Races:
Illumian: (Races of Destiny) They already get a +2 caster level boost with their sigils, nice synergy. Also, I think Spellthief fits illumians quite well thematically.
Major Bloodlines: (Unearthed Arcana) Useful if you have lots of spellcasting classes. It adds to all of your classes' spellcasting. This gets crazy once we add things like Knight of the Weave and Sublime Chord.
Classes
Master Spellthief has simple requirements - ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and the ability steal spell. A single level of Spellthief qualifies almost any arcane spellcaster for this feat; Spellthief qualifies by itself at level 8 (important for Chameleons).
Beguiler: (PHB 2) Int-based, 2nd-level spells at 4th level, similar flavor with Spellthief, already casts at light armor, limited spell list, knows all the spells in the list, good skill points.
Dread Necromancer: (Heroes of Horror) Cha-based, 2nd-level spells at 4th level, gets turning, already casts at light armor, limited spell list, knows all the spells in the list. Good for Cha-synergy builds.
Duskblade: (PHB 2) Int-based, 2nd-level spells at 5th, already casts at light armor (or better), full BAB, Arcane Channeling.
Sorcerer: (PHB) Cha-based, 2nd level spells at 4th.
Warmage: (Complete Arcane) Cha-based, 2nd-level spells at 4th, limited spell list, knows all the spells in the list, blasting is usually consideres subpar.
Wizard: (PHB) Int-based, 2nd-level spells at 3rd.
Wu Jen: (Complete Arcane) Int-based, 2nd-level spells at 3rd, weird list.
Feats:
Battle Caster: (Complete Arcane) Allows you to cast with medium armor. Not OMFG, but nice.
Practiced Spellcaster: (Complete Arcane/Divine) Remember, you apply effects in the order you choose. Apply Practiced Spellcaster first, then apply the effects of Spellthief and that's +4 to your caster level (won't work with 10th level Chameleons, though).
Prestige Classes:
This is the real place for abuse. Some prestige classes have augmented caster levels that allows for some really good benefits.
Abjurant Champion: (Complete Mage) The Martial Arcanist ability sets the CL of one of your classes to your BAB. This could lead to killer caster levels in gish builds, specially those with fast-paced spellcasting.
Chameleon: (Races of Destiny) Their arcane spellcaster is Chameleon level x2. With this, you can get CL 30 without any effort (Spellthief 10/Chameleon 10). Remember, Chameleon spellcasting can't fill any prerequisites. An Illumian Spellthief 12/Chameleon 8 (or any other combination of Spellthief 1 and 11 levels of arcane spellcasting class) with Master Spellthief has a base CL of 16 from Chameleon, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +2 from Illumian and +12 from Master Spellthief for a grand total of CL 34 (6th level spells).
Green Star Adept: (Complete Arcane) A Green Star Adept adds his class level to his CL in other arcane spellcasting classes. Thing is, the Green Star adepts also increases spellcasting (and caster levels) in even levels. That's basically +15 caster levels in 10 levels. Illumian Spellthief 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Green Star Adept 9/Abjurant Champion 5 casts as Sorcerer 13, has BAB 15 and CL 45: 15 (Martial Arcanist) + 4 (Practiced Spellcaster) + 2 (Illumian) + 9 (Green Star Adept) + 15 (Master Spellthief). AVOID THE TENTH LEVEL, CONSTITUTION IS NICE.
Knight of the Weave: (Champions of Valor) Your caster level for Knight of the Weave is your Knight of the Weave level plus levels in any other arcane spellcasting class you might have. This is basically double Master Spellthief. Illumian Spellthief 10/Knight of the Weave 10 has BAB 14 and gets CL 42 (5th level spells).
Spellwarp Sniper: (Complete Scoundrel) Converts Wings of Flurry to a ray spell, removing the save.
Sublime Chord: (Complete Arcane) Adds her class level to the levels in one arcane spellcaster class and has her own class list. Gets an infinite loop to CL with Knight of the Weave. Otherwise, works the same as Knight of the Weave but with poor BAB, less HP, more skill points and 4 to 9 spells instead of 1 to 5.
Ultimate Magus: (Complete Mage) Master Spellthief sets the caster level of all spellcasting classes to the same level (before you add other effects), meaning you get to progress the class you choose fully with UM. Sadly, Spellthief only qualifies for the spontaneous side at level 4, meaning you'd lose 9th level spells (well, you could do that thing with Virtuoso and Sublime Chord, I guess, but then the whole point of UM is kinda moot). Also, gets +4 CL to all arcane spells.
Items
Mithril Breastplate: Best light armor you'll find (aside from Celestial Armor). Avoid the elven chain, it's a trap.
Spells:
This is a list of spells with uncapped effects depending on caster level or spells greatly enhanced by your outrageous CL. Thanks a lot to everyone that helped out with this list, specially mplindustires, callen and arcane-surge.
Algid Enhancement: (Frostburn) A Cleric spell, and not a domain spell, so kinda hard to get in your arcane spell list. But this is pure gold. You gain a deflection bonus to AC, temporary hit points, enhancement bonus on attack rolls and unnamed bonus os saves versus fire, all based on CL and all uncapped. With a CL of 45, that's +16 to AC, 1d8+15 hit points, +16 to attacks and +17 on saves versus fire. Oh, duration is 24 hours. You do need the cold subtype, though.
Blasphemy/Holy Word: (PHB) You need Arcane Disciple and Wis 17 to get this (and you can't be neutral)... but it's totally worth it (and gamebreaking) when you get it. You can get an auto-kill, NO SAVE, on any creatures with up to caster level-10 Hit Dice. It's also an area effect and has other uses. Did I mention it's an area kill with NO SAVE?
Cloud of Knives: (PHB II) Each round as a free action, attacks one target with a dagger for 1d4 + CL/3 (max +5) dmg with an attack bonus of caster level + Int/Cha. Add Hunter's Eye for massive ownage.
Hunter's Eye: (PHB II) Sneak Attack = 1/3 of your CL. 15d6 extra damage? Yes, please.
Maw of Chaos: (Spell Compendium) A 9th-level Abjuration (double duration for Abjurant Champion). Uncapped area damage with a Will save to avoid dazing for CL rounds is already pretty good, but with high Caster Level it's amazing. Does not affect chaotic creatures.
Mind Poison: (Spell Compendium) A poison that deals 1d10 Wisdom damage with a DC equal to 1/2 your caster level plus Int/Cha. Not overpowering, but interesting. Lots of things are immune to poison, though.
Phantasmal Thief: (Spell Compendium) Gives a whole new meaning to spellthief. Stealing was never so easy...
Steeldance: (Spell Compendium) A pair of bladed weapons (restricted to swords or daggers, but not by size or anything, so it could be two Colossal greatswords, I guess) attack with a bonus equal to caster level + Int/Cha. Could be used to disarm and other stuff even if you can't use ridiculously sized weapons.
Wings of Flurry: (Races of the Dragon) Uncapped area force damage. Nothing resists force damage (it even affects incorporeal people). Your only problem is evasion - enter Spellwarp Sniper...
Body Outside of Body: (Complete Arcane) is a level 7 Wujen spell that creatures one duplicate for every 5 caster levels. Its not that amazing, but it doesn't have a cap... Actually, if you cast Giant Size first, its pretty crazy.
Earthen Grasp (Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium) has a BAB = your caster level and Str = 14 + 2/3 CL. That can give Strength scores up in the 30s easy with the most basic of the suggested builds.
Sword of Deception (Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium) also has a BAB = caster level, and it can make full attacks. Its damage is fairly weak, but it stacks save penalties pretty high, and it also may be able to make disarm checks...
