Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tibrand Nov 16, 2009 15:21:06	Hello there optimizers! I want to tell ya all a story In my roleplaying group i am facing a problem, into the bones i am more of the "actor" or "larper" in the gaming group and iv come to realice that my builds always, always, always really suck! Also the other person in the group is really ****ing awsome making every encounter a one man show.  He is playing some kind of paladin of freedom of Mystra / wizard / magical item crafter running around in full plate and greatsword. Acting as both tank and arcane AoE killer. I want to give him the finger on the next meeting.  (and show the group that I can come up with an rockstar aswell!) Crazy you ask? Yes perhaps.  This is what i want with my character: 1. I like social skills and knowledge skills, UMD and tumble - the more my character can have of those the happier person i will be when i roleplay.  2. I want the character to be primary melee focused, hitting alot of times and also having a great critical threat range. 3. I have no problem with magical abilities/ spells / Psionics or whatever but having an arcane character is not as important to me as having an character that rocks in melee. 4. Opted builds that have 1lvl monk / 2lvl fighter / 1 Barbarian / sorcerer / etc 3lvl /etc 4lvl is very hard to motivate how the character gained those levels in alot of different classes so if its avoidable i would be happy. 5. Race doesnt matter but i rather play Human then the classical base races in PHB. Altho strange and rare playable races like Hellbred would be cool. I should tell you that i am only allowed to use Wotc material - dungeons and dragons 3.5 and the setting is set in the forgotten realms. We are adventuring in silver marches, anourach and unaproachable east.  The character will start at lvl 13 so if its playable from then would be good. The stats is rolled by using 4d6 picking the 3 best. ( 16, 16, 16, 14, 13, 13) I Can buy gear for 88000gp   If you could come up with some cool opted build that would fit my stile of play i would be very thankfull, having a build that actually shines would be great. Any other information that is needed? Thank you very much (and excuse my bad english - its my third language)
#2 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 16, 2009 15:53:58	Human CG 1. Bard - Dragon Touched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Dragon Heritage (Battle Dragon), Able Learner, 2x Flaws 2. Bard 3. Bard - Song of the Heart 4. Bard 5. Bard 6. Bard - Words of Creation 7. Crusader 8. Crusader 9. Jade Phoenix Mage - Song of the White Raven 10. Jade Phoenix Mage 11. Sublime Chord 12. Sublime Chord - Snowflake Wardance 13. Jade Phoenix Mage 14. Jade Phoenix Mage 15. Jade Phoenix Mage - Melodic Spellcasting 16. Jade Phoenix Mage 17. Jade Phoenix Mage 18. Jade Phoenix Mage - Versatile Spellcaster or Lingering Song 19. Jade Phoenix Mage 20. Jade Phoenix Mage BAB 17, Saves 12/8/11, 9th level Arcane Spells CL 16, Initiator Level 16 Items of Note: Harmonizing Echo Blade (MIC), Vest of Legends (DMGII), Badge of Valor (MIC) Spells of Note: Inspirational Boost and Creaking Cacophony (both SC), Harmonize and Harmonize Greater (both RoS). Not exactly a high crit build but, it has the social skills you want (and UMD), it can dish it out in combat, and your party will love all the nice extra sonic damage their attacks deal.
#3 tibrand Nov 16, 2009 19:03:19	It was very nice of you comming up with that build, but im not very interested in playing a supporting character. In combat i would like to take the role as the damage dealer, as the other player is tanking.  in 3.0 the prc weapon master gives you the feat/ability "ki critical" that combined with improved critical and keen rocked! Is there anything similar to do in 3.5 ?  (avoiding evil alignment would make it easier questing for me as we are currently helping the harpers)   Invisible blade prc seams very good to me, is it possible to combine it with soulknife and throwing master? Adding to that 1 level shadowdancer for hips. Iv heard that the feats crescent moon, dual strike, power critical and intuitive attack should be great to use in such build.  The problem for me really if Invisible blade/Shadowdancer/throwing master is good combination is what base class to start with and how many levels of base classes to take / how many in each prc.
