TN, LN, or LE Halruuan Human worshiping Wee Jas with the Magical Training and Practiced Spellcaster feats
Cloistered cleric 5 (domains: knowledge, spell and animal or skalykind) [Improved Turning]
Paragnostic Apostle 2 (See Through the Veil, Mortal Coil) [Spell Focus(Necromancy)]
Doomdreamer 1 (I can cast rage, mage armor and magic missile from anyspell) choose Kiss of undead (Su) so we will need an int of 20, which is no problem at this level.
Bone knight 10 [Divine Energy Focus, Assume Supernatural Ability, Weapon Focus, Stitched-Flesh familiar. You might as well spell-stitch your familiar and yourself if you are undead. If you are you can get 2 Psychic Reformat-able taint feats to throw on DMM persist goodies... allowing Persistent buffs on others]
Paragnostic Apostle 2 (Discern Weakness(humans), Penetrating Insight)
What we need to boost is our Effective Cleric Level, here-after called the EclerL. Keep in mind it is the Doomdreamer PrC that makes this number twice as high. That makes our Commandable undead HD equal to our EclerL rather than half it.
Classes: 5+(2+2)+0+(9+3)=21
The Check: a charisma check of 10 will assure EClerL
We get this automatically by:
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+2 from Knowledge(Religion) with 5 ranks
+3 cloak of chasima +6
+4 venerable age & Tome of Leadership and Influence
a roll of 1 will still achieve the DC
+3 cloak of chasima +6
+4 venerable age & Tome of Leadership and Influence
a roll of 1 will still achieve the DC
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spoiler
Also, tack on Divine Energy Focus. It's from Ghostwalk. While I don't have the book with me at the moment, I remember it being like a better (+2) version of Improved Turning.
Doomdreamer is niiiiice. I can't believe I'd never heard of it before.
It doesn't look like you can take See Through the Veil multiple times, sadly.
the Rakshasa Akchazar's rebuke undead is SURE to stack
Mind explaining this bit?
Unrelated:
You can still have a "patron" if you didn't initially have one and thus have mismatching domains, right?
I believe your domains change if you convert to a different deity/ideal/whatever, though I'm not certain.
edit again - What about gaining arms and using a large number of shields? Or maybe Sacred Animated Bucklers?
I'm fairly certain that multiple Sacred pieces is a "same source" situation, similar to not allowing two of those metal replacement arms that I can't remember the names of to stack. That's another -6.
See through the Veil can only be taken once. That's another -6.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with "spell-stitched familiar", but I'll assume you mean Stitched-Flesh Familiar from Libris Mortis, in which case, again, that does not add to your turning level. It just allows you to control another 4 HD of undead. That's another -4.
-20 with an initial scan.
Effective turning level is not boosted by a high turning check. You're just guaranteed to be able to affect undead that strong. That's -4.
You're absolutely right. I've even made that mistake before myself, so I should have caught it.
I'm fairly certain that multiple Sacred pieces is a "same source" situation, similar to not allowing two of those metal replacement arms that I can't remember the names of to stack. That's another -6.
These are untyped bonuses, and they come from separate items. I can see your point, but don't necessarily agree.
It's much like the iffy stacking situation with Nightsticks, except slightly more favorable -- the items in question are a chain shirt, dastanas, a shield, and a chahar-aina rather than a nightstick, a nightstick, a nightstick, and another nightstick.
See through the Veil can only be taken once. That's another -6.
-12, actually. His original build has See Through the Veil x7, of which only one is valid. Each is +2.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with "spell-stitched familiar", but I'll assume you mean Stitched-Flesh Familiar from Libris Mortis, in which case, again, that does not add to your turning level. It just allows you to control another 4 HD of undead. That's another -4.
Almost certainly. Spell-Stitching your Stitched Flesh Familiar isn't a bad idea, though.
Pretty much the same as how he wrote "shapeshift" instead of "shapechange".-20 with an initial scan.
It might also be worth separating the negative turn resistance items from the turning level boosting items. They do different things, after all.
I'll be honest; when I first clicked on this thread, I was expecting an Artificer.
PS: PlzBreak, I thought you thought that multiple rebuking sources would create separate pools, rather than stacking to determine level? :P
Corrected build:
Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Doomdreamer 1/Ordained Champion 3/Bone Knight 10
(Assuming unfavorable conditions re: Sacred armor/shield stacking. Also assuming bloodline levels do not count towards ECL)
25 level of rebuking from Atropal Scion
+5 Cleric levels
+1 Paragnostic Apostle level
+3 Ordained Champion levels
+3 Bloodline levels
+10 Bone Knight levels
+2 See Through the Veil
+18 (items)
+1 Improved Turning
+2 Divine Energy Focus
+5 Light of Wisdom
*2 Kiss of Undeath
Effective turning level: 150
-8 turn resistance on the target undead (items)
So you can command an 83 HD undead as if it were a 75 HD undead.
Also, tack on Divine Energy Focus.
You absolutely right. For some reason I forgot to add it.
Doomdreamer is niiiiice. I can't believe I'd never heard of it before.
why thank you.
It doesn't look like you can take See Through the Veil multiple times, sadly.
I just double checked this. I didn't see the two little words 'some of' ... sigh. That completely changes the meaning. Honestly, wtf
Mind explaining this bit?
Since you asked nicely: I accidentally reversed the two. MM3 page 144 states "their cleric's abilities stack with their own natural ability to rebuke undead."
edit again - What about gaining arms and using a large number of shields? Or maybe Sacred Animated Bucklers?