Darts of Life (Complete Champion) is a level 5 Cleric spell (so obviously its a challenge), but if you use a Full-round action, you can heal someone (or harm an undead) for (uncapped) CLd8s. (There's also no save for undead, though it does require an RTA).
Otiluke's Suppressing Field (Complete Mage) can shut down a lot of spells, especially given its amazingly high DC (11 + CL), though, obviously, its no AMF.
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (Dragon Magic) gives you +1/2 CL on melee damage rolls for CL/rounds. I'm amazed nobody caught this one yet. Seems like it ought to be a staple of gish builds (which makes me afraid it was errataed or reprinted sucky or something). Excellent find, mlpindustries!
Black Tentacles (PHB/SRD): The BAB isn't capped, thus neither is the grapple check.
Divine Power (PHB/SRD): Although the BAB and Strength bonuses are capped, the temporary HP are not. You can get it with Arcane Disciple.
Hammer of Righteousness (Book of Exalted Deeds): Think Wings of Flurry. Now think of it with a Fortitude save. Now think of it dealing d8's against evil targets. If you can think that, you just thought of Hammer of Righteousness.
Mithril Breastplate +X, of course.
Deadly Precision weapons if Sneak Attack focused.
needs some spacing... edit: much nicer!
Secondly, we need a list of uncapped spells.
Build idea: Unseen Seer-->Hunter's Eye-->Sneak Attack!
Secondly, we need a list of uncapped spells.
Gee, forgot to add the spells ^^
For now I only have Hunter's Eye and Wings of Flurry.
I'm curious about the interaction between Master Spellthief and Practiced Spellcaster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your caster level starts to get higher than your hit dice, Practiced Spellcaster doesn't work anymore, right?
Yeah, but you apply stuff in the order you choose.
CL of 35, BaB 19 and some nice Swiftblade stuff. While propably not as sick as you can get, it's definitely very powerful and interesting. Practiced Spellcaster - Spellthief could further rise the CL by 4, to 39. One of nice gish builds out there.
To be honest, I'm (at the moment) not shure whats the Caster Level is at the end...
Hunter's Eye has already been mentioned, but the DC for Mind Poison (SpC) is uncapped and based on caster level.
Algid Enhancement (Frostburn) is uncapped bonuses to hit and deflection to AC, among other things, so long as you have the cold subtype (Mantle of the Icy Soul, anyone?).
The disarm check for a Phantasmal Thief (SpC) stealing things is based on your caster level. So is the bonus to hit of Steeldance (SpC) and Cloud of Knives (PHB II).
Also, a question. How would Master Spellthief interact with Alternative Source Spell (Dragon I don't Remember, 324 maybe? It's in the crystalkeep feat index too). The feat changes a divine spell to an arcane spell (Master Spellthief says "All arcane spells"). Could be good with Chameleon if you can qualify for the feat.
Skydragonknight: You are absolutely right. We do need a list of uncapped spells. I can think of a few.
Hunter's Eye has already been mentioned, but the DC for Mind Poison (SpC) is uncapped and based on caster level.
Algid Enhancement (Frostburn) is uncapped bonuses to hit and deflection to AC, among other things, so long as you have the cold subtype (Mantle of the Icy Soul, anyone?).
The disarm check for a Phantasmal Thief (SpC) stealing things is based on your caster level. So is the bonus to hit of Steeldance (SpC) and Cloud of Knives (PHB II).
Also, a question. How would Master Spellthief interact with Alternative Source Spell (Dragon I don't Remember, 324 maybe? It's in the crystalkeep feat index too). The feat changes a divine spell to an arcane spell (Master Spellthief says "All arcane spells"). Could be good with Chameleon if you can qualify for the feat.
Wow, this Alternative Source thing is amazing. Well, there is already Unseen Seer and stuff, but even then. Also, thanks for mentioning the spells, I'll check them out.
Ultimate Magus build with Master Spellthief.
To be honest, I'm (at the moment) not shure whats the Caster Level is at the end...
I see no problems on the caster level thing, here. It's Wizard casting + Beguiler casting + 1 (Spellthief).
I see no problems on the caster level thing, here. It's Wizard casting + Beguiler casting + 1 (Spellthief).
Then its CL 31
18 Wizard
08 Beguiler
01 Spellthief
04 Arcane Spellpower
Then its CL 31
18 Wizard
08 Beguiler
01 Spellthief
04 Arcane Spellpower
You could get CL 33 as a Wizard (Illumian) and 37 with Beguiler (Illumian + Practiced Spellcaster), I guess.
EDIT: Updated some stuff. Help on spells would be appreciated.
cu
Of course, that ain't RAW, but four DM's I've asked about the feat have modified it that way...
Build idea: Unseen Seer-->Hunter's Eye-->Sneak Attack!
Secondly, we need a list of uncapped spells.
Not shure, isnt the name Hunters Mark?
And yea, Unseen Seer should go into the PRC section (at least Unseen Seer 2).
cu
Not shure, isnt the name Hunters Mark?
And yea, Unseen Seer should go into the PRC section (at least Unseen Seer 2).
cu
No, its Hunter's Eye. Hunter's Mark is a WoW ability :P
cu
Rogue 1/Bloodline 3/Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 1/Mindbender 1/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 1/Arcane Trickster 2/Unseen Seer 2( for a total of 4)/Spellwarp Sniper 1
Feats
Master Spellthief
Sanctum Spell (for early entry)
Caster Level is X at lvl 15.
1(Sorcerer 1)+3=4
1(Spellthief 1)+3=4
1(Mindbender 1)+3=4
4(Unseen Seer 4)+3=7
1(Spellwarp Sniper 2)+3=4
2(Arcane Trickster)+3=5
28 at lvl 15, 26 for non divination spells, 30 for divination spells.
Sneak Attack+Sudden Strike
2d6 (Rogue 1+3 bloodline)
1d6 (Spellthief 1+3 bloodline)
3d6 (Unseen Seer 4+3 bloodline)
2d6 (Spellwarp Sniper 2+3 bloodline)
2d6 (Arcane Trickster 2+3 bloodline)
Total is 10d6 and can add another 10d6 through hunter's eye.
Has 9 levels of casting, and thus can do wings of flurry, which is an instantly stun lock due to spellwarping.
Stuff
Why Rogue? And your CL is not taking Master Spellthief into account, is it?
Why Rogue? And your CL is not taking Master Spellthief into account, is it?
mostly for skills else it would be very difficult to qualify for unseen seer and mindbender with bloodline levels.
Also bloodline+1 level of rogue yields +2d6 sneak attack
And unless I did my math incorrectly master spellthief is in there
And you can sneak attack yourself, for 1 hp subdual.
Prolly need a minor healing spell sitting around somewhere.
Recharge thyself.
Sweet.
Warlock 1 provides an at-will SLA.
And you can sneak attack yourself, for 1 hp subdual.
Prolly need a minor healing spell sitting around somewhere.
Recharge thyself.
Sweet.
Sorry, but I don't understand what you are talking about.
Sorry, houserule ... nevermind.
(we) dumped the spell-likes into a pool, and extracted them.
Trying to make an un-optimized ST keep up with 9th level casters.
As usual, I was going for a recharge set-up.
The psionic adaptation version, can benefit from someone else's recharging, but only a little bit.
Ultimate Magus build with Master Spellthief.
To be honest, I'm (at the moment) not sure what's the Caster Level is at the end...
If you took Sanctum Spell for early entry and practised caster (spellthief)
you'd have 35 @level 15
spellthief 1/wizard 4/UltimateMagus 10/(xyz 5)
not sure what xyz should be, but getting another level of Wizard would allow you take the spontaneous divination ability, and with both Spellthief and UltimateMagus both having UMD you'll be able to use any magic item you come across.