#4 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 16, 2009 20:29:52	It was very nice of you comming up with that build, but im not very interested in playing a supporting character. In combat i would like to take the role as the damage dealer, as the other player is tanking. okay then in 3.0 the prc weapon master gives you the feat/ability "ki critical" that combined with improved critical and keen rocked! Is there anything similar to do in 3.5 ? Sadly in 3.5 Keen and Improved Crit don't stack but in the build presented below it will not be too much of an issue. (avoiding evil alignment would make it easier questing for me as we are currently helping the harpers) Okay then Invisible blade prc seams very good to me, is it possible to combine it with soulknife and throwing master? Adding to that 1 level shadowdancer for hips. Invisible Blade only works with daggers, punching daggers, and kukris. Mindblades are treated as Shortswords so it would not work. Shadowdancer is usually considered subpar as you can purchase a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM) and get HiPS and some other nice goodies for fairly cheap. Iv heard that the feats crescent moon, dual strike, power critical and intuitive attack should be great to use in such build.  The problem for me really if Invisible blade/Shadowdancer/throwing master is good combination is what base class to start with and how many levels of base classes to take / how many in each prc.  Okay then I will present two builds for you. One crit master and one throwing master. Human Crit Master Warblade - Adaptive Style, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Light Mace, Two Weapon Fighting 2x Flaws Warblade Warblade - Improved Buckler Defense Warblade Warblade - B: Combat Reflexes Warblade - Lightning Mace Warblade Warblade Warblade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting, B: Blade Meditation (Tiger Claw) Warblade Bloodclaw Master Bloodclaw Master - Greater Two Weapon Fighting Bloodclaw Master Bloodclaw Master Bloodclaw Master - Power Critical: Light Mace Warblade Warblade Warblade - Double Hit, B: Tiger Blooded Warblade Warblade Now the build looks a little odd until you add in your weapons of choice: two +X Aptitude Keen Kukris. So you've got your crit range of 15-20, with a 4+Int mod bonus to confirm critical hits, and when ever you crit you get an addition hit with Lightning Mace thanks to the Aptitude weapon enhancement. Now you don't have to take all five levels of Bloodclaw Master but take at least 3 for the most optimal abilities.  Human Throwing Build Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Combat Reflexes, 2x flaws Rogue Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting, ACF Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse Swashbuckler Swashbuckler - Far Shot Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw Master Thrower  Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, B: Dodge, Carmendine Monk Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, ACF Spell Reflection, B: Mobility Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting Master Thrower Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows Master Thrower - Rapid Shot Duelist Duelist 18 BAB, Master Thrower Abilities (Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, Weak Spot) can throw 16 daggers a round as ranged touch attacks at two targets. Items of Note: Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, Rogue's Vest, and a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades or a Quiver of Anariel set to daggers instead of arrows. You'll want to max out Int and Dex with this build for the highest amount of AC and damage bonus possible. A similar build I like though is Strongheart Halfling Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Whisper Knife 3/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2 or Strongheart Halfling Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Whisperknife 9/ Master Thrower 3
#5 tibrand Nov 16, 2009 21:06:50	Human  Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 13 1 level 1Rogue - dodge,mobility, sneak attack, trapfinding 2 level 1Fighter - combat reflexes 3 level 2Fighter- W. focus dagger, point blank shot 4 level 1Swashbuckler - weapon finesse 5 level 2Rogue - evasion 6 level 2Swashbuckler - far shot, grace +1 7 level 1Invisible blade 8 level 2Invisible blade 9 level 3Invisible blade - intuitiv attack 10 level 1Duelist 11 level 1Shadowdancer - Hips 12 level 3Swashbuckler - improved critical dagger, insightfull strike 13 level Invisible blade - 14 level Invisible blade - 15 level 3Fighter - improved initiative  16 level 4Fighter - power critical dager 17 level 5Fighter - 18 level 6Fighter -  Daring outlaw, Daring warrior 19 level 7Fighter -  20 level 8Fighter - Cresent moon TBH unsure if this build works as i havent calculated the skill ranks yet. I think the BAB rec should be fine. I dont know if this build is perfect, the last 5 levels wasnt very creative. My goal with the build is to be able to deal alot of dmg with a dagger, having tactical advantage by initiative and stealth.
