Maximizing Sneak Attack

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

seppuku_squirrels

Jun 05, 2008 2:57:58
Hi,

I'm playing in a "non-good" campaign where we are starting at 6th level. All 3.5 books available but no Dragon mags and no psionics but non-psionic feats from those books are ok. Stats are set as 16,15,14,13,12,11 with a 2 point add to any one stat, do racial adjustments and then add 1 point for 4th level. We get 13,000 gp for total equipment purchase. Magic items must be in the DMG. No more than 4,999 on any wonderous magic item. Maximum enchantment bonus for any weapon or armor is limited to 2 (maximum 8999 gp value each). No intelligent items can be purchased. No cursed items can be purchased.

I'm wanting to build a character who will get the most sneak attack, skirmish, death attack, whatever 1d6 adds thru the likely levels this campaign will play which I expect will be 6-9. I want the flanking or skirmishing or flatfooted attack damage to have the most possible dice combo without playing straight Rogue. What are the most extra dice to roll that we can get at 6th level and what progressions would you suggest for the next 3 levels? I've been pondering the Factotum to be the party skill monkey and get some minor spell use plus it does get a d6 for an inspiration point with Cunning Strike, adding in a rogue level and the 6th level as Assassin. This gives 3d6 on flank when using inspiration (and 2d6 when not) plus gives many more fun toys when opposed to playing a straight Rogue. However, inspiration spends quickly. Any better suggestions for class dips to get fun toys to go with more Sneak Attack type options for levels 6-9 would be appreciated. Thanks.
#2

cjerowe

Jun 05, 2008 7:21:38
Rogue 3 / Scout 3

1: Scout 1
2: Scout 2
3: Scout 3
4: Rogue 1
5: Rogue 2
6: Rogue 3

Feats:
H: whatever
1: whatever
3: whatever
6: Swift Ambusher (Complete Scoundrel)

This would give you 2d6 Sneak attack and 2d6 skirmish when you move 10' into a flanking position.

After this: Rogue forever

Feats:
9: Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel)

At 9th level you would be looking at 3d6 sneak attack, 5d6 skirmish when you move 20' into a flanking postion or during a suprise round. 3d6/3d6 when you move 10'.

At 20th Level: 16d6 when you move 20' into a flanking position, 14d6 when you move 10'

That being said, you are going to be useless against anything immune to critical hits or precision damage.

Alternatively you could go: Ranger 2 / Scout 3 / Rogue 15 (must be human, half-elf or halfling to avoid xp penalties)

Take swift ambusher, swift hunter and improved skirmish. This would give you 2 favored enemies (take undead and either golems or oozes) that you could apply your skirmish damage to (7d6 at 20th level), but would reduce your overall sneak attack damage by 1 dice from 16 to 15 at 20th level.
#3

rebel7284

Jun 05, 2008 9:53:27
How about:

Rogue 1
Spellthief 1
Scout 1
Ninja 1
Wizard 1
Unseen Seer 4

I recommend fractional BAB if possible.
Feats:
Craven (+1 damage per hit die sneak attack)
Improved Skirmish
Practiced Spellcaster [Wizard]
Open

Your starting sneak attack damage is 8d6 if you move 20 feet.
Use advanced learning from Unseen seer to pick up Hunter's Eye. Cast it as a swift action for another 3d6 sneak attack for a total of 11d6. If you can find ways to pump your divination caster level by 2, that goes up to 12d6.

Edit: Also note that sneak attacking with rays and orbs is sexy.
#4

jafonel

Jun 05, 2008 10:29:39
This build is not mine. I think it was originally posted by friendlyfrog with the kelvezu idea, though others may have added some of the equipment.

Elven Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen seer 7/Arcane trickster 8.

Feats: Otherworldly (PGtF), Practiced spellcaster (CArc), Extend spell, Persistent spell (CArc), Martial study: any Shadow hand (ToB), Martial stance: Assassin's stance (ToB), Craven (CoR).

Advanced learning spells: Hunter's eye (PHBII), Grave strike (SC).

Equipment: Ring of arcane might (CArc), Orange ioun stone, Rogue's vest (DMGII), Metamagic rod: Extend, +1 Rapier of Deadly precision and Speed (CAdv), +1 Necklace of natural weapons of Deadly precision (CAdv and SS).

