In short I'm considering a full 5 levels of master thrower to abuse Two with one Blow, Palm Throw, and Weak Spot, although I'm considering Trip Shot or Defensive Throw in place of TW1B.
I will likely be starting with Rogue and heading for the pre-reqs, but am torn on the exact build and would appreciate some advice.
I'd love to go 10 rogue for Crippling Strike, but I'm also tempted to take 2 lvls of Invisible Blade for Bleeding Wound. Also because I doubt I can help going less than 4 lvls into rogue, I'll be taking Disruptive attack for those pesky non-crittables.
End result at 20 would be multiple ranged dagger SAs causing stacking bleeds and strength loss, but this also means I can't take many other levels of say fighter to go 2 weapon fighting for additional attacks. I've seen some strong looking builds for this type of character on other sites, but none mentioned the bleed from Invisible Blade, and I'd like to find the most effective way of guaranteeing a full-round sneak attack, the free action feint abilities from IB may help out (assuming you can free action on each attack), or if not, I also read about "Surprising Reposte" from some Drow Book but I don't own it, and would like oppinions on how I should proceed.
I realize that this class will come into it's own later on, especially if I'm sinking 10 lvls into rogue, and would be willing to have some slower levels where I may not be such a machine, but I also want the fastest most effective way of getting to where I think this build can take me.
Please give me your advice, and if possible provide Book References for any off the wall feats/classes/items.
What's Out: Artifacts/Major Magic Items/Rare Magic Items,Uncommon Races Anything Psionic, and anything Eberron.
What's In: Forgotten Realms (just about anything goes here) and most non-campaign specific books (would prefer to stick with PHB, PHB2, DMG, Complete Warrior, and Complete Adventurer if possible).
Finally, I'm an intermediate player, and have been playing with a decent group for several years. To avoid conflict and debates, we generally avoid "if DM allows" type options, or using class features without taking levels in that class. If something like an offshoot race or feat makes sense for the build please add in your 2 cents, but I may have to decline it based on what I think or know the DM will allow.
I'll also try to take any suggested builds or ideas and show you my character progression chart asap.
01 - Rogue, BAB+0, Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
02 - Rogue, BAB+1, Evasion
03 - Rogue, BAB+2, Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1
04 - Rogue, BAB+3, (Disruptive Attack) <-PHB2 option
05 - Rogue, BAB+3, Sneak Attack +3d6
06 - Rogue, BAB+4, Trap Sense +2
07 - Rogue, BAB+5, Sneak Attack +4d6
08 - Rogue, BAB+6/+1, (Uncanny Dodge)
09 - Rogue, BAB+6/+1, Sneak Attack +5d6, Trap Sense +3
10 - Rogue, BAB+7/+2, (Crippling Strike)
11 - I.Blade, BAB+8/+3, Dagger Sneak Attack +6d6, Unfettered Defense
12 - I.Blade, BAB+9/+4, Bleeding Wound
13 - I.Blade, BAB+10/+5, Dagger Sneak Attack +7d6, Uncanny Feint (Move Action)
14 - I.Blade, BAB+11/+6/+1, Feint Mastery
15 - I.Blade, BAB+12/+7/+2, Dagger Sneak Attack +8d6, Uncanny Feint (Free Action)
16 - Thrower, BAB+13/+8/+3, Quick Draw, Thrown Weapon Trick (Weak Spot)
17 - Thrower, BAB+14/+9/+4, (Improved Evasion)
18 - Thrower, BAB+15/+10/+5, Thrown Weapon Trick (Palm Throw)
19 - Thrower, BAB+16/+11/+6/+1, Snatch Arrows
20 - Thrower, BAB+17/+12/+7/+2, Critical Throw,Thrown Weapon Trick (Two With 1 Blow, Trip Shot, Defensive Throw)
I could potentially go Human if I need the Feat for 2Weapon Fighting and/or Surprising Reposte, though a throwing class just screams Halfling.
Magic Item Lineup would focus on Bracers of armor, standard defensive rings/necklace, and eventually I'd like to have x +1 Returning Daggers, where x=the number my DM will allow me to catch in 2 hands, presumably a minimum of 4.
feel free to destroy the chart above, I really would like to drop 3 levels of Invisible Blade if able to gain multi-Sneak Attacks some other way.
