Please note that even though both questions go against an strictly robotic RAW reading, I would like the opinion of this community about the RAI, in a reasonable understanding, respecting a systematic and teleological thinking, in regard of the following matters:
1- Does a Master of Many Forms' Elemental Improved Wildshape (acquired at level 9) work like the Druid's Elemental Wildshape (gained at 16th level)? As in Rules Compendium it says that Druid's ability allows them to "use all of the elemental form's extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities". Furthermore, both Wildshapes would be acquired at almost the same character level, the difference lying in the overall availability of forms the former character would have over the last, by not being restricted to the standard X Elemental form.
2- Still on Master of Many Forms subject, it explicitly says that one cannot assume templated forms. However, there are some creatures that do only exist by the application of a template, such as the Living Spells. Does this overrides the restriction, thus allowing an 8th level MoMF (the level in which he does acquire the ability to become an ooze) to become a Living Spell?
My thanks in advance.
2- Really? Okay:
I don't think that a character was meant to become every single creature to ever be created by WotC. Basically, if a creature is a "template only", then you just add that creature to the list of stuff in to which you cannot wild shape. It's just that simple. I don't even know where to start, as far as explaining what is fundamentally wrong with what you're proposing.
If for no other reason, this restriction provides a balancing point; as well as prevents a whole lot of complication. True, a lot of the templated forms aren't that big a deal (though, a lot are); but it really just complicates everything all the way around for everybody involved.
As for your Living Spell example: as I understand it, it is just that -- a spell gone awry; a bundle of magic from a spell that takes on a life of its own; an anomaly. Wild shape is supposed to be something that represents your attunement with nature; and there is nothing natural about a living spell (I am also one that has issue with aberations being a wild shape option).
but hey, that's just one person's opinion.
As the following questions got buried and trampled over in the Simple Question/Answer thread, I am repeating them here, as they seem not to be simple enough to merit answers in the aforementioned thread.
Please note that even though both questions go against an strictly robotic RAW reading, I would like the opinion of this community about the RAI, in a reasonable understanding, respecting a systematic and teleological thinking, in regard of the following matters:
1- Does a Master of Many Forms' Elemental Improved Wildshape (acquired at level 9) work like the Druid's Elemental Wildshape (gained at 16th level)? As in Rules Compendium it says that Druid's ability allows them to "use all of the elemental form's extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities". Furthermore, both Wildshapes would be acquired at almost the same character level, the difference lying in the overall availability of forms the former character would have over the last, by not being restricted to the standard X Elemental form.
2- Still on Master of Many Forms subject, it explicitly says that one cannot assume templated forms. However, there are some creatures that do only exist by the application of a template, such as the Living Spells. Does this overrides the restriction, thus allowing an 8th level MoMF (the level in which he does acquire the ability to become an ooze) to become a Living Spell?
My thanks in advance.
Tough, tough questions, my answers (what are yours?)
1. No. And I think it is also intended this way, as the class hasn't changed much over the time. I recall a 3.0 adventure, I was on, a many forms master was just fine with the (ex) abilities. It is an old duck as the assassin or arcane archer. They all have something in common, but I cannot remember what it was...
Ask your DM to houserule it for elementals (and only them). I would.
2. Living spell is RAW not a template (that modifies a monster), so go ahead. Is uncool without (su) anyway.
Certain creatures are created by adding a template to an existing creature. A templated creature can represent a freak of nature, the individual creation of a single experimenter, or the first generation of offspring from parents of different species.
Creature =! spell. No base, no template. More like a generic creation process. Though I would houserule to except these beasts. As either player or DM, anywhere I go.
What exactly is it that you want to get optimized? Your German?
Concerning #1, since there isn't a large number (at least that I am aware) of Elemental creatures with absurd supernatural or spell-like abilities, I've come to an understanding with my DM that it would be actually okay to use it in casu of the elementals. After all, as jgumbryx said, there's an actual leak of caster levels, which cripples the character enough. As even in the MoMF Bible one says that a single spell (shapechange for the matter) is stronger than the whole class.
As for #2, I can't really think of any other creature besides the Living Spell that does not exist without the application of a template. Again, the in game nature of Living Spell, as pointed out by jumbryx would really break down the possibility of an argumentation, but then, aberration forms are allowed, thus breaking up somewhat the "natural feeling" of the class.
nice2meetU, however, brought up a very solid point with the generic creation theory. Though without the supernatural abilities, it still has the Engulf, which specifically allows the effects of the original spell to take place upon the engulfed creature. So I guess I will just try to stick to this thesis with my DM.
Thank you both, guys!
