Maximizing Sneak Attack for The Thief of Life - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Maximizing Sneak Attack for The Thief of Life

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lycarn
Aug 09, 2010 14:29:56 The Class is in Faiths of Ebberonn or you can find it here www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/200...

I'm trying to find ways of maximizing sneak attack with this class because it gets bonuses for killing people with sneak attack. So things like Flick of the Wrist and being able to feint from Invisible Blade and such. Are there any handbooks out there for optimizing sneak attack?
#2
Maat_Mons
Aug 09, 2010 16:00:21
You might want to check out this thread. Here are some useful items:

Deadly Precision: MIC, +1, deal an extra +1d6 sneak attack
Deadly Precision: CAdv, +2, deal an extra +2d6 sneak attack
Mantle of the Predator: MIC, 8,000, deal +1d6 damage against foes denied dex bonus
Rogue's Vest: MIC, 18,000, deal an extra +1d6 sneak attack
#3
awaken_D_M_golem
Aug 09, 2010 16:29:07 Thief Of Life - has one early qualifying option. Generic class 1 ; that's it.
www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gener...

The Rogue guide also provides good strategy and complimentary class ideas.
Wraithstrike is probably overpowered early, but keeps up with casters to some higher levels.

(otherwise, not my strong suite)
#4
Balthanon
Aug 09, 2010 20:54:02 What level are you going to be playing at? The abilities are a touch lackluster in general, particularly with the very slow sneak attack progression, but the 10th level ability's essentia rider has some definite potential.

I could see a Rogue/Totemist/Warblade/Thief of Life working out fairly well by picking up tons of attacks, all of which are dealing sneak attack damage. Honestly, that's the best method of killing with sneak attack-- you can boost it via a variety of methods, but 4d6 sneak attack is going to trump 8d6 every time if you're doing it on 8 or 9 attacks rather than 3.
#5
dumorimasoddaa
Aug 09, 2010 21:38:57
What level are you going to be playing at? The abilities are a touch lackluster in general, particularly with the very slow sneak attack progression, but the 10th level ability's essentia rider has some definite potential.

I could see a Rogue/Totemist/Warblade/Thief of Life working out fairly well by picking up tons of attacks, all of which are dealing sneak attack damage. Honestly, that's the best method of killing with sneak attack-- you can boost it via a variety of methods, but 4d6 sneak attack is going to trump 8d6 every time if you're doing it on 8 or 9 attacks rather than 3.

Yep focusing on attack numbers and to hit bonuses will help more than adding sneak attack power. One could consider going as a close range archer and using a splitting weapon to get x2 the attacks and keeping your ass safe enough. With aptitude on the weapon as well you can use the crossbow sniper feat to increase you sneak attack range to 60'. Also if you did take generic class blah at lvl 1 DM allowing and just soak the multi-class penalty (if any) for a few early levels you should be on par or may even just above the basic power level of the rest of the group.
#6
cycada
Aug 09, 2010 22:02:25 You could also (questionably) qualify for it with Halfling Racial Rogue 1, though that's Thrown +2d6.....It's still SA though, so YMMV. Though, if this qualification req is ran by your DM, be quick to remind him that Thief of Life is lackluster anyway....

~Cy
#7
Balthanon
Aug 09, 2010 22:50:40
Also if you did take generic class blah at lvl 1 DM allowing and just soak the multi-class penalty (if any) for a few early levels you should be on par or may even just above the basic power level of the rest of the group.

A single class should never incur multiclass penalties if your only other classes are prestige classes.

I actually think the halfling racial rogue is a more valid entry point than generic expert (though difficult, since none of the skills are class skills), since the generic classes were not intended to be used with the existing class system-- they were supposed to replace it. I actually always thought it would be kind of interesting to expand the list of "class abilities" you can pick up by picking out some decent ones from various standard and prestige classes.
#8
dead_weasel
Aug 12, 2010 16:11:17
I actually think the halfling racial rogue is a more valid entry point than generic expert (though difficult, since none of the skills are class skills), since the generic classes were not intended to be used with the existing class system-- they were supposed to replace it. I actually always thought it would be kind of interesting to expand the list of "class abilities" you can pick up by picking out some decent ones from various standard and prestige classes.

"If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes."

I feel that the Prestige Bard, Paladin and Ranger were chiefly intended to be used alongside the Generic classes.

