Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kamimakuna Jun 27, 2012 13:36:29	I am working on a gestalt Goliath that I want to be ably to out-damage the rest of the party with. My basic idea is to maximise his first round damage and initiative bonus to cover for his below average AC. Material from all 3.5 books is allowed. Important Houserules for the campaign: 1. the first point of level adgustment is free. 2. You get feats at each odd level; however no more than 2/3 of them can go towards the same specialty (I have been told that psionic feats count as a specialty)  3. I think but am not sure that class skills for a class that you have count as class skills for all classes 4. Erudites can get any psionic power I currently only have lavel one planned out and it is as follows:  Classes: Erudite//Warblade  Feats: Psionic Weapon, Rapid Assault, Improved Initiative, Endurance  Traits: Musclebound, Aggressive  Flaws: Vulnerable, Shaky Suggestions for future levels would be greatly appretiated. PS: the Fullblade is allowed in this campaign
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 27, 2012 14:09:21	I am working on a gestalt Goliath that I want to be ably to out-damage the rest of the party with. My basic idea is to maximise his first round damage and initiative bonus to cover for his below average AC. Material from all 3.5 books is allowed. Important Houserules for the campaign: 1. the first point of level adgustment is free. 2. You get feats at each odd level; however no more than 2/3 of them can go towards the same specialty (I have been told that psionic feats count as a specialty)  3. I think but am not sure that class skills for a class that you have count as class skills for all classes 4. Erudites can get any psionic power I currently only have lavel one planned out and it is as follows:  Classes: Erudite//Warblade  Feats: Psionic Weapon, Rapid Assault, Improved Initiative, Endurance  Traits: Musclebound, Aggressive  Flaws: Vulnerable, Shaky Suggestions for future levels would be greatly appretiated. PS: the Fullblade is allowed in this campaign  You need to tell us what you mean by "specialty". Likewise, what level are you starting at? Incidentally, I can tell you that if you're trying to get first-round damage, the fullblade and psionic weapon aren't as hot as you'd think: they just add dice, which don't scale and don't multiply. You can outdo them with Power Attack, which is where the real source of melee damage stems from. You might find the Inevitable Nightmare and Pinball Brothers links in my signature useful here as examples of what's possible with that. You'll probably notice that your trait/flaw setup is identical to the Pinball Brothers, which is also a goliath melee build with potent one-round damage (but that's not its primary purpose - the Brothers are a hybrid, blending AoO tanking with ubercharging - see below - while emphasizing position control. Basically, as tactical as I could get without using the Tome of Battle for most of the levels.). The Inevitable Nightmare will need some tweaking, but not that much: the basic idea there was to maximize damage reliability as well as output, and to do so without charging, which has some tactical appeal. (The Nightmare build needs some revisions; I missed a critical prerequisite and had to delay a very, very nice feat to 18th when it should show up sooner. However, you can squeeze it in using your accelerated feats with no real problem.) The "classic" (using normal rules, so no gestalt and no accelerated feats) insano-damage build usually involves "Ubercharging" - in essence, Power Attack + multiplication effects, most of which only kick in on a charge. The four main abilities that are usually found on uberchargers are Power Attack, Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer),  Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior, requires Improved Bull Rush) and Pounce (the ability to make a full attack on a charge; there's a number of ways of getting it, but by far the easiest is the Lion Totem variant barbarian in Complete Champion). All of this can be obtained by level 6 without resorting to gestalt or accelerated feats, so it shouldn't be hard to transfer it over. (Barb 2 / Fighter 4 is an easy way of doing this and still has feats left over.) These characters can charge and make multiple attacks at the end of the charge, with no penalty on the attack roll, and with the full damage bonus from Power Attack (multiplied because of Leap Attack and whatever else you've got, such as a Valorous weapon). The drawback to this is that the Power Attack bonus applies to your AC - and you were already prepared to handle low AC.  Combine this with a reach weapon (for obvious defensive reasons, plus they're all two-handed) and rudimentary control abilities (tripping, Stand Still, and whatever else you can do to prevent people from closing with you in meee; you can rely on Wall of Blades or similar abilities for ranged defenses) and you're basically golden. I'll need to think a bit more about what your specific houserules will do to the builds I can think of; this may take some time since that's a somewhat involved set of houserules. I'll see what I can do. But in the meantime, look for damage multiplication rather than damage dice. Big weapons (fullblade) and most sources of bonus damage dice (especially the slow recharge on psionic weapon) tend to not be worth it in the long run, even if you're only interested in a single round.