Perhaps you could also become a focused specialist, add in battle caster and medium armour prof, and you can be casting in mithril full plate.... with a caster level of 40?
If you took Sanctum Spell for early entry and practised caster (spellthief)
you'd have 35 @level 15
spellthief 1/wizard 4/UltimateMagus 10/(xyz 5)
Unfortunately, Spellthief doesn't have a caster level before 4th level, so there is nothing for Practiced Spellcaster to add to. This is different than simply having a caster level of 0.
Moreover, increasing caster level doesn't effect spells known or ability to cast higher level spells, only duration and level-based effects for spells...and Spellthiefs don't even have 0-level spells to Sanctum into 1sts.
There is merit to Sanctum Spell...it just doesn't combo well with Spellthief, unfortunately.
I'm not sure if I am understanding this feat at all. But it seems that some interpretations of it are extremely generous to the character.
Let's say I'm a spellthief 1/sorcerer 4 and have master spellthief as a feat. If I am understanding the "stacking" of levels that means my caster level for both spellthief and sorcerer is 4 because the spellthief has no caster levels until he reaches level 4, at which time his caster levels are 1/2 of his spellthief levels. However, because the feat also says that arcane levels stack for the purpose of determining which spells to steal, the spellthief is at four caster levels instead of zero and as such can steal second level spells? Is that right?
But a level 1 spellthief can't hold a second level spell, so even if he can "steal" it, he still can't use it, so it would just poof away, right?
Looking at a spellthief 4/ sorcerer 2 build, would the following apply?
Caster level 4 (2 from spellthief, 2 from sorcerer).
Can steal second level spells, and can hold up to four levels of spells.
Or is it that he can steal third level spells because his four spellthief levels allow him to steal second level spells, and his additional two sorcerer levels stack to allow him to steal third level spells?
See, what is confusing me is that the wording of the feat says "caster levels stack" because spellthief caster levels are not equal to spellthief LEVELS. A sixth level spellthief can clearly steal third level spells and hold up to six spell levels. But can a spellthief 4/sorcerer 2 do the same thing? Here's the confusion, the number and level of spells a spellthief can steal is not based on his CASTER LEVEL, it's based on his SPELLTHIEF LEVEL. So how does stacking of caster levels equate into stacking of class level for this purpose?
I'm so confused...
But a level 1 spellthief can't hold a second level spell, so even if he can "steal" it, he still can't use it, so it would just poof away, right?
Yup. Still good, no?
Master Spellthief stacks spellthief levels and arcane levels for purposes of CL (giving very funny results for 1/2 CL/level base classes). It doesn't advance the steal spell ability's spell storage portion (there might be some way to reuse it immediately without storage - I'm not sure). It also gives you light armor casting.
You should get CScoundrel: its a great resource for sneaky types in general!
Yup. Still good, no?
Master Spellthief stacks spellthief levels and arcane levels for purposes of CL (giving very funny results for 1/2 CL/level base classes). It doesn't advance the steal spell ability's spell storage portion (there might be some way to reuse it immediately without storage - I'm not sure). It also gives you light armor casting.
You should get CScoundrel: its a great resource for sneaky types in general!
But that's not what the description that I read on the Wizards page SAYS. It does not say "stacks spellthief levels and arcane levels for purposes of CL". It says "stacks spellthief and arcane CASTER LEVELS" which is a completely different thing. Unless the summary they posted on their website is incorrect.
This is why I'm confused. People are saying that "master spellthief" has effects that are based on BASE SPELLTHIEF LEVELS but the actual description I read says the effects are based on SPELLTHIEF CASTER LEVELS which is NOT the same thing.
The light armor casting alone makes it a good feat. But all those single level dips into ST to get the feat and then the extrapolation of that to the ability to steal ninth level spells and all sorts of other crazy things (like having 40 caster levels) just don't seem to be supported by the actual feat description.
And it is plenty good enough without turning it into a game-breaking phenomenon, I think.
Also, as I read the spellthief's abilities, even if you could manage to create a character that could "steal" a spell he could not "hold" then without "holding" it the spell would simply dissipate.
I will tell you this, I've been a DM for over 20 years and I would not allow a spellthief to have the ability to steal a spell that was a higher level than he could hold. That just doesn't make sense.
By the way, here is the summary that is posted on the Wizards feat index page:
Spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack for steal spell and arcane caster level; cast arcane spells in light armor
It says "spellcaster levels" plain and simple. And a spellthief has exactly ZERO spellcaster levels until he is level 4. But what makes this worse is that spellthief spellcaster levels have NO EFFECT on spell stealing. Spell stealing is ONLY affected by ACTUAL SPELLTHIEF LEVELS. This description is broken. It describes a situation that cannot exist. You can stack all the caster levels you want, but according to the spellthief description, the ONLY affect that has is on the caster level of the spells that the spellthief can cast. It cannot, by the description of the spellthief, affect the spells he can STEAL.
Is it possible that this is being read as "Spellthief levels and arcane spellcaster levels" ? I think that is how some people are interpreting it. But the wording is ambiguous. Is there a ruling from Wizards on this?
Spellthief 1/Warmage 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Full-Caster 5
18th level Wizard casting (9th), 8th level Warmage casting (4th), CL 31 with Arcane spells (conservative estimate).
Something worth mentioning: any sneak attack can steal a spell, including those made with weaponlike spells. This seems most important to Warmages as they can use their battery of offensive spells to quickly burn away the top level or two of spells wielded by enemy spellcasters, even if they can't fire them back at them.
Spellthief 1/Warmage 1/Wizard 3/Ultimate Magus 10/Full-Caster 5
18th level Wizard casting (9th), 8th level Warmage casting (4th), CL 31 with Arcane spells (conservative estimate).
I know that this is the sort of build that people keep saying can do these sorts of things, but I'm just not sure I'm buying it. Has there been any ruling on this?
For example, as I said, I would not allow a character to "steal" a spell he could not hold, so this build could only steal first level spells. I think this is something that Wizards should rule on. It's important.
Now even if this was a 20th level spellthief, why you think you could "burn away" the opposing spellcasters "top level spells" is also something of a mystery to me. How would you do that? According to the spellthief description you have to request a specific spell. If you guess wrong, it only says that you steal a "random spell". It doesn't say a "random spell of the same level". You are just as likely to steal "read magic" as you are to steal "prismatic sphere" if you attempt to steal "time stop" and he doesn't have it. In fact you are probably much more likely to steal a low level spell since there are a lot more of them.
Now if you ARE a 20th level spellthief, on your second attempt you would know what spells (of that level that you just successfully stole, which could be a low level) the spell caster has because that's a 13th level spellthief ability. But it's NOT an ability that this build would have, so you would be guessing every time. After three rounds of sneak attacking a 20th level wizard, you might end up with "sleep," "mage hand" and "gust of wind". While the opposing wizard hammers you with "power word death" or whatever. So you better be dang good at guessing what spells a wizard has.
But this entire line of reasoning assumes a reading of the feat that I don't think is clear. It is not how I would interpret it.
But that's not what the description that I read on the Wizards page SAYS. It does not say "stacks spellthief levels and arcane levels for purposes of CL". It says "stacks spellthief and arcane CASTER LEVELS" which is a completely different thing. Unless the summary they posted on their website is incorrect.
This is why I'm confused. People are saying that "master spellthief" has effects that are based on BASE SPELLTHIEF LEVELS but the actual description I read says the effects are based on SPELLTHIEF CASTER LEVELS which is NOT the same thing.
