Medium mounted charger? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Medium mounted charger?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
THELAWL
Oct 17, 2012 18:18:23 im trying to develop a mounted character who does alot of charge damage without the restrictions of a large size that centaurs have(hard to move in tight spots). are there any guides already out there?

one thing that came up in my own research is, can you use leap attack if your mounted? does your mount leap for you?

my character can only be ecl 8. any links or tips will be appreciated!
#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Oct 17, 2012 19:33:07
im trying to develop a mounted character who does alot of charge damage without the restrictions of a large size that centaurs have(hard to move in tight spots). are there any guides already out there?

one thing that came up in my own research is, can you use leap attack if your mounted? does your mount leap for you?

my character can only be ecl 8. any links or tips will be appreciated!

You will be able to outperform anything mounted by remaining on foot.

The reason? Everything mounted requires at least Mounted Combat (one feat down), and the biggest advantages to being mounted take two extra feats on top of that (Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge). Those three feats get you one extra "double damage" effect.

There are other "double damage" effects out there that cost a lot less than three feats to get - and you can fit in more of them without wasting space on Spirited Charge.

The usual "ubercharge" suite is Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior), combined with some method of getting Pounce. Any other multipliers on top of that (Valorous weapons are the cheapest, followed by, I think, the Headlong Rush feat if you're an orc) are just gravy.

I'm on a tight timeline now so I can't continue, but search the site: I post this a lot and do sample calculations, typically at level 6.
#3
draco1119
Oct 17, 2012 19:56:01
im trying to develop a mounted character who does alot of charge damage without the restrictions of a large size that centaurs have(hard to move in tight spots). are there any guides already out there?

one thing that came up in my own research is, can you use leap attack if your mounted? does your mount leap for you?

my character can only be ecl 8. any links or tips will be appreciated!

If you're hellbent on doing this, take a look at the Halfling Druid racial ACFs in Races of the Wild; I believe they can use their animal companions as mounts.
#4
StevenO
Oct 17, 2012 22:14:41 Halflings or Goblins can be mounted on medium sized creatures which can may them useful in a dungeon envirnoment. You may still have the feat issues that Tempest mentions but the mounted halfling can go just about anywhere a human could go.

#5
THELAWL
Oct 18, 2012 13:51:39 i was just making my character (wild dwarf 1barb/7 fighter) and im starting to apply the bonuses i get on a charge. how exactly do i add in leap attak for a two handed weapon?

lets say i have 18 str and im level 4
normally = greatsword (2d6) + 6 (1 1/2 str)
power attack = greatsword (2d6) + 6(1 1/2 str) + 8 (4 bab)
leap attack =   greatsword (2d6) + 6(1 1/2 str) + 8 (4 bab) + 12 (4 bab X 3 for leap?)

is this right? also is the triple damage from lance applied after all the damage is calculated?

#6
StevenO
Oct 18, 2012 18:07:09 I believe that when you use Leap attack you're modifying how the penalty translates into damage. That's to say that instead of the 1:1 or 2:1 (damage:attack penalty) you normally take the ratios are now 2:1 and 3:1.
#7
Tempest_Stormwind
Oct 18, 2012 18:40:30
i was just making my character (wild dwarf 1barb/7 fighter) and im starting to apply the bonuses i get on a charge. how exactly do i add in leap attak for a two handed weapon?

lets say i have 18 str and im level 4
normally = greatsword (2d6) + 6 (1 1/2 str)
power attack = greatsword (2d6) + 6(1 1/2 str) + 8 (4 bab)
leap attack =   greatsword (2d6) + 6(1 1/2 str) + 8 (4 bab) + 12 (4 bab X 3 for leap?)

is this right? also is the triple damage from lance applied after all the damage is calculated?

You mean, setting aside that this is an illegal character? (Leap Attack requires +6 Base Attack to take, and you have +4.)

Leap Attack is not a "triple damage" thing. Check the errata - it works the same way that errata'd Greater / Supreme Power Attack work. That is, it adds a percentage of your normal Power Attack bonus damage to your damage. For Leap Attack, it's +100%.

This means if you Leap Attack with a light weapon, and Power Attack for -5, you get no bonus damage (+0 from PA, +100% of 0 for a total of +0).
This means if you Leap Attack with a one-handedvweapon, and Power Attack for -5, you get +10 bonus damage (+5 from PA, +100% of 5 for a total of +10).
This means if you Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon, and Power Attack for -5, you get +20 bonus damage (+10 from PA, +100% of 10 for a total of +20).

You'll note this is the same result as the original Leap Attack feat but without mucking around with D&D multipliers.

Further multipliers, such as Valorous weapons (a few thousand GP in cost), a lance while mounted (only works while mounted with a specific weapon) or Spirited Charge (three feats in cost on top of the limits from mounted charging - see why I disparage mounted chargers?) therefore work with it exactly as if it were just a bigger conversion on Power Attack. (This is why Steven described it as such, even though it isn't 100% accurate to say it like that - compare how the errata Leap Attack reads as opposed to the CW tactical feat Combat Brute. If they both changed the PA return rate, they couldn't work together, but now that one changes the return rate and the other amplifies the return itself, they work together).