#6 tibrand Nov 16, 2009 21:19:17	Noob questions:  Warblade, bloodclaw master where can i find them? ^^ What is 2x Flaws iv never seen it before i saw your first post. Is it possible to use a piercing or slashing weapon in the crit master build? (Mace never looks cool) Human Throwing Build Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Combat Reflexes, 2x flaws Rogue Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting, ACF Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse Swashbuckler Swashbuckler - Far Shot Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw Master Thrower  Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, B: Dodge, Carmendine Monk Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, ACF Spell Reflection, B: Mobility Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting Master Thrower Master Thrower Master Thrower - Rapid Shot Duelist Duelist 18 BAB, Master Thrower Abilities (Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, Weak Spot) can throw 16 daggers a round as ranged touch attacks at two targets. Items of Note: Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, Rogue's Vest, and a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades or a Quiver of Anariel set to daggers instead of arrows. You'll want to max out Int and Dex with this build for the highest amount of AC and damage bonus possible. A similar build I like though is Strongheart Halfling Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Whisper Knife 3/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2 or Strongheart Halfling Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Whisperknife 9/ Master Thrower 3 I Really like that build! but wouldnt it be better to take Duelist at an earlier stage to gain AC? 16 daggers / round?? Are you fracking serious? Thats epic What is the throwing master builds weakness? Also the post before i posted an idea of a Dagger duelist build.
#7 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 16, 2009 22:03:05	Noob questions:  Warblade, bloodclaw master where can i find them? ^^ What is 2x Flaws iv never seen it before i saw your first post. Warblade and Bloodclaw Master are in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords Flaws are from in Unearthed Arcana, check with your DM on this one basically you accept two flaws from Unearthed Arcana (or other sources such as Dragon Magazine) and recieve two addition feats. This option is only available at first level. Is it possible to use a piercing or slashing weapon in the crit master build? (Mace never looks cool) At the bottom of the crit build I posted that you would be using two +X Aptitude Keen Kukris as your weapons of choice. Basically the Aptitude weapon enhancement (also from Tome of Battle) makes whatever weapon it's on count as whatever weapon you need when dealing with feats and such so an Aptitude Kukri counts as a Light Mace for the Weapon Focus Light Mace, Power Critical Light Mace, and Lightning Maces feats. I Really like that build! but wouldnt it be better to take Duelist at an earlier stage to gain AC? 16 daggers / round?? Are you fracking serious? Thats epic What is the throwing master builds weakness? Well first you're getting Int modifier to AC from the monk levels thanks to the Carmendine Monk feat, then you're getting the Invisible Blade AC bonus, and then you get the Duelist AC bonus. The Duelist levels are at the end of the build to continue on with your BAB and AC (basically the Duelist is there to finish the build). The 16 daggers a round come from having a BAB of 16+ (18 at 20th level with that build), Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, and Palm Throw Trick (from Master Thrower).