By the way, I am no German (although I enjoy their language), just a Scottish living down here in Brazil (and it's freaking hot, even in winter).
I am not to sure if the spell works when you engulf something, as the other oozes have similar abilities tied to their acid. I feel that the (su) is part of the engulf (and I as a DM would say "no living spells" - 11 HD for 9th level spell on attack is kinda ~~).
Anyhow, that is the negotiation part at the table. Don't make them throw chips and soda.
1- Does a Master of Many Forms' Elemental Improved Wildshape (acquired at level 9) work like the Druid's Elemental Wildshape (gained at 16th level)?
2- Still on Master of Many Forms subject, it explicitly says that one cannot assume templated forms.
These are simple questions.
1) No, you would gain the Elemental form without the Su abilities. Frankly why would you care? The two Su you get (Whirlwind and Vortex) are blah. The intent is going to be that you don't get the Su's either, since the MoMF ability lets you become anything of type Elemental while the Druid Elemental form is limited to Air/Earth/Water/Fire.
2) No templated forms means no templated forms. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Concerning #1, since there isn't a large number (at least that I am aware) of Elemental creatures with absurd supernatural or spell-like abilities
Unless I'm confused you never get SLA's. At no point could one argue it is intent or balanced to grant Su abilities from any Elemental other than the base four. You could make the case that you should get the four base ones's Su (really just the two I list above), but I wouldn't grant it as a DM.
Also, calling the MoMF crippling is very strange to me. It may not be as powerful as full casting in the long run, but it's still pretty powerful. (You can be a "full" War Troll from level 12 on, you have a tool for every situation, etc...)
I really do like the class and what I am trying to accomplish here is getting a little boost (in a reasonable and systematic acceptable way) in it's power curve, since my party is composed mainly of uberoptimizers.
For the spell-like abilities, Risner, you can check out the last update of Druid's wild shape, as in here:
Show
At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.
If you want to get a power boost, you can always get that amulet from Magic of Faerun that lets you add +4 to your level for the purpose of Wildshape...
Add the magic item set from Complete Champion for another +1 and you should be fine.
It's really expensive, but I assume you're at high levels if you worry about Elementals and Shapechange.
Now if we go into houserules I wouldn't mind giving you SLAs on a case-by-case basis (I'm sure there are some abusable SLAs somewhere ;)). Templates just open Pandora's box so I'd be much less sympathetic.
As a matter of fact, my DM suggested that I should use the ole Shifter forms progression, thus obtaining Beast, Magical Beast, Construct, Undead and Outsider shapes that would otherwise be unavailable to the updated MMoF.
That would be shortening the gap between the paradigm (in this case, the full-casters) and the shape-shifter. What I don't actually know is if that would be balanced well enough against the system as it is, I mean, it would revert to outdated rules, if you part from a premise that the system always evolves positively.
The most concerned part here is more the DM than myself, as he would like to come to a solution where the party balance is the goal. Herein, thus, lies my major doubt as to make an analogy with the aforementioned rules in the 1st post, or bow to his suggestion.
The opinion of this community about the power curve of the new MMoF in relation to the ole Shifter much interests me.
There are really crazy raw things that one can do with the class. Lots of ways to make it even better, too, like Assume Supernatural Ability and Aberration Wildshape. As though Frozen Wildshape wasn't good enough!
In a strict analysis, it appears that your points are valid enough.
As a matter of fact, my DM suggested that I should use the ole Shifter forms progression, thus obtaining Beast, Magical Beast, Construct, Undead and Outsider shapes that would otherwise be unavailable to the updated MMoF.
That would be shortening the gap between the paradigm (in this case, the full-casters) and the shape-shifter. What I don't actually know is if that would be balanced well enough against the system as it is, I mean, it would revert to outdated rules, if you part from a premise that the system always evolves positively.
The most concerned part here is more the DM than myself, as he would like to come to a solution where the party balance is the goal. Herein, thus, lies my major doubt as to make an analogy with the aforementioned rules in the 1st post, or bow to his suggestion.
The opinion of this community about the power curve of the new MMoF in relation to the ole Shifter much interests me.
Bolding mine... the Beast creature type no longer excists in 3.5, and you can get some, at least the most important magical beast from the Frozen Wildshape feat (12 headed Cyrohydra).
I never played with a Shifter so I can't help you with the comparison.
druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities.
Edit:When I inquired about the possibility of analogically giving MMoF access to elemental's supernatural abilities, I was referring to Elementals as a creature type, not strictly the standard x element Elementals.
That SLA chunk is a curious no-op, since none of the 4 have SLA's.
As for your Edit:, I got that impression from you. It just doesn't follow RAW nor does it (in my view) follow RAI.
