I'll be playing a 3.5 ranger in an upcoming campaign and due to the small number of players (and personal taste, I suppose) I want him to be fairly competent at 2-weapon fighting *and* ranged combat. I know it's better to focus on one or the other, but I'm looking for the right combination of feats/skills/combat style path to make him able to hold his own.
The following books are available: PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, MM4, PHB2, DMG2, Heroes of Battle, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel, and all those paperback class-specific handbooks for 3.0 like Masters of the Wild, Tome and Blood, etc.
Our "party" will consist of myself (starting at lvl 6) and a Rogue5/Assassin1 who will be using a spiked chain. So yeah, a tiny group, hence the desire for some more versatility on my part.
So, do you think it would be better to take the TWF combat style path and fill in archery feats, or take the Archery path and fill in TWF feats? I guess the question can also be thought of like this: How many archery feats would I need to grab to be useful if I chose TWF combat style, and how many TWF feats would I need to grab to be useful if I chose Archery style? I'll be using 2 handaxes for the TWF.
I'm playing a human, so I'll have 4 feats to play with to get me to lvl 6, in addition to whichever combat style I choose.
Feats are my main question right now, but skills, spells, and whatever other suggestions would also be much appreciated.
Hello,
Hi! :D
I'll be playing a 3.5 ranger in an upcoming campaign and due to the small number of players (and personal taste, I suppose) I want him to be fairly competent at 2-weapon fighting *and* ranged combat. I know it's better to focus on one or the other, but I'm looking for the right combination of feats/skills/combat style path to make him able to hold his own.
Alrirrighty. I'll see how I can help.
The following books are available: PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, MM4, PHB2, DMG2, Heroes of Battle, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel, and all those paperback class-specific handbooks for 3.0 like Masters of the Wild, Tome and Blood, etc.
Got it! Just a little query thou. How do you exactly use the 3. splat books? What happens when there's a disagreement between the two?
Our "party" will consist of myself (starting at lvl 6) and a Rogue5/Assassin1 who will be using a spiked chain. So yeah, a tiny group, hence the desire for some more versatility on my part.
errr...
ok.
So, do you think it would be better to take the TWF combat style path and fill in archery feats, or take the Archery path and fill in TWF feats? I guess the question can also be thought of like this: How many archery feats would I need to grab to be useful if I chose TWF combat style, and how many TWF feats would I need to grab to be useful if I chose Archery style? I'll be using 2 handaxes for the TWF.
Neither, all of them, as much as you can.
Now, let's break it down:
The big bonus about the ranger's bonus feats are that you don't really need to fill in the requirements for them. So even if you have dex 11 you can still fight 2 weaponly (although it would still be better if you had some good dex). As for your intention - in archery you don't need any feats to really do well, so basically every other feat you can take will increase your effectiveness, Among them are - Greater manyshoot, Ranged disarm, Shoot on the run, Weapon focus, Woodland archer. As for TWF, you'll need a couple to make them work: namely TWF, ITWF and every other feat that helps you scale your attacks. Also, every feat you have extra will help you tremendously. Such as Flay/ Pulverize / Skewer foe, Improved buckler defence, Improved critical, Weapon focus. And personally I also go and take levels in tempest (I think thats the name of it). All 5 of them if I can. Since it helps you lower the penalties to TWF.
ALERT: having both paths create 2 problems:
- By doing the 2 dances in this story your infecting your character with the all too infamous MAD disease. That is to say that you now require more good stats than you could ever sustain. You need Str for melee, Dex for range, Wis for spells and Con for Hp. 2 too many by crowd thoughts.
- Having the TWF is usually not recommended for class without the help of additional damage output (e.g. sneak attack). Add to this the above mentioned problem (dex is considered more valuable to the ranger so Str is lower, generally) which lowers even further your damage.
3 personal options: that can be mixed.