#8 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 16, 2009 22:12:15	Human  Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 13 1 level 1Rogue - dodge,mobility, sneak attack, trapfinding 2 level 1Fighter - combat reflexes 3 level 2Fighter- W. focus dagger, point blank shot 4 level 1Swashbuckler - weapon finesse 5 level 2Rogue - evasion 6 level 2Swashbuckler - far shot, grace +1 7 level 1Invisible blade 8 level 2Invisible blade 9 level 3Invisible blade - intuitiv attack 10 level 1Duelist 11 level 1Shadowdancer - Hips 12 level 3Swashbuckler - improved critical dagger, insightfull strike 13 level Invisible blade - 14 level Invisible blade - 15 level 3Fighter - improved initiative  16 level 4Fighter - power critical dager 17 level 5Fighter - 18 level 6Fighter -  Daring outlaw, Daring warrior 19 level 7Fighter -  20 level 8Fighter - Cresent moon TBH unsure if this build works as i havent calculated the skill ranks yet. I think the BAB rec should be fine. I dont know if this build is perfect, the last 5 levels wasnt very creative. My goal with the build is to be able to deal alot of dmg with a dagger, having tactical advantage by initiative and stealth.  What a mess. You don't even qualify for the feat Cresent Moon with that build. If you're wanting to fight with daggers you'll want more sneak attack and more attacks per round to be effective. The Two Weapon Fighting chain will get you more attacks a round for both melee and ranged (throwing). The Duelist and Shadowdancer levels seem to be thrown in haphazardly. Intuitive attack is useless since you are using Dex for all attacks thanks to Weapon Finesse. Okay then let's try something a little more stream lined and easier. The Invisible Blade prestige class was altered from the author's original design (author's website). The original design, which can be found here: Invisible Blade (on his website under prestige classes), is much easier to follow and actually works pretty well when taken all the way through level 10. Human Str 13 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 13 Cha 14 Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Rogue Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus Dagger Swashbuckler Swashbuckler Invisible Blade (author's original design) - Two Weapon Fighting Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw, Palm Throw Trick Master Thrower Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Two With One Blow Trick Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows Master Thrower - Weak Spot Trick Invisible Blade - Craven Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - B: Far Shot Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Rapid Shot Invisible Blade Invisible Blade
#9 tibrand Nov 17, 2009 3:33:17	I like that build (rogue/swashbuckler/invisible blade/master thrower) some questions: Dont i need weapon focus throwing weapon? Or can i use weapon focus dagger for that? I dont know if my DM would allow the 10 level invisible blade as he might not view it as "official material" would it be smart then to add 5 levels fighter? Daring outlaw, improved initiative, improved critical and/or power critical wouldnt they be great feats to add?
#10 hsien Nov 17, 2009 10:06:01	Away form books but here goes Wpn Focus Dagger is correct; as far as I know there is no "Throwing Weapon" focus. I had a Mthrower that I loved but was restricted on books. If any WoTC is open I'd want to look at RoWild, Whisperknife in conjunction w/ MT as well as halfling Rogue alt-class, which gives increase SA dice on thrown, but reduced on melee. ToB: Swordsage Shadowhand. Assassin's stance to get +2d6 SA dice Feat (can't recall name) adds Dex mod to damage, with Shadow Hand weapons...Daggers are. Other Feats: Telling Blow: imo a must have for sneak dice thrower. Triggers SA on criticals, forget various tactics to get sa which usually limit you to one attack. Just do full attack and count on TB to trigger at least once Ranged Wpn Mastery (Piercing) Requires Wpn Specialization as Pre-req, so if your going fighter anyway, no reason not to get this +2 hit, +2 damage and +20 range Increment MT Tricks: Deadly precision (iirc) Increases Crit multiplier by +1 Palm Throw, keep in mind that it is a volley, see errata, so like Manyshot only one gets precision dice, and I've seen many DM's indicate that also includes all Precision based damage, ex: Swashbucklers Insightful strike is Precision based, although a flat number and not dice...check w/ DM about that distinction.
#11 felgoroth Nov 17, 2009 12:45:54	15-20x5 critical You can only do this if you have access to Oriental Adventures you can also do this with a Kukri or Falcion for a 13-20x3 multiplier.
#12 tibrand Nov 17, 2009 13:47:51	Is it possible to combine that 15-20 critt master build with a master thrower build? The idea of loads of flying daggers with higher critical threat range turns me on.
#13 felgoroth Nov 17, 2009 14:22:37	Um... If you read through that thread I said something about the Master Thrower.  The bad part is the Feat requirements for the Weapon Master from Oriental Adventures.  I can take a look at how to do it if you'd like.  It'll take me a little while though.  I'll try and have a build by tomorrow.
