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melee cleric help please

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
bhale187
May 03, 2008 16:36:03 I am making a melee heavy Cleric, out of necessity, for a home brew campaign. We are starting play at 4th level, and the other PCs class choices have left us in need of a frontline melee fighter and a cleric, but only one playe is left. Therefore I am trying to come up with a cleric that can be effective in melee combat.

Here's what I've come up with so far, PEACH please

Wood Elf
Barbarian 1/ Cleric of Kelanen 3

S-20 D 11 Co 10 I 6 W 16 Cha 8 (28pt buy and +1 to STR at lvl 4)

Feats
Extra rage
Power Attack
Wp Focus-Great Sword (War Domain bonus)

I will be giving up fast movement until about 6th lvl in order to wear hvy armor. At 6th I'll start crafting, and probably pick up the speed again by making a magic breast plate.
__________________
#2
jaim
May 03, 2008 17:28:13 I wouldn't give up a caster level for no other benefit than being be able to rage, pure cleric already surpasses a single class barbarian at level 7 when you get divine power.
#3
Defenderz
May 03, 2008 17:32:57 books?
#4
aftercrescent
May 03, 2008 18:07:01 Defenderz is right. What books do you want?
Jaim is right. Barbarians on a cleric are terrible.
Elves are terrible melees imo, because of the con hit.
Humans will be much better. If LA buyoff is allowed, play an Aasimar. Give us more information and we can better help.
#5
bhale187
May 03, 2008 18:40:15 Classes, feats, and skills are open to any book for 3.5
Races however are limited to the basics in PHB plus wild elf, wood elf, and dream dwarf so no LA races.

I fail to see any basis to the claim that barbarian on a cleric is terrble. Of course Divine Power is going to be a huge boost at 7th level on a pure cleric instead of 8th on this build. However, there are a alot more combats between 4th and 7th then there are between 7th and 8th. Not to mention the fact that I can still rage after casting divine power and therefore get +10 STR instead of +6 that a straight Cleric would have at 8th level.

I'm not so concerned about CON due to starting play with an amulet +2 CON (should have mentioned that in first post). I am considering droping my STR and DEX back by one and starting CON at 13 and using my 4th level bump on CON instead of STR. That would put me at 16 with the amulet, and only set me back 1 AB and 1.5 dmg

BTW, hitpoints are figured as full at level 1 and each following level is 1/2 max +1 so cleric gets 5. Therefore another benefit of Barb at level 1 is 4 more HP.
#6
aftercrescent
May 03, 2008 18:52:09
Classes, feats, and skills are open to any book for 3.5
Races however are limited to the basics in PHB plus wild elf, wood elf, and dream dwarf so no LA races.

Play a human. That bonus feat is amazing.

I fail to see any basis to the claim that barbarian on a cleric is terrble. Of course Divine Power is going to be a huge boost at 7th level on a pure cleric instead of 8th on this build. However, there are a alot more combats between 4th and 7th then there are between 7th and 8th. Not to mention the fact that I can still rage after casting divine power and therefore get +10 STR instead of +6 that a straight Cleric would have at 8th level.

You can't rage and cast spells. Strictly speaking, spells >>>>>>>> rage. A cleric can do much better being a solid cleric than wasting a lost caster level on barbarian.

I'm not so concerned about CON due to starting play with an amulet +2 CON (should have mentioned that in first post). I am considering droping my STR and DEX back by one and starting CON at 13 and using my 4th level bump on CON instead of STR. That would put me at 16 with the amulet, and only set me back 1 AB and 1.5 dmg

-2 Con + 2 Con => 0 Con boost. Compared to just +2 Con => +2 Con boost. It's just that simple. If you are in melee, hit points are ESSENTIAL.

BTW, hitpoints are figured as full at level 1 and each following level is 1/2 max +1 so cleric gets 5.

Good. This make Con Even more important.

With 28 PB, try this
Str - 14, Dex - 10, Con - 14, Int - 10, Wis - 16, Cha - 10

Domains could be Any, but try Planning and Undeath. Both are in Spell Compendium.