- Order of the Bow Initiate PrC is one of the best. Not only it grants you more damage (it has something close to sneak attack) it also gives you the ability to shoot at someone that stands right in front of you (I think). Found in the complete warrior
- Just forget about TWF and instead use a 2-handed weapon. Why? first, the only feat you'll require that way is cleave. No other extremely important feat is required henceforth. Also, you need mediocre Str score, 14 is suffice (the bonus transform into +3). That way you can have super-dex and the bonus to str will be used for mighty bows and some weapons but will not drain you dry.
- There is a feat (don't remember where or name) that gives you the ability to fight with your bow as a melee weapon. Could be used, could be not.
I'm playing a human, so I'll have 4 feats to play with to get me to lvl 6, in addition to whichever combat style I choose.
Well, if you have too. Personally I love elves more. Yeah! you heard me! Elves! They got the feats, the ability, the racial sub levels and also cool weapon to boot! (elvenblade are awesome!)
Feats are my main question right now, but skills, spells, and whatever other suggestions would also be much appreciated.
2 tips for the last moment:
Check out this handboook, if you haven't already.
Also, think about doing the scout/ranger thing (there's a feat for that and a handbook somewhere around here).
Check them out.
Until next time.
BB
Melee and Ranged competence
if you must do both... try using the same weapons with Both.... thus look at THROWN WEAPONS
this way you can narrow the focus to a single type of weapon....
you will need to Multiclass......try this:
Human
Ranger 2/ Swashbuckler 1/ Fighter 2/ Master Thrower 1
Feats:
Track(ranger Bonus)
TWF(ranger Bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler bonus)
Point Blank Shot(human Bonus)
Precise Shot(fighter bonus)
Weapon Focus(Throwing Axe)(fighter bonus)
gotta go... will finish later
:D
Re: the 3.0 splatbooks, we mostly use them to generate concept ideas rather than actually using the PrCs, spells or feats. Once in awhile there may be a neat looking feat in one of those books; if it doesn't conflict with 3.5, we'll use it.
Your suggestions of Order of the Bow Initiate and Tempest were just what I was thinking. :D I guess I'm a bit confused about the Initiate's Ranged Precision, though... it's a single attack you make as a standard action; does that mean I can do it with every shot I fire as part of a full action, or is it meant to be something that can be done only once per round? Back to the books....
Ultimately, though, I think I'd like to avoid PrCs and dips because I don't want to slow down the ranger's spell progression. There are some *very* nice ranger spells in the Spell Compendium (which I forgot to mention I also have).
Which brings me to another possibility: Is it feasible to focus my feats on TWF and focus my spells on archery?
Well, here are a couple feat progressions I was toying with. This first one follows the Archery combat style and fills in some TWF:
Level 1. Point Blank Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting
2. Rapid Shot [combat style]
3. Weapon focus (handaxe)
6. Manyshot [combat style], Improved Rapid Shot
9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11. Improved Precise Shot [combat style]
12. Two-Weapon Rend
15. Penetrating Shot(?)
18. ????
The advantages of this setup are that Improved Rapid Shot negates the Rapid Shot penalties, and it allows me to be moderately ok with TWF (I think). Also the Combat Mastery ranger feat at lvl 11, Improved Precise Shot, seems very nice. But it takes awhile before I can get more damage with TWF.
This progression follows the TWF combat style path and fills in some archery feats:
Level 1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Two-Weapon Fighting [combat style]
3. Weapon Focus (handaxe)
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [combat style], Ranged Disarm
9. Rapid Shot
11. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting [combat style]
12. Manyshot
15. Improved Rapid Shot
18. Improved Critical (longbow)
Ugh. Lots of filler in this list, I think. I admit it seems harder to build a decent mid-level character with the TWF combat style as a base and adding archery feats. If someone can come up with something better, following the same general guidelines (TWF combat style, some archery thrown in), I'd be very curious to see it. My suspicion is that, in this setup, I should do away with all those Rapid Shot and Manyshot feats, as they're just giving me more chances to miss my ranged shots.
