotC product. The Rokugan Campaign Setting isn't. So it sure as hell doesn't count as "errata" for Oriental Adventures.
Now... I like the Rokugan Campaign Setting book (and I own it). There are some awesome and flavorful things in there, but overall it is even less well balanced than standard D&D products.
So it is the infamous Dragon Magazine erratum? Never mind that then.
So it is the infamous Dragon Magazine erratum? Never mind that then.
No, that's errata for Oriental Adventures (Dragon 318). This is an entirely different book, published by another company (AEG, I think). It is not a WotC product, and doesn't have an "Official D&D" label (both OA and Dragon magazine did).
Even better then. Perhaps I will not have it as my gospel quite yet.
not to get in the middle of anyone's shtuff ...
I don't usually like SavSpecies racial classes. You can't really be a skill monkey, or a combateer, or a caster, around 3HD + any LA. But this M-thing is different. LA+1 gets bought off right at the start, and the exp penalty is gone by level 10. I'm looking at Death Attack at level 4, as pretty good stuff. Assassin 1 for access to the spell list. Get the 3 powers that help out the Death Attack via Archery. Then do a Carnivore Archery build.
Not that this is what you asked for, but it's an interesting possibility.
Marrulurk is pretty damn random. Out of Sandstorm, a rather underwhelming book in my opinion, and just ridiculously powerful for it's ECL (as a player, not necessarily as a monster). The nauseating breath is like some kind of disgusting doggie breath icing on a death/sneak attacking, stat-boosting, bonus-feat having cake. With fire resist and auditory scent sprinkles. And some other crunchy, less noticable bits.
The defining of the rules comes from the OA people who made the ROkugan setting, many of them ex-WotC people. OA was developed for Rokugan, they basically made the book for WoTC. The entire array of rules and setting came from them. The fact WoTC dropped it and they continued to run it for a while doesn't make it less valid. The OA rules are from Alderac...WoTC just published them. Once.
They noticed the way people were misusing the whole idea of Iajitsu, and further defined just what it meant. If you want to be a purist, you should go with the intention of the setting. Iajitsu is meant to be a skill that denotes a master duelist, not a sneak attack substitute so easily broken.
So, yeah, the character should commit seppuku. Heh! Or be challenging enemy monsters and samurai to lots of duels...which is how the Crane win their battles, of course.
===Aelryinth
-stuff-
Whatever the folks decided, the fact is that WotC material is what is used in D&D rules discussions. Oriental Adventures clearly states that it has in-combat use as well (although the intent seems to be the draw-and-attack in one quick motion thing) If it wasn't meant to have in-combat use, then the entire Iiajitsu Master Prestige class is completely useless and wouldn't exist.
So, whatever erratta those people decided for Rokugan is for Rokugan, NOT D&D.
The defining of the rules comes from the OA people who made the ROkugan setting, many of them ex-WotC people. OA was developed for Rokugan, they basically made the book for WoTC. The entire array of rules and setting came from them. The fact WoTC dropped it and they continued to run it for a while doesn't make it less valid. The OA rules are from Alderac...WoTC just published them. Once.
They noticed the way people were misusing the whole idea of Iajitsu, and further defined just what it meant. If you want to be a purist, you should go with the intention of the setting. Iajitsu is meant to be a skill that denotes a master duelist, not a sneak attack substitute so easily broken.
So, yeah, the character should commit seppuku. Heh! Or be challenging enemy monsters and samurai to lots of duels...which is how the Crane win their battles, of course.
===Aelryinth
A. I don't care about being a purist.
B. It's not broken.
C. You're an idiot.
THe IM class was designed to win duels, every time. It can also strike twice with a Standard Action...making it the perfect SPring Attack class. It's hardly useless, and it's a perfect showcase Crane class. Now, trying to get someone to duel you in the middle of a battle might be difficult, but that has ALWAYS been a problem with dueling. Some people just want to fight and hack your head off, not duel you. It doesn't matter how fast you get your sword out if his is already out.
You want to use the skill, don't use the version that broke it, use the version that makes it work, from the people that made the skill in the first place. "I leap out of the shadows and Iajitsu my opponent for 10d6 dmg!" means you just made a skill-based, and thus broken, Sneak attack. Drawing the sword is meaningless in this circumstance...all you did is sneak attack him.