At any rate - because it allows entry at level 2, instead of level 4 (standard Rogue) or 5 (Expert), the halfling Rogue variant seems a clear winner to me. If you actually have to play that first level of skill-less, ranged-SA-only Rogue... well, that is less attractive.
#9
Senevri
Aug 17, 2010 12:01:31 Off the top of my head...
1. You don't really gain any benefit from maximizing sneak attack. What you _really_ want to do is KILL your opponents.
2. Looks like the best mechanical benefit from the class is the half-HD as essentia, so you want some Incarnum to go.

So... (doing research, update later)

Okay, here's what I'm thinking: You want an on-hit kill effect, preferrably, but if that's not feasible, you'll want to deal damage. Naturally. So... Without shenanigans, a Rogue 3/ToL 10, leaving you at BAB +9, and not terribly impressive all around.
Y'know, I think your strongest pick at that point is Ur-Priest. You can still buff yourself back to respectability with the spells you'd get, although your CL will be only 11,
and there are:
- some AoE aura spells which drain HP, making opponents more easily dead with SA
- Ranged touch spells you can use to SA, and thus kill with.

Also, for your consideration, I present that a Spell-storing enchantment is the best a weapon can possibly have, for your purposes. It can grant your additional 10 dice of damage per hit, easily, and only has value of +1 weapon enhancement.

*edit*
No, just no. I'm sorry, from where I'm looking, this class just mostly sucks really really bad.
Your best bet is, most likely, get 8 levels in an Incarnum build, getting more abilities than you can fuel, then at level 9, dip swordsage and get Assassin's stance, qualifying you for ToL. Then, finish ToL, and use it's capstone to fuel your wide array of soulmelds/incarnum feats.

Incarnate 3-4, for +1 cap, Improved Essentia Cap, maybe Expanded Soulmeld Cap (now goes up to +7), Indigo Strike (up to +12 damage on sneak attacks), Bloodwar Gauntlets for +7 to attack rolls, Fellmist Robe so you can stealth whenever you like, evil Incarnate Avatar for +2 damage per hit per essentia. Fill all that up for 5d6+24 damage on your sneak attacks.

Hm. Yes. Incarnate 4, (shadow hand) Swordsage 4 for starters - you'll have IL 6, so you already qualify for Assassin's Stance and could even spend a feat to pick it. In fact, you can go SS 5 and finish Thief of Life by level 19.
Hm.
Incarnate 4, Swordsage 1, Umbral Disciple 3, Swordsage +1, pick assassin's stance, you effectively have Hide in Plain Sight, finish Thief of Life and cap off with Warblade, for an example. You'll have 6 dice of sneak attack, dealing that +24, AND STR, and, if you like, DEX in addition.
#10
phaedrusxy
Aug 17, 2010 13:49:04 You need two levels of swordsage. The first stance you pick has to be 1st level.
#11
Senevri
Aug 17, 2010 14:02:53 Indeed.
#12
steelblue
Aug 17, 2010 23:20:54 Senevri, that's pretty sweet. I have to confess that I looked at the class, ran some of the usual ToB/rogue tricks, and decided I didn't know enough incarnum to make it better than completely awful. And then you made me feel like a quitter with that sick awesome build. Very nice.
#13
Senevri
Aug 18, 2010 10:29:45 It's all about reading, and endurance.

Well... ToL doesn't get much - a bunch of defensive abilities, but that didn't make the Survivor any good, either. So, you gotta work with what everyone gets - increased Essentia cap based on HD and increased IL.

You can pretty much pick feats as you need/want them. You'll get at least some benefit from Borrow Vigor, as I doubt you'll have the essentia to keep all your soulmelds filled to the brim. So at least there's _some_ feeling of actually gaining abilities as you level.