The light armor casting alone makes it a good feat. But all those single level dips into ST to get the feat and then the extrapolation of that to the ability to steal ninth level spells and all sorts of other crazy things (like having 40 caster levels) just don't seem to be supported by the actual feat description.
And it is plenty good enough without turning it into a game-breaking phenomenon, I think.
Also, as I read the spellthief's abilities, even if you could manage to create a character that could "steal" a spell he could not "hold" then without "holding" it the spell would simply dissipate.
I will tell you this, I've been a DM for over 20 years and I would not allow a spellthief to have the ability to steal a spell that was a higher level than he could hold. That just doesn't make sense.
By the way, here is the summary that is posted on the Wizards feat index page:
It says "spellcaster levels" plain and simple. And a spellthief has exactly ZERO spellcaster levels until he is level 4. But what makes this worse is that spellthief spellcaster levels have NO EFFECT on spell stealing. Spell stealing is ONLY affected by ACTUAL SPELLTHIEF LEVELS. This description is broken. It describes a situation that cannot exist. You can stack all the caster levels you want, but according to the spellthief description, the ONLY affect that has is on the caster level of the spells that the spellthief can cast. It cannot, by the description of the spellthief, affect the spells he can STEAL.
Is it possible that this is being read as "Spellthief levels and arcane spellcaster levels" ? I think that is how some people are interpreting it. But the wording is ambiguous. Is there a ruling from Wizards on this?
Your biggest problem is you need to read the feat from the book to properly
use it . It has a lot more information that you need to know before using it.
That being said , your arcane spell caster levels stack with spellthief for the
steal spell ability example spellthief 1 , wizard 5 ,would steal spells like a 6th
level spellthief .
Note on the spellthief description of steal spell it says class level not spellthief level for capacity of spells.
Your biggest problem is you need to read the feat from the book to properly
use it . It has a lot more information that you need to know before using it.
That being said , your arcane spell caster levels stack with spellthief for the
steal spell ability example spellthief 1 , wizard 5 ,would steal spells like a 6th
level spellthief .
Note on the spellthief description of steal spell it says class level not spellthief level for capacity of spells.
Cragg: ???? How is "class level" not "spellthief level" aren't those by definition the exact same thing when the rules are describing the spellthief class? Or are you suggesting that a first level spellthief could take 17 levels of barbarian and then hold 18 levels of spells because my "class level" is 18? Do you seriously interpret the rule that way?
I am going to have to read the description in the book because the summary clearly says that spellthief "spellcaster" levels stack, not "class levels." If the book description says otherwise, I am surprised that the summary would be so misleading.
Besides, I think that's a bad rule anyway, this feat is like five feats in one, it's simply unbalancing the way I see it interpreted here on the boards. Somebody pointed out that it's like taking four practiced spellcaster feats without even talking about the spell stealing or the ability to cast spells in light armor. In my mind there is simply NO WAY the designers intended to create a feat that is like getting five feats at once.
Cragg: ???? How is "class level" not "spellthief level" aren't those by definition the exact same thing when the rules are describing the spellthief class? Or are you suggesting that a first level spellthief could take 17 levels of barbarian and then hold 18 levels of spells because my "class level" is 18? Do you seriously interpret the rule that way?
Sorry I posted before editing what I was typing and thinking
what I meant to type was master spellthief gives you the ability to steal spells like you are a spellthief of your spellthief + arcane spell caster level which implies you can store the spells you steal , the feat also gives example of stealing a spell of higher level .
snip
I am going to have to read the description in the book because the summary clearly says that spellthief "spellcaster" levels stack, not "class levels." If the book description says otherwise, I am surprised that the summary would be so misleading.
Besides, I think that's a bad rule anyway, this feat is like five feats in one, it's simply unbalancing the way I see it interpreted here on the boards. Somebody pointed out that it's like taking four practiced spellcaster feats without even talking about the spell stealing or the ability to cast spells in light armor. In my mind there is simply NO WAY the designers intended to create a feat that is like getting five feats at once.
The book description does say class levels .
I would also like to see some clarification on how it interacts with prestige classes with regards to caster level stacking .
I'm going to ask my DM if I can redo my character taking this feat into account. I would absolutely have taken this feat if I had known it was this powerful.
Wow, I guess I'm just going to have to accept that this amazing feat exists and is intended to do what it says.
I'm going to ask my DM if I can redo my character taking this feat into account. I would absolutely have taken this feat if I had known it was this powerful.
Mainly, read the feat, tho.
I am looking at the book right now, but dont get exactly how you get like 31CL at lvl20.... by reading it you can only get to 20.... can someone explain it to me?
Its explained in the first post under the Prestige Classes!
still not totally clear, but I guess that since these prestige classes let your CL be e.g. your BAB, you can add your 'augmented' CL be added to your 'Normal' CL for every such PrC, right?!
Yes. From the FAQ, you add CL boosters in whichever method would be most beneficial, so all of it stacks; combine with faster-than normal CL advancing PrCs and you get ridiculous CLs.
1 (Spellthief) + 18 (Wizard) + 8 (Warmage) + 4 (Ultimate Magus) = 31
A more liberal estimate would add the Ultimate Magus bonus to both Wizard and Warmage before applying Master Spellthief, which would yield a CL of 35, but I don't believe the feat supports that interpretation.
Black Tentacles (PHB/SRD): The BAB isn't capped, thus neither is the grapple check.
Divine Power (PHB/SRD): Although the BAB and Strength bonuses are capped, the temporary HP are not.
Hammer of Righteousness (BoED): Uncapped force damage with a Fortitude save for when Evasion is getting in the way of Wings of Flurry! Also, it used d8's against evil targets instead of d6's.
I'll keep my eyes open for more.
Chris
Body Outside of Body (CArc) is a level 7 Wujen spell that creatures one duplicate for every 5 caster levels. Its not that amazing, but it doesn't have a cap... Actually, if you cast Giant Size first, its pretty crazy.
Earthen Grasp (CArc/SpC) has a BAB = your caster level and Str = 14 + 2/3 CL. That can give Strength scores up in the 30s easy with the most basic of the suggested builds.
Sword of Deception (CArc/SpC) also has a BAB = caster level, and it can make full attacks. Its damage is fairly weak, but it stacks save penalties pretty high, and it also may be able to make disarm checks...
Darts of Life (CChampion) is a level 5 Cleric spell (so obviously its a challenge), but if you use a Full-round action, you can heal someone (or harm an undead) for (uncapped) CLd8s. (There's also no save for undead, though it does require an RTA).
Otiluke's Suppressing Field (CMage) can shut down a lot of spells, especially given its amazingly high DC (11 + CL), though, obviously, its no AMF.
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (Dragon Magic) gives you +1/2 CL on melee damage rolls for CL/rounds. I'm amazed nobody caught this one yet. Seems like it ought to be a staple of gish builds (which makes me afraid it was errataed or reprinted sucky or something).
It makes you able to steal higher level spells, but you can't necessarily hold them, especially if you just dipped spellthief for one level. (If however you took a lot of spellthief levels and dipped other classes or did some other multiclass thing... not really sure what they had in mind here... with 9 or more spellthief levels you could hold any spell.)
This is not useless. You can deny your enemy the chance to use a high level spell that you hate them using. It also seems to allow you to cast spells from other arcane casters in light armor... Seems odd for it to grant that, but it distinctly says "...cast or stolen from other arcane classes".
It is in direct violation of RAW and RAI and is complete nonsense.
Here is an example of the shenanigans attempted:
Yes, like I said mine was a conservative estimate. Here's the math:
1 (Spellthief) + 18 (Wizard) + 8 (Warmage) + 4 (Ultimate Magus) = 31
A more liberal estimate would add the Ultimate Magus bonus to both Wizard and Warmage before applying Master Spellthief, which would yield a CL of 35, but I don't believe the feat supports that interpretation.
