Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 suzerain Aug 09, 2008 0:03:07	Hello folks! So far I have only played casters, but I came here to you because I think I have a very special situation to cater to. We have a 4-member party at level 7; one Cleric 7, one Wizard 6/Spellfire Channeler 1, one planning for AA (Fighter 6/Wizard 1). I am supposed to cover the melee build. The situation is special because: It's a 3.0 game without psionics (3.5 splatbooks allowed though), which means for core stuff I'm limited to 3.0 versions of classes/feats DM has allowed +1 LA races, ignoring LA. So the whole party runs around with +1 LA races The Arcane Archer guy plays a male Drow (ignoring +2 LA) The party wizard has spellfire and plays custom race based on Avariel (can't fly, but landspeed 50ft) (ignoring LAs) The Cleric (has Divine Metamagic) is my buff-buddy, the Wizard only buffs me with spells he could use on himself (not likely to learn anything like keen edge or bear's strength, but I get haste regularly). The Wizard has crazy Dex (22+ with items) and Con 17 (relevant for spellfire). Truth of the matter is, I don't really know if I can keep up with a party like that. Even more so since I think I didn't do a great job with class/feat selection (looking at this board, most seem to think Fighter is nothing but a good "dip", and the Fighter handbook doesn't reveal anything good about Two-Weapon Fighting). I was really lucky at rolling my abilities, though, so this should compensate a lot. Recognizing this, and that in 3.0 TWF requires 2 feats instead of one, the DM gave me "Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting" for free (limited to Bastard Swords though). Now the DM allows me retraining of my feats and skills and reassignment of my ability scores, so that's why I'm asking. The current character looks like this: Show Fighter 6/Barbarian 1 Race: Earth-Genasi (Favored Class: Fighter) Land speed 30ft in Medium Armor (including +10ft fast movement) AC 25 (10 Base + 9 Armor + 3 Shield + 2 Dex + 1 Natural) Abilities: Str 20 (17 Base, +2 Race, +1 Increase) Dex 15 Con 20 (18 Base, +2 Race) Int 15 Wis 10 (12 Base, -2 Race) Cha 10 (12 Base, -2 Race) Level progression: Fighter 1 - Ambidexterity [3.0 feat], Two Weapon Fighting [3.0 feat] Fighter 2 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), [Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting] Fighter 3 - Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization (Bastard sword) Fighter 5 Fighter 6 - Combat Expertise, Improved Critical (Bastard Sword) Barbarian 7 - Rage 1/day, fast movement Equipment: Animated Heavy Mithril Shield +1 Mithril Full Plate Armor +1 Composite Longbow (4 str mod) Bastard Sword +1 (main hand) Bastard Sword [masterwork] (off-hand) Amulet of Natural Armor +1 Attacks: Melee Attack Bonus: +12/+7 (+7/+2 BAB + 5 Str) Ranged Attack Bonus: +9/+4 (+7/+2 BAB + 2 Dex) Melee Full Attack: +12/+7/+12 (-2 TWF, +1 Enh, +1 WF) at 1d10+8/1d10+8/1d10+4 damage with 17-20/x2 threats
#2 davethemagicweasel Aug 09, 2008 6:40:58	I'd ditch the TWF and reinvent yourself as a gish tbh. If nothing else use Lion Totem Barbarian in Complete Champion to get pounce.
#3 eldariel Aug 09, 2008 7:10:09	For the love of God, ditch TWF, ditch Fighter, play Druid! They're even more powerful in 3.0 than in 3.5 (combined Animal Growths to you and your companion, gaining animal HP when Wild Shaping, etc.), and they're plenty strong in 3.5. If you really have to rebuild yourself as a Fighter, please do ditch TWF - TWF requires you to have extra damage output to make up for the lack of Power Attack, which you quite simply do not have. You could, with sufficient investments, make yourself a decent TWF damage dealer, but that's all you'd be good for even then, and it would likely require further multiclassing for damage bonuses.