Focus, Draw and strike. Iajitsu doesn't work just because the opponent is flat-footed...it works because his defenses are down, and you blew through them before he could get them up. You've seen Iajitusu duels .... two guys in a staredown, the feather falls, they both draw, and one dies. That's iajitsu...and yes, you can do it in big fights in a society built on honor. Just get the DM to buy into it. It's the ultimate proof of one's skill and ego...who wouldn't want to beat an IM at their own game?
===Aelryinth
THe IM class was designed to win duels, every time. It can also strike twice with a Standard Action...making it the perfect SPring Attack class. It's hardly useless, and it's a perfect showcase Crane class. Now, trying to get someone to duel you in the middle of a battle might be difficult, but that has ALWAYS been a problem with dueling. Some people just want to fight and hack your head off, not duel you. It doesn't matter how fast you get your sword out if his is already out.
You want to use the skill, don't use the version that broke it, use the version that makes it work, from the people that made the skill in the first place. "I leap out of the shadows and Iajitsu my opponent for 10d6 dmg!" means you just made a skill-based, and thus broken, Sneak attack. Drawing the sword is meaningless in this circumstance...all you did is sneak attack him.
Focus, Draw and strike. Iajitsu doesn't work just because the opponent is flat-footed...it works because his defenses are down, and you blew through them before he could get them up. You've seen Iajitusu duels .... two guys in a staredown, the feather falls, they both draw, and one dies. That's iajitsu...and yes, you can do it in big fights in a society built on honor. Just get the DM to buy into it. It's the ultimate proof of one's skill and ego...who wouldn't want to beat an IM at their own game?
===Aelryinth
It seems a little odd to base what the game should be run on on the intent of a 3rd party designer.
It also seems odd to call iajitsu broken when things such as wizard 20 still exist.
Iiajitsu Focus caps at 9d6 damage, 10d6 if you get the feat. No matter how much effort you put into it, you will never get anything higher (Iiajitsu Master notwithstanding).
Sneak Attack is easy to push past 14d6 pre-epic. Guess which one is closer to being broken. (hint: it isn't the skill). Niether are broken, however.
Now, if you are going to continue spouting this stuff that has no meaning whatsoever to the rules of the game, you may want to stop talking. Rokugan IS NOT D&D and vice-versa. Errata for one has no effect on the other.
Snakeman: 9d6+9xcharisma modifier. That is already some serious damage. It should not be too hard to push that beyond a thousand damage a round.
(Iiajitsu Master notwithstanding).
Already included it. That is the ONLY possible way to get more damage than 9d6 (10d6 in duels). Meanwhile, the number of ways to boost sneak attack through the roof is what again?
I definitely agree that it is the IM that is broken, not the skill. It should add your charisma mod to damage once per attack, not once per die of IF dice. It would still be fairly good, but not broken as hell, and there would be no problems using the skill as outlined in OA, if you use it like this.
If it only works in duels, it is basically useless in a "normal" D&D game. It would probably still be useful in a Rokugan game, due to the frequency of crazy nutbags (i.e. samurai) willing to duel you.
(Iiajitsu Master notwithstanding).
Already included it. That is the ONLY possible way to get more damage than 9d6 (10d6 in duels). Meanwhile, the number of ways to boost sneak attack through the roof is what again?
You can see I was again reading and typing without my morning coffee. How stupid of me.
Sneak attack is pretty alright and triggered by approximately the same conditions, which is great. Grab a Ring of Blinking and go to town. Craven alone adds +20 to the damage...
Sorry to barge in on the discussion this late but Iaijutsu Focus clearly states that if you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage, based on the result of an Iaijutsu Focus check.
So it only really works with the first attack (and if you have the feat Quick Draw) and as such does not seem overly overpowered or good for that matter.
Sneak attack is triggered if the opponent is considered flat-footed and much better in that respect. Especially with Craven.
That is common knowledge. Buy several +1 katanas or just spam Greater magic weapon. Drop each one after a single draw.
That is common knowledge. Buy several +1 katanas or just spam Greater magic weapon. Drop each one after a single draw.
That's just silly, especially as Player's Handbook essentially says there is a limit to the number of free actions one can perform in a turn. Any sane DM would impose that limit, although this is the Character Optimization boards.
If a guy who has trained for years can't, helped by magic, pull four damn swords from his belt he sucks.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
The link above points to a thread I made compiling the situations where an opponent is flat-footed (not just dex denied). It's a pretty long list. With quick draw, you can whip out masterwork/GMW'd daggers for every single attack you can make, and in some situations get Iaijustsu Strike on every attack in the round. The build detailed in the OP can currently make ~10 attacks a round, for 90d6 Iajutsu Strike damage, along with whatever else i can stack on each attack, with thrown weapons. Note that such a full attack would be highly situational, but completely possible.
