Maximizing the AC on a Iajutsu master - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Maximizing the AC on a Iajutsu master

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
selaphiel
May 03, 2009 19:21:10 I was looking at the blade dancer and iajutsu master (I think that is how it is spelled) and I was wondering how I could make a character that was sort of a samurai but unarmored. I also was thinking of taking a level of monk, but taking the carmendine monk to get int to armor again. Would that make it 2x int to AC or would it not stack? Also any way to flurry with a katana?
#2
selaphiel
May 03, 2009 20:35:59 Basically you can't wear armor and you get int to armor with iajutsu master, and with carmendine monk you add in to ac instead of wisdom. Creates less MAD so I figured I would do that. Any other ideas how I can get some more unarmored AC?
#3
sofawall
May 03, 2009 21:27:50
I was looking at the blade dancer and iajutsu master (I think that is how it is spelled) and I was wondering how I could make a character that was sort of a samurai but unarmored. I also was thinking of taking a level of monk, but taking the carmendine monk to get int to armor again. Would that make it 2x int to AC or would it not stack? Also any way to flurry with a katana?

The AC would stack. Don't know about Flurry.
#4
nickresonance
May 03, 2009 21:32:52 There are some feats from the Eberron Campaign Setting main book that let you flurry with non-monk weapons, but bastard sword (katana) isn't one of them. However, a fifth level Shou Disciple is able to flurry with any weapon.
#5
wings_of_peace
May 03, 2009 23:00:31 What would happen if he split the monk ac bonus two ways? Like if he war a monk belt (I think thats the monk ac item) then took sorc with the feat that makes cha your stat bonus to ac instead of wis and combined that with kungfu genius?
#6
sofawall
May 04, 2009 0:53:05 So, you're saying make it wis from belt, THEN make it Cha from feat, THEN Int from other feat?

Why take the Cha feat, then?
#7
selaphiel
May 04, 2009 0:53:35 What is Kung fu genius?
#8
wings_of_peace
May 04, 2009 0:57:53 It's a feat that makes it so that your monk ac is based on int instead of wis. I've never seen it discussed what would happen if it was used at the same time as other feats that do the same thing but for different stats though. It's normally used with a monk belt which gives you monk ac when armorless which means wisdom bonus to ac on an item.
#9
sofawall
May 04, 2009 1:05:00 It would use the stat of whichever feat was taken last. It's Instead Of, not In Addition To.

Your way seems purposefully distorting things for personal gain. We have a word for that around here...
#10
selaphiel
May 04, 2009 1:14:15 Carmendine monk is just using int instead of wis. It makes nice synergy for the iajutsu master which adds int to ac. Back to my question, would it stack?
#11
sofawall
May 04, 2009 7:16:49
The AC would stack. Don't know about Flurry.

...
#12
phaedrusxy
May 04, 2009 11:38:47 This might help: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg6530#msg6530
#13
selaphiel
May 04, 2009 19:48:35 My bad Sofa, missed it. Alright, thanks.
#14
true_shinken
May 04, 2009 20:09:47 Blade Dancer from Dragon Compendium works a lot better than Monk for this. Then you go into Blade Dancer from OA.
#15
gorfnad_the_shiznit
May 04, 2009 20:14:31 Not the most optimized per say but Factotum 16/ (Carmendine) Monk 2/ Iaijustu Master 2 would have (Int mod to AC)x3 at level 20. However Factotum 3 gets you Int mod to AC for 1 Inspiration Point for 1 round against 1 opponent. Something to consider adding into Iaijustu builds since it also has Iaijustu Focus as a class skill.
#16
selaphiel
May 04, 2009 20:40:58 If I had oversized two weapon fighting, and monkey grip, would I be able to treat a katana as a light weapon in my offhand if I have the exotic weapon proficiency for it? Would I then be able to take the unorthodox flurry feat to flurry with it?
#17
aelryinth
May 04, 2009 20:41:48 Most DM's are going to rule that untyped bonuses from a Stat derive from the same thing, and don't stack, unless there are explicit rules otherwise. DM's get really leery when you start double and triple stacking benefits from one stat (the most abusive of this seems to be Int, Wis and Con, for some reason...sometimes CHa. I want to Triple-Stack my Str bonus, dammit!)

For example, the Int bonus to AC from a duelist is plainly a Dodge bonus, and works differently then the untyped bonus from a monk.