#4 suzerain Aug 09, 2008 13:35:55	TWF requires you to have extra damage output to make up for the lack of Power Attack, which you quite simply do not have With extra damage I assume you mean something akin to sneak attack or elemental weapons? Power Attack requires shaving off bits off my BAB to add to the damage. I do not really feel comfortable with this. Can you point me towards any discussions/calculations so I can verify? That would be greatly appreciated. For the love of God, ditch TWF, ditch Fighter, play Druid! They're even more powerful in 3.0 than in 3.5 (combined Animal Growths to you and your companion, gaining animal HP when Wild Shaping, etc.), and they're plenty strong in 3.5. The version of Polymorph in my 3.0 PHB explicitly states you retain your own HP (even though constitution might change). What you mean with combined animal growths I don't know. All in all, though, the Druid class depicted in the book right next to me is vague at best. The text about animal companions says virtually nothing about them except that they have 2 HD at 1st level. No table or chart, nothing. He also doesn't get to change into a plant. There also is not one mention of the "summon nature's ally" spell in the entire class description. Druids are probably still extremely strong (natural spell alone should do that), but I wouldn't say they're stronger in 3.0 from what I see. I wouldn't say that for any class really. All got improved or left alone 3.0 -> 3.5. Maybe some underlying game mechanics changed that made a change for the classes, but from the class descriptions, you can't guess anything like that. I'll consider playing a Druid. Or let's say I'll be checking in with my DM and will be trying different builds in the meantime. Those nifty caster builds are just so much more interesting, would you believe that :P @DaveTheMagicWeasel: Good one! If this stays a melee-build I'll certainly try to get this. So I take it nobody likes melee-only builds? Hrm. I'll look into some spellcasting classes to see if I can get a melee buffer (mainly buffing myself :P) or into stealthy classes to net some sneak attack damage. I still think a "fighter" has appeal.. though I guess no power :P Thanks for your responses!
#5 reis Aug 09, 2008 20:00:39	can you use tome of battle: the book of nine swords?
#6 bruceleeroy Aug 10, 2008 2:43:00	Fighter has tons of a appeal for a melee build... ...as a two level dip at some point.
#7 suzerain Aug 10, 2008 10:21:29	can you use tome of battle: the book of nine swords? No, I can't (you mean for war blade, right?) Fighter has tons of a appeal for a melee build... ...as a two level dip at some point. Then what classes would I take the other 18 levels? ;) As I said, Barbarian is nerfed. That leaves weird asian-style base classes, that's all, no?
#8 eldariel Aug 10, 2008 13:40:42	Druids can have any number of Animal Companions, as long as their total HD doesn't exceed his CL (or twice his CL for ones taken on the spot; only up to HD will follow him). This is extremely potent with mass buff spells like Animal Growth, Greater Magic Fang, Haste (from the Wizard), etc. Also, the animals are completely expendable so all you need to do is to memorize Animal Friendship a few times and even if your pets do die, you'll have new ones. Basically, 3.0 Wild Shape is straight Polymorph - 3.5 is a bit more limited (the whole annoying "Druid is familiar with"-line is gone).
#9 Senevri Aug 11, 2008 15:05:22	Ahh, 3.0: Where you don't get 2x sacked BAB to damage with Power Attack. Anyway, TWF in 3.0, unless you're a ranger, is hardly worth it, as you need two feats to start with, which still sacrifices 2-4 points of BAB for some extra damage. That is 2-4 points which could have been used with Power Attack instead. Well, Charging tricks are valid in 3.0, and Cavalier was in Sword & Fist... that's one way of upping melee damage. Yeah, Druid is handy - medium BAB, dip to Ranger for TWF, and go to town with two flame blades if turning into animals is a, er, a turn-off. As for Power attack... well, basically, the monsters are designed so that a well-hitting medium-BAB character hits most of the time... so you can turn all the excess into extra damage. Which is multiplied by critical hits... Oh! Oh! 3.0? Critical Hit Stacking! Improved Crit on a 18-20 weapon + Keen = 12-20 critical.