#14 tibrand Nov 17, 2009 15:05:46	man that would be awsome.  Oh and no halfling/gnome/short people if its avoidable! (i dont know why but when it comes to roleplaying those races i feel really odd being a large and muscular guy irl) Is Punshing daggers any weapon to use? They look really cool especially in a combination with "bracers of spitting out daggers".  But after viewing alot of build i get the impression human is the ****? Also that the drow is only good in R A Salvatores books! hehe
#15 felgoroth Nov 17, 2009 16:22:24	Your best bet for a Master Thrower build is to go with the one already posted (I believe it was Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower/Invisible Blade) you get improved critical with your daggers which gives them a 17-20x2 crit.  Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Whirlwind Attack are needed to go into the Weapon Master from Oriental Adventures and none of those feats are really beneficial to you as a Thrower.  The build that I posted is better for a melee character and is only possible if your DM is really lenient and also what their perspective is on the Great Horn Hammer.  EDIT: O! On another note don't forget to pick up Bracers of Extended Range if you do go with the thrower, if you have Far Shot you can throw your daggers 40ft. which opens up sneak attacking from 30ft. away with daggers (you max ranged sneak attack distance).
#16 tibrand Nov 17, 2009 16:32:18	iv thought of a build myself. Human 1 fighter - Dodge, mobility, expertise, combat reflexes, weapon focus throwing dagger + 2xflaw 2 fighter - weapon finesse 3 monk - two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting 4 monk - spring attack 5 fighter 6 fighter - whirlwind attack, improved critical throwing dagger 7 kensai  8 kensai 9 kensai - point blank shot 10 kensai 11 kensai 12 kensai - precise shot 13 kensai 14 master thrower 15 master thrower - greater two weapon fighting 16 master thrower 17 master thrower 18 master thrower - craven 19 rogue 20 rogue  little bit drunk here and i dont know if it will be "epic" but it works right?
#17 felgoroth Nov 17, 2009 16:35:28	iv thought of a build myself. Human 1 fighter - Dodge, mobility, expertise, combat reflexes, weapon focus throwing dagger + 2xflaw 2 fighter - weapon finesse 3 monk - two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting 4 monk - spring attack 5 fighter 6 fighter - whirlwind attack, improved critical throwing dagger 7 kensai  8 kensai 9 kensai - point blank shot 10 kensai 11 kensai 12 kensai - precise shot 13 kensai 14 master thrower 15 master thrower - greater two weapon fighting 16 master thrower 17 master thrower 18 master thrower - craven 19 rogue 20 rogue  little bit drunk here and i dont know if it will be "epic" but it works right?  You can only take certain feats as Monk Bonus Feats (unless your a Martial Monk but, that's from Dragon)
#18 tibrand Nov 17, 2009 16:48:01	Then perhaps this is the best build for me, but i have no idea what ACF Penetrating Strike is and dont think i have access to Dungeonscape. Also the Monk ACF variants is something i cant find.  Perhaps i should take improved critical instead of penetrating strike and add fighter levels instead of monk levels if i dont have the books needed / my DM dont allow it.  Is there any other books to find flaws in except UA as i cant pick 2 flaws there that would be "good" for me.  Also i should add our houserules: We have the option to make a roll to defend ourself from attacks using AC +dex mod (IIRC) i think the DM mentioned he found the houserule online. We also gain HP every ODD level.  (dont know if the houserules changes anything with the builds powerness) Human Throwing Build Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Combat Reflexes, 2x flaws Rogue Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting, ACF Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse Swashbuckler Swashbuckler - Far Shot Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw Master Thrower  Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, B: Dodge, Carmendine Monk Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, ACF Spell Reflection, B: Mobility Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting Master Thrower Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows Master Thrower - Rapid Shot Duelist Duelist 18 BAB, Master Thrower Abilities (Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, Weak Spot) can throw 16 daggers a round as ranged touch attacks at two targets. Items of Note: Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, Rogue's Vest, and a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades or a Quiver of Anariel set to daggers instead of arrows. You'll want to max out Int and Dex with this build for the highest amount of AC and damage bonus possible.  A similar build I like though is Strongheart Halfling Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Whisper Knife 3/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2 or Strongheart Halfling Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Whisperknife 9/ Master Thrower 3