For your stacking question, using a feat to switch the stat and then trying to get the original bonus from the stat does not work anymore then taking weapon finesse allows you to stack your Dex TH with your Strength score.

==Aelryinth
#18
selaphiel
May 04, 2009 22:56:19 It comes from two sources though. Int to armor as an Iajutsu master and carmendine monk. It is from two classes, and requires only one feat, so not that much finagling.
#19
selaphiel
May 05, 2009 6:51:37 This is a bit of a side note, but if you are a samurai from the Oriental Adventures book and can enchant your weapon in such a way (sort of like the out of CW) can you still wield it, or even keep it, if you take VOP? I mean it fits in the rules I think, other then the problem of procuring enough items of worth to sacrifice to actually enchant the item (gold price can be sacrificed to enchant the weapon equal to the amount it would cost to enchant it higher such as sacrificing the difference between a +1 and +2 sword to make a sword gold to make your weapon +2), but I was wondering if there was some sort of rule against it, after all your lord could front the money if you are that much of an asset to him.
#20
reis
May 05, 2009 8:37:25 it's clearly RAW that untyped bonuses from 2 different classes stack, but most DM's will tell you to go die in a fire if you try to bring it to their table, so you might want to check with yours first.
#21
phaedrusxy
May 05, 2009 11:15:16
it's clearly RAW that untyped bonuses from 2 different classes stack, but most DM's will tell you to go die in a fire if you try to bring it to their table, so you might want to check with yours first.

Why do people always say "Most DMs"? Have you guys done a survey or something? Most DMs that I play with wouldn't bat an eyelash at that.
#22
reis
May 05, 2009 16:27:40 well one can only judge from their own experience, to try and do otherwise is pointless. Your experience might not mesh with mine but that doesn't invalidate either of ours, it just presents a broader view of things.
#23
aelryinth
May 05, 2009 18:52:36
This is a bit of a side note, but if you are a samurai from the Oriental Adventures book and can enchant your weapon in such a way (sort of like the out of CW) can you still wield it, or even keep it, if you take VOP? I mean it fits in the rules I think, other then the problem of procuring enough items of worth to sacrifice to actually enchant the item (gold price can be sacrificed to enchant the weapon equal to the amount it would cost to enchant it higher such as sacrificing the difference between a +1 and +2 sword to make a sword gold to make your weapon +2), but I was wondering if there was some sort of rule against it, after all your lord could front the money if you are that much of an asset to him.

If you look under VOP, it clearly states what you can and cannot keep, and Ancestral weapons are not on that list. So sorry. Even trying to get around the restriction is trying to take advantage of the wording of the feat...a feat about being saintly GOOD and having no material possessions, not how to scheme and get the best bonuses while keeping the benefits of gold.

If you want to break VoP, you really shouldn't even play it, you know? You just don't have the right mindset.

==Aelryinth
#24
sofawall
May 06, 2009 1:15:30 Well, you CAN by tomes with inherent bonuses, or permanent buffs and whatnot.
#25
sofawall
May 06, 2009 1:18:59
If I had oversized two weapon fighting, and monkey grip, would I be able to treat a katana as a light weapon in my offhand if I have the exotic weapon proficiency for it? Would I then be able to take the unorthodox flurry feat to flurry with it?

Well, let's see.

EWP: Bastard Sword lets us use katana one-handed. No need for Monkey Grip (which wouldn't do anything anyway, unless I miss my guess).

OTWF let's us treat a weapon as light for TWF... Not for Flurry. Sorry.
#26
selaphiel
May 07, 2009 2:38:17 Would it be too much of a stretch to allow a VoP character to carry a non-magical Katana that is a family heirloom? Even a wooden one would be do-able, despite the - to attack and damage for being made of wood.
#27
phaedrusxy
May 07, 2009 12:32:21
Would it be too much of a stretch to allow a VoP character to carry a non-magical Katana that is a family heirloom? Even a wooden one would be do-able, despite the - to attack and damage for being made of wood.

Ask your DM. Of course it isn't legal, but I'd guess many would allow it.
#28
sofawall
May 07, 2009 12:43:50 Although it does seem somewhat against VoP. I mean, a wooden Katana could feed a family for a little while. Why not donate it to the cause?
#29
selaphiel
May 08, 2009 0:16:28 Alright, it makes sense that a wooden Katana would be more like a club. If I were to widdle down it a bit to make it easier to wield would that be against my vow? It makes sense to not allow a wooden katana, but a stick widdled to be easier to wield?
#30
bobtheapple
May 08, 2009 5:21:57 Here are a few builds using Iaijutsu Master built around speed and AC.

