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Master Spellthief help?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
seph-baelzara
May 13, 2009 20:53:55 Signing up for this touney of sorts. Starting level is 16, and we're granted a number of templates, or races as long as the total CR (yes, CR not LA) + HD does not exceed 5.

The following is what must be adhered to:
Non-campaign specific WotC 3.5 books plus any WotC web articles plus Savage Species for feats/spells only. Dragon magazine not available. Only feats, spells and items from campaign-specific stuff.
3.0 stuff that have been updated to 3.5 via web enhancements are OK. If a web article is 3.0 it will be usually allowed if it is feat, spell or template.
Flaws and Traits from the SRD only are acceptable.
One race/creature plus templates of your choice whose total CR or HD do not exceed 5 (whichever comes first).
Your race and/or first template must be from the SRD.

It's a 32 point buy (currently set at 10/16/10/14/8/16 in that order), and I'm going Sorcerer 4/Spellthief 12 (not in that order) at the moment. These can be changed.

I'm currently asking for help deciding which combination would be most sneaky.
I'm thinking of using the Dark template from the ToM, but past there, I'm stumped for anything else. I'm looking to build a character whom can strike fast, efficiently, and disappear before the opponent knows otherwise. The duo of Spellthief/Sorcerer is to both try something new, and keep to the theme of casting--something I'm quite familiar with.
Help/Questions?
#2
casualgatherer
May 13, 2009 21:11:30 Try Spellthief 1/X. With a single feat (Master Spellthief) any arcane casting levels you have stack with spellthief for determining the level of spell you can steal.

Potentially Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen SeerX/Spellwarp Sniper 5, where US levels are less than 6.
#3
seph-baelzara
May 13, 2009 22:23:17 But wouldn't the Wizard combined with the Spellthief create a touch of MAD?
Especially with most of the Spellthief's abilities depending on Cha.

I originally had it as:
Spellthief 2/Sorcerer4/Unseen Seer 10
But the losses in the Spellthief's abilities in place of some lesser (IMO) abilities. And with this being a tournament at such high tier of play I thought that those abilities would come into handy more than the US's. Sure, there's full progression in spell casting, and bonuses for damage dice, but that's about as far as it went from what I could see.

Remind me, where's the Spellwarp Sniper from?
#4
casualgatherer
May 13, 2009 22:59:32 Spellwarp Sniper is from Complete Scoundrel. Master Spellthief is as well, but the idea isn't to have a good spellthief progression, its to have good arcane casting while stealing others spells as well. At 16th, assuming full caster progression, you should be able to steal 8th level spells. While being able to cast 8th level spells on your Wizard side. Stick that in the full Wizard's spleen.

At 3rd level Spellwarp Sniper, for instance, you can change a fireball (for probably 10d6) into a ray spell. Assuming Sneak Attack applies, you get Sneak Attack, Sudden Raystrike and you steal a spell. Just find ways to deny the target his dex bonus to AC. Evards Tentacles is a good one.

The problem with Spellthief is that abilities like Detect Magic aren't great in an arena setting, spellgrace is ok, energy resistance won't ever show up in a PC, and they are all worse than full spellcasting.

Try Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Full casting 4 (Preferably sneak attack too. Unseen Seer works well, but i'm sure other people could find better ways to do it.)

This gives you the ability to steal 8th level spells, cast 8th level spells, read minds within 100', and gives you +5d6 sneak attack assuming you take 4 levels of unseen seer. I recommend using Greater Invisibility, Mirror Image and Fly to make yourself nigh untouchable, while sneak attacking with any instantaneous spells of 5th level or lower which have a range longer than touch. 5d6 sonic damage + 5d6 extra sneak attack damage? Then, steal a spell to replace it, and get a peak at their prepared spells. Once you run out of Greater Invis, you still have goodies like Polymorph and other great things, while the other guy has been using his spells to find you.

For stats, i would expect a high int, followed by Con, Dex, Cha, Wis, Str.

EDIT: And, this build doesn't fall flat on its face against non-casters. just murder them with spells, while flying, from afar. will you know who you are fighting before hand?

Other EDIT: You could fit a few levels of Archmage in there, maybe. Get an 8th level spell as an SLA 2/day, or just get an extra CL.
#5
seph-baelzara
May 14, 2009 0:49:21 In place of the Unseen Seer, would a Fatespinner 4 do well within the build above? If not, the US it is for this build.

And not to my knowledge, I don't think I'll know who I'll face before hand, why? Does it matter?

Also, the reasoning for the progression within the Spellthief was thanks to the templates added in. Many of them, or at least quite a few of them offer resistance and/or immunity to certain spell types, as well as a number of quite a few other instances for what the Spellthief could take.