#19 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 18, 2009 3:03:24	Then perhaps this is the best build for me, but i have no idea what ACF Penetrating Strike is and dont think i have access to Dungeonscape. Also the Monk ACF variants is something i cant find.  Perhaps i should take improved critical instead of penetrating strike and add fighter levels instead of monk levels if i dont have the books needed / my DM dont allow it.  ACF = Alternate Class Feature, it's not a feat. It replaces one class ability with a variant class ability. The Cobra Strike Monk ACF can be found here. Cobra Strike Monk is in Unearthed Arcana along with many other Alternate Class Features for other classes from the Player's Handbook.  Basically all the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape allows you to do is deal half damage against things normally immune to sneak attack in exchange for the rogue's trap sense ability. With the build that I presented you, yes you can throw 16 daggers a round (at level 18+), however with the Two Weapon Fighting chain that also means that when you are in melee you get 7 melee attacks per round (at level 18+). Okay I guess I need to stream line the build even further accounting for your lack of source material (first build without flaws, second build with flaws). Human Throwing Build (Using only Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Complete Warrior and No Flaws), starting stats of Str 13 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 13 Cha 14, Ability Score Increases 4th Level +1 Dex, 8th Level +1 Dex, 12th level +1 Int, 16 Level +1 Int, 20th level +1 Dex Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Rogue Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse Swashbuckler Swashbuckler - Weapon Focus Dagger Fighter - B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting Fighter - B: Dodge Master Thrower - Far Shot, B: Quick Draw, Palm Throw Trick Master Thrower Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Rapid Shot Master Thrower - Two With One Blow Trick Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows Master Thrower - Mobility, Weak Spot Trick Duelist Duelist Human Throwing Build (Using only Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Complete Warrior and  Flaws), starting stats of Str 13 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 13 Cha 14, Ability Score Increases 4th Level +1 Dex, 8th Level +1 Dex, 12th level +1 Int, 16 Level +1 Int, 20th level +1 Dex Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dodge, Mobilty, Flaw: Poor Reflexes, Flaw: Inattentive Rogue Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse Swashbuckler Swashbuckler - Weapon Focus Dagger Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw, Palm Throw Trick Master Thrower Master Thrower - Far Shot, Two With One Blow Trick Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting, B: Snatch Arrows Master Thrower - Weak Spot Trick Duelist Duelist - Rapid Shot Duelist Duelist For Items you'll want Bracers of Armor, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Gloves of Dexterity and Headband of Intellect of the highest denominations you can afford. You'll want two dagger for melee (+ X Keen and possibly Defending daggers). For throwing daggers you'll want to see if your DM will allow you to have either a modified Heward's Handy Haversack that does not rupture when sharp objects are placed into it so that you have a space store about 120 daggers (preferably masterwork) for throwing. Call it say a Bountiful Bandoleer or something like that. Another option would be to see if your DM would allow you to modify a Quiver of Ehlonna to just hold daggers. You said on your first post you had 88000gp at level 13 for gear. Here is a list of gear for the build above 27000gp - Ring of Blinking 16604gp - Two +1 Keen Daggers (for melee) 16000gp - Bracers of Armor +4 4000gp - Gloves of Dexterity +2 4000gp - Headband of Intellect +2 4000gp - Cloak of Resistance +2 2000gp - Ring of Protection +1 2000gp - Amulet of Natural Armor + 1 5000gp - Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 2500gp - Ring of Sustenance 2500gp - Bountiful Bandoleer (modified Hewards Handy Haversack which can hold 120 daggers, approximate price because of slight modification) 2000gp - Heward's Handy Haversack (regular) 750gp - Wand of Shield (activate 1st round of combat or right before combat using UMD) 256gp - 128 daggers (enough for 8 rounds of continuous throwing at level 18 or higher) 100gp - Masterwork Thieves Tools =86210gp Leaving 1790gp for other expenditures. Sites that I have used while designing these builds for you that may get some use out of SRD: Systems Reference Document - Open Source OGL of the 3.5 Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana Forgotten Realms Help - specifically for some of the obscure feats, but also has info on cleric domains, prestige class requirements, deities, and other goodies focused on Core and Forgotten Realms material