Feats, take Persist spell and Divine Metamagic Persist Spell. Your third feat is Free to your choice. Now you can persist lesser vigor, giving yourself fast healing 1, which keeps you alive. Next level, persist mass lesser vigor to give everyone fast healing 1. If you can grab a nightstick or reliquary holy symbol (or both, or one and use feat 3 for extra turning), you can persist a second spell like divine favor, giving you bonus to attack & damage.

Also: Don't craft. It's not a terrible decision, but you can do much better. Just buy your items.
#7
Blade2718
May 03, 2008 19:07:56 Cleric/Ordained Champion is pretty simple and works just fine even at low levels. Pick up Touch of Healing and Sacred Healing to make up for the loss of spontaneous healing.
#8
gavinfoxx
May 03, 2008 23:50:02 I would suggest Divine Metamagic Quicken for a less... resource intensive way to get off spells.

Divine Metamagic: Quicken, Quicken Spell, Extra Turning.

I'm sure you can use some appropriate domains to get what you need... Ask your DM. If you can use a version that lets you have proficiency with one of the two handed or hand and a half hammers, you are golden... Especially if the Dwarven Substitution Level (also in Races of Stone) can be modified to work on a bigger hammer, or can be expanded to focus on the dwarven pantheon in your setting, not just Moradin (remember, if you can reflavor that to work on any hammer that is particularly golden, you can choose to be proficient in a hammer at about level 3, which is above where you are starting! Woohoo martial weapon proficiency!). I would say the Planning Domain would aksi be a great for a dwarven pantheon. Look for buff spells, especially self-buff spells. Use a Nightstick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol for the extra turning. Don't go overboard and have multiple versions of each -- just use one, and broaden your feats so Quickening spells isn't the ONLY thing you do... Maybe get Power Attack once you have access to Divine Power.
#9
bhale187
May 04, 2008 7:08:39 I appreciate the responses thusfare, but there not really ging the direction this character needs. My main concentration needs to be on doing melee damage, and secondary concern is being the healer.
#10
wwad_dup
May 04, 2008 8:53:35 For damage output, the choice is simple: Power Attack. Then work up to Shock Trooper with Improved Bull Rush. Your spells are much more important than raging and the buffs you get (sooner) will be more effective. Drop the metamagic/casting feats for combat ones (except maybe Combat Casting if you want to get into War Priest). WP gets d10 HD and 1:1 BAB. The caster progression slows, so make sure you at least get DP or RM first.
#11
bhale187
May 04, 2008 9:15:23
For damage output, the choice is simple: Power Attack. Then work up to Shock Trooper with Improved Bull Rush. Your spells are much more important than raging and the buffs you get (sooner) will be more effective. Drop the metamagic/casting feats for combat ones (except maybe Combat Casting if you want to get into War Priest). WP gets d10 HD and 1:1 BAB. The caster progression slows, so make sure you at least get DP or RM first.

I definately want to go for Shocktrooper, but I won't be able to get it until level 9. I'm thinking I'll retrain out of extra rage then to pickup imp bull rush.
#12
bhale187
May 04, 2008 9:17:24 I'm leaning towards this now

Wood Elf
Barbarian 1/ Cleric of Kelanen 3 (War/Travel Domains)

S-18/D-10/Co-14/I-6/W-16/Cha-8 (28pt buy and +1 to CON at lvl 4)
Starting with Amulet of +2 CON so CON 16

Feats
Extra rage
Power Attack
Wp Focus-Great Sword (War Domain bonus)

At 6th level I'll be taking Crafts arms/armor feat because in this world buying magic is nearly impossible for anything above +1 weapons/armor. Plus its always a huge bonus to be able to build anything I want at half cost essentially giving me twice as much magic.