Wizards of the Coast put out some errata for Complete Warrior. It limits uncanny feint to once per round. It also specifies that sneak attacks only apply once per pair of daggers thrown with palm throw. Bleeding wound and crippling strike would also only apply once, since they are used as part of a sneak attack.
Wizards of the Coast put out some errata for Complete Warrior. It limits uncanny feint to once per round. It also specifies that sneak attacks only apply once per pair of daggers thrown with palm throw. Bleeding wound and crippling strike would also only apply once, since they are used as part of a sneak attack.
Ok, then Two With One Blow would make the better choice over Palm Throw, at least for multiple enemies, seeing as there's only 1 attack roll and the precision based damage/effects would be shared by both affected. Also, unless I can find a better way to deny the enemy it's Dex, I may as well take Double Toss. That way if I dont have flank I can still hit twice/round with precision, and still have a move action.
The biggest problem is either keeping flank or finding a feat that helps deny their Dex. If anyone has a good suggestion I may even be able to drop the 3 levels of Invisible Blade and take the 2 remaining lvls AFTER thrower Like I wanted (Rogue 10/Thrower 5/I.Blade 2/[3 free levels] that may not be reached anyways). Going the full 5 into I.Blade is a pretty heavy dip just to get Feint as a free action, although it does continue my SA damage I'm mainly here for the bleed.
SURPRISING RIPOSTE (Feat)
Type: General, Fighter
Source: Drow of the Underdark
Through deft maneuvering, you unravel your opponent's defenses.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
Benefit: If you deal damage to an opponent in the same round that you successfully feinted against it, it becomes flat-footed. This effect lasts 1 round or until the opponent's next turn, whichever comes first.
Opponents that can't be caught flat-footed, such as characters who have uncanny dodge, cannot be affected by Surprising Riposte
Special: A fighter can select Surprising Riposte as a fighter bonus feat.
This, combined with TWF tree, might give me exactly what I want... but dear god the prereqs are going to be fun to iron out.
...a throwing class just screams Halfling.
Whisperknife from RotW. 10 levels, full BAB, and 3d6 sneak attack. To go along with throwing abilities like ranged flank.
The bloodstorm blade prestige class (Tome of Battle, p100) gives an ability called lightning ricochet at 4th level. Lightning ricochet causes any weapon you throw to return to you fast enough to use it for your next attack in a full attack.
I should warn you that DMs who don't like psionics also tend to not like maneuvers, a system of mechanics that forms the heart of Tome of Battle. However, bloodstorm blade has next to no connection to maneuvers, it only uses them to limit the frequency with which a few class features can be used, so it wouldn't be hard to modify the class to be fully independent of maneuvers.
I know of one good trick for master thrower. The power throw feat (Complete Adventurer, p111) lets you take a penalty to thrown weapon attack rolls to gain an equal bonus to thrown weapon damage rolls. This is one of the few sources of damage that is doubled by palm throw. If you have weak spot, you can probably afford to take a large penalty to attack rolls.
@New-Shadow
Grab 3 levels of Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior and get the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. This combo not only gives you a big BAB and HD increase, it also allows you to get an INT bonus to weapons rolls (for light weapons or those affected by Weapon Finesse), Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, and a dodge bonus to Ref, plus boosting your Sneak Attack dice as if the Swash. levels were Rogue levels. If you have the room, levels in the Assassin, Arcane Trickster, and Unseen Seer (for the Hunter's Eye spell from PH 2) PrC's might also help (depending on your alignment).
I do like the Int to to Atk roll idea, and remembered the swashbuckler as a 1BAB/lvl class (so I can advance class earlier), so I grabbed the complete warrior again to compare the classes, sadly Insightful strike reads too much like a melee ability to me (although great arguements could be made against that), and the prerequisite to Daring Outlaw is to already have SA. I could pick the feat up later, after say I.Blade, but I'm already a pretty feat heavy build for TWF/PrC Prereqs, and I also lose Crippling strike by not going rogue. As for the alternate advanced classes, our allignment will have to tend towards good, so no assasin, and arcane trickster is too large a level dive to still be doing what I set out to do.