A quick example of why this approach doesn't work out all that well, now that I have a level to work with (i.e. level 6, the lowest level Leap Attack can be used):
ANY RACE Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4
Strength 15, +1 at 4th (This is typical for any Strength-based character of any race without a Strength penalty.)
1: Power Attack
3: Improved Bull Rush, Extra Rage
4: Weapon Focus
6: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper
Equipment: +1 greataxe (simplifies the critical hit math; you get slightly better results with the greatsword but I'm being lazy).
NOTE: I'm doing the calculations here without rage, although you can clearly expect to rage in most combats and get good results. I'm just doing this to show it isn't necessary. (The WF and Extra Rage feats can be exchanged for other feats if you need them; a degenerate example is using Human to get Cleave, Destructive Rage, and Intimidating Rage, thus qualifiying for Frenzied Berserker.)
NOTE2: If you have Complete Champion available, you'd be a fool to not take the Lion Totem ability, which would give this character Pounce. (And thus, the ability to attack multiple times on a charge - extra attacks can be thought of as extra multipliers, as each hit benefits from PA.)

Greataxe attack bonus: 6+3+1+1 = +11.
Greataxe base damage: 1d12+5+1 = 12.5.
Power Attack for -6 adds +12 base damage, +100% of 12 from Leap Attack, for a total of +24.
--If you charge and trigger Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge, your total attack bonus is +13 even with this penalty.
--Normal damage is therefore 36.5.
--Critical hit damage is x3 (all of the above multiply normally) for 109.5.
Average monster AC at CR 6: 18.88 (call it 19).
Chance to hit AC 19 with +13: roll a 6 or better, or 75%.
--Chance of a critical hit: 75%*5% for a confirmed crit, or 3.75%.
--Chance of a normal-damage hit: 75% - 3.75% = 71.25%.
Expected damage on a charge is therefore 71.25% of 36.5 plus 3.75% of 109.5, or 30.1125.
Average monster HP at CR 6: 69.12, therefore this charge deals about 44% of the average monster's HP in a single hit.

(Adding Pounce bumps this up quite a bit, as I recall to over 60%.)

And you have three or more other party members swinging at it too, in their own ways. Even if all of them switch to HP alone, you will take this monster down in two rounds, meaning it gets one attack against your entire team.
And by level 7 or 8, you can afford a Valorous weapon, adding your base damage again to this result.

See why I say you won't need the mount?
#8
Asteron
Oct 18, 2012 20:19:44 What book is Valorous in?
#9
draco1119
Oct 18, 2012 20:57:07 Oriental Adventures