#10 suzerain Aug 12, 2008 18:55:22	Ahh, 3.0: Where you don't get 2x sacked BAB to damage with Power Attack. [...] well, basically, the monsters are designed so that a well-hitting medium-BAB character hits most of the time... so you can turn all the excess into extra damage. Power Attack does indeed not give 2x BAB to damage. As for hitting monsters, I'll have to think about that. The way it has been was that when I didn't hit an enemy with my first attack (usually because I screwed up, rolling 3s and 4s), the party usually would suffer.. anyway, I'll see. Well, Charging tricks are valid in 3.0, and Cavalier was in Sword & Fist... that's one way of upping melee damage. You're not suggesting I ride on a mount, do you? Wasted feats and skill points on riding etc. and that in a campaign that plays in dungeons 1,8m tall at most? I think not. If by "trick" you mean using the ability without a mount, it's formulated in a way that does require a mount in my edition of Sword&Fist. 3.0? Critical Hit Stacking! Improved Crit on a 18-20 weapon + Keen = 12-20 critical. I've recently come along the "elven courtblade" weapon from RotW. 1d10@18-20/x2. If I use small ones (1d8 dmg) I could wield two. Will be investigating using a different weapon, though they will not *ever* be available as loot (bastard swords, on the other hand, are. my swords were loot). That makes a big difference with higher enchantment boni (+18,000gp for +3, ...). I can make that 10-20 with 7 levels of weapon master. That would also give me max dmg with my choice weapon 7x/day and improved crit multiplier 3x/day (also greater WF). It does have pretty rigid feat requirements, though.. Druids can have any number of Animal Companions, as long as their total HD doesn't exceed his CL (or twice his CL for ones taken on the spot; only up to HD will follow him). This is extremely potent with mass buff spells like Animal Growth, Greater Magic Fang, Haste (from the Wizard), etc. Of those 3 spells, only animal growth affects multiple creatures. But it's an idea worthy of persuing. Also, the animals are completely expendable so all you need to do is to memorize Animal Friendship a few times and even if your pets do die, you'll have new ones. Basically, 3.0 Wild Shape is straight Polymorph - 3.5 is a bit more limited (the whole annoying "Druid is familiar with"-line is gone). Polymorph is powerful. That much I get. The 3.0 version is tricky to use, though, because it doesn't have a HD limit. It doesn't mention that in the whole text. So it would be entirely up to the DM into what creatures I could turn; he may just use CR as criterion (as long as they're of appropriate size). The Tome&Blood version does use your HD as cap for the spell, but limits the type so I can't change into Undead for example.. It's messy business, really.
#11 Senevri Aug 13, 2008 14:42:09	You're not suggesting I ride on a mount, do you? Wasted feats and skill points on riding etc. and that in a campaign that plays in dungeons 1,8m tall at most? I think not. If by "trick" you mean using the ability without a mount, it's formulated in a way that does require a mount in my edition of Sword&Fist. Well, okay. Only if you're a halfling. Think Riding Dogs or ponies. Can go anywhere a Medium character can. Plus, I seem to recall Halfling Outrider or somesuch class.
#12 woodenbandman Aug 14, 2008 9:37:13	Convince your Dm to let you use the Talenta sharresh, an exotic weapon with a 19-20/x4, doing 1d10 damage. Then just go to town and convince the wizard to learn just a few spells, namely keen edge and enlarge person. You'll never need another buff again. You will critical on a 14 and deal x4 damage, which should account for at a bare minimum of 40 damage per hit assuming 22 strength, with your maximum being 76 AT EACH CRITICAL. Did I mention that you should enchant said weapon with all kinds of ________ Burst things, giving you an extra anywhere between 3 and 12 d10s per hit. It's in the Eberron campaign setting, but try hard to get your DM to let you have one. It also has reach and trips.