Essentially, the character is able to deal out charger/berserker-level damage without having to be a giant brute wielding a two handed weapon. THAT is what I like about Iaijutsu Strike. Sure, you can do the same (or much better) with an optimized Sneak Attack build, but you have to specialize a bit to be able to do it to creatures that normally can't be sneak attacked (plants, constructs, undead, amorphous creatures, fortification armor, etc). Iaijustu Strike isn't affected by those limitations.
That is common knowledge. Buy several +1 katanas or just spam Greater magic weapon. Drop each one after a single draw.That's just silly, especially as Player's Handbook essentially says there is a limit to the number of free actions one can perform in a turn. Any sane DM would impose that limit, although this is the Character Optimization boards.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thc1stMq7wo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thc1stMq7wo
He was using Flashing Blades and Critical Defenses. No doubt about it.
Iiajitsu Focus can be used to dish out rediculous amounts of damage, but so can a lot of other things. The fact is, it takes quite a bit of work to get it to do so.
I do not agree.
Iajitsu is far easier to abuse then SA, because SA is a Class ability, and intrinsically related to class levels, for good or ill.
Iajitsu is a Skill, and as such can be abused like any skill can. Building to abuse SA involves taking levels in multiple classes to get SA, and as a result often giving up BAB or taking other penalties. IF is based on hitting DC's, and DC's are VERY easy to abuse.
Abusing IF takes only a Duelling item (which is a given for a build based on duelling), levels in classes that grant Iajitsu (i.e. most OA classes, and to be fair, pretty much any Melee class), and Iajitsu Master for the great Cha/dice rolls.
Pretty simple. By level 11 when you enter IM, you're pretty much able to do 10d6 if you build for it, at will...and then add Cha to the die.
Now, as a 1/rd action taking a full round to warm up, and the consent of the enemy, that's not bad. AN IM in a duel actually has a decent chance of killing a powerful enemy with one incredible strike!
For an abuse build, it's just plain silly. Using the real rules for it makes it equal parts RP and action, and controls the power of the Skill. IF was never, ever meant to steal the thunder of SA.
===Aelryinth
Sure it does. 5 levels of Iajitsu Master and a few bastard swords. A horrendous investment if I ever saw one.
BLAH
- Getting an enemy flat-footed is much more difficult than denying them their dex or flanking them.
- Without Iaijutsu Master, the extra damage caps out at 9d6, average of 40.5 damage.
- Which is possible at around level 10, if properly optimized (in a playable sense).
- More damage is easily done with any raging/charging/sneak attacking/ToB build.
- Iaijutsu Focus is a class skill for no one outside of Factotums and some OA classes.
- Iaijutsu Focus is a class skill for no one outside of Factotums and some OA classes.
All base classes with Iiajitsu Focus as a class skill:
- Factotum
- OA Samurai
- Sohei
Yup. Just 3 classes. No more.
Prestige Classes with IF as a class skill:
- Exemplar
- Iiajitsu Master (duh)
- Kishi Charger
- Singh Rager
- Weapon Master (aka, OA Kensei)
- Hida Defender
- Mirumoto Niten Master
- Akodo Champion
Shiba Protector
Note that four of them require a specific clan.
Iiajitsu Focus is much harder to pull off. It is most definitely not broken. Now, if all you are going to be doing in this thread is advocating using eratta for a DIFFERENT GAME, please find something else to talk about.
The Errata was for 3.5, not a different game. It was issued under the OGL and with WotC approval. Quit trying to play that card. Abuse from 3rd parties is a given in most games. I find it very suspicious that you are arguing against RESTRICTIONS to a skill that said 3rd party started in the first place, i.e. reining in exactly the kind of abuse being posited here.
There's half a dozen ways to pick up IF as a class skill if you are inclined to. Able Learner means you need to have ONE class with it, and then you can spend points on it as you like. Other feats let you treat skills as class skills. Likewise, the only reason IF is not on most character skill lists is because it did not exist at the start of the game (and core classes don't update for splatbooks)! So again, a very bad argument.
And you are utterly missing the point on Iajitsu Focus. There are NO feats you truly need to take to take IF...charger builds are all feat based. Thus, IF STACKS with power attacking charger and Sneak Attacking death frenzy builds. Comparing them is a straw man...the danger is that they are additive, not alternatives (and let's ignore the quick draw cheese).