I never thought the MMF was a bit too much until someone showed me how it could turn into a Shambling Mound, zap up to insane Constitution
Which is debated, whether or not the "temporary" CON stacks.
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As for powerful MoMF's, I'm currently playing a Cityscape Swarm Wild Shaping Druid 5 and the rest MoMF. Most fun I've ever had (being a swarm.) I doubt I'll shape into much else.
There is an Epic feat (Improved Elemental Wild Shape) which allows you to go outside the standard four elementals with your elemental wild shapes.
So in essence, the OP wants the MoMF to perform like this epic feat? Pre-epic? Granted a lot of epic stuff isn't very "epic" now a days.
Add Assume Su-Ability if you are so inclined, and if your party can take it.
Ok, I am basing all this on my conviction that MoMF sucks, since it's a one-way road with no way to return to anything worthwhile once you're done with it.
Quite frankly, if the MOMF is too weak ... Ok, I am basing all this on my conviction that MoMF sucks
While I don't agree with you here ...
make a druid with Aberration stuff or the Frozen Wildshape. Combine with the Enhance Wildshape (SpC) spell for Ex abilities
Add Assume Su-Ability if you are so inclined, and if your party can take it.
This is a powerful build. I've built and played both of these Druid 20/MoMF Druid. There are a lot of useful Aberrant forms (WilloWisp) and Frozen Wildshape can handle most any combat focus you want (Hydra.) Additionally be a goodie and add Exhalted Wildshape.
Comparing the two in actual play, I still would go with the MoMF route. Call it a personal taste, but I like it better in play than a Druid 20 with a lot of Wild Shape feats. Feats you would likely take as a MoMF anyway (especially Frozen and Exalted.)
Using the Druid 20 route, you spend a lot of 4th level spell castings and you require Fast/Swift Wild Shape feats to be effective (cast Enhanced Wild Shape as a standard then swift or move action to wild shape in the same round.)
While I don't agree with you here ...
Using the Druid 20 route, you spend a lot of 4th level spell castings and you require Fast/Swift Wild Shape feats to be effective (cast Enhanced Wild Shape as a standard then swift or move action to wild shape in the same round.)
You really only need to do that if your DM throws sticks between your legs if you try just always walking around in one form of WS or another. Enhance only needs you to assume WS during its duration, but all the effects are active for the entire duration of the WS, so basically all day, i.e. no buff-round necessary, no in-combat shifting necessary. If you take a scouting AC instead of a melee one, or have a binder in the party, you can easily be prepared for nearly every situation in advance. (Plus, depending on the party, you're house anyway, so pumping your AC might be pushing it.)
A Hat of Disguise may or may not be advantageous to keep up a semblance of social functions, and naturally telepathy is always useful.
Or consider putting on the "beast on a leash" show with another character, in order to increase the ability to enter towns in any sort of monstrous form.
Ok, I am basing all this on my conviction that MoMF sucks, since it's a one-way road with no way to return to anything worthwhile once you're done with it.
I think it stands on its own pretty well, personally. Sure, in a CO world it doesn't compare to Shock Troopers or CoDzillas.
But it fits fairly neatly in a "Practical Op" campaign (so-called Tier 3, but it's not the same Tier system as the one for classes...).
And more importantly to me it's a great toolbox. You get to solve problems in interesting ways by shaping into a weird creature... :D
PS: I've tried the "walking around as a bear" thing and I wouldn't do it again. The DM had no problem with it but it just felt... a bit dumb to me - in hindsight it was one of those occasions where I let optimization take precedence over roleplay & fun.
And that was an off-topic rant. :embarrass
:PS: I've tried the "walking around as a bear" thing and I wouldn't do it again. The DM had no problem with it but it just felt... a bit dumb to me - in hindsight it was one of those occasions where I let optimization take precedence over roleplay & fun.
And that was an off-topic rant. :embarrass
it only feels dumb if you want it to. Get inside the head of this druid; and not just any druid, a MoMF. It is your life's dedication to be at one with the animals (eventually, you'll have the "shapechanger" sub-type) -- someone with that kind of outlook may very well stay in alternate form as much as possible.
not trying to tell you how to play your character; just providing a different perspective.
Druids essentially remain in animal form because they want to be ready for combat. And yes that can be sugarcoated - but then again anything can ! ;)
I was talking about the non-MoMF druids actually. MoMFs have enough Wildshape uses to be whatever they want, and they can speak.
Druids essentially remain in animal form because they want to be ready for combat. And yes that can be sugarcoated - but then again anything can ! ;)
Communication gets to be a problem, though, hence the need for some wiggling in that respect.