Well, I'll leave it there for now. I was intrigued by the suggestion that archery doesn't really need feats to do well... it seems true that a TWFer would be pretty feat-hungry, so maybe the goal should be to focus my feats and combat style on TWF and favored enemy feats, improved critical feats, that sort of thing... and just carry a bow and use archery-oriented spells.
EDIT: took awhile posting this, so I missed Carnivore's suggestion. Wow! Lots of stuff there. I've got my eye on ranger spells, and I'm interested in getting to the higher levels of a single class (never done that before in play), so I don't think I'd want all the multiclassing, but the suggestion of thrown weapons certainly helps by collapsing both categories into a single weapon. I'll still want a bow to be my primary ranged weapon (I'm a sucker for archery), but using throwing axes vs handaxes might be the way to go...
Suggestions, as always, are much appreciated.
First .... something to consider
1)Archery is Feat intensive.. almost exclusively.... to really do well it requires a lot of feats... as well as some dips in PrCs
2)TWF is also very feat Intensive... and few PrCs are useful for it
if you try to do Both... usually you will be average to poor in both... you will have Mediocre Combat ability that does not have the Punch to end encounters quickly
as for the Ranger Spells..... the Max they(rangers) get @20th lvl is 3@1st lvl, 3@2nd lvl, 3@3rd lvl, 3@4th lvl
why not try this:
use the Chameleon PrC... from Races of Destiny... also found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b
they are able to cast any Ranger spell and much more.... try this:
Human
Ranger 2/ Swashbuckler 1/ Fighter 2/ Master Thrower 5/ Chameleon 10
BAB +17
Attributes: 32pt buy
10 Str(10)
38 Dex(16 +5 lvls +5 Inherent +6 Item +6 Ability boon)
14 Con(14)
16 Int(16)
18 Wis(12 +6 Ability boon )
8 Cha(8)
Feats:
Track(ranger Bonus)
TWF(ranger Bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler bonus)
Point Blank Shot(human Bonus)
Precise Shot(fighter bonus)
Weapon Focus(Throwing Axe)(fighter bonus)
Quick Draw(Master Thrower bonus)
Imp Crit(any weapon you have Weapon focus)(Master thrower bonus)
Snatch Arrows(Master Thrower bonus)
1st lvl: Able Learner
3rd lvl: City Slicker
6th lvl: Rapid Shot
9th lvl: Combat Reflexes
12th lvl: Double Hit
15th lvl: Robilars Gambit
18th lvl: TW Rend
the thing to Note:
Thrown Weapons benifit from TWF and Rapid Shot... so you can throw a lot and Still Melee attack ... and with this build, if you are attacked... you get 2 attacks back @ Full BAB for each AoO, and if both hit, you also do Rending Damage.... since your Dex will be very High... you will have a Lot of AoO you can take(+28 additional Attacks at Full BAB max)
also you can cast ANY Ranger Spell, as well as any Paladin spell, and Cleric or Druid Spell up to 6th Level.... AND any ARCANE SPELL up to 6th lvl....ALL AT 20th lvl Caster!!!
Master Thrower Thrown Weapon Tricks
Defensive Throw – Avoid generating Attacks of
Opportunity with your throw for 1 round by making a
Concentration check vs. DC (10 + number of
threatening opponents).
Trip Shot – On a successful thrown weapon attack, you
can make a Trip Attack in addition to the damage.
Make a Dexterity check with a +4 bonus opposed by
your the opponent’s Strength or Dexterity check
(whichever is better). Advantages such as ‘Stability’
apply. Bonus from Feat: Improved Trip do not apply.
Weak Spot – When attacking an opponent of your size or
larger, you may make a Ranged Touch Attack
(instead of a Normal Ranged Attack), though you may
not apply your Strength modifier to the damage. You
may only take this trick as a 5th level Master Thrower.
Defensive Throw – Avoid generating Attacks of
Opportunity with your throw for 1 round by making a
Concentration check vs. DC (10 + number of
threatening opponents).
Trip Shot – On a successful thrown weapon attack, you
can make a Trip Attack in addition to the damage.