#3 New-Shadow Jun 27, 2012 14:14:31	Sounds like you want Tempest Stormwinds' Inevitable Nightmare build for your Warblade side (found here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...  ) . As for Erudite, are you planning on PrCing out or staying in the class for the full 20 levels?  Are you taking the Spell to Power variant in Complete Psionic (I think that is where that variant is)?  If you are planning on PrCing out, I suggest Sanctified Mind from Lords of Madness.  Gives Power Resistance equal to 5 + character level as the capstone, plus other assorted goodies for someone dealing with evil psionics users.  Grab the Assume and Don Mantle (Magic) feats, and suddenly you have SR to help you out.  Illithid Slayer from XPH is also a useful prestige class, provided you can meet its special prereq.  What do you see this half doing, is it a blaster or a booster?  Knowing this can help us help you better. Edit: Ninja'd by Tempest.
#4 Krusk Jun 27, 2012 15:15:06	I'm thinking you want something like Warblade 20//barb 1/rogue 19. Prestige the rogue into stuff that boosts sneak attack. Ubercharge with full sneak attack is a nice solid damage boost.  The math has probably been run on whether two weapons or power attack would be better for a build like this but I don't remember. It probably comes down to how many multiplication multipliers you can manage to get on the power attack side.  Whats with the erudite class, it doesn't really fit with your goal as far as i can tell. Might be nice to stack some psi warrior spells onto using that house rule though.
#5 draco1119 Jun 27, 2012 15:16:44	Another thing to point out for for the 1 level of Barbarian: the Goliath gets Mountain Rage as an ACF for Barbarian, which makes them Large when they rage.  This won't stack with powerful build (so your weapon won't become Huge), but it DOES increase your reach.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 27, 2012 15:45:37	I'm thinking you want something like Warblade 20//barb 1/rogue 19. Prestige the rogue into stuff that boosts sneak attack. Ubercharge with full sneak attack is a nice solid damage boost. The math has probably been run on whether two weapons or power attack would be better for a build like this but I don't remember. It probably comes down to how many multiplication multipliers you can manage to get on the power attack side. Interesting note on the math: I think you might have been talking about me. I went into great detail (with plenty of number-crunching) into a similar gestalt combination (barbarian//rogue) in this thread. Rogue is not as good at boosting damage as you'd think in that combination since the ways that barbarian boosts damage (damage multipliers on a two-handed power attack) do not overlap well with the ways a rogue does (two-weapon fighting with situational positioning). The thread discussed Frenzied Berserker, but you don't need to be that extreme to get similar effects. I did NOT go into the situational aspect of things - the need for a flanker or flat-footing - since that's hard to quantify. Here, with a warblade, particularly if he focuses on Tactics of the Wolf and has a high Intelligence, you can actually get the same sort of effect anyway: high-level warblades deal bonus damage based on Int when in sneak-attack positions, and Tactics of the Wolf gives an even bigger bonus when flanking, and both are flat-damage bonuses, so they multiply. You can even combine it with Pounce and ubercharging without a two-handed weapon and possibly outdo other builds, since technically technically White Raven charges seem to apply their (flat) bonus damage to each attack on a Pounce. This deserves some investigation. (NOTE: The Tome is a bit contradictory about whether flat damage from manuevers multiplies. It suggests it doesn't, which makes no sense in the context of the rest of the rules, but does make sense if the White Raven maneuvers (the only flat-damage ones in the book) were changed late in the process from +Dice to +Flat Damage. The Tome's casual language in some places - i.e. the lack of DC expressions - doesn't help clear things up.) In any case, you can save a lot of point-buy with Gloves of the Balanced Hands; these give you TWF (even without 15 Dexterity), or Improved TWF if you already have TWF (even without 17 Dexterity). They're in the Magic Item Compendium. A ranger dip can supply the basic TWF with low Dexterity if you wish; Ranger 2 isn't a bad class either, particularly to start. Whats with the erudite class, it doesn't really fit with your goal as far as i can tell. Might be nice to stack some psi warrior spells onto using that house rule though. As near as I can tell he's using it to qualify for Psionic Weapon, which is why I concentrated on discussing that in my first reply. If initiative is the way to go, and you have space to consider caster levels, it's very hard to beat a three-level Elven Generalist Wizard dip with a Thrush familiar. Works out to +8 initiative, and that stacks with Improved Initiative and the Nerveskitter spells you're probably able to cast from a wand. Re: Draco, New-Shadow: If their suggestions look interesting, all of the key effects are present on the Pinball Brothers, which I think fits your overall goals better than the Nightmare (which may do more damage, but Pinball's much more fun to play). Both need tweaking to fit your houserules, but they're pretty good starting points. (Also, if Unearthed Arcana's allowed [Edit: For the Whirling Rage variant], Lion Totem Goliath Barbarian 1 is a killer dip level. Pounce, an extra attack when you pounce from Whirling Rage, and extended reach from Mountain Rage form a killer combination. You can see it in action on the Pinball Brothers too.)