#13 suzerain Aug 14, 2008 12:23:31	@woodenbandman: Eberron is off-limits. We don't even *have* any Eberron books so he can't even take a look at that stuff. Anyway... thanks folks for all your suggestions... however when I told my GM I wanted to play a druid... he told me to go f* myself (literally). Now he's being mean and only lets me change the Barb lvl (not even feats), knowing full well that another level of fighter gets me... exactly nothing. I think I'm taking a level in wizard instead and go for a Gish. I'll try to sneak in abjurant champion afterwards (although the 1st-level ability gives me nothing)... but if he grasps how broken it is, I guess twin beholders will play a central part in the next adventure.. But really, I'm stuck with TWF (or at the least with bastard swords). I mean I could just drop the off-hand weapon, but frankly I think an additional attack can't hurt so much... I will be taking Exotic weapon master (at some point) to lower the penalty to -1... or I'll ask the DM if I can take the 3.5 version of power attack... I am now investigating gish options... especially how to circumvent arcane spell failure... (3.0 Shield is great though. +7 cover bonus :P ).
#14 bahamut920 Aug 16, 2008 0:32:15	I can completely sympathize with your DM... If a player ever came to me with a rebuild that completely flushed his original character idea down the toilet, I'd shoot him down, too. Tempest from Complete Adventurer allows you to completely eliminate the TWF penalty over a few levels. It might be in a 3.0 splatbook; I know many of the Complete PrCs were translated/updated from 3.0 material, but I'm not particularly familiar with any of the books. As for starting a gish, I wouldn't do it. You really need to do that from the beginning for it to be really effective. That said, picking up a wizard level and preparing all true strikes (no somatic component, so no spell failure) might allow you to deal some real damage... Especially if you retrain one of your feats to Power Attack. Pick up a Quicken Spell metamagic rod and you can cast that true strike quickened three times per day. I think you only need a lesser rod, because I think that it works by spell level. Best off, you only need an Int of 11 for this, though a 12 helps for the bonus spell. Even better, a single level of sorcerer gets you more castings of it, and since it's pretty much all you'll be casting, you don't have to worry about the sorc's limited spells known. If you really feel like a gish, spellsword reduces spell failure, and if you can convince your DM to let you have the Complete Mage fighter variant, you can ditch medium and heavy armor for Armored Mage (light). If this is the case, though, you almost definitely want wizard, though, because you'll want to be able to prepare specific buffs. You may not even want to ditch the barbarian level. As mentioned before, Complete Champion has the Lion Totem variant, which gets Pounce. Pounce on a TWF is some good. See if your DM will allow the Player's Handbook II feats. Some good TWF feats are in there, including Two-Weapon Rend, Two-Weapon Pounce, and the continuation of the Weapon Focus/Specialization tree, though you'll have to keep your fighter levels for those.
#15 suzerain Aug 16, 2008 2:07:37	I can completely sympathize with your DM... If a player ever came to me with a rebuild that completely flushed his original character idea down the toilet, I'd shoot him down, too. Duly noted. It was a stupid idea in the first place. Tempest loses his abilities when in medium or heavy armor (mithral full plate is medium armor). As for starting a gish, I wouldn't do it. You really need to do that from the beginning for it to be really effective. That said, picking up a wizard level and preparing all true strikes (no somatic component, so no spell failure) might allow you to deal some real damage... Especially if you retrain one of your feats to Power Attack. Pick up a Quicken Spell metamagic rod and you can cast that true strike quickened three times per day. I think you only need a lesser rod, because I think that it works by spell level. Best off, you only need an Int of 11 for this, though a 12 helps for the bonus spell. Even better, a single level of sorcerer gets you more castings of it, and since it's pretty much all you'll be casting, you don't have to worry about the sorc's limited spells known. Brilliant! I think I will do just that. I was thinking Wizard because I already have impressive Int (And with "gish" I really only meant mixing in spellcasting). If I can reassign Int to Cha, a Sorcerer would be very wortwhile I think because I only need a limited number of buff spells (true strike and shield being chief as I can get most other stuff through items). The problem with Spellblade is that the 3.0 variant is (imho) significantly nerfed. It can channel 2nd-lvl spells at 4th class level and 3rd-lvl spells at 10th class level. Channeling only works on targeted spells. Plus it is limited to 1/day even at class level 10. Oh, and it has medium BAB. So I'd have to convince my DM that the 3.5 variant really is more balanced than the 3.0 variant.. The fighter variant from CM will most probably not be allowed. Plus I'd want to keep my full plate armor... Now that I know this will stay a fighter 6 build, though, I'll try to get Pounce. Thanks bahamut920 for the truly great input! Edit: Looking at the spell description, I don't think true strike has much synergy with TWF, Pounce or even "Full Attack". True, with Power Attack I could make +5 guaranteed damage with the first attack (which is almost certain to hit). All following attacks suffer from the -5 on attack rolls, though and thus imho unlikely to hit. Quickened spells should work in that case, but casting quickened true strike 3 times for one full attack isn't really worth it...