IM is no better or worse then any other 5 level PrC, and certainly works better then 5 levels of fighter. Iajitsu focus doesn't require a katana, IM does. Having an IM with skill in the katana is no more or less appropriate then having a samurai with the same skill.
And the argument about getting a foe flat-footed also falls flat. From winning initiative and surprise rounds, to the death that is the BLurring Enhancement, let alone something as mundane as a Feint check with bonuses, or actually being in a duel, there are TONS of ways to render a foe flat-footed. The abuse of the build is generally on win initiative/surpirse attacks, anyways, and the enemy is dead before they can do anything about it.
Yeah, take a fighter/barb/samurai, Able learner human, make a charger build, and put points and some magic into IF. You thought Chargers were abusive before?
===Aelryinth
And the argument about getting a foe flat-footed also falls flat. From winning initiative and surprise rounds, to the death that is the BLurring Enhancement, let alone something as mundane as a Feint check with bonuses, or actually being in a duel, there are TONS of ways to render a foe flat-footed. The abuse of the build is generally on win initiative/surpirse attacks, anyways, and the enemy is dead before they can do anything about it.
Feinting denies Dex bonus to AC, but it does NOT catch an opponent flat-footed. Blurstrike does catch them flat-footed, but only a few times per day (and only one attack each time). Being able to get within melee range before combat begins is nigh impossible unless the target either A. doesn't think you will be attacking him or B. can't detect somebody standing right next to him (in which case he's flat-footed anyway), so surprise rounds are very difficult to pull off. Remember, you only get a Standard OR a Move action during a surprise round.
Really, there aren't that many ways to get a foe flat-footed, but there are plenty to deny them their Dex bonus (flat-footed being one of them). I think that's where you're getting a bit confused.
And remember: it's impossible to IF a Minotaur.
The Errata was for 3.5, not a different game. It was issued under the OGL and with WotC approval. Quit trying to play that card. Abuse from 3rd parties is a given in most games. I find it very suspicious that you are arguing against RESTRICTIONS to a skill that said 3rd party started in the first place, i.e. reining in exactly the kind of abuse being posited here.
There's half a dozen ways to pick up IF as a class skill if you are inclined to. Able Learner means you need to have ONE class with it, and then you can spend points on it as you like. Other feats let you treat skills as class skills. Likewise, the only reason IF is not on most character skill lists is because it did not exist at the start of the game (and core classes don't update for splatbooks)! So again, a very bad argument.
And you are utterly missing the point on Iajitsu Focus. There are NO feats you truly need to take to take IF...charger builds are all feat based. Thus, IF STACKS with power attacking charger and Sneak Attacking death frenzy builds. Comparing them is a straw man...the danger is that they are additive, not alternatives (and let's ignore the quick draw cheese).
IM is no better or worse then any other 5 level PrC, and certainly works better then 5 levels of fighter. Iajitsu focus doesn't require a katana, IM does. Having an IM with skill in the katana is no more or less appropriate then having a samurai with the same skill.
And the argument about getting a foe flat-footed also falls flat. From winning initiative and surprise rounds, to the death that is the BLurring Enhancement, let alone something as mundane as a Feint check with bonuses, or actually being in a duel, there are TONS of ways to render a foe flat-footed. The abuse of the build is generally on win initiative/surpirse attacks, anyways, and the enemy is dead before they can do anything about it.
Yeah, take a fighter/barb/samurai, Able learner human, make a charger build, and put points and some magic into IF. You thought Chargers were abusive before?
===Aelryinth
Since you're obviously not going to agree with the general consensus from the thread that a 3rd party errata has no bearing on the CO forum discussions and that Iaijutsu Focus isn't overpowered, can we just agree to disagree and stop flogging a dead horse?
Since you're obviously not going to agree with the general consensus from the thread that a 3rd party errata has no bearing on the CO forum discussions and that Iaijutsu Focus isn't overpowered, can we just agree to disagree and stop flogging a dead horse?
You don't know him very well, do you?
All base classes with Iiajitsu Focus as a class skill:
- Factotum
- OA Samurai
- Sohei
- EXPERT ...
I googled Iajitsu and got en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaijutsu
It's spelled with an extra "i" and then an i instead of a u.
" ... At least one author makes the distinction that, strictly speaking, iaijutsu consists exclusively of the portion of combat where the sword is drawn ... "
Sounds to me like the feat : Quick Draw
www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubbthreads.p...