#7 Krusk Jun 27, 2012 16:35:59	Yeah, I was hoping tempest would pop in and fill in the math bits.  Lion totem that gives pounce is complete champion. The one in UA gives run and some other stuff.
#8 kamimakuna Jun 27, 2012 18:55:12	Ansering questions from the top: I'll quote the DM on Feat Specialties "Generally speaking, melee attack power would be one, initiative would be another. Anything in a chain or that gets stronger based on other feats would count." I believe that the intent of the restriction is to prevent over specialization. I am starting at Level 1, and I think the DM is planning on being evil right off the bat. Erudite is primarily for Enlarge, Deep Impact, the prescience/precognition powers, and giving the character emergency ranged ability. It is there to boost the melee. We are not using the spell to power version. Also, Erudite gives a psycrystal (which can give another +2 initiative) and a bonus feat at first level.
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 27, 2012 19:47:43	I'll quote the DM on Feat Specialties "Generally speaking, melee attack power would be one, initiative would be another. Anything in a chain or that gets stronger based on other feats would count." I believe that the intent of the restriction is to prevent over specialization. That sort of makes sense (and your belief of intent is the same as mine - a normal character only has two-thirds as many feats as you do, and you can't devote more feats than that to one thing, just like a normal character), but then you run into problems if you build with versatile feats, particularly if tactical feats enter the picture. Does Shock Trooper count as an attack power feat, a positioning feat, or both?  Still, this is more of an overall guideline than a hard-and-fast rule. We'll keep it in mind. Erudite is primarily for Enlarge, Deep Impact, the prescience/precognition powers, and giving the character emergency ranged ability. It is there to boost the melee. We are not using the spell to power version. Also, Erudite gives a psycrystal (which can give another +2 initiative) and a bonus feat at first level. Psionic buffs, in particular Expansion, don't work all that well with a manifester level of 1, so you're forcing yourself to take more Erudite and/or the Overchannel feat. This isn't a bad call actually (although I prefer normal Psion // Warblade since you tend to need multiple buffs), but it changes how I saw the build.  Let me know if any of the suggestions I gave above are appealing; we'll work with that. Warblade // Int-based no-ASF caster isn't a bad call in general, particularly if you focus on swift-action powers or use Link Power or Schism to speed up your buffing. (There's an evil stunt you can use with Link Power and augmentation effects, but I'm not too clear on exactly how it works. I'll ask my DM what he's been doing with it next chance I see him.) HOWEVER, such a character is more geared for "ready for anything" rather than geared for "maximum damage, minimum time". In general I'd suggest the former as a superior tactic, but we'll work with the latter if that's still your goal.
#10 kamimakuna Jun 28, 2012 14:12:57	I think that I would be better off going with something more similar to Inevitable Nightmare than the Pinball Brothers because I understand how it functions better and can see fewer ways to stop its attack method. I also like not being required to move in order to make use of the damage boosts I would prefer to be able to contribute at least minimally in as many combat encounters as possible,  that being said, the other party member is a skill-monkey/healer who has an absurd number of defensive abilities. In short, the only thing that I have to be able to do is dish out damage Would putting skill points into iaijutsu focus be worth it? The DM mentioned the skill.