Here is what the feat allows: "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."
THIS IS NOT "Your spellthief levels and caster levels in arcane classes also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."
The sample build has 1 spellthief level and 19 arcane spellcaster levels (Technically 20 since spellthief itself is an arcane spellcaster...), and as such has a caster level of 20 for all its arcane spellcasting.
You could even argue that other arcane caster level boosts (UM class feature, ioun stone, ring of arcane might, etc) do not get to change this. I wouldn't make that argument, though.
Useless complaints
Dude, you don't even know what the heck you are talking about. ^^
Read the rules, read the guide and understand everyone posting here actually agrees with you. While you are at it, practice your politeness.
Yes. From the FAQ, you add CL boosters in whichever method would be most beneficial, so all of it stacks; combine with faster-than normal CL advancing PrCs and you get ridiculous CLs.
Just to reiterate.
"Knight of the Weave: (Champions of Valor) Your caster level for Knight of the Weave is your Knight of the Weave level plus levels in any other arcane spellcasting class you might have. This is basically double Master Spellthief. Illumian Spellthief 10/Knight of the Weave 10 has BAB 14 and gets CL 42 (5th level spells)."
Ok, for starters Spellthief 10 has a caster level of 5. Illumian will raise it by 2, practiced spellcaster will raise it by 4, and master spellthief will set it to 20. The illumnian and practiced spellcaster actually do nothing, in the end the caster level will be 20.
Knight of the weave can take this 20 and add 10 to it to get 30.
Or, you can use master spellthief AFTER knight of the weave. Doing this will result in a caster level of 20 for both classes.
30 is not equal to 42.
Yes. From the FAQ, you add CL boosters in whichever method would be most beneficial, so all of it stacks; combine with faster-than normal CL advancing PrCs and you get ridiculous CLs.
Just to reiterate again. Apply Master Spellthief first then do the others.
We clearly disagree. Here is another example you used:
"Knight of the Weave: (Champions of Valor) Your caster level for Knight of the Weave is your Knight of the Weave level plus levels in any other arcane spellcasting class you might have. This is basically double Master Spellthief. Illumian Spellthief 10/Knight of the Weave 10 has BAB 14 and gets CL 42 (5th level spells)."
Ok, for starters Spellthief 10 has a caster level of 5. Illumian will raise it by 2, practiced spellcaster will raise it by 4, and master spellthief will set it to 20. The illumnian and practiced spellcaster actually do nothing, in the end the caster level will be 20.
Knight of the weave can take this 20 and add 10 to it to get 30.
Or, you can use master spellthief AFTER knight of the weave. Doing this will result in a caster level of 20 for both classes.
30 is not equal to 42.
First of all, Knight of the Weave does not add your caster level to your knight of the weave level; it adds your levels in arcane spellcasting classes. So you add your full 10 levels of Spellthief. Read the rules carefully before making assumptions. You apply bonuses in the order you choose. It's in the FAQ. Again, read the rules before making wrong assumptions.
I say the abolute best you can do is add your knight of the weave class level to your spellthief caster level, which is at most 20(spellthief caster level boosted by Master Spellthief)+10(class levels of weave)=30.
Master spell thief in my opinion works off of CLASS LEVELS, erego it will not raise you above 20, ever. Unless you're epic.
(Stupidly, since Spellthief is an arcane casting class, you get to add it 1.5 times, once from Spellthief, then 1/2 from the arcane casting from Spellthief)
Then add in the KotW bonus of "plus your other spellcasting" = 5 (from the 5 CL given by Spellthief).
25 + 5 = 30.
Wouldn't fly in any game I play in, but the rules support it.
EDIT: Tried to make it clearer
First add Master Spellthief: 10 Spellthief level + 15 arcane casting levels = 25.
(Stupidly, since Spellthief is an arcane casting class, you get to add it 1.5 times)
Then add in the KotW bonus of "plus 1/2 your other spellcasting" = 5.
25 + 5 = 30.
Wrong at the first line. Master spell thief adds 10 levels of spell thief plus 10 levels in arcane spellcasting classes (knightoftheweave10) to get 20. And you don't get to stack something with itself and count the master spellthief caster levels.
Doing it your way in the example in the second paragraph of the feat's benefit you get 4+6=10...WHEN IT CLEARLY SAYS IT SHOULD BE 8!!!
And I think you are forgetting how knight of the weave (champions of valor 112) works, but I don't care about that.
Wrong at the first line. Master spell thief adds 10 levels of spell thief plus 10 levels in arcane spellcasting classes (knightoftheweave10) to get 20.
Doing it your way in the example in the second paragraph of the feat's benefit you get 4+6=10...WHEN IT CLEARLY SAYS IT SHOULD BE 8!!!
I can't help it that the editors can't do math.
PS: What's wrong with my profile.
PPS: It's rude to accuse someone of baiting. I'm not and if you thought I was you should have just kept your mouth shut.
Wow. "You can't help it that the editors can't do math". So you honestly think that this feat increases a spellthief20's caster level from 20 to 30, and that the editors can't do math. That's hilarious.
Yes, its funny that we got more poorly worded stuff from WotC. Excuse me if it doesn't appear that I'm rolling; I'm laughing on the inside. Sorry about the other stuff; I'll remove it.
Master Spellthief gets you CL = your levels (not your spellcaster level) in spellthief + your levels (not your spellcaster level) in other arcane spellcasting classes. With spellthief 10/knight of the weave 10, this is CL 20 (10 + 10). This is CL for both Spellthief and KotW.
Knight of the Weave CL equals your levels (not your spellcaster level) in knight of the weave plus any other arcane caster levels you might have. Your Spellthief arcane caster level, thanks to Master Spellthief is 20. Master Spellthief had already set your CL from KotW to 20, then thanks to the wording of KotW's casting you add your Spellthief CL (20) to it.
Illumians with the right selection of glyphs get +2 CL.
20 + 20 + 2 = 42.
Kinda confusing and perhaps not intended, but certainly RAW.
I would still have to disagree though, since knight of the weave explicitly says "other arcane caster levels", you can't count itself. Furthermore I don't think you can try and apply MS before KotW at all, because if you do then KotW is not an arcane spellcasting class, since it doesn't have an arcane spellcaster level yet. You could still easily abuse it though, via being a Spellthief1/Sorc1/Wiz1/Wujen1/.../KnightOfWeave1 and get silly caster levels over 300. Clearly knight of the weave should work off class levels, but the wording clearly says it does not.
Still though, I find much of this thread is implying that Master Spellthief works off of caster levels, and it very clearly does not in my opinion.
Like this other example:
"Chameleon: (Races of Destiny) Their arcane spellcaster is Chameleon level x2. With this, you can get CL 30 without any effort (Spellthief 10/Chameleon 10). Remember, Chameleon spellcasting can't fill any prerequisites. An Illumian Spellthief 12/Chameleon 8 (or any other combination of Spellthief 1 and 11 levels of arcane spellcasting class) with Master Spellthief has a base CL of 16 from Chameleon, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +2 from Illumian and +12 from Master Spellthief for a grand total of CL 34 (6th level spells)."
Would have caster level 20 on both sides(+2 for Illumian, I guess).
The important point I'm making is that in the process of calculating CL, the step of considering Master Spellthief's effect (Whenever you choose to do it), will never raise caster level above 20, because it works off of class levels.