#20 tibrand Nov 18, 2009 10:14:31	Houserules: We have the option to make a roll to defend ourself from attacks using Bab+dex mod + d20 against the attack.  We also gain HP every ODD level.  Human Throwing Build Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Combat Reflexes, 2x flaws Rogue Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting, ACF Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse Swashbuckler Swashbuckler - Far Shot Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw Master Thrower  Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, B: Dodge, Carmendine Monk Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, ACF Spell Reflection, B: Mobility Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting Master Thrower Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows Master Thrower - Rapid Shot Duelist Duelist 18 BAB, Master Thrower Abilities (Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, Weak Spot) can throw 16 daggers a round as ranged touch attacks at two targets. Items of Note: Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, Rogue's Vest, and a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades or a Quiver of Anariel set to daggers instead of arrows. You'll want to max out Int and Dex with this build for the highest amount of AC and damage bonus possible.  A similar build I like though is Strongheart Halfling Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Whisper Knife 3/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2 or Strongheart Halfling Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Whisperknife 9/ Master Thrower 3
#21 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 18, 2009 14:38:12	Human Throwing Build Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Combat Reflexes, 2x flaws Rogue Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting, ACF Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse Swashbuckler Swashbuckler - Far Shot Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw Master Thrower  Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, B: Dodge, Carmendine Monk Monk - ACF Cobra Strike Variant, ACF Spell Reflection, B: Mobility Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting Invisible Blade Invisible Blade Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting Master Thrower Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows Master Thrower - Rapid Shot Duelist Duelist 18 BAB, Master Thrower Abilities (Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, Weak Spot) can throw 16 daggers a round as ranged touch attacks at two targets. Items of Note: Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, Rogue's Vest, and a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades or a Quiver of Anariel set to daggers instead of arrows. You'll want to max out Int and Dex with this build for the highest amount of AC and damage bonus possible.
#22 tibrand Nov 18, 2009 15:48:30	sounds nice, what feat would you recommend me to skip if i would take the hellbred race? ? Isnt the feat daring outlaw needed?
#23 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 19, 2009 0:53:48	sounds nice, what feat would you recommend me to skip if i would take the hellbred race? ? Isnt the feat daring outlaw needed? I would say skip Combat Reflexes. Daring Outlaw is not needed. For your devil touch feats from hellbred, I recommend Devil's Flesh at 4th level and Devil's Stamina at 14th level. Although you could take the Spirit option for hellbred for Darkvision (at 12th level being able to see in magical darkness is not too shabby either) however you would end with lower hit points. So really it's a toss up which hellbred aspect to go with in your case.
#24 hsien Nov 19, 2009 9:04:00	And your damage per dagger with sneak attack is 1d4+str mod+int mod+13+4d6. With a Ring of Blinking you should be able to sneak attack on every hit. 2 Points to clarify: 1: The MT Tricks Palm Throw and Weak Spot do not allow for Str Mod to damage when used. 2: Palm Throw is a volley similar to Manyshot, per errata, so only one dagger (per attack roll) can get the SA dice.
#25 tibrand Nov 19, 2009 10:46:22	And your damage per dagger with sneak attack is 1d4+str mod+int mod+13+4d6. With a Ring of Blinking you should be able to sneak attack on every hit. 2 Points to clarify: 1: The MT Tricks Palm Throw and Weak Spot do not allow for Str Mod to damage when used. 2: Palm Throw is a volley similar to Manyshot, per errata, so only one dagger (per attack roll) can get the SA dice.  Yes i thought about it aswell, but as the build will have weapon finesse - then the dmg would be: 1d4+dex mod+int mod+13+4d6
#26 hsien Nov 19, 2009 12:05:37	Yes i thought about it aswell, but as the build will have weapon finesse - then the dmg would be: 1d4+dex mod+int mod+13+4d6  You replaced Str mod with a Dex mod. Where is the Dex mod to damage coming from?
#27 tibrand Nov 19, 2009 12:44:57	sorry im either drunk or stupid, thinking that weapon finesse affected dmg roll when it affects attack roll.  Anyway for this build i dont think STR mod will be that important as my character will have +1 STR mod or +2 STR mod if im REALLY lucky.