This is the build closest to what's been suggested so far:
Human (OA)Monk 5/Shou Disciple 5/Blade Dancer 2/Iaijutsu Master 8
Key Feats: Magical Training, Carmendine

Magical training (Eww...) is used to qualify for Blade Dancer, no cheese other than that. You'd get the following: Int to AC twice, +1 AC from monk, +3 from dodge feat(Shou Disciple), 70(!) Base Speed, and flurry with katanas, not to mention Cha to each Iaijutsu damage die and initiative from I.M. Also, One strike two cuts has good synergy with spring attack. Be sure to use the Oriental Adventures version of monk, and trade out the monks bonus feats for bonus Martial Arts Feats.

A little different build, this is focused more on mobility and dual wielding than AC.

Human Ranger 3/Scout 4/Iaijutsu Master 4~8/(CA)Tempest 5/Iajutsu Master X
Feats: [1]EWP(Katana), [1]Weapon Focus(Katana), [b]Two-Weapon Fighting, [3]Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, [6]Quick Draw, [b]Dodge, [9]Improved Two-weapon Fighting, [b]Mobility, [12]Spring Attack, [15]Swift Hunter, [18]Improved Skirmish

You'd get the following: Int to AC, +3 AC(Tempest), +4 AC while skirmishing (Scout and imp skirmish), 40' move, +4d6 damage (skirmish), 2 Favored enemies with full skirmish damage to them (I'd recommend constructs and undead, but any crit immune enemy type is fine) and 4 attacks (may vary on GM fiat) when spring attacking. All this with no penalty for dual-wielding katanas.