#16 eldariel Aug 16, 2008 10:35:22	If you're stuck with your present character, you could make a pretty decent Dervish. If you could pick up a level of Ranger on 1 (trashing the Barbarian-level and moving all the Fighters up) and trade the original Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting for Dodge and Mobility (Dervish prerequisites - poor feats and same flavour so I don't imagine it would be a problem), you'd qualify and since you're Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting anyways, you could get decent Power Attack going on. Then just take Melee Weapon Mastery [PHBII], the whole Two-Weapon Fighting tree and profit. It won't be as good as a Druid (not even in the same ballpark), but it sure as hell would beat the living daylights out of your present character. Invest in an item that gets you permanent Air Walk/Fly (I prefer Celestial Armor with permanent enhancement of Fly) and you should be fine. The Barbarian-dip would be ok, especially with Extra Rage (I'd take Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana - it should be usable with Dervish Dance). Now you just need to come up with ways to increase your Dex enough to get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Ask your DM if you can qualify for them through items - if not, ask if you could move your level 4 bonus to Dex. This would let you pick Improved Two-Weapon Fighting on 9 with the level 8 bonus too; the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting you could probably gain with a book too. That should be easy for your DM to accept and way better than your present character. Although I'd also try to retrain the Improved Critical - in fact I'd want to go Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Dervish 2 on level 7. Also, if you could drop some Cha for some Dex (or trade Dex and Con slots for 20/18/17 physicals - that way you could pick up the extra point for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting later with a book/Wish or by placing your level 12 ability score increase in it - you already would qualify for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting), it would be awesome. With your books, I'd be aiming at Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Dervish 10/Tempest 5. It's better than nothing. and with Power Attack, all the attack bonus increases can be directly translated into damage (or AC, since you have Combat Expertise). Then you'd just need to focus on feats for damage: -Get Power Attack (duh) -Melee Weapon Mastery (it's PHBII, but ask your DM nicely for it) -Deadly Defense (Complete Scoundrel) -Flay Foe (Champions of Ruin - a Forgotten Realms-supplement) as you progress in levels. Since you're TWF Power Attacking, the lack of 2x PA returns doesn't impact you. Oh yeah, consider the Improved Trip-feat; you qualify and could be tripping a whole ton of opponents per round thanks to your mobility and Strength. Also note that you'd be a bit better skill monkey (a way to alleviate your boredom) and since you'd have 18 Dex anyways, you could easily afford using Light Armor. You could assign feats as follows: Ranger 1. Dodge, [Track] (and ability to wield two weapons as if you had Ambidexterity and TWF) Fighter 1. EWP: Bastard Sword, [Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting] Figther 2. Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword, Combat Expertise Fighter 3. Fighter 4. Mobility Dervish 1. Power Attack Dervish 2. -------- Dervish 3. Dervish 4. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Dervish 5. Dervish 6. Dervish 7. Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword Dervish 8. Dervish 9. Dervish 10. Melee Weapon Mastery Tempest 1. Tempest 2. Tempest 3. Whatever Tempest 4. Tempest 5. I just found out that 3.0 doesn't contain Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and that Improved Two-Weapon Fighting requires +9 BAB. I also found out that you're still running out of feats. Finally, I found out that 3.0 doesn't require stats for TWF-feats. At least that would allow you to assign 15 to Dex, 18 to Str and 17 to Con.