#28 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 20, 2009 2:04:01	sorry im either drunk or stupid, thinking that weapon finesse affected dmg roll when it affects attack roll.  Anyway for this build i dont think STR mod will be that important as my character will have +1 STR mod or +2 STR mod if im REALLY lucky.   Yes Palm Throw is a volley attack. You won't get your str mod on Palm Throw and Weak Spot (though for melee attacks you will) but you will still get your Int mod on all dagger attack damage thanks to swashbuckler. If at level 13 you Palm Throw and all attacks hit with sneak attack damage you will be looking at damage of 10d4 + 10xInt Mod + 20d6 sneak attack +65 from craven (assuming 16 starting Int and +2 Headband of Intellect for an Int score of 18) for a minimum of 135 damage, average of 200 damage, and maximum of 265 damage. Decent damage potential at least.
#29 hsien Nov 20, 2009 9:45:09	Yes Palm Throw is a volley attack. You won't get your str mod on Palm Throw and Weak Spot (though for melee attacks you will) but you will still get your Int mod on all dagger attack damage thanks to swashbuckler. If at level 13 you Palm Throw and all attacks hit with sneak attack damage you will be looking at damage of 10d4 + 10xInt Mod + 20d6 sneak attack +65 from craven (assuming 16 starting Int and +2 Headband of Intellect for an Int score of 18) for a minimum of 135 damage, average of 200 damage, and maximum of 265 damage. Decent damage potential at least. Since Palm Throw amd Weak Spot are throwing tricks, they are usable in/don't effect melee. Not sure of the damage figures, keep in mind only one dagger (per attack) will get SA because it's a volley as well.  Is the 13th level representing 5 attacks w/ 2 daggers/attack from Palm Throw That works out to...assuming DM doesn't restrict SW or Craven to one dagger as well Target 1: 10d4 + (10 x Int Mod ) + Craven + 10d6 SA  ...only see 2d6/attack in this build, unless it has Daring Outlaw and I missed it. ...thought Craven added character level to damage for each hit, not sure as never got to use it Thats still good damage though. Target 2; every DM I've played with only allowed one dagger to continue, and removed all Precision base damage; so in my games that would just be 5d4    ( I never got to use Craven, not sure if it's classified as Precision based, but presume it is)
#30 gorfnad_the_shiznit Nov 20, 2009 15:36:58	Since Palm Throw amd Weak Spot are throwing tricks, they are usable in/don't effect melee. Not sure of the damage figures, keep in mind only one dagger (per attack) will get SA because it's a volley as well.  Is the 13th level representing 5 attacks w/ 2 daggers/attack from Palm Throw That works out to...assuming DM doesn't restrict SW or Craven to one dagger as well Target 1: 10d4 + (10 x Int Mod ) + Craven + 10d6 SA  ...only see 2d6/attack in this build, unless it has Daring Outlaw and I missed it. ...thought Craven added character level to damage for each hit, not sure as never got to use it Thats still good damage though. Target 2; every DM I've played with only allowed one dagger to continue, and removed all Precision base damage; so in my games that would just be 5d4    ( I never got to use Craven, not sure if it's classified as Precision based, but presume it is) Actually the build has 2d6 sneak attack from rogue and 2d6 dagger sneak attack from invisible blade (at level 13, his target starting level) for a total of 4d6 sneak attack with daggers. Craven damage is added in with the sneak attack damage so the full sneak attack damage on one dagger is 4d6+13 (at level 13).  With Palm Throw as stated in previous posts only one dagger per attack gets sneak attack. Hence my calculations. 10d4 (10 daggers) + 10xInt Mod (10 daggers) + 20d6 (5 daggers with 4d6 sneak attack) + 65 (5 daggers with craven). All the DM's I have played with allowed the master thrower tricks to stack so that Target got hit with the same amount of daggers as the first target (assuming all of the attacks hit).
#31 slayerofallevil Nov 20, 2009 20:57:25	I like social skills and knowledge skills, social isnt needed for combat. neither is knowledge. and your english is quite good.
#32 eyurdagul Nov 21, 2009 6:26:27	Try something like a dwarven cleric/battlesmith/warblade/bloodstorm blade/master thrower and slap on 4 levels of disciple of dispater if you don't mind being evil. Not as elegant as throwing daggers but you get to be a mix of Bowser and Xena and hit everything that moves with a single throw of your hammer. And you crit often and you crit hard.