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| #1epixtomeNov 21, 2011 9:24:32 | I'm not quite sure where to start with this so I'll just spill it. I'm about 2.5 years into D&D and having tons of fun. I've noticed over the couple years that I have a particular play style that doesn't seem "do-able" using the books/houserules. The closest I've found was the MotUH. Let me explain a bit. I asked my DM while I was playing a ranger/rogue if it was possible to target specific body parts. Trip by targetting feet, blind by targetting eyes. He replied by telling me that that was what criticals were for but otherwise, no. What I seem to enjoy is a level of RP in the mathemetically bound campaign we're playing. MotUH seems to have a level of this because TK can be used in various ways. Lift enemy, drop, move, shield myself, thrust etc. I found a Jean Grey CO on this board and as amazing as it was to see everyone converge on some crazy Min/Max aspects, (controlling 50-100 weapons every round) I found this less interesting than playing a character I would find fun. Of course, the build was for a level 20 character and somehow I found 100 x 1d6 to be OP and less entertaining. It's a bit of a stretch but I'm trying to find a class or combonation of classes that can imitate this versitility in combat. The prime example would be something like Magneto actually, and his ability to deflect energies and blast his own, use a TK like ability to do the defensive and offensive actions I liked above. This and I tend to shy away from the limitations of wizards and psions because they have a list of actions (spells) and there isn't much RP because each spell has it's effect and that's it. I hope I'm explaining this properly :S Would anyone have some suggestions? PS. I don't want to waste the time of anyone trying to help so I'll give you additional details before you crack down. House rules are fairly simple and such. If it's in the book, it's legit. We tend to stick to simple ideas in the campaign that focuses around the players' goals such as, stealing, comanding an army, saving forests etc. Where there is confusion (wrinkles?) in descriptions about stacking etc, he tends to favor the less powerful for fear of having one player OP compared to the group. Other than that, we're an average of level 10-11. I'd prefer to come in at this level but a build that's higher would give me something to work towards. Thank you to anyone who's interested in discussing! |
| #2Tempest_StormwindNov 21, 2011 12:11:50 | First, THANK YOU for providing this much information. Not a lot of people do, really, even though the quality of our help depends on it. The Jean Grey build was an example of what we call, on this board, "theoretical optimization". If you have a math background, this is a boundary values problem, while normal character optimization is an initial conditions problem. Basically we were seeing how far we could go with a neat trick, rather than designing a character like in your request. The easiest way to get MotUH, hands down, is the Ghost savage progression. You can get it with just two levels, and the only drawback to getting it very early is that you'd need to pay for Ghost Touching your later equipment. (Anything you have on you when you go Ghost is turned into ghost equipment "for free", but stuff you buy later has to be enchanted as such.) The only other "force" PrC that I can think of, Argent Savant, is sadly lacking as far as PrCs go. You'd have to settle for readied actions and description here - see below. Since your ghost TK CL is fixed at 12, you're pretty much free to take four levels of anything else and improve it from there. There's even ways to add Concentration as a class skill (Martial Study (Diamond Mind) is probably the easiest, and it gives you some good synergy), so you're not even really limited by your class choice. Three levels of Human Paragon sets Concentration as a class skill no matter what (although you'd do better to select a different skill and just cross-class it if you must on character levels 4 and 5), gets you a nice array of feats and a charisma boost, and is delightfully description-free prior to MotUH so you can fill it in however you want. Two levels of Paladin gives you Divine Grace (boost your saving throws) and an interesting RP angle. Three levels of Rogue gives you Sneak Attack 2d6 and a good array of skills, which isn't insignificant for an incorporeal flyer. Three or four levels of Crusader is identical in flavor to the paladin (well, more or less - the crusader can be other alignments but we've already accepted that for paladins, so...) and has some FUN interactions with the Ghost/MotUH combo (since crusaders have ways of turning their threatened areas into serious pain, especially if you took Combat Reflexes); you can't initiate strikes using Telekinetic Wielder, but boosts and stances should continue to work. Hell, even Fighter 4 gives you some interesting options - including access to the Improved [BullRush / Trip / etc] line of feats that will continue to work through MotUH. (I'm suggesting warrior classes because you use your actual base attack bonus for all violent thrusts in TK, and your CL is fixed as a ghost anyway, so caster levels won't really help much.) Note that this isn't Jean Grey at all: You don't (and in fact, can't) apply Chain Spell to the ghost TK, so the risk of it getting horribly overpowered is lmited. Just remember: MotUH is only FOUR levels long, not five. Fling Skyward gives you nothing that Improved Violent Thrust doesn't. So [Anyclass 4] / Ghost 2 / MotUH 4 is a perfectly viable approach here. If you take the ghost levels earlier (i.e. [Anyclass 1] / Ghost 2 / [Anyclass +3] / MotUH 4), you can even use your 3rd+ feats to augment your spell-like telekinesis. Since the approach is so open - Ghost 2 / MotUH 4 is pretty much as good as it gets for Telekinesis and it only keeps getting better as you scale - I'd suggest thinking about the other aspects of your character and using that for the [Anyclass] and the higher-level goals. This and I tend to shy away from the limitations of wizards and psions because they have a list of actions (spells) and there isn't much RP because each spell has it's effect and that's it As a lifelong psion fan, I have to shudder at this: You didn't know you can change descriptions as you see fit? The fact that wizards, psions, and similar have so many options compared to melee specialists (at least those who aren't martial adepts) gives them that many more options for description and RP. For instance, your Mage Armor spell isn't a barrier around you - it's magically pushing attacks away, creating a forcefield just in time to block blows. A spell that has "save negates" that you save against isn't something you resisted with your physical abilities alone - it's one that you deflected away from you with a reflexive forcefield. And that attack that missed you may very well have missed you simply because you caught it and pushed it away with more telekinesis (this is a bit of a stretch since D&D is all attacker-proactive, but if it makes sense for a missed attack to be parried in melee, why not magically as well?) Granted, the more elaborate you go on this refluffing, the closer you get to mechanical dissociation. The trick is to keep your descriptions true to the mechanics of your abilities, rather than reaching beyond them. Great examples of this can be found here and here for psionics. The spoilerblock in this post gives you a more dramatic example. |