#17 bahamut920 Aug 16, 2008 11:50:27	Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is in the Epic Level Handbook in 3.0, though not as an epic feat (they have some normal feats in there, mostly those that are prerequisites for the epic feats). I think it might have been reprinted there from Sword and Fist, as well. If you're planning to go with the gish idea, just make sure you carefully pick your spells, so that they have no somatic components. In one 3.0 campaign I played in, the group's fighter picked up wizard in later levels, and he was pretty effective with only verbal and material spells. However, he was wielding a two-handed weapon (the hammer of thunderbolts, by the end of the campaign), so the quickened true strike/Power Attack startegy worked better for him, I guess. Also, remeber that even a single wizard level gives you the ability to use wands or eternal wands (in the Magic Item Compendium) with sorcerer/wizard spells stored in them. Scrolls still require somatic components, but a wand does not. Good spells are alter self (the second-level one, which allows you to actually change shape), shield, wraithstrike (Spell Compendium; all of your attacks for the round are melee touch attacks - an eternal wand of this is horrible... in the good way), benign transposition (also Spell Compendium - it has no somatic components, so you might want to learn this one; switch places with one willing ally), etc. If you want, I could try to work together a build for your perusal. Are you actually re-creating the character, or just rebuilding/retraining a few levels/feats?
#18 eldariel Aug 16, 2008 12:09:30	Ok, so a level 15 feat. Kinda sucks - almost feels like playing 3.5 Samurai to get the second-hand iteratives so late. But at least it exists.
#19 bahamut920 Aug 16, 2008 14:44:09	Eldritch Knight
#20 suzerain Aug 20, 2008 15:28:26	I'm sorry to be so late to write this. I didn't expect much further interest in the thread. First of all, thanks for the effort spent on these builds. I can see some of these being awesome. @Eldariel: Not entirely sure about Dervish yet. Light armor should be fine, though, as Mithral Breastplate gives +5 armor bonus and Dervish 10 + Tempest 5 net me another +6 to AC. I'm losing out on shield bonuses that way, though. Not to mention I bought this costly animated shield for nothing :P And I'm not convinced of the power of the Dervish. Their powers are limited to 1/encounter. I can have permanent 3.0 haste and gain an extra partial action, which would allow me to move AND to make a full attack easily, each round. Sadly dervish dance doesn't even synergize with haste (explicitly excluded, though they obviously mean the 3.5 version; I guess this limitation wouldn't have applied had they designed for 3.0 haste). I can see +4 AC being useful when fighting defensively, Improved Initiative and fast movement, but they seem rather moderate benefits to me. Correct me if I'm wrong. "A thousand cuts" is superb, though. Basically 4 attacks at the highest BAB, 4 attacks at second highest etc. Very nice indeed. Err... ok, missed the AB bonus for dervish dance. Nice. If I want to go down that road, though, I'll have to barter with my DM, seriously. Could you outline how a typical encounter would happen? Don't I have to make an attack between each movement, and a movement between each attack? So I'd need two enemies to divide the attacks between, right? @bahamut920: I'm not familiar with the Eldritch Knight (I know it's in the 3.5 DMG). +9/10 CL and +10 BAB sounds nice, though. I'll talk plainly with my DM and see what options I get. As for now, I'm stuck with 6 levels of fighter and the majority of feats. Great build ideas. One thing that's worrying me since I read threads about AbjC is that neither shield nor mage armor woudl qualify in our game. If I take up the class, I'm going to ask my DM beforehand if he'll houserule that this will work. Apart from that, it'd still be a +5 BAB 5/5 spellcasting class, though.. The reason I couldn't ask him anything in the meantime is that he was not available for the last... week or so? He might be available tomorrow, maybe the day after that. I'll see if I can get to him.
