Master Specialist/IotSV route beginning 3rd level? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Master Specialist/IotSV route beginning 3rd level?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
will_shakespeare
Sep 02, 2008 14:53:43 Hi guys,

atm i'm planning a Wizard (Abjurer) / Master Specialist / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil build, maybe with a bit of Archmage at the end.
My question is: is there a way to enter MS at level 3? any way to get the level 2 spells requirement for MS with a feat or something?

Thanks for your efforts. Appreciate any help.

Cheerio

Will
#2
shokatsuryou
Sep 02, 2008 20:38:40
My question is: is there a way to enter MS at level 3? any way to get the level 2 spells requirement for MS with a feat or something?

With several feats (and possibly a rules debate with your DM) it might be possible with:

Heighten Spell and Earth Spell (from Races of Stone). With Earth Spell, when you heighten a spell to 1st level, it counts as a 2nd level spell. Of course, to utilize this trick you need some way to get 4 feats by level 2: Spell Focus (prereq for MS), Heighten Spell, Earth Sense (prereq for Earth Spell) and Earth Spell.
#3
totenkinder
Sep 02, 2008 21:58:05
With several feats (and possibly a rules debate with your DM) it might be possible with:

Heighten Spell and Earth Spell (from Races of Stone). With Earth Spell, when you heighten a spell to 1st level, it counts as a 2nd level spell. Of course, to utilize this trick you need some way to get 4 feats by level 2: Spell Focus (prereq for MS), Heighten Spell, Earth Sense (prereq for Earth Spell) and Earth Spell.

Human or Strongheart Halfling with 2 flaws?
#4
golem1972
Sep 03, 2008 3:30:32 This one has caused a lot of debate, and most DMs probably won't allow it, but here goes.

Requires 2 feats. A human, or any race with one flaw can do this.

Spell Focus (school of specialization), and Precocious Apprentice. The debate is whether or not PA actually allows you to cast a second level spell, and if one second level spell is enough (PrC calls for ability to cast second level spells) (compared to a 3rd level wizard with minimal int (one spell slot per day) or 4th level sorcerer (one spell known)).

Basically, a specialist wizard 2 (or wiz 1, any other class 1) with those 2 feats qualifies for Master Specialist. The trade-off is one level early entry for one feat that becomes useless at 4th level unless you can retrain it.
#5
will_shakespeare
Sep 03, 2008 3:44:20 Thanks so far! I'll check these options and look what of them is pure cheese and what not. I like playing powerful chars and they're generally accepted in our group, but used methods in char building should be not to cheesy.

And yes, PHB II and retraining is allowed in our group. I'll check on that option, too.

Cheerio

Will
#6
will_shakespeare
Sep 03, 2008 6:30:37 Since we don't use flaws in our group, the Heighten / Earth Spell method is not possible.
I'll be taking Strongheart Halfling as race, so two feats to work with.
The Precocious Apprentice approach will do, IMO. This feat grants you the ability to cast one single 2nd level spell with a Caster Level DC 8 check. IMO you are truly casting a 2nd level spell with that. That'll do. Will check that with my DM.

Thanks again, lads.
#7
keithio
Sep 03, 2008 12:54:34 Reading this thread made me really want to build a Wizard2/MasterSpecialist10/InitiateOfTheSevenfoldVeil7/Archmage1 dispell build, so I looked into precocious apprentice.

Now, I'm not your DM, so what I say is moot, but here it is anyway:

As far as RAW goes, the first paragraph of precocious appentice clearly gives you the ability to cast 2nd level spells, and qualifies you...

HOWEVER, then the 2nd paragraph of precocious apprentice's description kicks in. Since we rules-lawyered our way into qualifying ourselves as "able to cast 2nd level spells", the benefit of precocious apprentice changes.

We lose the ability to cast the spell, and just get a 2nd level spell slot, which we can't use to cast any spells. We are no longer able to cast 2nd level spells, we no longer qualify for any PrC requiring such.