I would still have to disagree though, since knight of the weave explicitly says "other arcane caster levels", you can't count itself. Furthermore I don't think you can try and apply MS before KotW at all, because if you do then KotW is not an arcane spellcasting class, since it doesn't have an arcane spellcaster level yet. You could still easily abuse it though, via being a Spellthief1/Sorc1/Wiz1/Wujen1/.../KnightOfWeave1 and get silly caster levels over 300. Clearly knight of the weave should work off class levels, but the wording clearly says it does not.
Yes, that's the whole point. KotW is wrongly worded. About not being able to apply Master Spellthief, it may look weird but since you apply effects in any order you choose, it's totally doable.
Still though, I find much of this thread is implying that Master Spellthief works off of caster levels, and it very clearly does not in my opinion.
Hm, the intent was not to imply that and if it seemed as such I apologize.
Like this other example:
"Chameleon: (Races of Destiny) Their arcane spellcaster is Chameleon level x2. With this, you can get CL 30 without any effort (Spellthief 10/Chameleon 10). Remember, Chameleon spellcasting can't fill any prerequisites. An Illumian Spellthief 12/Chameleon 8 (or any other combination of Spellthief 1 and 11 levels of arcane spellcasting class) with Master Spellthief has a base CL of 16 from Chameleon, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +2 from Illumian and +12 from Master Spellthief for a grand total of CL 34 (6th level spells)."
Would have caster level 20 on both sides(+2 for Illumian, I guess).
Hm, no. Let me make the math clear.
Chameleon CL = 8 (class level) x2 = 16 + 4 (Practiced Spellcaster) = 20 + 2 (Illumian) = 22. Master Spellthief adds 12 to this amount since Chameleon does not count as an arcane spellcasting class since it has very weird wording on its abilities. 22 + 12 = 34. Spellthief caster level is only 12.
The important point I'm making is that in the process of calculating CL, the step of considering Master Spellthief's effect (Whenever you choose to do it), will never raise caster level above 20, because it works off of class levels.
You are wrong because there are classes (like Chameleon, Knight of the Weave and Abjurant Champion) that key your caster level to things other than class levels. What Master Spellthief does is adding his bonus (that is, indeed, keyed to class levels) to those non-class-level-based caster levels.
Hm, no. Let me make the math clear.
Chameleon CL = 8 (class level) x2 = 16 + 4 (Practiced Spellcaster) = 20 + 2 (Illumian) = 22. Master Spellthief adds 12 to this amount since Chameleon does not count as an arcane spellcasting class since it has very weird wording on its abilities. 22 + 12 = 34. Spellthief caster level is only 12.
Well first off on a sidenote, I don't know how Illumian adds 2 in your examples. I am only familiar with their Krau sigil effect, which is a +2 not exceeding character level. What exactly are you using (page?).
That aside, onto Master Spellthief & Chameleon. Chameleon is an odd creature and I'm not sure if it should count as an arcane spellcasting class as far as MS is concerned or not. Consider both cases:
1 - It does: As described above, you have a chameleon CL of 22. Fine. As per MS, your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack for determining caster level for all arcane spells. 12+8=20. Your CL for chameleon (arcane spells) and spellthief is now 20. The end.
2 - It doesn't: As described above, you have a chameleon CL of 22. Fine. As per MS, your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels stack for determining caster level for all arcane spells. 12+0=12. Your CL for chameleon (arcane spells) and spellthief is now 12. The end.
I repeat, master spellthief's effect is:
Arcane Caster level = (A sum of class levels)
Unless you have more than 20 class levels, this will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever give CL > 20 (Exception: Bloodlines). Other things in determining CL later in the process (IE KotW, ioun stone...) may, however bring it above 20.
Bloodline3/SpellThief1/Bard1/Sorcerer1/Warmage1/WuJen1/Duskblade1/4MOREARCANECLASSES???/Wizard5/SublimeChord1/Knightoftheweave1
Has Caster Level:
1) Master Spellthief sums up all arcane casting class levels. Bloodline makes every one of those count as +3. 12 classes at level 4 and 1 at level 8 (wizard) give caster level 12*4+8=56 for all classes.
2) Knight of the weave's level is the sum of caster levels, plus one. 56*13+1 = 729. This is now your caster level for kotw.
I didn't bother listing the other arcane classes (Suel Arcanmach...whatever), because realistically you wouldn't take them and would instead get more knight of the weave to actually be able to cast some real spells.
Pointless arguments
Learn a bit about English. Learn a bit about Math. Learn a bit about D&D. Then we can argue.
Learn a bit about English. Learn a bit about Math. Learn a bit about D&D. Then we can argue.
I know a substantial amount about all three subjects, thanks.
Do you have anything more relevant to say in response to my post #66, or do you just stick to harassment?
I know a substantial amount about all three subjects, thanks.
Do you have anything more relevant to say in response to my post #66, or do you just stick to harassment?
I'll just stick to harrassment, thanks.
That build has CL 29, fyi.
(20 Master Spellthief+9 Green Star Adept, AC, Illumian and PC do zippo)
You think you get to apply CL effects in whatever order you want...and then resolve them in whatever order you want. False. You resolve each effect after applying it.
Things like are invalid.
It must be or instead.
IE, say the build was an Illumian Wizard16/Fighter4 with effect1="Practiced Caster[Wizard]'" and effect2="Krau Sigil".
-> CL 22
Is invalid.
It must be
-> CL 20
No way in hell do you get to apply 2 effects which do not exceed HD and get a result which does.
i thought that none of the chameleon levels or abilities could count as prereqs for feats, abilities, etc. If that is the case then Master Spellthief wouldn't apply to Chameleon because it wouldn't be considered an arcane class RAW. I'm gonna do some research
I don't remember the specific wording, but this isn't using Chameleon's Casting as a prereq, just the caster level for stacking purposes.
Are the caster levels not a facet of the class as well? It would be the same as using it's smite to meet a prereq. Where does the arcane casting class come from in a spellthief/chameleon build?
Spellthief.
Human Wizard 5 / Spellthief 4 / Shadow Adept 1 / Red Wizard 5 / XXX 5. We do not forbid Illusion.
Feats:
1st: Tattoo Focus, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Scribe Scroll (bonus), Summon Familiar (bonus)
3rd: OPEN
5th: Extend Spell (bonus)
6th: Shadow Weave Magic
9th: OPEN
10th: Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Tenacious Magic (all bonus)
12th: OPEN
15th: OPEN (RW bonus), OPEN
18th: Master Spellthief
Now we use Circle Magic, where several helpful Simulacra we've made of ourselves generously donate spells to increase our caster level. The Circle Magic ability in the Red Wizard description does not specify which set of casting we use. Perhaps we can increase both our Spellthief casting and our Wizard casting up to caster level 40 via Circle Magic?
Master Spellthief would sum these to caster level 80, right?
Is there a way to use the five free levels and available feats to increase this to caster level 100?
If I do this, would I get 2 x Spellthief levels to determine what level of spell I can steal? Could I steal a 9th level spell at 9th level? Could a 20th level Spellthief steal spells as a 40th level Spellthief? What in the world would that be like?
So, a straight Spellthief can take Master Spellthief.
If I do this, would I get 2 x Spellthief levels to determine what level of spell I can steal? Could I steal a 9th level spell at 9th level? Could a 20th level Spellthief steal spells as a 40th level Spellthief? What in the world would that be like?
It would be like violating RAW, that's what it would be like.
So, no Lormador, Master Spellthief would not sum up those 2 caster levels of 40 to give 80. It only adds class levels together, so it would actually knock your CL back to 20 if you tried applying it at that point.
EDIT: OK, I see... stacks with "other spellcasting classes for determining what spell level you can steal". It doesn't say the same thing in the CL description, though.
