Melee, the traditional way - viable or not? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 seventh_wing Mar 08, 2009 19:08:53	Q6026: I'd like to play a crusader or a warblade in an upcoming campaign. Now, I know that using reach weapons and lockdown/crackdown techniques is practically considered a must around here, but I was wondering... Is there a way to play a heavy melee character effectively without abusing tripping and reach (and without charging around the battlefield like a rat on fire)? Is the greatsword a thing of the past? If there is, please provide a link to the build, or explain (in short) how it works. Thanks!
#2 seventh_wing Mar 08, 2009 19:17:13	--
#3 seventh_wing Mar 08, 2009 19:19:49	Replies, copied from the other thread: You can be an effective warblade or crusader without tripping. Their maneuvers make them versatile in the ways they can affect a game. The fighter does not have all the options ToB classes do so to be most effective he is better off going into trip mode. After Edit: PS I just realized I did not answer the question. You can go the route of HP depletion, while using your maneuvers to help with that. Some(maneuvers) also affect ability scores, and have special affects. I would suggest looking at the maneuvers and choosing the ones that embrace your character concept. You should be ok. You could probably get away with a lack of tripping. But if you lack reach, you're taking free hits from... well almost everything, which is really bad, considering that one full attack is taking you to 30% health as is... making it very likely the AoOs can push you over. However, the thing to keep in mind is that you need to do a LOT of damage to actually bother things... this is a factor of charging. If you can't do massive amounts of HP damage, you might as well not bother with that at all. ToB sorts do get a few things that help with this, but you still need to charge to get your damage high enough. Which means even with ToB, if you aren't willing to do either of the above you will have an incredibly difficult time being relevant. It is not hard to do enough damage to matter unless you are fighting a tarrasque or a dragon. Even the Pit Fiend and Balor don't really have a lot of HP. 50+ HP per attack is possible, and with the two fore-mentioned having about 300 that is 1/6 of their hp, not counting what the rest of your party can do. Now if the rest of the party is not up to snuff then you may be forced to go into charge mode. Otoh if you are constantly fighting T's and Dragons trip is not going to help you anyway, and that is a game I want no part of. We may have to make another thread since multiple post does not make things seem so simple. PS: I was mistaken. The Pit Fiend only has about 200, but it has regeneration.
#4 phaedrusxy Mar 08, 2009 19:29:56	It can certainly be "viable" in a group with good spellcasting support. Melees can make decent battlefield controllers (but it sounds like that's not what you're after) and can be excellent sources of damage output. Charging is the usual means of boosting their damage output, but it's not the only one. It is also entirely possible to make a melee-based "debuffer", with things like the Hexblade's alternate familiar and Palladin of Tyrranny/Blackguard, Imperious Command, and the Mage Slayer feat tree to dispel buffs. And this is only considering the higher levels. At the lower levels, melees can be quite effective as the spellcasters don't have the staying power or durability to just WTFPWN everything with impunity, if you're facing multiple encounters per day, as you should be. Also, it depends on the group you're in. If it's a group of high level Ur-Priests and Incantatrixes... you better be a charging Berzerker. If the wizard has WF: Dagger, you'll be fine. ;)
#5 jameswilliamogle Mar 09, 2009 9:40:45	I've build a few straight Fighters that have excellent damage output and have some tricks in addition to that. Most of it involves getting two to three feats that combine well with dual-damage-type weapons. As a Warblade, you could pick up the prereq feats needed for this, or just have some mix of Fighter to boost up your effective Fighter level instead. Consider combining Piercing Strike, Shocktrooper, Flay, Crushing Blow, Lightening Mace, Dungeoncrasher ACF, and Morninstars, for example. Add on to that the Warblade's maneuvers and you have a LOT of tricks to fall back on.
#6 carnivore Mar 09, 2009 11:15:19	here is a fun build ... that does not rely on Charging, Tripping, Reach, or lockdown: Title:The Intelligent Unarmed Spanker type: Tactical,Unarmed AoO Race: Human Build Stub: Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 15 Ability scores: DEX>INT>CON>STR>CHA>WIS 28-PB: 14, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10 32-PB: 16, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10 1.Monk 2.Monk 3.Swashbuckler 4.Swashbuckler 5.Warblade 6.Warblade 7.Swashbuckler 8.Warblade 9.Warblade 10.Warblade 11.Warblade 12.Warblade 13.Warblade 14.Warblade 15.Warblade 16.Warblade 17.Warblade 18.Warblade 19.Warblade 20.Warblade feats Improved Unarmed(monk) Combat Reflexes(monk) Improved Grapple(monk) Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler) Unnerving Calm(Warblade) Blade Meditation(Warblade) Ironheart(warblade) Carmondine Monk Superior Unarmed Strike 2 weapon fighting Improved 2 weapon fighting Double Hit Robilars Gambit Martial Study(Cloak of Deception,SH2) Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7) 16 Str(base 10 + 6 item) 28 Dex(base 16 + 6 item +1 lvl +5 inherent) 20 Con(base 14 + 6 item) 30 Int(base 16 + 6 item +4 lvls +4 Inherent) 16 Wis(base 10 + 6 item) 16 Cha(base 10 + 6 item) at 20th lvl......BAB +19 Full Attack 19+9 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet) +33/+28/+23/+18 and 3d6(2d6 @ +1 Size)+10 Int +3 Str= 3d6+13 Each thus when flurry and 2 Wpn fight and imp 2wpn fight...attack bonus is as follows: +31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+15 and he gets 9 AoOs...which generate 2 attacks for each(Double Hit)....all at: 19+9 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet) +10 Int(Warblade) +43/+43...and 3d6+23damage he gets: Int to Damage(Unarmed) Int to AC Int to Confirm Crits 2xInt to Damage vs Flatfooted/Flanked Int to Opposed checks(bull rush,trip,etc...) Int to Attack for AoO 2xInt to Damage for AoO Dex to Attack Dex to AC Dex to Initiative Manuvers: Diamond Mind: Moment of Perfect Clarity Action Before Thought Rapid Counter Pearl of Black Doubt(stance) Tiger Claw: Hunters Stance Wolverine Stance Wolf Pack Tactics Stance Pouncing Charge Dancing Mongoose Raging Mongoose Girallons Windmill Shadow Hand...thru Martial Study Cloak of Deception Shadow Blink The main idea.......a Character who looks unimposing...No weapons, No Spell books,or component pouches....looks like a servant or butler...... For combat.....uses Cloak of Deception to go Greater invisible then While in Wolf pack Stance...can attack and Move 5' after each attack...if he uses 2 attacks for 4 opponents...he does an extra 8d6 to each...and if they attack him he gets 2 AoO attacks if both hit..he does an extra 8d6 each time because he is still under the efects of Giralllons Windmill.....after he attacks...he uses Shadow Blink to get back to his start Position as if nothing happened...and becomes visible again :D