Feat-wise... Well, there's Improved Essentia Cap - pick that when you have the essentia to fill something up, Expanded Soulmeld Cap can wait 'til you have a kick-ass soulmeld and the essentia to fill it with. Probably Adaptive Style + Shadow Blade combo.
I wouldn't go crazy on Bonus Essentia - part of the 'fun' is filling up your soulmelds with Thief Of Life's stolen essentia. Indigo Strike is probably a must-have, but otherwise there isn't much in the way of feats.
You should have 7 essentia, +1 if you're a Rilkan or something. This means, you can keep _one_ ability completely filled even at the end, and that your abilities should be nicely powered until Thief of Life's benefits start kicking in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lycarn Aug 09, 2010 14:29:56	The Class is in Faiths of Ebberonn or you can find it here www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/200... I'm trying to find ways of maximizing sneak attack with this class because it gets bonuses for killing people with sneak attack. So things like Flick of the Wrist and being able to feint from Invisible Blade and such. Are there any handbooks out there for optimizing sneak attack?
#2 Maat_Mons Aug 09, 2010 16:00:21	You might want to check out this thread. Here are some useful items: Deadly Precision: MIC, +1, deal an extra +1d6 sneak attack Deadly Precision: CAdv, +2, deal an extra +2d6 sneak attack Mantle of the Predator: MIC, 8,000, deal +1d6 damage against foes denied dex bonus Rogue's Vest: MIC, 18,000, deal an extra +1d6 sneak attack
#3 awaken_D_M_golem Aug 09, 2010 16:29:07	Thief Of Life - has one early qualifying option. Generic class 1 ; that's it. www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gener... The Rogue guide also provides good strategy and complimentary class ideas. Wraithstrike is probably overpowered early, but keeps up with casters to some higher levels. (otherwise, not my strong suite)
#4 Balthanon Aug 09, 2010 20:54:02	What level are you going to be playing at? The abilities are a touch lackluster in general, particularly with the very slow sneak attack progression, but the 10th level ability's essentia rider has some definite potential. I could see a Rogue/Totemist/Warblade/Thief of Life working out fairly well by picking up tons of attacks, all of which are dealing sneak attack damage. Honestly, that's the best method of killing with sneak attack-- you can boost it via a variety of methods, but 4d6 sneak attack is going to trump 8d6 every time if you're doing it on 8 or 9 attacks rather than 3.
#5 dumorimasoddaa Aug 09, 2010 21:38:57	What level are you going to be playing at? The abilities are a touch lackluster in general, particularly with the very slow sneak attack progression, but the 10th level ability's essentia rider has some definite potential. I could see a Rogue/Totemist/Warblade/Thief of Life working out fairly well by picking up tons of attacks, all of which are dealing sneak attack damage. Honestly, that's the best method of killing with sneak attack-- you can boost it via a variety of methods, but 4d6 sneak attack is going to trump 8d6 every time if you're doing it on 8 or 9 attacks rather than 3. Yep focusing on attack numbers and to hit bonuses will help more than adding sneak attack power. One could consider going as a close range archer and using a splitting weapon to get x2 the attacks and keeping your ass safe enough. With aptitude on the weapon as well you can use the crossbow sniper feat to increase you sneak attack range to 60'. Also if you did take generic class blah at lvl 1 DM allowing and just soak the multi-class penalty (if any) for a few early levels you should be on par or may even just above the basic power level of the rest of the group.
#6 cycada Aug 09, 2010 22:02:25	You could also (questionably) qualify for it with Halfling Racial Rogue 1, though that's Thrown +2d6.....It's still SA though, so YMMV. Though, if this qualification req is ran by your DM, be quick to remind him that Thief of Life is lackluster anyway.... ~Cy
#7 Balthanon Aug 09, 2010 22:50:40	Also if you did take generic class blah at lvl 1 DM allowing and just soak the multi-class penalty (if any) for a few early levels you should be on par or may even just above the basic power level of the rest of the group. A single class should never incur multiclass penalties if your only other classes are prestige classes. I actually think the halfling racial rogue is a more valid entry point than generic expert (though difficult, since none of the skills are class skills), since the generic classes were not intended to be used with the existing class system-- they were supposed to replace it. I actually always thought it would be kind of interesting to expand the list of "class abilities" you can pick up by picking out some decent ones from various standard and prestige classes.