At 9th level I'll retrain out of extra rage to take imp bull rush in order to get Shock trooper

Also trying to talk DM into letting me go Artic dwarf, awaiting his decision on that.
#13
gavinfoxx
May 04, 2008 13:17:13 Actually, the type of cleric I mentioned -- the buffing, two handed hammer type -- can do MASSIVE amounts of damage with the right spells and choices...
#14
phaedrusxy
May 04, 2008 13:31:34
At 6th level I'll be taking Crafts arms/armor feat because in this world buying magic is nearly impossible for anything above +1 weapons/armor. Plus its always a huge bonus to be able to build anything I want at half cost essentially giving me twice as much magic.

Buying anything above a +1 is a waste of money, anyway, except for special abilities. Buy a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell instead, and cast a couple of Magic Vestments on your armor and shield.

Also, look at the cleric handbook.

If you do take the barbarian level, get the alternative class feature that lets you pounce from Complete Champion.
#15
bhale187
May 04, 2008 13:32:28
Actually, the type of cleric I mentioned -- the buffing, two handed hammer type -- can do MASSIVE amounts of damage with the right spells and choices...

I am definately considering the dwarf hammer build using the dwarf cleric sub level at 4, and taking battlesmith later, but only if my DM approves the artic dwarf. I would much prefer the artic dwarf over the wod elf for the CON bonus. I am really wanting that +2 STR from the wood elf if I can't do the artic dwarf, and 1/2 orc is not really an option because the campaign is largely based on a war with the orc empire.

It was just your feat suggetions that didn't mesh well with my idea of a melee cleric. Generally with a cleric those would be no brainer feat choices, but I am looking at quicken and DMM feats as secondary functions that I can overlook in order to boost damage through the power attack and later shick trooper.

I was looking at Kelanen for the War domain free wp focus and I love the travel domain spells, especially since we don't have an arcane caster who will be able to cast fly, Dim door, etc. If I can do the dwarf I'll be looking for another deity from the Greyhawk list.
#16
bhale187
May 04, 2008 13:37:24
Buying anything above a +1 is a waste of money, anyway, except for special abilities. Buy a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell instead, and cast a couple of Magic Vestments on your armor and shield.

Also, look at the cleric handbook.

If you do take the barbarian level, get the alternative class feature that lets you pounce from Complete Champion.

I absolutely agree about anything beyond +1 being a waste, but the special abilities on magic items are also non-purchaseable. I'd have to craft the rod as well so kind of out of luck on it until I get higher up and can craft it myself.

I'll look into the alternate feature for barbarian, i had forgotten about it.
#17
phaedrusxy
May 04, 2008 13:56:14 Talk to the other party casters about sharing duty on taking item crafting feats. You could also take Leadership, and have a cohort with them. Multiple casters can work together to make things, and sharing the feat responsibility makes it alot less of a burden.
#18
bhale187
May 04, 2008 13:58:56
Talk to the other party casters about sharing duty on taking item crafting feats. You could also take Leadership, and have a cohort with them. Multiple casters can work together to make things, and sharing the feat responsibility makes it alot less of a burden.

Hadn't thought about the cohort later, but that's a good idea. Our Warmage is taking craft wonderous so that's a big help.
#19
banor
May 04, 2008 14:21:10 Craft Wonderous ? Why does he do that ? he don't even have the spells required to make most of items
#20
wwad_dup
May 04, 2008 14:39:15
I definately want to go for Shocktrooper, but I won't be able to get it until level 9. I'm thinking I'll retrain out of extra rage then to pickup imp bull rush.

Don't forget, if you're taking War Domain you can qualify for Ordained Champion (easily one of the most kick-butt PrC for a combat cleric because you get 2 free fighter feats). Second, you can drop a domain to take a Devotion feat (per complete champion), and I think it was already mentioned that Travel Devotion is amazing.