Active spells: persistent Hunter's eye (PHBII), persistent Wraithstrike (SC), persistent Grave strike (SC), persistent Golem strike (SC), extended Nightstalker's transformation, Polymorph any object into Kelvezu.

2d6 - Rogue
3d6 - Unseen seer
4d6 - Arcane trickster
8d6 - PAO into Kelvezu
8d6 - Persistent Hunter's eye
3d6 - Extended Nightstalker's transfomation
2d6 - Assassin's stance
1d6 - Rogue's vest
2d6 - Deadly precision
20 - Craven
Total sneak attack -- 33d6+20

Each attack the character makes is a touch attack, thanks to persistent Wraithstrike, and the character can sneak attack constructs and undead. Though there is no room for two-weapon fighting feats, so the character needs to use spells to get more than only four attacks.
#5

obbshei

Jun 09, 2008 4:52:20
Damn I really like that build with all that sneak attack dmg. One feat I would choose would probably be Deathly Precision from the Psionics Handbook (yes it's a general feat). The feat allows you to reroll any 1's you roll on your sneak attack damage and if your rolling 30+ D6 I would definently take that feat to maximize dmg potential at least.

On a side note there was a fix to deadly precision weapon enhancement, its only a +1 enhancement and only gives 1d6 sneak attack dmg instead of being a +2 enhancement /w 2d6 added dmg.
#6

cobberman

Jun 09, 2008 10:55:38
Murderer's Gloves (DotU) allow you to reroll SA results of 1 as well as bonus to attack and damage vs. flat-footed targets.
#7

MERC_1

Jun 10, 2008 17:23:22
Active spells: persistent Hunter's eye (PHBII), persistent Wraithstrike (SC), persistent Grave strike (SC), persistent Golem strike (SC), extended Nightstalker's transformation, Polymorph any object into Kelvezu.

2d6 - Rogue
3d6 - Unseen seer
4d6 - Arcane trickster
8d6 - PAO into Kelvezu
8d6 - Persistent Hunter's eye
3d6 - Extended Nightstalker's transfomation
2d6 - Assassin's stance
1d6 - Rogue's vest
2d6 - Deadly precision
20 - Craven
Total sneak attack -- 33d6+20

Each attack the character makes is a touch attack, thanks to persistent Wraithstrike, and the character can sneak attack constructs and undead. Though there is no room for two-weapon fighting feats, so the character needs to use spells to get more than only four attacks.

Ok I like the build, but is there some way to make more then ONE ranged sneak attack per turn?
What is a Kelvezu? How does it add +8d6 sneak attack???
What is a Craven and where do I get one?
#8

phoenix00

Jun 10, 2008 19:28:33
Ok I like the build, but is there some way to make more then ONE ranged sneak attack per turn?
What is a Kelvezu? How does it add +8d6 sneak attack???
What is a Craven and where do I get one?

Trade out Sorcerer for Wizard. Take Blue Dragon Heritage. Do spell points instead of normal spell slots. Blue Dragon Heritage allows you to do 9 attacks a round with 1d6+Cha damage in electricity.

Kelvezu is an outsider race which has a +8d6 racial sneak attack ability. Great polymorph form.

9*(1d6+Cha+Sneak Attack)

Lets say we only have 30d6 sneak attack. That is about 1000 average damage per turn.
#9

operation_shoestring

Jun 11, 2008 6:25:40
Pish, just 33? I've seen higher. And that build loses way too many caster levels.

Rogue1/Wizard5/Unseen Seer10/Divine Oracle4 gives you much better casting. And Evasion. And Uncanny dodge. And Spont. Div.

With Persisted Hunter's Eye, you already have 13d6 sneak attack, which is already more than enough. The focus should be to get more accuracy and more ways of pulling off sneak attack. Precise Strike is great for that. 10d6 SA and +6 to it is vastly better than 13d6 SA. It's like power attack for rogues.

Grease is a good way of setting enemies up for SA. So is Greater Invisibility. Reach Spell+Wracking Touch also works.

My personal favorite gimmick is a Persisted Invisible Cloud of Knives. Extra attacks, you say?
#10

brainpiercing

Jun 11, 2008 9:31:03
My personal favorite gimmick is a Persisted Invisible Cloud of Knives. Extra attacks, you say?