@draco1119
Whisperknife from RotW. 10 levels, full BAB, and 3d6 sneak attack. To go along with throwing abilities like ranged flank.
Amazing find, I have rarely cracked my Races of the Wild so I never would have found this. Ranged flank would be amazing to have, 9 lvls is a big dip, but it's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.
@ObsidianConspiracy
It may be worth using the Halfling Rogue substitution in RoTW, Ranged Sneak attack +2D6 at 3rd level of it on top of your normal SA, but lower melee SA by 1D6 permanently. Just a thought for a thrower,
Even more gold! Asuming I stick with rogue (which I likely will) I am definately taking the Sub at 1st, will likely take it at 3rd aswell (though I'll miss Trap Sense), but sadly will have to take the regular 10th for Crippling Strike, Sniping Mastery is pretty awesome though. If my final build allows for 13 Rogue levels I'll take Sniping at 10th and Crippling afterward.
@Maat_Mons
The bloodstorm blade prestige class (Tome of Battle, p100) gives an ability called lightning ricochet at 4th level. Lightning ricochet causes any weapon you throw to return to you fast enough to use it for your next attack in a full attack.
I don't own the Tome of Battle but will look up the class tomorrow (I work at 10am and it's almost 1am now), 4 levels isn't too bad if it allows me to not only save on enchanting 8 or more different +1 Returing daggers (or build towards that and lose a tonn of masterwork daggers along the way), allowing me to instead only enchant 4 (I assume a paln throw from each hand means minimum 4 daggers), but it sounds like I can drop the returning enchant all together. You may just have saved my money problem.
I also decided on my exact race as an alternate Halfling from FaeRun (where our game will be taking place) that drops the racial +1 on all saves (pretty big) for an extra feat at first level. When I know the name I'll reply again.
1) The only discussions I could find on the topic were exclusively about 1st lvl Ranged S.A. and did not discuss lvl 3 (which I probably am taking).
2) I want this to be air tight so I'm not accused of cheating and have nothing to back me up.
3) Typing this out makes me do more research and sometimes re-reading something for the 'n'th time can make a difference.
4) You guys have steered me right thus far, and I trust in your interpretations/comprehension of the rules.
It's more the ability to pick and choose Sub lvls
The text reads:
"A halfling rogue is particularly talented at delivering sneak attacks with slings and thrown weapons. Whenever a halfling rogue delivers a ranged sneak attack with a thrown weapon or sling, she deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. However, her melee sneak attack damage is reduced by 1d6 (0 points of damage at 1st level, an extra 1d6 points at 3rd level, an extra 2d6 points at 5th level, and so forth, to a maximum of 9d6 at 19th level). This ability doesn't give the halfling rogue the ability to deal sneak attack damage to creatures she otherwise couldn't affect (wheather due to anatomy, concealment, range, or any other reason). This substitution feature augments, but does not replace the standard rogue's sneak attack ability."
The ClassTable in RotW is what seems to confuse most players that have posted on this, the chart shows (+1d6 Ranged S.A., +0 Melee S.A.) which only once you read the text makes you realize that this could have been written as (+2 Ranged S.A., +0 Melee S.A.) and I assume the only reason for the Table not being written this way is due to Sneak Attack Requirements to enter a Prestige Class/Feat ect (eg the 1st lvl rogue may deal more damage earlier with ranged weapons, but would still have to wait until the same level as all other rogues to get into a PrC/Feat with a +2d6 S.A. Req like Daring Outlaw). The above is simply speculation and really holds no bearing over my build as I'm not taking the Daring Outlaw Feat or Swashbuckler levels.
The text also clarifies that the overall loss of melee 1d6 at first level is a 1 time deal and end game he's still doing 1 less d6 than a normal rogue (at least when taken only at level 1).
My question comes in at the 3rd level. Where the chart says (+2d6 Ranged S.A., +1d6 Melee S.A.). Both at +1d6 over the previous level of sneak attack.
The way I'm hoping this reads is that, assuming I take both sub lvls and am level 3, I'm doing 4d6 Ranged S.A. (normal 2d6 + 1d6@1st + 1d6@3rd), and would still have 1d6 Melee S.A.