Here's an example (non-human)

Class Progression
1 - Cleric1 (Extra Turning), *Weapon Focus //free from War domain ability
2 - Cleric2
3 - Cleric3 (Power Attack)
4 - Cleric4 //+3 BAB
5 - Ordained Champion1 [ImpBull Rush][Cleave] //replaces domain abilities except War
6 - Ordained Champion2 [Die Hard], *Smite, (Extra Turning)

In this build, Extra Turning turns into Extra Smites (only more efficient). But you can also use them to power Travel Devotion at the cost of one of the bonus fighter feats.
#21
bhale187
May 04, 2008 14:48:43
Craft Wonderous ? Why does he do that ? he don't even have the spells required to make most of items

I just looked at the Warmage spells, never really paid attention to the class before, and this would/will be the first time that player used the class. I'm betting he had a brain fart on them not having access to anything but attack spells.
#22
phaedrusxy
May 04, 2008 22:48:32
I just looked at the Warmage spells, never really paid attention to the class before, and this would/will be the first time that player used the class. I'm betting he had a brain fart on them not having access to anything but attack spells.

As long as someone in the group can cast them, it doesn't really matter. They can just work with him to make them.
#23
d3f4ult
May 04, 2008 23:54:31 For crafting items, clerics are usually the best as they do not need rest in order to pray for spells. That means, while everyone is asleep, you can make items, and then just zap yourself with a ray of resurgence wand at the start of the day to get rid of the fatigue for not resting. Else, it will be kinda hard for the Warmage to craft unless there is sufficient downtime which should be scarce if you are in a war as you said.

Knowledge Devotion is good if your deity has the knowledge domain. Anyway, other than wanting to be a melee frontliner, why do you need to be a cleric? Is it for the healing or buffing? If it is for the healing, I would really recommend the Crusader instead.

Since you are probably going with the Wood Elf, I suggest you look at the Seeker of the Misty Isle. It gives Travel Domain at 1st level which you can sacrifice to get Travel Devotion or keep it for the spells and it gives you 1 more domain choice for the cleric at 1st lvl which you can either keep or sacrifice for a bonus feat or a devotion feat.