What I don't get about cloud of knives is how many attacks you can make with it per round. Only one seems a bit lacklustre.

A good way of getting more attacks is growing some more arms.

My epic necro has a minion that is a Swashbuckler3/Rogue3/Chameleon10/Transmuter1/UnseenSeer3. He has four arms (a class ability from a homebrew PrC my necro has which allows me to add appendages to other undead) and Greater Multiweapon fighting. With his 14-16 attacks/round (one Bite from BotW and one tail attack from Infernal Transformation) and only 11D6 sneak attack (3 from class abilities, 8 from Hunter's eye, and that's with CL buffs) that's still a LOT of D6s + 20damage from Craven, +10 from Int. Thanks to another minion (Incantatar) I can persist all his buffs which turns him into a serious powerhouse for a lvl 20 char, even though he only got 170000gp for equipment. (Note that I am using Transmuter1 to qualify for Unseen Seer but advancing Chameleon casting, to get a CL of 24 for Divinations before buffs.) Damage can surpass 1500/full attack (granted with a few crits), with a main attack bonus of +46 and persistent Wraithstrike. Mind that isn't even pushing it, I didn't put a lot of money into optimising his equipment for sneak attack, I'm just using his many attacks to debuff spell resistance with four Shattermantle Kukris.
#11

MERC_1

Jun 11, 2008 17:07:16
The focus should be to get more accuracy and more ways of pulling off sneak attack. Precise Strike is great for that. 10d6 SA and +6 to it is vastly better than 13d6 SA. It's like power attack for rogues.

Grease is a good way of setting enemies up for SA. So is Greater Invisibility. Reach Spell+Wracking Touch also works.

My personal favorite gimmick is a Persisted Invisible Cloud of Knives. Extra attacks, you say?

What's Precise Strike?

I like that use of those spells, even though Greater Invisibility is kind of a given option.

The Cloud of Knives is a nice way to reach out and touch someone... What I'm always been thinking is, could I use some of those knives for other things for the duration? For example use two for fighting with or cuting tomatos or whatever!
#12

akeaka

Jul 11, 2008 0:24:07
I think you guys are missing the point of the OP's comment, he wanted level 6-9, not level 20 etc. Some of the things here are great, but he doesn't have use of them as he's only going to be level 10 max at the end of the campaign.
#13

eldariel

Jul 11, 2008 6:08:32
Rogue 2/Scout 4 picking Swift Ambusher and Improved Skirmish as his feats. Alternatively, you could go all-out on Scout (6th level ability allows you to ignore movement penalties from difficult terrain; absolutely incredible for activating Skirmish each turn and for staying alive). Next level could be Rogue 3 for Penetrating Strike ACF (Dungeonscape) giving you half Sneak Attack-damage against immune targets when Flanking. Heck, you could fit two levels of Ranger to the end and pick up Swift Hunter to Skirmish against critical immune targets; then finish off with Scout.

It would be Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Scout 15 in the end with 5d6/5 Skirmish (deals damage to Favored Enemies regardless of their immunities), 4 Favored Enemies, 9d6 Sneak Attack (with half of that usable against immune opponents; 5d6 as per 'when in doubt, round up'). Since you also have the Darkstalker-feat, you can flank creatures with all-around vision.


That said, Factotum 6 would be a perfectly fine option too, as long as you have access to Font of Inspiration (the base class has way too low Inspiration on low levels). Just play a Human with 18 Int and pick Font 3-4 times to truly enable you to use the Factotum-abilities like intended. This also allows you to put sufficient points into Cunning Strike to properly emulate a Rogue. Max out Use Magic Device and Wand people to death.
#14

haksuitte

Jul 11, 2008 9:57:16
Rogue 3 / Scout 3

1: Scout 1
2: Scout 2
3: Scout 3
4: Rogue 1
5: Rogue 2
6: Rogue 3

Feats:
H: whatever
1: whatever
3: whatever
6: Swift Ambusher (Complete Scoundrel)

This would give you 2d6 Sneak attack and 2d6 skirmish when you move 10' into a flanking position.

After this: Rogue forever

Feats:
9: Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel)

At 9th level you would be looking at 3d6 sneak attack, 5d6 skirmish when you move 20' into a flanking postion or during a suprise round. 3d6/3d6 when you move 10'.