1) Will this be competitive in a Tier 1-3 game?
2) Is there anything that can be done to improve this?
3) Should I drop the TWF stuff and just go Spring Attack instead? I was going to pick up TWF Pounce and Neraph Charge later.
House-rules: 32 PB, 19,000 gp in wealth, 7th level, no gnomes, flaws OK, traits OK, magic locations OK (limit 1, and I pay out of starting cash)
I really want to play a Spellthief - it seems very "tech", but I'm concerned about the power gradient.
Al-Kassir
Kalstunian Human Spellthief 7
Str 9, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16
BAB +5, AC 20 (touch 14, FF 15), F 5 R 8 W 5 (+1 vs spells)
Feats
TWF, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Light Mace, Lightening Mace, Telling Blow
Flaw
Murky-Eyed, Shaky
Skills (ranks only listed)
Search (10 ranks), Disable Device (10 ranks), Spot (5 ranks), Use Magic Device (10 ranks), Hide (8 ranks), Move Silently (8 ranks), Spellcraft (10 ranks), Tumble (5 ranks), Bluff (8 ranks), Balance (5 ranks), Jump (5 ranks)
Skill Tricks
Group Fake Out, Twisted Charge, Wall Jumper
Class Abilities
Steal Spells (up to 7 levels, 3rd level spells)
Absorb Spell
Steal Spell Effect
Steal Spell-like Ability (up to 2nd level)
Spellgrace +1
Sneak Attack +2d6
Detect Magic (at will)
Trapfinding
Steal Energy Resistance 10
Spells (level / per day; known)
1 / 2 Nerveskitter, Sniper's Shot, Critical Strike
Equipment Needs Work...
Equipment
Head:
Goggles: Eyes of the Eagle
Body: Mithril Chain Shirt +1 w/ Greater Crystal of Adaptation
Neck: Hand of the Mage
Torso: Vest of Resistance +1
Back: Cloak of Charisma +2
Arms: Counterstrike Bracers
Gloves: Gloves of Dexterity +2
Rings:
Belt: Healing Belt
Boots: Boots of Agile Leaping
Weapon Primary: Masterwork Light Mace w/ Least Crystal of Return
Weapon Secondary: Masterwork Light Mace w/ Least Crystal of Return
Not currently armed lists:
Masterwork Light Crossbow w/ Least Crystal of Return
Goggles of Minute Seeing
Arcane Thieve's Tools
Lens of Detection
Disposable:
20 bolts
Wand of Longstrider 50/50
Wand of Shield 50/50
Wand of Acid Splash 50/50
Wand of Magic Weapon 50/50
Scroll of Gravestrike
Scroll of Golemstrike
Scroll of Vinestrike
Scroll of Disguise Self
Scroll of Cheat
Scroll of Weapon Shift
Scroll of Dead End
Potion of Invisibility x 2
Potion of CLW x 2
Head:
Goggles: Eyes of the Eagle
Body: Mithril Chain Shirt +1 w/ Greater Crystal of Adaptation
Neck: Hand of the Mage
Torso: Vest of Resistance +1
Back: Cloak of Charisma +2
Arms: Counterstrike Bracers
Gloves: Gloves of Dexterity +2
Rings:
Belt: Healing Belt
Boots: Boots of Agile Leaping
Weapon Primary: Masterwork Light Mace w/ Least Crystal of Return
Weapon Secondary: Masterwork Light Mace w/ Least Crystal of Return
Not currently armed lists:
Masterwork Light Crossbow w/ Least Crystal of Return
Goggles of Minute Seeing
Arcane Thieve's Tools
Lens of Detection
Disposable:
20 bolts
Wand of Longstrider 50/50
Wand of Shield 50/50
Wand of Acid Splash 50/50
Wand of Magic Weapon 50/50
Scroll of Gravestrike
Scroll of Golemstrike
Scroll of Vinestrike
Scroll of Disguise Self
Scroll of Cheat
Scroll of Weapon Shift
Scroll of Dead End
Potion of Invisibility x 2
Potion of CLW x 2
While a very interesting build, I'm afraid it would seriously lack the power to contribute in such a high tier party. Get wandchambers on those light maces of yours... and no love for (Greater) Mighty Wallop?
Well, if you are even considering the neraph feats, you should probably be a neraph. ^^
While a very interesting build, I'm afraid it would seriously lack the power to contribute in such a high tier party. Get wandchambers on those light maces of yours... and no love for (Greater) Mighty Wallop?
I consider it a priority for when I get 3rd level spells, but until then... We don't have an arcane caster in the party.
Yeah, I'm increasingly thinking its not going to cut it... Shaper, PsyWar/Ardent, Pally/Sorc-gish, Binder, and maybe a Druid are the party competition.
Good idea on the wandchambers. I could also equip two iron gloves/gauntlets with wandchambers, too (armor spikes w/ wandchambers, maybe?).
I consider it a priority for when I get 3rd level spells, but until then... We don't have an arcane caster in the party.
Yeah, I'm increasingly thinking its not going to cut it... Shaper, PsyWar/Ardent, Pally/Sorc-gish, Binder, and maybe a Druid are the party competition.
Good idea on the wandchambers. I could also equip two iron gloves/gauntlets with wandchambers, too (armor spikes w/ wandchambers, maybe?).
I think armor spikes with wand chambers might be a bit too much, but you need the versatility. If you have a reliable flanking buddy and all, it might just make the cut.
I'm new to optimizing, but how do you get Hunter's eye in all of these builds? Its a ranger 2 spell.
Typically the Advanced Learning class feature of Unseen Seer obtained at level 2 of that class is how I do it.
Godsblood Spelltheft
You derive power from your exposure to godsblood.
Prerequisites: Steal Spell as a class ability.
Benefits: Select a domain from one of the deities involved in the Time of Troubles on the following list:
Anhur, Bane, Bhaal, Clangeddin Silverbeard, Gilgeam, Gond, Gwaeron Windstrom, Hoar, Ibrandul, Iyachtu Xvim, Kelemvor, Labelas Enoreth, Leira, Malar, Mask, Myrkul, Mystra, Nobanion, Ramman, Red Knight, Selune, Shar, Shaundakul, Tiamat, Torm, Tymora.
When you steal a spell, you can use the stolen spell energy to cast a single spell from the domain you have chosen. The domain spell must be of equal or lower level than the spell you have stolen. If you do not cast this spell within one hour, the spell energy fades away harmlessly. You can select the good, evil, chaos, or law domain only if that domain does not conflict with your alignment. You can use this feat a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. This ability functions in all other ways like the Steal Spell ability.
Its here (everyone focuses on Font of Inspiration, but...).
So, there's a LOT of deities listed there... Including Mystra... That's the Spell domain, in case anyone's curious.
Here's a list of other domains:
Domain Choices (Pick one!)
Lots of repeats on this list; sorry in advance:
Storm, Hatred, Tyranny, Death, Destruction, Retribution, Dwarf, Good, Law, Strength, War, Air, Strength, Tyranny, War, Craft, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Metal, Planning, Animals, Good, Knowledge, Plants, Travel, Cavern, Darkness, Scalykind, Repose, Elf, Time, Deception, Illusion, Mist, Shadow (does this count for ScM entry???), Strength, Luck, Trickery, Death, Fate, Pestilence, Illusion, Magic, Rune, Spell, Animal, Nobility, Planning, War, Moon, Cavern, Darkness, Knowledge, Air, Portal, Protection, Trade, Evil, Scalykind, Tyranny, Healing, Law, Protection, Strength, Chaos, Good, Luck, Travel
Iyachtu Xvim or Ramman domains<-don't know, maybe something with noodles...
