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| #1julianwigginFeb 28, 2009 22:31:52 | This build starts of assuming he can use LA buyoff and took the appropriate race/template combinations to pick up the appropriate feats he needs and too maximize his bonuses to his hide check so he could ketch his opponent flatfooted. So the build uses the race “Dark(Templete) Quorbred (Templete) Whisper Gnome”. His classes are Wizard 5 + Incantrix 10 + Recaster 5. Some other notes is his 43 hide check from 23 ranks + 4 Dex Mod + 16 Racial Mod. His 36 Intelligence is from two different items and from racial mods, +5 tome of clear thought, +6 Headband of Intellect, 16 Starting Intelligence, +5 Level Progression, +4 Quorbred Mod. This character build uses meta magic feats on a relatively low level spell for devastating effect. ORB OF FIRE (Spell Compendium pg. 151) -Conjuration (Creation) [Fire] -Level: Sorcerer/wizard 4 -Components: V, S -Casting Time: 1 standard action -Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) -Effect: One orb of Fire -Duration: Instantaneous -Saving Throw: Fortitude partial; see text -Spell Resistance: No -An orb of fire about 3 inches across shoots from your palm at its target, dealing 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 15d6). You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. A creature struck by the orb takes damage and becomes dazed for 1 round. A successful Fortitude save negates the dazed effect but does not reduce the damage. We start off casting a regular 4th level spell called Orb of Fire, The primary reason to use Orb of Fire is its level to damage ratio is extremely high and its lack of a spell resistance allows for no saves to be made against it. Let’s start off by applying the Metamagics we plan on using, Maximize Spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher, Empower Spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher, Energy Admixture uses up a spell slot four levels higher, Searing Spell and Piercing Cold use up a spell slot two levels higher, Split Ray uses up a spell two levels higher and Twin Spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher. All for a grand total of a 4th level spell using up a spell slot 18 levels higher. We plan on accomplishing these goals with a couple of choice feats and class options. First off lets apply the class options that flat out drop the spell slot increase of meta magics. The second level recaster ability Sudden Metamagic allows us to apply Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, or Widen Spell to a spell five times a day for free, which of course we'll be using Maximize Spell which of course drops the spell slot increase by three and from 18 to 15. The next class abilities in line is the 7th level Incantrix abilities called Instant Metamagic which allows you to apply one metamagic feat to a spell once a day without increasing its spell slot, We'll choose the meta magic feat Twin Spell which drops our spell slot increase by four and from 15 to 11. After that we'll apply the tenth level class option the Incantrix gains called Improved Metamagic which drops all metamagic spell slot increases by one. Improved Metamagic by its self drops the spell slot increase by 5 and from 11 to 6 and last but not least we finally apply the feats we've pick up to help us deal with meta magic spell slot increases. Arcane Thesis allows up to drop the spell slot increase for one particular spell by a total of one, and Metamagic School Focus allow us to drop the spell slot increase for one particular school by one but only three times a day and when combining both feats you drop the spell by another two spell slots down from 6 to 4. Let’s calculate average damage since this is after all the fun part. We'll start off by taking base damage of Orb of Fire which is 15d6 and Maximize Spell it to make it deal 90 points of damage. Once Maximized we'll now Empower Spell it to increase its damage from 90 to 135. After empowering it we'll have to Energy Admixture the spell to give it another element (cold by the way) and doubling the damage from 135 to 270. When that’s done we now Split Ray it to jump its damage from 270 to 540 and then from 540 to 1080 when we've made it a Twin Spell. Now for our second spell of the round, This time around we can’t use the once a day Incantrix abilitie that negated the four spell slot increase that Twin Spell uses. So now the spell slot gets increase by three levels because of Twin Spell which you cant actually cast so that spell will just have to deal half that much damage, but thats it since we're gonna use the Recaster class abilitie called Metamorphic Spell(Time) to drop the casting time to one swift action granting us another 540 