Lets optimize this a bit, as this is perhaps a way to go for presicion damage.

*USING stuff from Eldariel to fix broken build*

1:Rogue 1
2: Rogue 2
3: Scout 1
4: Scout 2
5: Scout 3
6: Scout 4
7: Rogue 3 variant from, Dungeonscape for Penetrating Strike

Feats:
H: W.finesse
1: weapon focus:rapier /imp.intiative
3: iron will/combat expertice(+deft strike at lv9) (or something)
6: Swift Ambusher (Complete Scoundrel), Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel)


and by level6, you have 3d6 sneak + skirmish 2d6+1ac/4d6+3ac.
lv 7-9:
7:thief lv3: +1d6 SA, +1ac skirmish,+1bab.
8:thief lv4, improved uncanny dodge, +1bab (total +6/+1)
9:scout: feat, improved evasion,+1d6 SA, +1d6 skirmish.
(I hope that got it right after moving them around)

lv9 total: bab +6/+1, SA 5d6, skirmish 3d6+2ac/5d6+4ac
feats lv7&9 free, ½ sneak to crit immune when flanking.

skills:Tumble 12 + any dex/int skills

-----
10-12: scout, assassin if evil or something else.
-----
ability spread:dex,str,int,con,cha,wis
or ...con,wis,cha

str15(+1 lv4),dex16(+2),con13, int14, wis11,cha12
(+1 con lv8 for +8 hitpoints +1 fort save)

Do you think I posted Scout 4/Rogue 2 just for fun? No, the problem is, Scout 2/Rogue 1 doesn't qualify for Swift Ambusher.

You are absolutely right. I was a bit tired last night, and missed +1ac from the requirements.

Altough I still like Telling blow, for beating uncanny dodge and improved ud.
Also useful for situations where party is separeted or too far away, or cant flank.
And sneak attaking that guard on second round that didnt die on the first SA.

Craven: really don´t like -2 on fear saves. +1 on SA dice isnt going to help that much, unless a lot of dices.
twf: this build cant hit **** with -2 on attacks, missing 3 bab at lv9. And as I have understanded it, when skirmishing you only use 1 weapon on that strike. 2 weapons would require full attack. (I dont have complete champion, so dont know bonuses from those PrC:s)
#15

eldariel

Jul 11, 2008 10:29:10
Do you think I posted Scout 4/Rogue 2 just for fun? No, the problem is, Scout 2/Rogue 1 doesn't qualify for Swift Ambusher. The only way to get both, Swift Ambusher and Improved Skirmish by the start of the game is to take Rogue 2/Scout 4, taking Rogue 3 and Penetrating Strike the next level.

So it'd go like this: Scout 3/Rogue 2/Scout +1

1st. Feat (combat style, probably)
3rd. Feat (more combat style)
6th. Swift Ambusher, Improved Skirmish


Also, Telling Blow isn't optimizing. It's anti-optimizing. It doesn't double your Precision-damage on crit; it simply allows you to deal it on Crit if you normally didn't qualify. Useful once in a lifetime save for very specific Hunter's Mercy-builds (which this does not belong to); you need to roll crit, you need to confirm crit AND you need to be attacking an opponent you wouldn't otherwise be dealing precision to.

Further, Weapon Focus is waste of a feat. Now, feats that could be useful on those levels:
-Weapon Finesse
-Craven [Champions of Ruin Pg. 17]
-Two-Weapon Fighting (along with one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion [Complete Champion], Undeath Domain for Extra Turning and Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] to activate Skirmish each turn while still full attacking)
-Darkstalker [Lords of Madness Pg. 179]
#16

rabidpirateman

Jul 11, 2008 11:37:35
Telling Blow is terrible. Man, its just so NATURAL to say that! Its like a harmonics in my mouth: Tell-Ing-Blow-Is-Ter-Ib-Al.

How hard is it to flank? Just go to whatever baddie your tank is fighting and stab him. If its too hard to do that, your party needs direction: talk about strategy and tell them that, GEE, you would do a lot more damage if they would open up a square to let you flank!

You are wasting a feat on Telling Blow. You shouldn't be attacking things that aren't flatfooted or flanked anyway.