Lots of repeats on this list; sorry in advance:
Storm, Hatred, Tyranny, Death, Destruction, Retribution, Dwarf, Good, Law, Strength, War, Air, Strength, Tyranny, War, Craft, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Metal, Planning, Animals, Good, Knowledge, Plants, Travel, Cavern, Darkness, Scalykind, Repose, Elf, Time, Deception, Illusion, Mist, Shadow (does this count for ScM entry???), Strength, Luck, Trickery, Death, Fate, Pestilence, Illusion, Magic, Rune, Spell, Animal, Nobility, Planning, War, Moon, Cavern, Darkness, Knowledge, Air, Portal, Protection, Trade, Evil, Scalykind, Tyranny, Healing, Law, Protection, Strength, Chaos, Good, Luck, Travel
Iyachtu Xvim or Ramman domains<-don't know, maybe something with noodles...
Good feat... to bad it in no way encourages a real spellthief instead of a dip :p
I've been thinking about a real Spellthief lately, but the more I think about it, the more I think that a Rogue 1 / Spellthief 8 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Virtuoso +9 can do everything I'm thinking about and more (has to use Versatile Spellcasting and Heighten Spell to trick into SC), so you might be right about that.
But, Spellthief on its own just seems really good... I know I won't convince people of that, b/c its totally at the DM's mercy about what kind of monsters you'll face, but stealing SLAs, energy resistance, spells, and SR seems awesome. Its not going to outdo any full caster, for sure, but it seems so much stronger than a straight Rogue. With that feat and Master Spellthief they still need 9 levels of Spellthief to be able to store the spell necessary to fuel up to 9th level domain spells, though, so there is that small caveat.
I don't know anyone who has played one in RL, though.
I've been thinking about a real Spellthief lately, but the more I think about it, the more I think that a Rogue 1 / Spellthief 8 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Virtuoso +9 can do everything I'm thinking about and more (has to use Versatile Spellcasting and Heighten Spell to trick into SC), so you might be right about that.
Spellthief1/Bard8/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord1/Virtuoso9
Is just plain better and doesn't use cheese.
With that feat and Master Spellthief they still need 9 levels of Spellthief to be able to store the spell necessary to fuel up to 9th level domain spells, though, so there is that small caveat.
Say what? Where does this come from? 1 Level is sufficient.
Warlock 1 provides an at-will SLA.
And you can sneak attack yourself, for 1 hp subdual.
Prolly need a minor healing spell sitting around somewhere.
Recharge thyself.
Sweet.
How the heck do you manage to sneak-attack yourself? Don't you have to be flat-footed against your own attack?
How the heck do you manage to sneak-attack yourself? Don't you have to be flat-footed against your own attack?
Multiple personalities?
First add Master Spellthief: 10 Spellthief level + 15 arcane casting levels = 25.
(Stupidly, since Spellthief is an arcane casting class, you get to add it 1.5 times, once from Spellthief, then 1/2 from the arcane casting from Spellthief)
Then add in the KotW bonus of "plus your other spellcasting" = 5 (from the 5 CL given by Spellthief).
25 + 5 = 30.
Wouldn't fly in any game I play in, but the rules support it.
EDIT: Tried to make it clearer
The first part of the feat only boosts Spellthief in counting the level of spells you can steal, not the Spellthief caster level. Additionally, it specifically states "arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief"
The second part of the feat only adds the spellthief levels (not caster level) to your arcane caster class to determine caster level. The inclusion of the word "also" implies that it works with the same rules as included in the beginning of the feat description (thus: "levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other that the spellthief").
A spellthief 4/wizard 1/ultimate magus 10 would thus be:
Spellthief 4+5(since spellthief is a half-progression class), Wizard 1+10. Tack on the Master Spellthief, you would steal as if 4+11 (since ultimate magus does not progress spellthief abilities, only the spellcasting), and cast (wizard) as if 11+4 (since the feat specifically states spellthief levels, not spellthief caster level).
will see if i can get something fun later
:D
stuff
I saw the error later.
Say what? Where does this come from? 1 Level is sufficient.
Master Spellthief stacks for what spells you can steal, but doesn't give the capacity to store them (so, Spellthieves still need 9 levels to actually steal and hold onto 9th level spells; I don't think the domain feat lets one get past that). It might be a reasonable DM call to allow MSpellthief to stack for what you can steal and what you can store, though.
As far as feats go, there's a feat in Exemplar of Evil called Divine Denial. Now this isn't the greatest feat ever, but it has the particularity to grant you a saving throw agaisnt any divine spell even if you're not normally allowed one. This mean amongst other things that you can use your absorb spell class feature against any divine spell that targets you. You need Iron Will and knowledge religion (9 rank) as a prereq.. If only there was a way to apply this to arcane spells as well ...
Oh, and you also get a +2 to saving throw vs. divine spell
I little change of pace, I'm back to the OP now.
As far as feats go, there's a feat in Exemplar of Evil called Divine Denial. Now this isn't the greatest feat ever, but it has the particularity to grant you a saving throw agaisnt any divine spell even if you're not normally allowed one. This mean amongst other things that you can use your absorb spell class feature against any divine spell that targets you. You need Iron Will and knowledge religion (9 rank) as a prereq.. If only there was a way to apply this to arcane spells as well ...
Oh, and you also get a +2 to saving throw vs. divine spell
Hmm, looks pretty interesting for Spellthieves in general, but I think this feats does little for out standard Master Spellthief (arcane casters that diped spellthief for the feat). Could be worth adding it to the OP, though.
Hmm, looks pretty interesting for Spellthieves in general, but I think this feats does little for out standard Master Spellthief (arcane casters that diped spellthief for the feat). Could be worth adding it to the OP, though.
All the Spellthief handbooks have been archived, so this becomes the only place for this stuff
.Thoughts?
'Kay,
Spellthief levels (NOT caster levels) stack with other arcane spellcaster class levels when determining caster levels. As Spellthief is an arcane class, it doesn't make sense to read the sentence as (spellthief and arcane) spellcaster levels, so it must be (spellthief and arcane spellcaster) levels.
I mean, this is pretty clear, a Spellthief A, Wizard B, Sorcerer C would have CL of A+B+C, with additional modifiers on top.
Now, a, say, Spellthief A, Bard B, Sublime Chord C is trickier. A sublime chord's CL could be either A+C or B+C, but spellthief says CL is A+B+C for all classes.
Wait, how can this NOT overlap? Okay, nevermind that for now.
A Spellthief A/Wizard B/Ultimate Magus C.... Would actually work exactly as it should.
"Arcane spellcaster" as used in the feat description is also defined there -
levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief
Ultimate Magus doesn't grant arcane spellcasting. Thus, while your entry CL would be A+B, you would only add it's normal boosts to your CL.
Wait, so... this doesn't work? (Outside from how it's intended, that is.) There could still be some strange interaction with other "Add this to that" classes, but only when it refers caster level instead of class level. Oh fooey, I wanted to use this to pimp out improvisation to silly heights. :/
Oh BTW - it's quotes that break the new forum code - you can now longer tell who you're quoting in the tag. quote=someone doesn't seem to work anymore.
Let's say we have a Spellthief 3/Wizard 3/Fighter 2/Corrupt Avenger 4/Fighter +2/Corrupt Avenger +6. What are the caster levels set at for Spellthief, Wizard, and Corrupt Avenger, assuming Master Spellthief and Practiced Caster (Wizard)?
Its only class levels that stack not Casterlevel.
Wizard = spellthief 3+wizard 3 + 4 Praticed spellcaster = 10
Corrupt avenger = spellthief 3 +Corrupt avenger 10 = 13