That comes out as +2d6 Ranged and only -1d6 Melee S.A. damage, compared to the normal class levels (unbalanced and "cheater" worthy), so would this mean that the "balance" is having to take "Theif's Luck" over "Trap Sense"? So theoretically if you somehow like Theif's Luck over Trap Sense, you could chose to only take the lvl 3 substitution and have a normal Melee S.A., more powerful Ranged S.A. and Theif's Luck?
I realize that Trap Sense is good, but it's also pretty situational, if you focus on keeping Disable Device pumped to your max ranks/lvl and have MW Theifs Tools + Decent Int (as I believe a rogue/artificer should), you should beat most traps, otherwise the DM is picking on you or gave you fair warning that you shouldn't be where you are. Even assuming Trap Sense is godly, unless you're exploring "The Castle of Forgotten Traps Where Every Room is a Make or Die Trap", the reroll from Theif's Luck could actually work out better (75% chance it will, even at max lvl), especially late game when you have 2-3 rerolls per day. The only thing it doesn't do is allow you to roll high and reach a DC you normally shouldn't make, and limits the number of saves per day that you have a distinct advantage on (so just don't fail at that many disable attempts), but once again I assume most failed saves will be caused by me rolling low.
All tangents aside, lvl3 Halfling Rogue (who chose both lvls 1 and 3 from RotW) gets 4d6 Ranged S.A.? Yes or no? and if not, why?
Martial Stance - Assassin's Stance. Get 2d6 Sneak Attack. Can use it to qualify for the SA requirement of Daring Outlaw.
SURPRISING RIPOSTE (Feat)
Type: General, Fighter
Source: Drow of the UnderdarkThrough deft maneuvering, you unravel your opponent's defenses.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
Benefit: If you deal damage to an opponent in the same round that you successfully feinted against it, it becomes flat-footed. This effect lasts 1 round or until the opponent's next turn, whichever comes first.
Opponents that can't be caught flat-footed, such as characters who have uncanny dodge, cannot be affected by Surprising Riposte
Special: A fighter can select Surprising Riposte as a fighter bonus feat.
Possible mini-hitch here. I sadly Forgot these PreReqs, and a multi attacking rogue that can reduce it's target's strength and add a stacking bleed only once a turn is a waste after this much forethought. I could have just gone 10 Rogue/5 I.Blade/5 open (likely fighter for bonus feats, or another rogue/S.A. class) and used Kukri in melee like my previous rogue. Combat Expertise is doable but a pain to take for a ranged fighter, I will find myself in melee at some point, but I'd rather focus on avoiding the situation all together and escape artist/tumbling out of these sticky situations. Luckily with the help of "Defensive Throw" and "Weak Spot" I could still get my ranged attack bonuses and the -5 shouldn't hurt when I'm aiming for their Touch AC.
The bigger annoyance is Improved Feint. Invisible blade gives me the exact same bonus (while armed with daggers) from Uncanny Feint, so I now have to do what I tried to avoid... get my DM's permission to skip that feat as a PreReq. Still, I'd rather take the hit to my 'RAWness' than have to wait 3 extra levels and entirely sac a feat.
This does however fill Feat slot # 5/8 with Combat Expertise rather than Surprising Riposte like I was hoping, slot # 6/8 will take Surprising, and that only leaves slots 7 and 8 for the first 2 out of 3 TWF Feats.
The biggest problem is either keeping flank or finding a feat that helps deny their Dex.
As a Rogue, you tend to have more skill points than you know what to do with, so investing in a skill trick or two (Complete Scoundrel) could help with your sneak attack woes. Each skill trick costs 2 skill points and have a skill requirement, but they're almost like feats. Acrobatic Backstab requires 12 ranks in Tumble (which is useful enough to flank), but if you succeed at a Tumble check to move through an opponent's space, they're flat-footed against your next attack that turn; I know that there's either a feat or a class feature that allows you to use ranged attacks in melee without fear of AoO, but I can't think right now :\. Corner Perch could also be fun (it allows you to brace yourself against perpendicular or opposite surfaces and still leave your hands free with a successful Climb check) and it'd grant a +1 to attack for higher ground