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 THELAWL Oct 17, 2012 18:18:23	im trying to develop a mounted character who does alot of charge damage without the restrictions of a large size that centaurs have(hard to move in tight spots). are there any guides already out there? one thing that came up in my own research is, can you use leap attack if your mounted? does your mount leap for you? my character can only be ecl 8. any links or tips will be appreciated!
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 17, 2012 19:33:07	im trying to develop a mounted character who does alot of charge damage without the restrictions of a large size that centaurs have(hard to move in tight spots). are there any guides already out there? one thing that came up in my own research is, can you use leap attack if your mounted? does your mount leap for you? my character can only be ecl 8. any links or tips will be appreciated! You will be able to outperform anything mounted by remaining on foot. The reason? Everything mounted requires at least Mounted Combat (one feat down), and the biggest advantages to being mounted take two extra feats on top of that (Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge). Those three feats get you one extra "double damage" effect. There are other "double damage" effects out there that cost a lot less than three feats to get - and you can fit in more of them without wasting space on Spirited Charge. The usual "ubercharge" suite is Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior), combined with some method of getting Pounce. Any other multipliers on top of that (Valorous weapons are the cheapest, followed by, I think, the Headlong Rush feat if you're an orc) are just gravy. I'm on a tight timeline now so I can't continue, but search the site: I post this a lot and do sample calculations, typically at level 6.
#3 draco1119 Oct 17, 2012 19:56:01	im trying to develop a mounted character who does alot of charge damage without the restrictions of a large size that centaurs have(hard to move in tight spots). are there any guides already out there? one thing that came up in my own research is, can you use leap attack if your mounted? does your mount leap for you? my character can only be ecl 8. any links or tips will be appreciated! If you're hellbent on doing this, take a look at the Halfling Druid racial ACFs in Races of the Wild; I believe they can use their animal companions as mounts.
#4 StevenO Oct 17, 2012 22:14:41	Halflings or Goblins can be mounted on medium sized creatures which can may them useful in a dungeon envirnoment. You may still have the feat issues that Tempest mentions but the mounted halfling can go just about anywhere a human could go.
#5 THELAWL Oct 18, 2012 13:51:39	i was just making my character (wild dwarf 1barb/7 fighter) and im starting to apply the bonuses i get on a charge. how exactly do i add in leap attak for a two handed weapon? lets say i have 18 str and im level 4 normally = greatsword (2d6) + 6 (1 1/2 str) power attack = greatsword (2d6) + 6(1 1/2 str) + 8 (4 bab) leap attack = greatsword (2d6) + 6(1 1/2 str) + 8 (4 bab) + 12 (4 bab X 3 for leap?) is this right? also is the triple damage from lance applied after all the damage is calculated?
#6 StevenO Oct 18, 2012 18:07:09	I believe that when you use Leap attack you're modifying how the penalty translates into damage. That's to say that instead of the 1:1 or 2:1 (damage:attack penalty) you normally take the ratios are now 2:1 and 3:1.
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 18, 2012 18:40:30	i was just making my character (wild dwarf 1barb/7 fighter) and im starting to apply the bonuses i get on a charge. how exactly do i add in leap attak for a two handed weapon? lets say i have 18 str and im level 4 normally = greatsword (2d6) + 6 (1 1/2 str) power attack = greatsword (2d6) + 6(1 1/2 str) + 8 (4 bab) leap attack = greatsword (2d6) + 6(1 1/2 str) + 8 (4 bab) + 12 (4 bab X 3 for leap?) is this right? also is the triple damage from lance applied after all the damage is calculated? You mean, setting aside that this is an illegal character? (Leap Attack requires +6 Base Attack to take, and you have +4.) Leap Attack is not a "triple damage" thing. Check the errata - it works the same way that errata'd Greater / Supreme Power Attack work. That is, it adds a percentage of your normal Power Attack bonus damage to your damage. For Leap Attack, it's +100%. This means if you Leap Attack with a light weapon, and Power Attack for -5, you get no bonus damage (+0 from PA, +100% of 0 for a total of +0). This means if you Leap Attack with a one-handedvweapon, and Power Attack for -5, you get +10 bonus damage (+5 from PA, +100% of 5 for a total of +10). This means if you Leap Attack with a two-handed weapon, and Power Attack for -5, you get +20 bonus damage (+10 from PA, +100% of 10 for a total of +20). You'll note this is the same result as the original Leap Attack feat but without mucking around with D&D multipliers. Further multipliers, such as Valorous weapons (a few thousand GP in cost), a lance while mounted (only works while mounted with a specific weapon) or Spirited Charge (three feats in cost on top of the limits from mounted charging - see why I disparage mounted chargers?) therefore work with it exactly as if it were just a bigger conversion on Power Attack. (This is why Steven described it as such, even though it isn't 100% accurate to say it like that - compare how the errata Leap Attack reads as opposed to the CW tactical feat Combat Brute. If they both changed the PA return rate, they couldn't work together, but now that one changes the return rate and the other amplifies the return itself, they work together). A quick example of why this approach doesn't work out all that well, now that I have a level to work with (i.e. level 6, the lowest level Leap Attack can be used): ANY RACE Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 Strength 15, +1 at 4th (This is typical for any Strength-based character of any race without a Strength penalty.) 1: Power Attack 3: Improved Bull Rush, Extra Rage 4: Weapon Focus 6: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper Equipment: +1 greataxe (simplifies the critical hit math; you get slightly better results with the greatsword but I'm being lazy). NOTE: I'm doing the calculations here without rage, although you can clearly expect to rage in most combats and get good results. I'm just doing this to show it isn't necessary. (The WF and Extra Rage feats can be exchanged for other feats if you need them; a degenerate example is using Human to get Cleave, Destructive Rage, and Intimidating Rage, thus qualifiying for Frenzied Berserker.) NOTE2: If you have Complete Champion available, you'd be a fool to not take the Lion Totem ability, which would give this character Pounce. (And thus, the ability to attack multiple times on a charge - extra attacks can be thought of as extra multipliers, as each hit benefits from PA.) Greataxe attack bonus: 6+3+1+1 = +11. Greataxe base damage: 1d12+5+1 = 12.5. Power Attack for -6 adds +12 base damage, +100% of 12 from Leap Attack, for a total of +24. --If you charge and trigger Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge, your total attack bonus is +13 even with this penalty. --Normal damage is therefore 36.5. --Critical hit damage is x3 (all of the above multiply normally) for 109.5. Average monster AC at CR 6: 18.88 (call it 19). Chance to hit AC 19 with +13: roll a 6 or better, or 75%. --Chance of a critical hit: 75%5% for a confirmed crit, or 3.75%. --Chance of a normal-damage hit: 75% - 3.75% = 71.25%. Expected damage on a charge is therefore 71.25% of 36.5 plus 3.75% of 109.5, or 30.1125. Average monster HP at CR 6: 69.12, therefore this charge deals about 44% of the average monster's HP in a single hit. (Adding Pounce bumps this up quite a bit, as I recall to over 60%.) And you have three or more other party members swinging at it too, in their own ways. Even if all of them switch to HP alone, you will take this monster down in two rounds, meaning it gets one attack against your entire team. And by level 7 or 8, you can afford a Valorous weapon, adding your base damage again* to this result. See why I say you won't need the mount?
#8 Asteron Oct 18, 2012 20:19:44	What book is Valorous in?
#9 draco1119 Oct 18, 2012 20:57:07	Oriental Adventures