Make a Dexterity check with a +4 bonus opposed by
your the opponent’s Strength or Dexterity check
(whichever is better). Advantages such as ‘Stability’
apply. Bonus from Feat: Improved Trip do not apply.
Weak Spot – When attacking an opponent of your size or
larger, you may make a Ranged Touch Attack
(instead of a Normal Ranged Attack), though you may
not apply your Strength modifier to the damage. You
may only take this trick as a 5th level Master Thrower.
2 tips for the last moment:
Check out this handboook, if you haven't already.
Also, think about doing the scout/ranger thing (there's a feat for that and a handbook somewhere around here).
Check them out.
The problem with TWF -and- ranged tends to be the amount of damage you can put out in a single blow. Skirmish or Sneak Attack would help out. Funny, there is a feat that does exactly that. Swift Hunter
If you are looking for a simpler build:
Scout 3+, Ranger 2+, abuse Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel. Lean further on one class or the other for the speed boosts or ranger spells.
Throw in a method to full attack after a charge (or Travel Devotion) to abuse the Skirmish alongside the TWF.
I guess it might be helpful if I give some more specifics about what I'm working with. Here are a couple of feat progressions up through lvl6 (where I'll be starting the campaign):
Progression A:
1. Weapon Focus (handaxe), Point Blank Shot [human bonus feat]
2. Two-Weapon Fighting [ranger bonus]
3. Precise Shot (??)
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [ranger bonus], Dual Strike
Progression B:
1. Weapon Focus (handaxe), Point Blank Shot [human bonus feat]
2. Rapid Shot [ranger bonus]
3. Two-Weapon Fighting
6. Manyshot [ranger bonus], Improved Rapid Shot
Since I'm at Ranger6, my BAB will be +6/+1.
Here's how Progression A would work out: With TWF, Improved TWF, Weapon Focus (handaxe), and a Str bonus of +3, this should be what a full melee attack would look like with a couple of normal handaxes:
+8/+8/+3/+3/+3/-2
And, with Point Blank Shot and a Dex bonus of +3, here's what my full ranged attack would look like (if the target is within 30 feet) with a normal composite longbow:
+10/+5
On the other hand, if I chose Progression B, my melee full attack would look like this:
+8/+8/+3/+3
And my ranged attack (within 30') would look like this:
+10/+10/+5
So, I either have 6 melee attacks or 2 ranged attacks per round, or I have 4 melee attacks or 3 ranged attacks per round. With a composite longbow that could take advantage of my +3 to Str, I'd be doing a bit more damage per hit with the longbow than the handaxes (d8 vs d6; both x3 crit multiplier).
Also consider the size of the party: it's just me, my animal companion, and one other PC, a rogue5/assassin1 who will want me (or my companion) to be in melee for flanking (& hence sneak attack) purposes. Progression A allows me to put in Precise Shot, which would be helpful while shooting at an enemy flanked by the other PC and my animal companion. But Progression B, with Improved Rapid Shot, makes me more likely to hit with my bow more often.
Which of these 2 progressions seems the most effective for a character who wants to both shoot and TWF?
There is the selection of "Brutal Throw" (CAd), "Power Throw" (CAd), "Hurling Charge" (MH), which allows you to throw something -at- the enemy while getting in position to take advantage of the multiple attacks of the TWF style, but then you need Quickdraw in order to make sure you have a weapon in hand at any time.
Between the two styles you have mentioned, the first seems a little more useful. Animal companions tend to lose their "staying power" as the game progresses, and if the rogue/assassin wants a flanking buddy, you would have to take up the slack that the companion wouldn't be able to fill.
The problem with trying to fill both a melee and a ranged position in the game tends to weaken the character so they are unable to do either as well as if he had concentrated in one role.
Another thought about the weapons:
Two handed fighting w/ power attack is good. Armor spikes are a cheap way to get a two handed weapon + TWF.
A Mighty bow would also allow you to deal more damage by emphasising your strength score.
:D