For a melee heavy cleric, I feel having Law Devotion + Knowledge Devotion + Power Attack is quite a good combination. Especially since you can cast Lore of the Gods which will give you +10 to all knowledge checks if your deity has the Knowledge Domain with Collector of Stories, you will be scoring hight +hit to be sacrificed for Power Attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bhale187 May 03, 2008 16:36:03	I am making a melee heavy Cleric, out of necessity, for a home brew campaign. We are starting play at 4th level, and the other PCs class choices have left us in need of a frontline melee fighter and a cleric, but only one playe is left. Therefore I am trying to come up with a cleric that can be effective in melee combat. Here's what I've come up with so far, PEACH please Wood Elf Barbarian 1/ Cleric of Kelanen 3 S-20 D 11 Co 10 I 6 W 16 Cha 8 (28pt buy and +1 to STR at lvl 4) Feats Extra rage Power Attack Wp Focus-Great Sword (War Domain bonus) I will be giving up fast movement until about 6th lvl in order to wear hvy armor. At 6th I'll start crafting, and probably pick up the speed again by making a magic breast plate. __________________
#2 jaim May 03, 2008 17:28:13	I wouldn't give up a caster level for no other benefit than being be able to rage, pure cleric already surpasses a single class barbarian at level 7 when you get divine power.
#3 Defenderz May 03, 2008 17:32:57	books?
#4 aftercrescent May 03, 2008 18:07:01	Defenderz is right. What books do you want? Jaim is right. Barbarians on a cleric are terrible. Elves are terrible melees imo, because of the con hit. Humans will be much better. If LA buyoff is allowed, play an Aasimar. Give us more information and we can better help.
#5 bhale187 May 03, 2008 18:40:15	Classes, feats, and skills are open to any book for 3.5 Races however are limited to the basics in PHB plus wild elf, wood elf, and dream dwarf so no LA races. I fail to see any basis to the claim that barbarian on a cleric is terrble. Of course Divine Power is going to be a huge boost at 7th level on a pure cleric instead of 8th on this build. However, there are a alot more combats between 4th and 7th then there are between 7th and 8th. Not to mention the fact that I can still rage after casting divine power and therefore get +10 STR instead of +6 that a straight Cleric would have at 8th level. I'm not so concerned about CON due to starting play with an amulet +2 CON (should have mentioned that in first post). I am considering droping my STR and DEX back by one and starting CON at 13 and using my 4th level bump on CON instead of STR. That would put me at 16 with the amulet, and only set me back 1 AB and 1.5 dmg BTW, hitpoints are figured as full at level 1 and each following level is 1/2 max +1 so cleric gets 5. Therefore another benefit of Barb at level 1 is 4 more HP.
#6 aftercrescent May 03, 2008 18:52:09	Classes, feats, and skills are open to any book for 3.5 Races however are limited to the basics in PHB plus wild elf, wood elf, and dream dwarf so no LA races. Play a human. That bonus feat is amazing. I fail to see any basis to the claim that barbarian on a cleric is terrble. Of course Divine Power is going to be a huge boost at 7th level on a pure cleric instead of 8th on this build. However, there are a alot more combats between 4th and 7th then there are between 7th and 8th. Not to mention the fact that I can still rage after casting divine power and therefore get +10 STR instead of +6 that a straight Cleric would have at 8th level. You can't rage and cast spells. Strictly speaking, spells >>>>>>>> rage. A cleric can do much better being a solid cleric than wasting a lost caster level on barbarian. I'm not so concerned about CON due to starting play with an amulet +2 CON (should have mentioned that in first post). I am considering droping my STR and DEX back by one and starting CON at 13 and using my 4th level bump on CON instead of STR. That would put me at 16 with the amulet, and only set me back 1 AB and 1.5 dmg -2 Con + 2 Con => 0 Con boost. Compared to just +2 Con => +2 Con boost. It's just that simple. If you are in melee, hit points are ESSENTIAL. BTW, hitpoints are figured as full at level 1 and each following level is 1/2 max +1 so cleric gets 5. Good. This make Con Even more important. With 28 PB, try this Str - 14, Dex - 10, Con - 14, Int - 10, Wis - 16, Cha - 10 Domains could be Any, but try Planning and Undeath. Both are in Spell Compendium. Feats, take Persist spell and Divine Metamagic Persist Spell. Your third feat is Free to your choice. Now you can persist lesser vigor, giving yourself fast healing 1, which keeps you alive. Next level, persist mass lesser vigor to give everyone fast healing 1. If you can grab a nightstick or reliquary holy symbol (or both, or one and use feat 3 for extra turning), you can persist a second spell like divine favor, giving you bonus to attack & damage. Also: Don't craft. It's not a terrible decision, but you can do much better. Just buy your items.