I'd go Scout 3/Rogue 2/Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian. Pouncing Two Weapon Fighting, Finess, Imp Skirmish and Swift Ambusher for three attacks with Skirmish and Sneak.
#17

eardatch

Jul 11, 2008 12:21:11
I wonder how this would work out.

16 in int, 15 +1 dex, 14 con, 13 wis, 12 cha, 11 str. Race: Goblin, +2 to int
Final stats: str 9, dex 18, con 14, int 18, wis 13, cha 10

Rogue 3, SA fighter 1, Swashbuckler 1, Assassin 1

Feats: Weapon finnesse (bonus) quick draw (1) Flick of the Wrist (3) Ability focus (death attack) (6)

Hmm, not too steller, +4 BAB, +4d6 SA, Death attack DC 17
Attack: +10 with +1 weapon

On the skill side you would have a nice +4 to hide and MS through goblin.
#18

rabidpirateman

Jul 11, 2008 13:46:30
I wonder how this would work out.

16 in int, 15 +1 dex, 14 con, 13 wis, 12 cha, 11 str. Race: Goblin, +2 to int
Final stats: str 9, dex 18, con 14, int 18, wis 13, cha 10

Rogue 3, SA fighter 1, Swashbuckler 1, Assassin 1

Feats: Weapon finnesse (bonus) quick draw (1) Flick of the Wrist (3) Ability focus (death attack) (6)

Hmm, not too steller, +4 BAB, +4d6 SA, Death attack DC 17
Attack: +10 with +1 weapon

On the skill side you would have a nice +4 to hide and MS through goblin.

I like Goblins. In my campaigns, Whisper Gnomes are a LA+2 race, so it kind of works out. However, the Cheesy Gnomes are strictly better.

Air Goblins aren't that bad: +4 Dex, -2 Str and Con.
#19

aelryinth

Jul 11, 2008 14:43:06
I would ignore the Persisted Wraithstrike builds. Any DM that allows them that freely should be having NPC's doing the same, which means he's setting the party up for TPK's.

For a weapon, look the sword of subtlety. +4/+4 TH/DMG when making a sneak attack is much better then Deadly Precision any way you score it.

One level of Swordsage grants you some Shadow Hand manuvers. There's two stances of interest...one lets you determine the square you are getting help with being flanked from (so, for instance, you can fight side by side the tank melee), and the other adds +2d6 SA, if you can get a normal flank.

The Shadow Blade feat lets you add your Dex in dmg to the weapons for the Shadow school. Blade meditation makes up for the +1 BAB you lose, and you get Wis to AC in light armor, if you can use it.

I'd also steer clear of Polymorph Cheese, unless your DM is one to let Persistent Wraithstrike through. More abuse comes out of that line of spells then any other.

Don't ignore your BAB. For your SA to work, you have to hit. Too many of the above are relying on Wraithstrike to do the work for them, a spell that many DM's just flat out ban for its brokenness.

I'd recommend taking the levels above with rogue and scout so you can stack SA and Skirmish dmg, grab swashbuckler for free weapon finesse, consider taking it to 3rd for Int to dmg, and then grab 2-3 levels of Swordsage with a focus on Shadow Hand. You should be able to get a useful manuver or three (Diamond Mind for will saves!), and access to the first Shadow Hand teleport manuver, as well as one of the above very useful stances.

Telling Blow is a 'tanking' SA feat...it's only truly useful if you are fighting alone...OR if the enemy is immune to SA, via uncanny dodge or fortification or what not. In all other circumstances, you should be flanking. Weigh your few feats against the cost of getting it...but Rapier is a Shadow Hand Weapon.

Lastly, there are augment gems for weapons to allow crits and SA on undead and constructs. Grab yourself one of each, the undead first, since it also grants Ghost Touch to your weapon.

===Aelryinth
#20

priamon

Jul 12, 2008 0:18:53
This build is not mine. I think it was originally posted by friendlyfrog with the kelvezu idea, though others may have added some of the equipment.

Elven Rogue 3/Wizard 2/Unseen seer 7/Arcane trickster 8.

Feats: Otherworldly (PGtF), Practiced spellcaster (CArc), Extend spell, Persistent spell (CArc), Martial study: any Shadow hand (ToB), Martial stance: Assassin's stance (ToB), Craven (CoR).

Advanced learning spells: Hunter's eye (PHBII), Grave strike (SC).