#21 eldariel Aug 20, 2008 15:42:07	Here's how Dervish Dance works: -You move up to your speed and attack as many times as you can, up to your full attack. -You must move at least 5' between each attack. -You can't move back to a square from which you made your last move That's it - there's no limitation about attacking the same enemy many times, there's no limitation that you can't move without performing an attack and there's no limitation vs. doing a simple triangle in front of the opponent (you can't move A1-A2-A1-A2-etc. but you can move A1-A2-B1-A1-> etc. and you can tumble through your opponents (as per Tumble-skill: DC25 for half-speed) if there isn't room otherwise - you can take 10 in Tumble, so the DCs are no problem and you'll never fail). A Thousand Cuts is insane, but only once per day. If you play with Action Points, it gets much better as you can spend Action Points to recover it. It's awesome for clearing mook-hordes as you get Greater Cleave as a bonus along with a nutty number of attacks, so just wade into a mass Enlarged and clear some 100'/100' areas in one turn, killing a thousand mooks. And Elaborate Parry goes on top of the already existent "Defensive Fighting"-bonus. If you have 5 ranks in Tumble, you can take -4 to attacks to get +3 to AC. Oriental Adventures elaborates this to 15 ranks for +4 to AC with -4. Elaborate Parry makes this -4 for +8. And on top of that, you can use Combat Expertise for -5 to add +5. This means you're losing 9 points of attack bonus (you've got plenty) for +13 AC, making you basically untouchable vs. level appropriate encounters. Also, you could talk with your DM to allow you to use Animated Shield when Dervish Dancing, since the Shield isn't on your person - the Shield-limitation is obviously just about the shield getting in way of your dance and not being a slashing melee weapon. If it's Animated, there's no logical reason not to allow you to use it. As I've said before, Dervish is pretty much a combatant with really big numbers - you get high AC, high attack bonus, decent damage, full attack+move, speed and so on in exchange for basically all your feats. The feats would get you more damage, but less anything else, and thanks to the increased attack bonus from Dervish Dance, you can actually get more damage from Power Attack.
#22 suzerain Aug 20, 2008 16:12:16	Thanks for the clarifications. Dervish dance seems extremely fun to me ;) One thing, however: This means you're losing 9 points of attack bonus (you've got plenty) for +13 AC Isn't that true only from "Melee Weapon Mastery" onwards (outside of dance)? Or do you mean with full BAB, I can still shave off a few points (despite -2 on attack rolls through TWF)? Or am I missing something completely? ;) Anyway, thanks for the build, will investigate if DM will allow any of these changes. Does look extremely nice to play, though. To be able to use my animated shield would make this build really worthwhile (I'd ditch the full plate anytime then :P)
#23 eldariel Aug 20, 2008 16:45:43	Mostly the Dervish-bonus, although it's true that before MWM, you won't be having all that much extra. Still, you've got some, so the combined with the fact that the AC gain is larger than the attack penalty, you should be hitting way more than your opponents (especially since you have more attacks to begin with). This is how I beat a Divine Companion Swiftblade with +15s to saves and AC with a Dervish - I maxed my AC so neither of us hit beyond natural 20s, and overcame him with my extra attacks.
#24 suzerain Aug 21, 2008 18:27:06	Hello folks, I talked to my DM for some time (though not too long). He says unless the whole group's rebuilding their characters, I can't "undo" stuff done to my character. He holds to his promise of being able to remove that Barbarian level, though. He said should "fighter" turn out to suck big time later on, he might reconsider (so far I've done pretty well. I was only thinking that in higher levels, I wouldn't be able to keep up with the party). Now prepare yourselves mentally for the following houseruling I was made aware of during that talk. He thinks it's perfectly ok to "save up" skill points, feats, ability raises, even whole levels. In fact, the Wizard has been doing so for quite a while (didn't know that). I'm already thinking of abusing this to be lower-level and thus get more XP per encounter (experience might be a river). Though I don't know if he hands out XP per character level or per average group level (the party has leveled equally up to now). Anyways, an interesting side-track.. I had him have a look at Eldritch Knight, and I think he's going to buy it, so that's one good thing. I'll try to convince him to let me take Abjurant Champion or 3.5 Spellsword. I am seriously considering throwing away the full plate armor now, though he didn't allow the CM fighter variant (for the sole reason that its meant to be taken at 1st level and I didn't). If he allows Abjurant Champion, I'm going to ask him to houserule mage's armor and shield to work, otherwise I need other options to get the ASF down to acceptable levels or else use items for everything I need. Other interesting things I will find out is if the DM would allow a Sorcerer to pick up divine spells (you know there's a line in the flavor text that says Sorcerers sometimes pick up spells not on their spell list). My current (more solid) strategy revolves around using magic items to make my "gish" more dangerous, in general. Getting armor (or maybe custom item) of speed (+3 armor bonus modifier for permanent 3.0 haste, i.e. +4 AC and extra partial action per round), which he will allow since it's in Defenders of Faith, and getting a wand of shield (+7 cover bonus from a 750gp wand is just too sweet to pass up). Also on my wish list are boots of striding and springing for the speed increase (doubling). Some strength-bonus item might be handy, too, but I get that buff from the Cleric anyway and it doesn't stack (1d4+1 I believe). With +11 to AC, 50ft landspeed (in full plate) and an extra partial action, I should be dangerous enough even without full spellcasting ability. However, I don't see a fast/cheap way of dealing with spellcasters. The fastest I could see would be to somwhow pick up the spell spell resistance.. Anyways, that's the news. I'll update when there's more.