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 28, 2012 15:55:32	I think that I would be better off going with something more similar to Inevitable Nightmare than the Pinball Brothers because I understand how it functions better and can see fewer ways to stop its attack method. I also like not being required to move in order to make use of the damage boosts The Nightmare build is hard to stop, but it also only contributes one thing (killing power). The Pinball Brothers are also hard to stop, but rather than because it's reliable, it's hard to stop because it's versatile. Virtually nothing in the game is immune to the insane damage on the nightmare... but also, virtually nothing in the game is immune to everything the Pinball Brothers bring to the table, and they shift freely between all of their actions (including performing most of them at the same time. Still, if I didn't do a good job explaining Pinball in the thread, would you mind slipping me a message about what was confusing? It's one of my favorite builds (which is why I led the showcase with it) and it's a wonderful teaching tool (since it showcases both major aspects of D&D melee at once), and accordingly I'd love to have it as new-player-friendly as possible.  (If it helps, I wrote a basic manual on AoO tanking (the more complex part of the build) in an sblock here. The ubercharging combines Power Attack with abilities that multiply it (Pounce, Whirling Frenzy, and Leap Attack) and abilities that make sure it hits (Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge). The position juggling is based on JanusJones' Up Against The Wall build, which explains it a bit better.) (Interesting side note: Speaking of JanusJones, the Nightmare build is actually very, very similar - the main trick is actually identical, except as far as timing's concerned - to JanusJones' Meditant build. This was complete coincidence: I honestly hadn't even heard of the Meditant when I set out to build the Nightmare (I had left the WotC boards when it was published and only came back after it was eaten by the internets), and had I known about it I would have cited it. When I re-do the analysis and edit the Nightmare showcase, I'll be sure to credit him.) I would prefer to be able to contribute at least minimally in as many combat encounters as possible,  that being said, the other party member is a skill-monkey/healer who has an absurd number of defensive abilities. In short, the only thing that I have to be able to do is dish out damage Could you elaborate on your other character? And why would you say "healer" when by and large that's a bad tactical decision? And to be honest, there's two kinds of defense in D&D. One is a passive defense, which is more obvious - defensive buffs, AC, saving throws, and so on. The other is an "active defense", based on denying enemies their chances to attack you. Characters that reposition enemies or operate as "lockdowns" (AoO tank characters who interrupt any action with an attack, and come with abilities that prevent easy escape from their grasp) specialize in this, in fact. (The Swordsage in the Tome of Battle is one of the better examples of this in a single class, since unlike the lockdown-styled Fighter, a Setting Sun swordsage is entirely self-contained and easier to use without system mastery.) Would putting skill points into iaijutsu focus be worth it? The DM mentioned the skill.  In general, no. The benefit is minor - a skill check in the 40s only gets you +10d6 damage, which works out to +35 damage on average, except since it's from bonus damage dice, it doesn't multiply. The main method of improving iaijutsu damage is the Iaijutsu Master, but that class has obscene feat requirements and is extremely dependent upon multiple ability scores (the only score that doesn't matter to an iaijutsu master is Wisdom - although they don't need Strength as an iaijutsu master, since they get katana finesse as an iaijutsu master, they will still need Strength while qualifying. I wrote more on the ins and outs of using Iaijutsu Master here, particularly in the context of comparing it to a warblade.) It's also only a class skill for, I think, four classes (OA Samurai, Factotum, and (if you choose it) Expert and Human Paragon), so it's a pain to max out. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it's virtually impossible to trigger iaijutsu damage: unless you're building specifically for it, you will be lucky to pull it off "as intended" even once per character level without entering formal iaijutsu duels.  There were builds which triggered iaijutsu more frequently; they're keyed off of the rare few abilities in the game that actually catch targets "flat-footed" as opposed to merely denying them Dexterity (which frequently involved being smaller than your opponent) and until recently usually involved having a half-dozen katanas strapped to your body, quick-drawing each in turn (since there's no quick-sheathe feat). Setting aside the fact that tiny warriors with several toothpick-sized swords isn't exactly thematically linked to an iaijutsu samurai, here's a few examples. The first one I did involved the Giantbane feat, but this was primitive and rudimentary. The concept got a serious bump with Races of the Wild, leading to the OTHER Killer Gnome. More recently (I can't find anyone who was doing this before me), there's the Sapphire Nightmare Iaijutsu stunt, which (for the first time) actually lets you do it on command as a normal, Medium-sized, single-weapon samurai, and employs surprisingly few feats to get off the ground. This is a lot of song and dance, though, when you could just use other damage boosts such as Tome of Battle maneuvers. The absolute best output that Iaijutsu Focus can provide is exactly matched by Rabid Bear Strike and War Leader's Charge, which are available at the mid levels. Make of that what you will.