Equipment: Ring of arcane might (CArc), Orange ioun stone, Rogue's vest (DMGII), Metamagic rod: Extend, +1 Rapier of Deadly precision and Speed (CAdv), +1 Necklace of natural weapons of Deadly precision (CAdv and SS).

Active spells: persistent Hunter's eye (PHBII), persistent Wraithstrike (SC), persistent Grave strike (SC), persistent Golem strike (SC), extended Nightstalker's transformation, Polymorph any object into Kelvezu.

2d6 - Rogue
3d6 - Unseen seer
4d6 - Arcane trickster
8d6 - PAO into Kelvezu
8d6 - Persistent Hunter's eye
3d6 - Extended Nightstalker's transfomation
2d6 - Assassin's stance
1d6 - Rogue's vest
2d6 - Deadly precision
20 - Craven
Total sneak attack -- 33d6+20

Each attack the character makes is a touch attack, thanks to persistent Wraithstrike, and the character can sneak attack constructs and undead. Though there is no room for two-weapon fighting feats, so the character needs to use spells to get more than only four attacks.

You know the problem with builds like this, your always going to have trouble killing a rogue of = level.
#21

rabidpirateman

Jul 12, 2008 10:07:18
You know the problem with builds like this, your always going to have trouble killing a rogue of = level.

How's that? Tell him to make a will save or a fort save and the fights over.

They have more sneak attack and HP, but you have spells. No contest.
#22

priamon

Jul 12, 2008 16:06:15
How many spells are you going to have that are going to be that effective to a level 20 character after casting 4 Persistant spells, and an extended spell, and another ~lv 4 Polymorph spell? And the rogue will be immune to sneak attack damage from you via Uncanny Dodge.
#23

rabidpirateman

Jul 12, 2008 19:38:47
How many spells are you going to have that are going to be that effective to a level 20 character after casting 4 Persistant spells, and an extended spell, and another ~lv 4 Polymorph spell? And the rogue will be immune to sneak attack damage from you via Uncanny Dodge.

...As many spells you have left?

Not to mention your 4 Persisted Spells, Extended Spells and the Polymorph Spells probably help a bit?

Timestop = GG?
#24

priamon

Jul 13, 2008 1:26:55
...As many spells you have left?

Not to mention your 4 Persisted Spells, Extended Spells and the Polymorph Spells probably help a bit?

Timestop = GG?

The spells that are persisted all give bonus SA dice, thats the point of the build, so If a rogue with imp Uncanny Dodge CAN'T be sneak attacked, what good are the spells going to do you?
Not to mention the build uses a Ranger only spell Hunter's Eye which I can't see any where in the build how they attained the spell.
It Also uses Gravestrike Which is Cleric/Pal only.
You have 1 7th, 0 8th, and 1 9th level spell to use against the Rogue, and all of the previous levels worth of spells. Rogue 20 has Evasion/Imp Evasion which makes DMG spells with reflex saves a bad choice just on the basis that it MIGHT not work.
Geared equally to a 20th level character, you'll probably have a pretty good Dex which translates to high Touch AC which makes most of the touch spells a difficult gamble.
A 20 Rogue is higher on the HP Curve which makes Time stop a gamble as well since as your going to get a random # of rounds between 2-5 to act. Furthermore- During a time stop other creatures are INVULNERABLE to your attacks and spells.
Not to mention depending on who gets the drop on who, The rogue could very possibly end the build in questions life in 1 hit with just his base 10D6 SA dmg+weapon DMG, + whatever else.
So yes. Rogue 20 Easily over comes this build.
#25

rabidpirateman

Jul 13, 2008 12:27:32
The spells that are persisted all give bonus SA dice, thats the point of the build, so If a rogue with imp Uncanny Dodge CAN'T be sneak attacked, what good are the spells going to do you?
Not to mention the build uses a Ranger only spell Hunter's Eye which I can't see any where in the build how they attained the spell.
It Also uses Gravestrike Which is Cleric/Pal only.
You have 1 7th, 0 8th, and 1 9th level spell to use against the Rogue, and all of the previous levels worth of spells. Rogue 20 has Evasion/Imp Evasion which makes DMG spells with reflex saves a bad choice just on the basis that it MIGHT not work.
Geared equally to a 20th level character, you'll probably have a pretty good Dex which translates to high Touch AC which makes most of the touch spells a difficult gamble.
A 20 Rogue is higher on the HP Curve which makes Time stop a gamble as well since as your going to get a random # of rounds between 2-5 to act. Furthermore- During a time stop other creatures are INVULNERABLE to your attacks and spells.
Not to mention depending on who gets the drop on who, The rogue could very possibly end the build in questions life in 1 hit with just his base 10D6 SA dmg+weapon DMG, + whatever else.
So yes. Rogue 20 Easily over comes this build.