#8 dead_weasel Aug 12, 2010 16:11:17	I actually think the halfling racial rogue is a more valid entry point than generic expert (though difficult, since none of the skills are class skills), since the generic classes were not intended to be used with the existing class system-- they were supposed to replace it. I actually always thought it would be kind of interesting to expand the list of "class abilities" you can pick up by picking out some decent ones from various standard and prestige classes. "If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes). You can still include prestige classes, if you wish to add that level of complexity to your game, but you may have to tweak some prestige class prerequisites that include class features not available to these classes." I feel that the Prestige Bard, Paladin and Ranger were chiefly intended to be used alongside the Generic classes. At any rate - because it allows entry at level 2, instead of level 4 (standard Rogue) or 5 (Expert), the halfling Rogue variant seems a clear winner to me. If you actually have to play that first level of skill-less, ranged-SA-only Rogue... well, that is less attractive.
#9 Senevri Aug 17, 2010 12:01:31	Off the top of my head... 1. You don't really gain any benefit from maximizing sneak attack. What you _really_ want to do is KILL your opponents. 2. Looks like the best mechanical benefit from the class is the half-HD as essentia, so you want some Incarnum to go. So... (doing research, update later) Okay, here's what I'm thinking: You want an on-hit kill effect, preferrably, but if that's not feasible, you'll want to deal damage. Naturally. So... Without shenanigans, a Rogue 3/ToL 10, leaving you at BAB +9, and not terribly impressive all around. Y'know, I think your strongest pick at that point is Ur-Priest. You can still buff yourself back to respectability with the spells you'd get, although your CL will be only 11, and there are: - some AoE aura spells which drain HP, making opponents more easily dead with SA - Ranged touch spells you can use to SA, and thus kill with. Also, for your consideration, I present that a Spell-storing enchantment is the best a weapon can possibly have, for your purposes. It can grant your additional 10 dice of damage per hit, easily, and only has value of +1 weapon enhancement. edit No, just no. I'm sorry, from where I'm looking, this class just mostly sucks really really bad. Your best bet is, most likely, get 8 levels in an Incarnum build, getting more abilities than you can fuel, then at level 9, dip swordsage and get Assassin's stance, qualifying you for ToL. Then, finish ToL, and use it's capstone to fuel your wide array of soulmelds/incarnum feats. Incarnate 3-4, for +1 cap, Improved Essentia Cap, maybe Expanded Soulmeld Cap (now goes up to +7), Indigo Strike (up to +12 damage on sneak attacks), Bloodwar Gauntlets for +7 to attack rolls, Fellmist Robe so you can stealth whenever you like, evil Incarnate Avatar for +2 damage per hit per essentia. Fill all that up for 5d6+24 damage on your sneak attacks. Hm. Yes. Incarnate 4, (shadow hand) Swordsage 4 for starters - you'll have IL 6, so you already qualify for Assassin's Stance and could even spend a feat to pick it. In fact, you can go SS 5 and finish Thief of Life by level 19. Hm. Incarnate 4, Swordsage 1, Umbral Disciple 3, Swordsage +1, pick assassin's stance, you effectively have Hide in Plain Sight, finish Thief of Life and cap off with Warblade, for an example. You'll have 6 dice of sneak attack, dealing that +24, AND STR, and, if you like, DEX in addition.
#10 phaedrusxy Aug 17, 2010 13:49:04	You need two levels of swordsage. The first stance you pick has to be 1st level.
#11 Senevri Aug 17, 2010 14:02:53	Indeed.
#12 steelblue Aug 17, 2010 23:20:54	Senevri, that's pretty sweet. I have to confess that I looked at the class, ran some of the usual ToB/rogue tricks, and decided I didn't know enough incarnum to make it better than completely awful. And then you made me feel like a quitter with that sick awesome build. Very nice.
#13 Senevri Aug 18, 2010 10:29:45	It's all about reading, and endurance. Well... ToL doesn't get much - a bunch of defensive abilities, but that didn't make the Survivor any good, either. So, you gotta work with what everyone gets - increased Essentia cap based on HD and increased IL. You can pretty much pick feats as you need/want them. You'll get at least some benefit from Borrow Vigor, as I doubt you'll have the essentia to keep all your soulmelds filled to the brim. So at least there's _some_ feeling of actually gaining abilities as you level. Feat-wise... Well, there's Improved Essentia Cap - pick that when you have the essentia to fill something up, Expanded Soulmeld Cap can wait 'til you have a kick-ass soulmeld and the essentia to fill it with. Probably Adaptive Style + Shadow Blade combo. I wouldn't go crazy on Bonus Essentia - part of the 'fun' is filling up your soulmelds with Thief Of Life's stolen essentia. Indigo Strike is probably a must-have, but otherwise there isn't much in the way of feats. You should have 7 essentia, +1 if you're a Rilkan or something. This means, you can keep _one_ ability completely filled even at the end, and that your abilities should be nicely powered until Thief of Life's benefits start kicking in.