| #3epixtomeNov 21, 2011 13:11:00 | This is a fantastic reply. I love reading and learning; I guess that's a requirement to playing D&D almost. This of course may bring up a bad taste in your mouth but excuse the fact that I'm new. Some people mention a ring of TK, valued somewhere near 75,000 gp. Aside from the idea that this is a bit cheap and allows for more TK casting than a ghost, by the RULES would it be considered a no-no? Chances are like mentioned above, the DM would most likely favor the ring not being sufficient to supply TK since it is the ring doing the casting and I'm only willing it. This would mean that I'm not controlling the TK and therefore would need to somehow be mentally linked to the ring. TS, thank you for the mighty reply. I'll come back sometime with more information for fun. For now I've got to deal with work. In the end, I may just end up going with a Psion because the ring is too expensive to have with a new character and the ghost path for some reason doesn't feel like my DM would accept. But I'll see what he says! :D |
| #4Tempest_StormwindNov 21, 2011 13:23:48 | This of course may bring up a bad taste in your mouth but excuse the fact that I'm new. Some people mention a ring of TK, valued somewhere near 75,000 gp. Aside from the idea that this is a bit cheap and allows for more TK casting than a ghost, by the RULES would it be considered a no-no? The ghost casting is every 1d4 rounds; you're probably concentrating over that entire time given Versatile Telekinesis. That said, generally speaking using items to qualify for PrCs is a no-no, but since it's hard to actually do that most of the time, many DMs allow it. (EDIT: Since, in general, items do not grant feats, I only know of a handful of cases where an item actually could grant you a PrC prerequisite, and none of them are terribly strong. There's even the precedent of the Mindspy (CW), which explicitly works with a Helm of Telepathy. If your DM works with this, even on a case-by-case basis, that's a good place to look for rulings.) This is a question for your DM, not for us. TS, thank you for the mighty reply. I'll come back sometime with more information for fun. For now I've got to deal with work. In the end, I may just end up going with a Psion because the ring is too expensive to have with a new character and the ghost path for some reason doesn't feel like my DM would accept. But I'll see what he says! :D The psionic approach is tricky because there is no psionic "telekinesis". There's Telekinetic Force, Telekinetic Thrust, and Telekinetic Maneuver. This means MotUH in general is harder to use, but you can still stick to the usual telekinesis tricks (such as having your artificer Greater Magic Weapon a pile of arrows, then using Telekinetic Thrust to throw one of them per manifester level at your target.) I address psionics and the MotUH here, and I think you might find that interesting. (EDIT: Actually, that entire threat might be interesting to you, especially if you do like the ghost idea. It reminded me about the ghost guide.) |
| #5epixtomeNov 21, 2011 14:20:37 |
Tempest, would you be willing to clear some of your psion/MotUH post up for me? I understand what you're saying but I don't really get it. To be more clear, could you break down the classes and level of each. I think the rest I could dig up in books myself. What I got from the spoiler section in your post was: with MotUH and psionics, you can still manipulate the spell but need a little more to get settled in. Then there is a part where is sounds like you've got only psionics and the build is simply imitating a MotUH. PS. I think you've turned me onto psionics. I've got a month worth of research just to understand them now :P |
| #6Tempest_StormwindNov 21, 2011 14:54:11 | Tempest, would you be willing to clear some of your psion/MotUH post up for me? I understand what you're saying but I don't really get it. To be more clear, could you break down the classes and level of each. I think the rest I could dig up in books myself. Not without copying the entire MotUH here, which'd be piracy. If you have the book handy, though, that variant should be easy to apply to it directly. Read them side by side. Note that I HAVEN'T TESTED IT, although I have a pretty decent understanding of psionic design. (I was lead author on Dreamscarred Press' first book, and they basically do the psionics for Pathfinder now. I'm not taking credit for that - they've got a VERY talented team there! I'm just using that as a comparison.) What I got from the spoiler section in your post was: with MotUH and psionics, you can still manipulate the spell but need a little more to get settled in. Then there is a part where is sounds like you've got only psionics and the build is simply imitating a MotUH. What I did was adjust the MotUH to be compatible with psionics, which doesn't have a "Telekinesis" power to qualify (in spite of MotUH's loose requirements), and has mechanical differences in how it handles telekinesis (through three separate powers of different (lower) levels rather than a single versatile power). The nutshell idea was to provide augments to the assorted TK powers to allow them to emulate each other similar to how Versatile Telekinesis works. The rest was just game balance and clarification. As usual, the MotUH does not advance psionic manifesting prowess, except for the telekinesis effects themselves. (This is why I suggested a Force ardent with Practiced Manifester, and why the prerequisites are written the way they are - the Force mantle doesn't have Telekinetic Thrust, and wilders have too few powers known to justify spending that many on redundant effects.) If it looks hard to follow, and you haven't seen how psionics work, I'd wager the confusion is on how augmentation works. See below for more on that. PS. I think you've turned me onto psionics. I've got a month worth of research just to understand them now :P For what it's worth, I wrote the FAQ on them. There's also a New DM/Player's Guide, which was eaten by the internets and needs to be reposted... thankfully I saved a copy. I think Dropbox should work to share it. |