Edit: Fixed Feat selection for the second build. Had to drop Raptor school, but it is now a legal build, and probably more playable.
#31
sofawall
May 08, 2009 19:59:36 Where do you lose the penalty?
#32
bobtheapple
May 08, 2009 23:14:36 Exotic weapon proficiency(Bastard Sword) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand, Oversized two-weapon fighting allows you to treat a one-handed weapon in your off-hand as light for purposes of calculating penalties for two-weapon fighting, and the 4th level of Tempest from Complete Adventurer reduces the penalty for using a light off-hand to 0.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 selaphiel May 03, 2009 19:21:10	I was looking at the blade dancer and iajutsu master (I think that is how it is spelled) and I was wondering how I could make a character that was sort of a samurai but unarmored. I also was thinking of taking a level of monk, but taking the carmendine monk to get int to armor again. Would that make it 2x int to AC or would it not stack? Also any way to flurry with a katana?
#2 selaphiel May 03, 2009 20:35:59	Basically you can't wear armor and you get int to armor with iajutsu master, and with carmendine monk you add in to ac instead of wisdom. Creates less MAD so I figured I would do that. Any other ideas how I can get some more unarmored AC?
#3 sofawall May 03, 2009 21:27:50	I was looking at the blade dancer and iajutsu master (I think that is how it is spelled) and I was wondering how I could make a character that was sort of a samurai but unarmored. I also was thinking of taking a level of monk, but taking the carmendine monk to get int to armor again. Would that make it 2x int to AC or would it not stack? Also any way to flurry with a katana? The AC would stack. Don't know about Flurry.
#4 nickresonance May 03, 2009 21:32:52	There are some feats from the Eberron Campaign Setting main book that let you flurry with non-monk weapons, but bastard sword (katana) isn't one of them. However, a fifth level Shou Disciple is able to flurry with any weapon.
#5 wings_of_peace May 03, 2009 23:00:31	What would happen if he split the monk ac bonus two ways? Like if he war a monk belt (I think thats the monk ac item) then took sorc with the feat that makes cha your stat bonus to ac instead of wis and combined that with kungfu genius?
#6 sofawall May 04, 2009 0:53:05	So, you're saying make it wis from belt, THEN make it Cha from feat, THEN Int from other feat? Why take the Cha feat, then?
#7 selaphiel May 04, 2009 0:53:35	What is Kung fu genius?
#8 wings_of_peace May 04, 2009 0:57:53	It's a feat that makes it so that your monk ac is based on int instead of wis. I've never seen it discussed what would happen if it was used at the same time as other feats that do the same thing but for different stats though. It's normally used with a monk belt which gives you monk ac when armorless which means wisdom bonus to ac on an item.
#9 sofawall May 04, 2009 1:05:00	It would use the stat of whichever feat was taken last. It's Instead Of, not In Addition To. Your way seems purposefully distorting things for personal gain. We have a word for that around here...
#10 selaphiel May 04, 2009 1:14:15	Carmendine monk is just using int instead of wis. It makes nice synergy for the iajutsu master which adds int to ac. Back to my question, would it stack?
#11 sofawall May 04, 2009 7:16:49	The AC would stack. Don't know about Flurry. ...
#12 phaedrusxy May 04, 2009 11:38:47	This might help: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg6530#msg6530
#13 selaphiel May 04, 2009 19:48:35	My bad Sofa, missed it. Alright, thanks.
#14 true_shinken May 04, 2009 20:09:47	Blade Dancer from Dragon Compendium works a lot better than Monk for this. Then you go into Blade Dancer from OA.
#15 gorfnad_the_shiznit May 04, 2009 20:14:31	Not the most optimized per say but Factotum 16/ (Carmendine) Monk 2/ Iaijustu Master 2 would have (Int mod to AC)x3 at level 20. However Factotum 3 gets you Int mod to AC for 1 Inspiration Point for 1 round against 1 opponent. Something to consider adding into Iaijustu builds since it also has Iaijustu Focus as a class skill.
#16 selaphiel May 04, 2009 20:40:58	If I had oversized two weapon fighting, and monkey grip, would I be able to treat a katana as a light weapon in my offhand if I have the exotic weapon proficiency for it? Would I then be able to take the unorthodox flurry feat to flurry with it?
#17 aelryinth May 04, 2009 20:41:48	Most DM's are going to rule that untyped bonuses from a Stat derive from the same thing, and don't stack, unless there are explicit rules otherwise. DM's get really leery when you start double and triple stacking benefits from one stat (the most abusive of this seems to be Int, Wis and Con, for some reason...sometimes CHa. I want to Triple-Stack my Str bonus, dammit!) For example, the Int bonus to AC from a duelist is plainly a Dodge bonus, and works differently then the untyped bonus from a monk. For your stacking question, using a feat to switch the stat and then trying to get the original bonus from the stat does not work anymore then taking weapon finesse allows you to stack your Dex TH with your Strength score. ==Aelryinth
#18 selaphiel May 04, 2009 22:56:19	It comes from two sources though. Int to armor as an Iajutsu master and carmendine monk. It is from two classes, and requires only one feat, so not that much finagling.
#19 selaphiel May 05, 2009 6:51:37	This is a bit of a side note, but if you are a samurai from the Oriental Adventures book and can enchant your weapon in such a way (sort of like the out of CW) can you still wield it, or even keep it, if you take VOP? I mean it fits in the rules I think, other then the problem of procuring enough items of worth to sacrifice to actually enchant the item (gold price can be sacrificed to enchant the weapon equal to the amount it would cost to enchant it higher such as sacrificing the difference between a +1 and +2 sword to make a sword gold to make your weapon +2), but I was wondering if there was some sort of rule against it, after all your lord could front the money if you are that much of an asset to him.