I believe that only 1 shield's enchantments count by the same twisted reasoning as having a 2nd shield give no more AC or protection....
Effective turning level is not boosted by a high turning check. You're just guaranteed to be able to affect undead that strong. That's -4.
Um no: "Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded." "If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn." "roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn." "Turning Check Result": "22 or higher" - "Cleric’s level +4"
I'm fairly certain that multiple Sacred pieces is a "same source" situation, similar to not allowing two of those metal replacement arms that I can't remember the names of to stack. That's another -6.
That's why I put them on different types of armors that can all be warn at the same time.
See through the Veil can only be taken once. That's another -6.
Emmy already caught that and actually if it can't be fixed its -12. I was only off by two words. And in my defense there was no reason to nerf the PA abilities so that even the ones that could be taken a few times can't be taken in a row - but without those 2 words the every other nerf would make sense.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with "spell-stitched familiar", but I'll assume you mean Stitched-Flesh Familiar from Libris Mortis, in which case, again, that does not add to your turning level. It just allows you to control another 4 HD of undead. That's another -4.
Slip of the fingers. I see the point on the usefulness, but its a fine line depending on how you interpret 'control' (when u rebuke undead to control them won't a bonus to HD help? I guess I mentally mixed up commandable and controllable when reading since they have almost exactly the same definition in English) ... RAW it appears you are right. This one is about as strange as the Paragnostic Apostle nerfing.
-20 with an initial scan.
Looks like we are both off :p
Almost certainly. Spell-Stitching your Stitched Flesh Familiar isn't a bad idea, though.
Again... small typo. Is it really that amusing?
It might also be worth separating the negative turn resistance items from the turning level boosting items. They do different things, after all.
I thought about this, but settled on my arrangement because it does virtually the same thing. But I might move it to the command-different area.
PS: PlzBreak, I thought you thought that multiple rebuking sources would create separate pools, rather than stacking to determine level? :P
... You never listened did you?
Show me where I have 2 classes in this thread that grant rebuke!Corrected build:
Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Doomdreamer 1/Ordained Champion 3/Bone Knight 10
No that won't work but my non-legacy champion build will still work.
[calculations]
I'll adjust for my 2 misreadings, don't worry about it.
Take another look at the doomguide PrC, Crowley. What is says is, "for the purposes of turning or destroying undead," so it won't help the rebuking and commanding. I realize that the neutral term for either rebuking or turning is simply 'turning' but it goes on to specify that this helps the damage to undead too. The omission about also helping the command roll is simply too suspicious.
Ah didn't have the book in front of me but you're right. I have to stop drunk posting
I dislike pointing extensively on my own threads but ...
Um no: "Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded." "If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have Hit Dice, you destroy any that you would normally turn." "roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn." "Turning Check Result": "22 or higher" - "Cleric’s level +4"
All that means is that you can affect an undead with four HD more than your Cleric level. For example, if you have an ETL of 20, you can turn an undead of 24 HD. However, even with Doomdreamer's absurdly awesome ability, you cannot control that undead, because it does NOT have 20 or less HD.
That's why I put them on different types of armors that can all be warn at the same time.
It's still a typeless bonus from the same source, the same source being the Sacred ability. The fact that it's on four different types of armor is absolutely irrelevant.
Emmy already caught that and actually if it can't be fixed its -12. I was only off by two words. And in my defense there was no reason to nerf the PA abilities so that even the ones that could be taken a few times can't be taken in a row - but without those 2 words the every other nerf would make sense.
Yep, that's my bad. I thought it said you took it four times, not seven.
Slip of the fingers. I'm not the only one who makes small mistakes, you know.
You're not on trial, here. I'm just clipping away at the small mistakes so that this can be a useful resource. Everyone makes mistakes when they make something like this. No reason to get defensive.
I see the point on the usefulness, but its a fine line depending on how you interpret 'control' (when u rebuke undead to control them won't a bonus to HD help? I guess I mentally mixed up commandable and controllable when reading since they have almost exactly the same definition in English) ... RAW it appears you are right. This one is about as strange as the Paragnostic Apostle nerfing.
The rules are very clear on this. It just adds four HD to your total amount of HD you can control. It doesn't allow you to control stronger undead. But think of the bright side, now you can drop all those feats you used to get this.
Looks like we are both off :p
Sure, if this needs to be a competition, or something. I'm just trying to help shape this into a usable resource.
All that means is that you can affect an undead with four HD more than your Cleric level. For example, if you have an ETL of 20, you can turn an undead of 24 HD. However, even with Doomdreamer's absurdly awesome ability, you cannot control that undead, because it does NOT have 20 or less HD.
Okay so in that case you can only make the 4 extra HD's worth of undead cower but not be commanded. Bummer... There really was a simpler way to say that in the text
. Sigh, I'll update the turn check amount then.It's still a typeless bonus from the same source, the same source being the Sacred ability. The fact that it's on four different types of armor is absolutely irrelevant.
Hmm I guess that depends on what you consider a 'source'. What does everyone else think?
The rules are very clear on this. It just adds four HD to your total amount of HD you can control. It doesn't allow you to control stronger undead. But think of the bright side, now you can drop all those feats you used to get this.
Yeah I understood that you were right, I was just saying the text said it badly. But it helps one of the 2 goals so the feat sink still stands.
I seem to remember another (not doomguide) LN type PrC that helped rebuking... Does anyone know of it? Also some other people to take a crack answering the "what I could use help with" section would be great.