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

seventh_wing

Mar 08, 2009 19:08:53

Q6026: I'd like to play a crusader or a warblade in an upcoming campaign. Now, I know that using reach weapons and lockdown/crackdown techniques is practically considered a must around here, but I was wondering...

Is there a way to play a heavy melee character effectively without abusing tripping and reach (and without charging around the battlefield like a rat on fire)? Is the greatsword a thing of the past?

If there is, please provide a link to the build, or explain (in short) how it works. Thanks!

seventh_wing

Mar 08, 2009 19:17:13

seventh_wing

Mar 08, 2009 19:19:49

Replies, copied from the other thread:

You can be an effective warblade or crusader without tripping. Their maneuvers make them versatile in the ways they can affect a game. The fighter does not have all the options ToB classes do so to be most effective he is better off going into trip mode.

After Edit:
PS I just realized I did not answer the question. You can go the route of HP depletion, while using your maneuvers to help with that. Some(maneuvers) also affect ability scores, and have special affects. I would suggest looking at the maneuvers and choosing the ones that embrace your character concept. You should be ok.

You could probably get away with a lack of tripping. But if you lack reach, you're taking free hits from... well almost everything, which is really bad, considering that one full attack is taking you to 30% health as is... making it very likely the AoOs can push you over.

However, the thing to keep in mind is that you need to do a LOT of damage to actually bother things... this is a factor of charging. If you can't do massive amounts of HP damage, you might as well not bother with that at all. ToB sorts do get a few things that help with this, but you still need to charge to get your damage high enough.

Which means even with ToB, if you aren't willing to do either of the above you will have an incredibly difficult time being relevant.

It is not hard to do enough damage to matter unless you are fighting a tarrasque or a dragon. Even the Pit Fiend and Balor don't really have a lot of HP. 50+ HP per attack is possible, and with the two fore-mentioned having about 300 that is 1/6 of their hp, not counting what the rest of your party can do. Now if the rest of the party is not up to snuff then you may be forced to go into charge mode.
Otoh if you are constantly fighting T's and Dragons trip is not going to help you anyway, and that is a game I want no part of.

We may have to make another thread since multiple post does not make things seem so simple.

PS: I was mistaken. The Pit Fiend only has about 200, but it has regeneration.

phaedrusxy

Mar 08, 2009 19:29:56

It can certainly be "viable" in a group with good spellcasting support. Melees can make decent battlefield controllers (but it sounds like that's not what you're after) and can be excellent sources of damage output. Charging is the usual means of boosting their damage output, but it's not the only one.