#7 Blade2718 May 03, 2008 19:07:56	Cleric/Ordained Champion is pretty simple and works just fine even at low levels. Pick up Touch of Healing and Sacred Healing to make up for the loss of spontaneous healing.
#8 gavinfoxx May 03, 2008 23:50:02	I would suggest Divine Metamagic Quicken for a less... resource intensive way to get off spells. Divine Metamagic: Quicken, Quicken Spell, Extra Turning. I'm sure you can use some appropriate domains to get what you need... Ask your DM. If you can use a version that lets you have proficiency with one of the two handed or hand and a half hammers, you are golden... Especially if the Dwarven Substitution Level (also in Races of Stone) can be modified to work on a bigger hammer, or can be expanded to focus on the dwarven pantheon in your setting, not just Moradin (remember, if you can reflavor that to work on any hammer that is particularly golden, you can choose to be proficient in a hammer at about level 3, which is above where you are starting! Woohoo martial weapon proficiency!). I would say the Planning Domain would aksi be a great for a dwarven pantheon. Look for buff spells, especially self-buff spells. Use a Nightstick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol for the extra turning. Don't go overboard and have multiple versions of each -- just use one, and broaden your feats so Quickening spells isn't the ONLY thing you do... Maybe get Power Attack once you have access to Divine Power.
#9 bhale187 May 04, 2008 7:08:39	I appreciate the responses thusfare, but there not really ging the direction this character needs. My main concentration needs to be on doing melee damage, and secondary concern is being the healer.
#10 wwad_dup May 04, 2008 8:53:35	For damage output, the choice is simple: Power Attack. Then work up to Shock Trooper with Improved Bull Rush. Your spells are much more important than raging and the buffs you get (sooner) will be more effective. Drop the metamagic/casting feats for combat ones (except maybe Combat Casting if you want to get into War Priest). WP gets d10 HD and 1:1 BAB. The caster progression slows, so make sure you at least get DP or RM first.
#11 bhale187 May 04, 2008 9:15:23	For damage output, the choice is simple: Power Attack. Then work up to Shock Trooper with Improved Bull Rush. Your spells are much more important than raging and the buffs you get (sooner) will be more effective. Drop the metamagic/casting feats for combat ones (except maybe Combat Casting if you want to get into War Priest). WP gets d10 HD and 1:1 BAB. The caster progression slows, so make sure you at least get DP or RM first. I definately want to go for Shocktrooper, but I won't be able to get it until level 9. I'm thinking I'll retrain out of extra rage then to pickup imp bull rush.
#12 bhale187 May 04, 2008 9:17:24	I'm leaning towards this now Wood Elf Barbarian 1/ Cleric of Kelanen 3 (War/Travel Domains) S-18/D-10/Co-14/I-6/W-16/Cha-8 (28pt buy and +1 to CON at lvl 4) Starting with Amulet of +2 CON so CON 16 Feats Extra rage Power Attack Wp Focus-Great Sword (War Domain bonus) At 6th level I'll be taking Crafts arms/armor feat because in this world buying magic is nearly impossible for anything above +1 weapons/armor. Plus its always a huge bonus to be able to build anything I want at half cost essentially giving me twice as much magic. At 9th level I'll retrain out of extra rage to take imp bull rush in order to get Shock trooper Also trying to talk DM into letting me go Artic dwarf, awaiting his decision on that.
#13 gavinfoxx May 04, 2008 13:17:13	Actually, the type of cleric I mentioned -- the buffing, two handed hammer type -- can do MASSIVE amounts of damage with the right spells and choices...
#14 phaedrusxy May 04, 2008 13:31:34	At 6th level I'll be taking Crafts arms/armor feat because in this world buying magic is nearly impossible for anything above +1 weapons/armor. Plus its always a huge bonus to be able to build anything I want at half cost essentially giving me twice as much magic. Buying anything above a +1 is a waste of money, anyway, except for special abilities. Buy a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell instead, and cast a couple of Magic Vestments on your armor and shield. Also, look at the cleric handbook. If you do take the barbarian level, get the alternative class feature that lets you pounce from Complete Champion.
#15 bhale187 May 04, 2008 13:32:28	Actually, the type of cleric I mentioned -- the buffing, two handed hammer type -- can do MASSIVE amounts of damage with the right spells and choices... I am definately considering the dwarf hammer build using the dwarf cleric sub level at 4, and taking battlesmith later, but only if my DM approves the artic dwarf. I would much prefer the artic dwarf over the wod elf for the CON bonus. I am really wanting that +2 STR from the wood elf if I can't do the artic dwarf, and 1/2 orc is not really an option because the campaign is largely based on a war with the orc empire. It was just your feat suggetions that didn't mesh well with my idea of a melee cleric. Generally with a cleric those would be no brainer feat choices, but I am looking at quicken and DMM feats as secondary functions that I can overlook in order to boost damage through the power attack and later shick trooper. I was looking at Kelanen for the War domain free wp focus and I love the travel domain spells, especially since we don't have an arcane caster who will be able to cast fly, Dim door, etc. If I can do the dwarf I'll be looking for another deity from the Greyhawk list.