#20 reis May 05, 2009 8:37:25	it's clearly RAW that untyped bonuses from 2 different classes stack, but most DM's will tell you to go die in a fire if you try to bring it to their table, so you might want to check with yours first.
#21 phaedrusxy May 05, 2009 11:15:16	it's clearly RAW that untyped bonuses from 2 different classes stack, but most DM's will tell you to go die in a fire if you try to bring it to their table, so you might want to check with yours first. Why do people always say "Most DMs"? Have you guys done a survey or something? Most DMs that I play with wouldn't bat an eyelash at that.
#22 reis May 05, 2009 16:27:40	well one can only judge from their own experience, to try and do otherwise is pointless. Your experience might not mesh with mine but that doesn't invalidate either of ours, it just presents a broader view of things.
#23 aelryinth May 05, 2009 18:52:36	This is a bit of a side note, but if you are a samurai from the Oriental Adventures book and can enchant your weapon in such a way (sort of like the out of CW) can you still wield it, or even keep it, if you take VOP? I mean it fits in the rules I think, other then the problem of procuring enough items of worth to sacrifice to actually enchant the item (gold price can be sacrificed to enchant the weapon equal to the amount it would cost to enchant it higher such as sacrificing the difference between a +1 and +2 sword to make a sword gold to make your weapon +2), but I was wondering if there was some sort of rule against it, after all your lord could front the money if you are that much of an asset to him. If you look under VOP, it clearly states what you can and cannot keep, and Ancestral weapons are not on that list. So sorry. Even trying to get around the restriction is trying to take advantage of the wording of the feat...a feat about being saintly GOOD and having no material possessions, not how to scheme and get the best bonuses while keeping the benefits of gold. If you want to break VoP, you really shouldn't even play it, you know? You just don't have the right mindset. ==Aelryinth
#24 sofawall May 06, 2009 1:15:30	Well, you CAN by tomes with inherent bonuses, or permanent buffs and whatnot.
#25 sofawall May 06, 2009 1:18:59	If I had oversized two weapon fighting, and monkey grip, would I be able to treat a katana as a light weapon in my offhand if I have the exotic weapon proficiency for it? Would I then be able to take the unorthodox flurry feat to flurry with it? Well, let's see. EWP: Bastard Sword lets us use katana one-handed. No need for Monkey Grip (which wouldn't do anything anyway, unless I miss my guess). OTWF let's us treat a weapon as light for TWF... Not for Flurry. Sorry.
#26 selaphiel May 07, 2009 2:38:17	Would it be too much of a stretch to allow a VoP character to carry a non-magical Katana that is a family heirloom? Even a wooden one would be do-able, despite the - to attack and damage for being made of wood.
#27 phaedrusxy May 07, 2009 12:32:21	Would it be too much of a stretch to allow a VoP character to carry a non-magical Katana that is a family heirloom? Even a wooden one would be do-able, despite the - to attack and damage for being made of wood. Ask your DM. Of course it isn't legal, but I'd guess many would allow it.
#28 sofawall May 07, 2009 12:43:50	Although it does seem somewhat against VoP. I mean, a wooden Katana could feed a family for a little while. Why not donate it to the cause?
#29 selaphiel May 08, 2009 0:16:28	Alright, it makes sense that a wooden Katana would be more like a club. If I were to widdle down it a bit to make it easier to wield would that be against my vow? It makes sense to not allow a wooden katana, but a stick widdled to be easier to wield?
#30 bobtheapple May 08, 2009 5:21:57	Here are a few builds using Iaijutsu Master built around speed and AC. This is the build closest to what's been suggested so far: Human (OA)Monk 5/Shou Disciple 5/Blade Dancer 2/Iaijutsu Master 8 Key Feats: Magical Training, Carmendine Magical training (Eww...) is used to qualify for Blade Dancer, no cheese other than that. You'd get the following: Int to AC twice, +1 AC from monk, +3 from dodge feat(Shou Disciple), 70(!) Base Speed, and flurry with katanas, not to mention Cha to each Iaijutsu damage die and initiative from I.M. Also, One strike two cuts has good synergy with spring attack. Be sure to use the Oriental Adventures version of monk, and trade out the monks bonus feats for bonus Martial Arts Feats. A little different build, this is focused more on mobility and dual wielding than AC. Human Ranger 3/Scout 4/Iaijutsu Master 4~8/(CA)Tempest 5/Iajutsu Master X Feats: [1]EWP(Katana), [1]Weapon Focus(Katana), [b]Two-Weapon Fighting, [3]Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, [6]Quick Draw, [b]Dodge, [9]Improved Two-weapon Fighting, [b]Mobility, [12]Spring Attack, [15]Swift Hunter, [18]Improved Skirmish You'd get the following: Int to AC, +3 AC(Tempest), +4 AC while skirmishing (Scout and imp skirmish), 40' move, +4d6 damage (skirmish), 2 Favored enemies with full skirmish damage to them (I'd recommend constructs and undead, but any crit immune enemy type is fine) and 4 attacks (may vary on GM fiat) when spring attacking. All this with no penalty for dual-wielding katanas. Edit: Fixed Feat selection for the second build. Had to drop Raptor school, but it is now a legal build, and probably more playable.
#31 sofawall May 08, 2009 19:59:36	Where do you lose the penalty?
#32 bobtheapple May 08, 2009 23:14:36	Exotic weapon proficiency(Bastard Sword) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand, Oversized two-weapon fighting allows you to treat a one-handed weapon in your off-hand as light for purposes of calculating penalties for two-weapon fighting, and the 4th level of Tempest from Complete Adventurer reduces the penalty for using a light off-hand to 0.