It is also entirely possible to make a melee-based "debuffer", with things like the Hexblade's alternate familiar and Palladin of Tyrranny/Blackguard, Imperious Command, and the Mage Slayer feat tree to dispel buffs.

And this is only considering the higher levels. At the lower levels, melees can be quite effective as the spellcasters don't have the staying power or durability to just WTFPWN everything with impunity, if you're facing multiple encounters per day, as you should be.

Also, it depends on the group you're in. If it's a group of high level Ur-Priests and Incantatrixes... you better be a charging Berzerker. If the wizard has WF: Dagger, you'll be fine. ;)

jameswilliamogle

Mar 09, 2009 9:40:45

I've build a few straight Fighters that have excellent damage output and have some tricks in addition to that. Most of it involves getting two to three feats that combine well with dual-damage-type weapons. As a Warblade, you could pick up the prereq feats needed for this, or just have some mix of Fighter to boost up your effective Fighter level instead.

Consider combining Piercing Strike, Shocktrooper, Flay, Crushing Blow, Lightening Mace, Dungeoncrasher ACF, and Morninstars, for example. Add on to that the Warblade's maneuvers and you have a LOT of tricks to fall back on.

carnivore

Mar 09, 2009 11:15:19

here is a fun build ... that does not rely on Charging, Tripping, Reach, or lockdown:

Title:The Intelligent Unarmed Spanker

type: Tactical,Unarmed AoO
Race: Human
Build Stub: Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Warblade 15

Ability scores: DEX>INT>CON>STR>CHA>WIS
28-PB: 14, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10
32-PB: 16, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10

1.Monk
2.Monk
3.Swashbuckler
4.Swashbuckler
5.Warblade
6.Warblade
7.Swashbuckler
8.Warblade
9.Warblade
10.Warblade
11.Warblade
12.Warblade
13.Warblade
14.Warblade
15.Warblade
16.Warblade
17.Warblade
18.Warblade
19.Warblade
20.Warblade

feats

Improved Unarmed(monk)
Combat Reflexes(monk)
Improved Grapple(monk)
Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler)
Unnerving Calm(Warblade)
Blade Meditation(Warblade)
Ironheart(warblade)
Carmondine Monk
Superior Unarmed Strike
2 weapon fighting
Improved 2 weapon fighting
Double Hit
Robilars Gambit
Martial Study(Cloak of Deception,SH2)
Martial Study(Shadow Blink,SH7)

16 Str(base 10 + 6 item)
28 Dex(base 16 + 6 item +1 lvl +5 inherent)
20 Con(base 14 + 6 item)
30 Int(base 16 + 6 item +4 lvls +4 Inherent)
16 Wis(base 10 + 6 item)
16 Cha(base 10 + 6 item)

at 20th lvl......BAB +19

Full Attack
19+9 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet)

+33/+28/+23/+18
and 3d6(2d6 @ +1 Size)+10 Int +3 Str= 3d6+13 Each
thus when flurry and 2 Wpn fight and imp 2wpn fight...attack bonus is as follows:

+31/+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+15

and he gets 9 AoOs...which generate 2 attacks for each(Double Hit)....all at:

19+9 Dex+ 5 Enhancement(greater magic weapon..or ammulet) +10 Int(Warblade)
+43/+43...and 3d6+23damage

he gets:

Int to Damage(Unarmed)
Int to AC
Int to Confirm Crits
2xInt to Damage vs Flatfooted/Flanked
Int to Opposed checks(bull rush,trip,etc...)
Int to Attack for AoO
2xInt to Damage for AoO
Dex to Attack
Dex to AC
Dex to Initiative

Manuvers:
Diamond Mind:
Moment of Perfect Clarity
Action Before Thought
Rapid Counter
Pearl of Black Doubt(stance)

Tiger Claw:
Hunters Stance
Wolverine Stance
Wolf Pack Tactics Stance
Pouncing Charge
Dancing Mongoose
Raging Mongoose
Girallons Windmill

Shadow Hand...thru Martial Study
Cloak of Deception
Shadow Blink

The main idea.......a Character who looks unimposing...No weapons, No Spell books,or component pouches....looks like a servant or butler......

For combat.....uses Cloak of Deception to go Greater invisible then While in Wolf pack Stance...can attack and Move 5' after each attack...if he uses 2 attacks for 4 opponents...he does an extra 8d6 to each...and if they attack him he gets 2 AoO attacks if both hit..he does an extra 8d6 each time because he is still under the efects of Giralllons Windmill.....after he attacks...he uses Shadow Blink to get back to his start Position as if nothing happened...and becomes visible again

:D