#16 bhale187 May 04, 2008 13:37:24	Buying anything above a +1 is a waste of money, anyway, except for special abilities. Buy a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell instead, and cast a couple of Magic Vestments on your armor and shield. Also, look at the cleric handbook. If you do take the barbarian level, get the alternative class feature that lets you pounce from Complete Champion. I absolutely agree about anything beyond +1 being a waste, but the special abilities on magic items are also non-purchaseable. I'd have to craft the rod as well so kind of out of luck on it until I get higher up and can craft it myself. I'll look into the alternate feature for barbarian, i had forgotten about it.
#17 phaedrusxy May 04, 2008 13:56:14	Talk to the other party casters about sharing duty on taking item crafting feats. You could also take Leadership, and have a cohort with them. Multiple casters can work together to make things, and sharing the feat responsibility makes it alot less of a burden.
#18 bhale187 May 04, 2008 13:58:56	Talk to the other party casters about sharing duty on taking item crafting feats. You could also take Leadership, and have a cohort with them. Multiple casters can work together to make things, and sharing the feat responsibility makes it alot less of a burden. Hadn't thought about the cohort later, but that's a good idea. Our Warmage is taking craft wonderous so that's a big help.
#19 banor May 04, 2008 14:21:10	Craft Wonderous ? Why does he do that ? he don't even have the spells required to make most of items
#20 wwad_dup May 04, 2008 14:39:15	I definately want to go for Shocktrooper, but I won't be able to get it until level 9. I'm thinking I'll retrain out of extra rage then to pickup imp bull rush. Don't forget, if you're taking War Domain you can qualify for Ordained Champion (easily one of the most kick-butt PrC for a combat cleric because you get 2 free fighter feats). Second, you can drop a domain to take a Devotion feat (per complete champion), and I think it was already mentioned that Travel Devotion is amazing. Here's an example (non-human) Class Progression 1 - Cleric1 (Extra Turning), Weapon Focus //free from War domain ability 2 - Cleric2 3 - Cleric3 (Power Attack) 4 - Cleric4 //+3 BAB 5 - Ordained Champion1 [ImpBull Rush][Cleave] //replaces domain abilities except War 6 - Ordained Champion2 [Die Hard], Smite, (Extra Turning) In this build, Extra Turning turns into Extra Smites (only more efficient). But you can also use them to power Travel Devotion at the cost of one of the bonus fighter feats.
#21 bhale187 May 04, 2008 14:48:43	Craft Wonderous ? Why does he do that ? he don't even have the spells required to make most of items I just looked at the Warmage spells, never really paid attention to the class before, and this would/will be the first time that player used the class. I'm betting he had a brain fart on them not having access to anything but attack spells.
#22 phaedrusxy May 04, 2008 22:48:32	I just looked at the Warmage spells, never really paid attention to the class before, and this would/will be the first time that player used the class. I'm betting he had a brain fart on them not having access to anything but attack spells. As long as someone in the group can cast them, it doesn't really matter. They can just work with him to make them.
#23 d3f4ult May 04, 2008 23:54:31	For crafting items, clerics are usually the best as they do not need rest in order to pray for spells. That means, while everyone is asleep, you can make items, and then just zap yourself with a ray of resurgence wand at the start of the day to get rid of the fatigue for not resting. Else, it will be kinda hard for the Warmage to craft unless there is sufficient downtime which should be scarce if you are in a war as you said. Knowledge Devotion is good if your deity has the knowledge domain. Anyway, other than wanting to be a melee frontliner, why do you need to be a cleric? Is it for the healing or buffing? If it is for the healing, I would really recommend the Crusader instead. Since you are probably going with the Wood Elf, I suggest you look at the Seeker of the Misty Isle. It gives Travel Domain at 1st level which you can sacrifice to get Travel Devotion or keep it for the spells and it gives you 1 more domain choice for the cleric at 1st lvl which you can either keep or sacrifice for a bonus feat or a devotion feat. For a melee heavy cleric, I feel having Law Devotion + Knowledge Devotion + Power Attack is quite a good combination. Especially since you can cast Lore of the Gods which will give you +10 to all knowledge checks if your deity has the Knowledge Domain with Collector of Stories, you will be scoring hight +hit to be sacrificed for Power Attack.