#25 reis Aug 21, 2008 23:08:39	mage armor and shield working with abjurant champion is really not a big house rule stretch at all considering that the text for the ability uses those spells as examples...pretty clear what happened is that WOTC just didn't realize that they are actually abjurations (not surprising).
#26 eldariel Aug 21, 2008 23:31:41	Pst. Shield already does. Also, Mage Armor is a brainfart on their part - it's not Conjuration by any stretch of imagination. It's a force plate, so it could be Evocation, but it's a protective spell so Abjuration works just fine too. There's the "Luminous Armor"-line in Book of Exalted Deeds that does well for Abjuration-based Mage Armor-substitute (better AC bonus too).
#27 suzerain Aug 22, 2008 14:23:14	Shield doesn't work in 3.0, AbjC only allows adding class levels to spells (of the abjuration school) that grant armor or shield boni. As I've written before, shield gives cover in 3.0, and thus doesn't fit the description. A tower shield gives cover instead of shield bonus, too, btw. Which is part of why I didn't take one as animated (the other part being the -10 check penalty). The spell is similar, as it effectively gives 75% cover in one direction. Edit: Thinking about using a wand of shield... I think in order to apply the bonus from AbjC I'd need scrolls (spell completion should count right?) or a staff (user's caster level and ability score - why not class features?)
#28 eldariel Aug 22, 2008 23:35:30	Oh yeah, 3.0. I already forgot it for a second *facepalm* And I don't think you'd have any luck using 3.5 spell completion items since spell completion items just cast the same spell and if your world uses the 3.0 version of Shield, that's what the completion items would do too.
#29 suzerain Aug 29, 2008 7:03:26	I was actually talking about the fact that to receive the bonus, the AbjC might need to actually cast the spell, not just trigger it. DM has approved Eldritch Knigth for good and skimmed over Abjurant Champion (thought it was looking good). A houserule will get rid of any problems relating to that class and any spells or spell-trigger items. Gave him page number and location of the clause that Sorcs get to have spells not on their lists, pending his approval. If so, Divine Power, Spell Resistance and Shield of Faith are some divine spells I'll be looking out for. If he restricts this ability to arcane spells only, I'd need time to think about the usefulness of that ability in relation to the drawbacks of being a Sorcerer (Fighter/Sorcerer combo... ain't that a great loser build? :P). But hey, at least I'd get healing spells from the Bard ;)
#30 suzerain Sep 01, 2008 17:17:22	Well, I went with the Abjurant Champion route (but with a little different feats since I wasn't allowed to kick both 6th-level feats (I kicked expertise as I figured I'd be getting quite high AC anyway), and it has worked quite well. Got armor of speed and boots of striding and springing. Working nicely. And I think I blew 4 charges off the shield wand in the first adventure since then. Not bad for 10 rounds of AC+9 :D Am now investigating Wizard options (since I noticed I couldn't just swap with charisma, as I have a racial penalty to it). I'll try to convince the DM to allow the Domain Wizard (but I don't think he will be). Not sure which domain to take if he approves... suggestions? Anyway, that's only an added gimmick. I'm puzzling away how to get shield of faith or any CL-dependant spell that grants deflection bonus. Or in fact anything that levels well with CL. Will be looking into the spell compendium to make sure I didn't miss any good spells. Anyways, thank you! You were truly a great help.