#12 kamimakuna Jun 29, 2012 14:22:07	The difficulty I had understanding the Pinball Brothers was from a crash-happy computer, and unfamiliarity with the key feats; whereas I have read through the Bo9S recently. I also wasn't able to read through either description in one sitting. I think I see how it all fits together now. I think the other player is doing some sort of pixie/rogue-type//sorcerer/favored soul theurge using reserve feats. as far as the defenses go the ones that I know about for sure are the DR, Invisibility, buffed AC, and generally staying away from melee using ranged touch stuff. I'm not entirely sure what all it does, but it is capable of healing when necessary as well as detection and general skill-monkeying.
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 29, 2012 15:39:29	The difficulty I had understanding the Pinball Brothers was from a crash-happy computer, and unfamiliarity with the key feats; whereas I have read through the Bo9S recently. I also wasn't able to read through either description in one sitting. I think I see how it all fits together now. Thanks... there's a lot of interlinking components, but if it made sense, then that's good. If you like the BO9S, there's plenty of ways to make a regular martial adept utterly rock. Its interaction with gestalt is a little hazier, but they're very versatile characters. (The Pinball Brothers sprung, nearly fully-formed, out of this discussion (a year ago yesterday!), where the DM didn't allow the Tome.) I think the other player is doing some sort of pixie/rogue-type//sorcerer/favored soul theurge using reserve feats. as far as the defenses go the ones that I know about for sure are the DR, Invisibility, buffed AC, and generally staying away from melee using ranged touch stuff. I'm not entirely sure what all it does, but it is capable of healing when necessary as well as detection and general skill-monkeying. That's a rather versatile build, and it will naturally complement a tough-guy (if enemies can't attack the pixie, they will be attacking you, so you should be tough enough to survive) and a strongman (since it looks like the pixie's built for stamina rather than spike output). Basically don't neglect your defenses and you should be fine.
#14 bahamut920 Jun 29, 2012 17:12:20	I think a goliath Warblade//Barbarian/Factotum would make a pretty effective damage dealer, and would be a bit more versatile to boot.  Take your barbarian level at 2nd level (or later; pounce doesn't really benefit you until higher levels anyways), to maximize skill points.  Factotum gets Int to attacks and damage, wizard spells as spell-like abilities (so they can be cast while you're raging and in any armor, unlike psionic powers or normal spells), an extra standard action at 8th level (which stacks with a belt of battle or other forms of action cheese), Int to AC (so you'll be a bit less squishy), and, if you make it up to 19th level, the ability to poach any three extraordinary abilities from any 20-level class for a minute each.  There's a reason factotum is among my favorite classes. As for spells, I'd suggest haste, greater mighty wallop (use a bludgeoning weapon; goliath greathammer if you can afford the feats), greater mirror image (an excellent defensive option that allows you to ignore your AC and still not get hit like 90% of the time), heart of earth (temporary hit points and stoneskin), and the like. The only skill you need to make this build work is Concentration, which is a good option for warblades anyways.  I suggest UMD to make use of a wand of nerveskitter (hidden in the wand chamber of your weapon).
#15 kamimakuna Jul 02, 2012 21:49:47	I was thinking about taking a Barbarian level at either lv. 6 or 10, 6 due to it being the first level to get multiple attacks and 10 being the first level after Erudites could get Schism if I still go with that. I definitely like the idea of getting a wand of nerveskitter