I don't know how the build got some of the spells, but lets say that it just had them. It wont help, since the rogue wont be affected by SA.
Why would a caster use spells that require a reflex save on Rogues? Fort and Will are the primary save spells to cast on anything, since they have the most dire effects.
1 ninth level spell means crap like Time Stop and Shapechange and Wish and blahdiblahdiblahblahblah. Compared to a rogue, you will have 10d6 sneak attack, which wont be useful when one shapechanges into a construct.
As I said above for the Touch AC point. There are enough spells that dont require a to-hit roll to keep you safe.
A rogue will have d6 Hitdie as opposed to d4. The difference is 1.0 HP per hitdie on average. If you wanna talk survivability, the rogue-gish will also be able to fly, go invisible, shapechange, stop time, teleport, use freedom of movement, summon things, buff, debuff, etc. A rogue can use magic device to mimic some of these abilities, but he has to buy them. Wizards have to prepare their slots and buy whatever necessary components are needed, which will cost less, allowing them to buy more things (like a Sega Dreamcast).
I'm not saying Rogue 20 is bad. I'm saying that at 20, if something that doesn't have level 9 spells is facing something that does, the chances for survival on behalf on the noncaster are slim to none, SA or no.
#26

amadithegreat

Jul 13, 2008 12:28:55
Rokugan Ninja 1
Ninja 1
Rogue 1
Spellthief 1
Psychic Rogue 1
Lurk 1
=>
Assasin 1
Avenger 1
Guild Thief 1
Guild Thief of Amn 1
Psychic Assasin 1 (Needs Practiced Manifester, though.)

And so on. You get the drill, 20 different classes by level 20 should be funny enough.
#27

rabidpirateman

Jul 13, 2008 12:34:27
Rokugan Ninja 1
Ninja 1
Rogue 1
Spellthief 1
Psychic Rogue 1
Lurk 1
=>
Assasin 1
Avenger 1
Guild Thief 1
Guild Thief of Amn 1
Psychic Assasin 1 (Needs Practiced Manifester, though.)

And so on. You get the drill, 20 different classes by level 20 should be funny enough.

I hope you're using fractional BAB.
#28

staticfury

Jul 13, 2008 16:06:18
Fractional BAB is a great idea IMO. Just because you change classes as you level up should not dictate you do not get better skill with hitting things.

There are a number of ways a spellcaster can cast "Hunter's Eye" or "Grave Strike". The build in question is Unseen Seer, and at 2nd, 5th, and 8th the character may select any Divination spell of any class-list no higher then his highest spell level and add it to his spell list.

Also, there is a variant available in Complete Champion, that allows you to spontaneously drop any spell memorized to cast a divination spell of equal or lower level.


But seriously the argument people are posing about Rogue vs Unseen Seer @ lvl 20 is very one-sided. You're including most of the rogue abilities, and only one of the Unseen Seer's.
What happens when a rogue finds someone he can not critically hit? Or outflank? His damage drops to a piddly 1d6 per round. Switch to wands? @ 20, low DC spells + low CL from wants seem useless.
An unseen seer? He just changes tactics, use different spells. If you are set up correctly, you can sneak attack undead, constructs, plants, and I think (but not sure) oozes for half your dice.

So about rogue vs unseen seer? the rogue first has to get you flat-footed, because he can't flank you alone.
The unseen seer can simply cast Blindness, or Hold Person. And the rogue in question is virtually dead.

I don't know many tricks to cause you to be flat-footed, but this seems much simpler then people say.
----------------
To original poster:
For max sneak attack by lvl 6?
Rogue 3 (for evasion)
Spellthief 1
Fighter (Rogue SA Variant)1
Assassin1

And then you can pursue levels in Unseen Seer for additional casting, or continue with Assassin.