Now on to the topic of templates?
I have an idea for one, but the Dark template has a CR of +1, leaving me room for any number to fill up the remaining +4
I'm thinking of going the Illumian race (easily changed), which leaves a request for a template from SRD that'd give the biggest boon to the goal, whilst keeping to the requirements.
#6
gorfnad_the_shiznit
May 14, 2009 1:08:15 Well for the template from the SRD that you have to take, I would recommend the Phrenic template. Or if you really have to the Half Celestial or Half Fiend template will give you wings and stats boosts as well. Half Dragon is iffy at best unless you need the melee boost. With Phrenic then you could do Dark Shadow Phrenic Human or Illumian. Otherwise Dark + Lich = LA 5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 seph-baelzara May 13, 2009 20:53:55	Signing up for this touney of sorts. Starting level is 16, and we're granted a number of templates, or races as long as the total CR (yes, CR not LA) + HD does not exceed 5. The following is what must be adhered to: Non-campaign specific WotC 3.5 books plus any WotC web articles plus Savage Species for feats/spells only. Dragon magazine not available. Only feats, spells and items from campaign-specific stuff. 3.0 stuff that have been updated to 3.5 via web enhancements are OK. If a web article is 3.0 it will be usually allowed if it is feat, spell or template. Flaws and Traits from the SRD only are acceptable. One race/creature plus templates of your choice whose total CR or HD do not exceed 5 (whichever comes first). Your race and/or first template must be from the SRD. It's a 32 point buy (currently set at 10/16/10/14/8/16 in that order), and I'm going Sorcerer 4/Spellthief 12 (not in that order) at the moment. These can be changed. I'm currently asking for help deciding which combination would be most sneaky. I'm thinking of using the Dark template from the ToM, but past there, I'm stumped for anything else. I'm looking to build a character whom can strike fast, efficiently, and disappear before the opponent knows otherwise. The duo of Spellthief/Sorcerer is to both try something new, and keep to the theme of casting--something I'm quite familiar with. Help/Questions?
#2 casualgatherer May 13, 2009 21:11:30	Try Spellthief 1/X. With a single feat (Master Spellthief) any arcane casting levels you have stack with spellthief for determining the level of spell you can steal. Potentially Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen SeerX/Spellwarp Sniper 5, where US levels are less than 6.
#3 seph-baelzara May 13, 2009 22:23:17	But wouldn't the Wizard combined with the Spellthief create a touch of MAD? Especially with most of the Spellthief's abilities depending on Cha. I originally had it as: Spellthief 2/Sorcerer4/Unseen Seer 10 But the losses in the Spellthief's abilities in place of some lesser (IMO) abilities. And with this being a tournament at such high tier of play I thought that those abilities would come into handy more than the US's. Sure, there's full progression in spell casting, and bonuses for damage dice, but that's about as far as it went from what I could see. Remind me, where's the Spellwarp Sniper from?
#4 casualgatherer May 13, 2009 22:59:32	Spellwarp Sniper is from Complete Scoundrel. Master Spellthief is as well, but the idea isn't to have a good spellthief progression, its to have good arcane casting while stealing others spells as well. At 16th, assuming full caster progression, you should be able to steal 8th level spells. While being able to cast 8th level spells on your Wizard side. Stick that in the full Wizard's spleen. At 3rd level Spellwarp Sniper, for instance, you can change a fireball (for probably 10d6) into a ray spell. Assuming Sneak Attack applies, you get Sneak Attack, Sudden Raystrike and you steal a spell. Just find ways to deny the target his dex bonus to AC. Evards Tentacles is a good one. The problem with Spellthief is that abilities like Detect Magic aren't great in an arena setting, spellgrace is ok, energy resistance won't ever show up in a PC, and they are all worse than full spellcasting. Try Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Full casting 4 (Preferably sneak attack too. Unseen Seer works well, but i'm sure other people could find better ways to do it.) This gives you the ability to steal 8th level spells, cast 8th level spells, read minds within 100', and gives you +5d6 sneak attack assuming you take 4 levels of unseen seer. I recommend using Greater Invisibility, Mirror Image and Fly to make yourself nigh untouchable, while sneak attacking with any instantaneous spells of 5th level or lower which have a range longer than touch. 5d6 sonic damage + 5d6 extra sneak attack damage? Then, steal a spell to replace it, and get a peak at their prepared spells. Once you run out of Greater Invis, you still have goodies like Polymorph and other great things, while the other guy has been using his spells to find you. For stats, i would expect a high int, followed by Con, Dex, Cha, Wis, Str. EDIT: And, this build doesn't fall flat on its face against non-casters. just murder them with spells, while flying, from afar. will you know who you are fighting before hand? Other EDIT: You could fit a few levels of Archmage in there, maybe. Get an 8th level spell as an SLA 2/day, or just get an extra CL.
#5 seph-baelzara May 14, 2009 0:49:21	In place of the Unseen Seer, would a Fatespinner 4 do well within the build above? If not, the US it is for this build. And not to my knowledge, I don't think I'll know who I'll face before hand, why? Does it matter? Also, the reasoning for the progression within the Spellthief was thanks to the templates added in. Many of them, or at least quite a few of them offer resistance and/or immunity to certain spell types, as well as a number of quite a few other instances for what the Spellthief could take. Now on to the topic of templates? I have an idea for one, but the Dark template has a CR of +1, leaving me room for any number to fill up the remaining +4 I'm thinking of going the Illumian race (easily changed), which leaves a request for a template from SRD that'd give the biggest boon to the goal, whilst keeping to the requirements.
#6 gorfnad_the_shiznit May 14, 2009 1:08:15	Well for the template from the SRD that you have to take, I would recommend the Phrenic template. Or if you really have to the Half Celestial or Half Fiend template will give you wings and stats boosts as well. Half Dragon is iffy at best unless you need the melee boost. With Phrenic then you could do Dark Shadow Phrenic Human or Illumian. Otherwise Dark + Lich = LA 5.