But these guys think it's different from that.
iaido is the art of drawing the sword.
Iaijitsu is the art of drawing and killing with the sword. Iaido would thus be a quick and pure, seamless draw, and iaijitsu the killing result of that strike. One is simply the extension of the other.
There IS no CO board consensus on Iaijitsu. However, the CO board will concur that if you are using a 3rd party rule (IF), then errata by said 3rd party is every bit as valid as WoTC errata for their own material. The OA board, when it was around, concurred.
Again, you miss the point on IF. You only need suprise or to win initiative in normal circumstances to render a person flat-footed. Blurstrike only works a few times a day...like, whenever you want to add an extra 10d6+50 dmg to your strike, or something? This person is using IF as a combat art, not a dueling art...he wants to get the bonus as often as he can. Surpise and winning initiative are going to be key components of that technique, probably in use with a charge build.
IF, by itself, if it stacked with nothing, and couldn't be cheesed, isn't broken at all. When you start stacking it, and abusing quick draw rules, it gets downright overpowered, which is why AEG clarified the rules on when it comes into play. removed all that silliness and turned it into what it was supposed to be...the chance to one shot kill a powerful opponent in an honorable way.
===Aelryinth
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
===Aelryinth
Ok, then how about this: What's overpowered in YOUR game is EXCLUSIVELY a SUBJECTIVE GODDAMN ASSESMENT, and NOT AN OBJECTIVE FACT.
Therefore, has no bearing on Character Optimization in general.
Now get out of my thread, you've hijacked the hell out of it enough.
If I may...
www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php...
Great article, taught me a lot- of main importance is this passage:
Iaido has been characterized as a defensive art form, owing to the fact that practitioners begin and end kata with the sword in its sheath. Beginning and middle-level kata do emphasize reacting to, rather than provoking, an attack, but higher-ranking forms are often more aggressive, drawing the sword and pushing through a crowd to cut down an unaware opponent, for example. (Bold mine)
So while Iaijutsu is a style mainly concerned with honorable dueling, I see no reason why a DnD character couldn't have adapted it for legit combat purposes, I've seen much worse on these boards.
Iado is a defensive art developed because of diplomatic situations. In many formal occasions or deal making, you have to wear your sword poorly, on the wrong angle/side/location, even on the ground next to you, and if you were attacked, your sword had to be out Now, not in another breath. At it's heart, Iado is about getting your sword into position where you can fight quickly and smoothly, without having to think about it.
Iajitsu takes that to the next level, and posits killing right from the draw stroke, using the scabbard to accelerate the end of the sword on the draw to give it more speed. It's very conducive to suprise attacks, but also requires perfect form to execute, which is rather difficult when you are in motion through a crowd or on a battlefield.
Iajitsu Focus, the skill, is based around the ideal of the courtly Iajitsu Duel. Basically, you and some other tough guy put it all on the line with one draw and strike. One guy draws, and the other guy dies. The mechanics of the skill are based around that concept, not leaping out in a suprise attack and cheese-whizzing some sap to death. Indeed, the whole idea of Iajitsu Focus is the neccessity of the need to focus and build up your chi to deliver that incredibly focused single blow, hence requiring the full round of concentration to build up for the standard action strike.
It's not a sub for sneak attack. If you want an analogy, I'd say the closest skill to it is the Knowledge Skills under Knowledge (devotion), where skill checks translate to extra damage...and that is probably the most abused Devotion skill on the boards. Quick Draw alone gives you enough of a suprise advantage, letting you take a full attack against someone in range who is denied their Dex bonus.
==Aelryinth
Gah, you are a relentless dickhead, you know that? You keep repeating the same tired bullshit over and over, despite being told every time that it's irrelevent.
Dude, when he gets like this you have to learn to ignore him. He often has stuff to contribute, but sometimes he goes broken record if he feels strongly about it. This is one of those times. Stop insulting him, and start ignoring him.
Gah, you are a relentless dickhead, you know that? You keep repeating the same tired bullshit over and over, despite being told every time that it's irrelevent.
If you don't care, ignore. These forums have a strict code of conduct and, frankly, even after the changes in the layout, I'd still prefer people to feel at home here instead of being insulted.
The main point and conclusion, however, is this: It works with full attacks according to the official rules. An erratum changes that. This is the mechanical aspect.
Also, note who is defending aelryinth here...