So, in short, here is an entirely equivalent wording of precocious apprentice (Definately not RAI, but 100% RAW):

Precocious Apprentice:
Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster level 1st.
Benefit: You gain a second level spell slot.
Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 will_shakespeare Sep 02, 2008 14:53:43	Hi guys, atm i'm planning a Wizard (Abjurer) / Master Specialist / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil build, maybe with a bit of Archmage at the end. My question is: is there a way to enter MS at level 3? any way to get the level 2 spells requirement for MS with a feat or something? Thanks for your efforts. Appreciate any help. Cheerio Will
#2 shokatsuryou Sep 02, 2008 20:38:40	My question is: is there a way to enter MS at level 3? any way to get the level 2 spells requirement for MS with a feat or something? With several feats (and possibly a rules debate with your DM) it might be possible with: Heighten Spell and Earth Spell (from Races of Stone). With Earth Spell, when you heighten a spell to 1st level, it counts as a 2nd level spell. Of course, to utilize this trick you need some way to get 4 feats by level 2: Spell Focus (prereq for MS), Heighten Spell, Earth Sense (prereq for Earth Spell) and Earth Spell.
#3 totenkinder Sep 02, 2008 21:58:05	With several feats (and possibly a rules debate with your DM) it might be possible with: Heighten Spell and Earth Spell (from Races of Stone). With Earth Spell, when you heighten a spell to 1st level, it counts as a 2nd level spell. Of course, to utilize this trick you need some way to get 4 feats by level 2: Spell Focus (prereq for MS), Heighten Spell, Earth Sense (prereq for Earth Spell) and Earth Spell. Human or Strongheart Halfling with 2 flaws?
#4 golem1972 Sep 03, 2008 3:30:32	This one has caused a lot of debate, and most DMs probably won't allow it, but here goes. Requires 2 feats. A human, or any race with one flaw can do this. Spell Focus (school of specialization), and Precocious Apprentice. The debate is whether or not PA actually allows you to cast a second level spell, and if one second level spell is enough (PrC calls for ability to cast second level spells) (compared to a 3rd level wizard with minimal int (one spell slot per day) or 4th level sorcerer (one spell known)). Basically, a specialist wizard 2 (or wiz 1, any other class 1) with those 2 feats qualifies for Master Specialist. The trade-off is one level early entry for one feat that becomes useless at 4th level unless you can retrain it.
#5 will_shakespeare Sep 03, 2008 3:44:20	Thanks so far! I'll check these options and look what of them is pure cheese and what not. I like playing powerful chars and they're generally accepted in our group, but used methods in char building should be not to cheesy. And yes, PHB II and retraining is allowed in our group. I'll check on that option, too. Cheerio Will
#6 will_shakespeare Sep 03, 2008 6:30:37	Since we don't use flaws in our group, the Heighten / Earth Spell method is not possible. I'll be taking Strongheart Halfling as race, so two feats to work with. The Precocious Apprentice approach will do, IMO. This feat grants you the ability to cast one single 2nd level spell with a Caster Level DC 8 check. IMO you are truly casting a 2nd level spell with that. That'll do. Will check that with my DM. Thanks again, lads.
#7 keithio Sep 03, 2008 12:54:34	Reading this thread made me really want to build a Wizard2/MasterSpecialist10/InitiateOfTheSevenfoldVeil7/Archmage1 dispell build, so I looked into precocious apprentice. Now, I'm not your DM, so what I say is moot, but here it is anyway: As far as RAW goes, the first paragraph of precocious appentice clearly gives you the ability to cast 2nd level spells, and qualifies you... HOWEVER, then the 2nd paragraph of precocious apprentice's description kicks in. Since we rules-lawyered our way into qualifying ourselves as "able to cast 2nd level spells", the benefit of precocious apprentice changes. We lose the ability to cast the spell, and just get a 2nd level spell slot, which we can't use to cast any spells. We are no longer able to cast 2nd level spells, we no longer qualify for any PrC requiring such. So, in short, here is an entirely equivalent wording of precocious apprentice (Definately not RAI, but 100% RAW): Precocious Apprentice: Prerequisites: Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15, arcane caster level 1st. Benefit: You gain a second level spell slot. Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character.