damage and neting us a total of 1620 damage. The only down side to all this power is it can only be performed a total of three more times a day. P.S. I forgot to tell you that the fire and ice damage thanks to Searing Spell and Piercing Cold will allways do at least half damage. Example: A mighty creature appears in front of you. You make your lore check and know that he isn’t affected by rays and is immune to fire damage, has regeneration and is know for a ridiculously high SR. You cast your God Humbling Victory Spell but now it isn’t augmented by Split Ray so it only deals half as much damage as it once did. The creature only has a 5 touch AC so it’s about as easy to hit as you in that chair right now and the spell your using doesn’t give Spell Resistance a chance to get in the way. The normal damage you would deal in this case is 540 and since you’re so smart you Energy Substitution the fire out of the spell for something more favorable so it stays that way. It looks like you've taken a sizeable blow out of the creature after only your first spell. Now its time to cast your second spell but this time around you know you have to kill it with fire damage so you don’t energy substitution out the fire aspect of the spell so this time around your spell only deals 405 damage but still drops this beast to -87(Its total was 858). After this thing is dead you spend the the next couple or round nuking this thing with strictly fire damaging spells making sure this creature never gets up again. Congragalations you just Killed a Tarrasque in the first round of combate and permanently killing it with out useing a single Wish spell. Which does off course mean that you'll have fun droping that Tarrasque in the first round of combat. |
| #2GrummanFeb 28, 2009 22:41:22 | How are you qualifying for Recaster? Does the Quorbred template let you count as a Changeling, or something? |
| #3killyFeb 28, 2009 22:59:14 | If your DM is crazy enough to allow metamagic stacking, he deserves all the damage. |
| #4true_shinkenFeb 28, 2009 23:19:25 | The tarrasque's regeneration is not ignored by any kind of damage and it needs a wish spell to prevent it from regenerating. Even then, nice build. |
| #5sofawallFeb 28, 2009 23:23:09 | 90 = maximised 7d6 = empowered energy admixture(cold) = 15d6 So, currently, we have each ray at 22d6+90 Split ray= two rays so 44d6+180 Twin spell = two spells, each of two rays, so 88d6+360, or 448-888, average damage of 668. Second spell does: 90 = maximised 7d6 = empowered energy admixture(cold) = 15d6 So, currently, we have each ray at 22d6+90 Split ray= two rays so 44d6+180 No twin due to reasons above. Second spell does 44d6+180, or 224-444, average 334. Total = 132d6+540, or 672-1332, average damage of 1002, still quite nice. Or, at least most DMs would rule that way. It specifically calls out that empower and maximise do not stack, and energy admixture would probably work the same way. As for twin and split stacking, there is no reason not to. Dear god I hope this doesn't become another metamagic stacking thread. |
| #6julianwigginMar 01, 2009 11:03:10 | How are you qualifying for Recaster? Does the Quorbred template let you count as a Changeling, or something? Your right, I can just as easily restat the race for use with a changling since the only reason for using a whisper gnome was trying to get a high hide check so i could flat floot my opponent. |
| #7julianwigginMar 01, 2009 11:04:05 | If your DM is crazy enough to allow metamagic stacking, he deserves all the damage. Is there a thread or rule that points out you cant do this or are you just saying a DM shouldnt allow it? |
| #8julianwigginMar 01, 2009 11:05:38 | The tarrasque's regeneration is not ignored by any kind of damage and it needs a wish spell to prevent it from regenerating. Even then, nice build. The tarrasque's regeneration is ignored by fire and acid like all regeneration but he happens to be immune to it. If i use searing spell to deal it to him anyways he dies. |
| #9julianwigginMar 01, 2009 11:09:12 | 90 = maximised If you dont mind where does it stat that so I can take a look. Dammit, Now I have to find that feat(might be epic) thats both maximize and empower. |
| #10jenosMar 01, 2009 11:17:26 | How are you applying Split Ray to an Orb Spell? You need to add something else in there to turn it into a ray to make it a legal target for split ray. Your math is also slightly off, as Empower only adds 26.5 damage, not 45. |
| #11julianwigginMar 01, 2009 11:43:53 | How are you applying Split Ray to an Orb Spell? You need to add something else in there to turn it into a ray to make it a legal target for split ray. Oh.. thats kinda funny. The build started off using Spellwarped Sniper to change it to a ray and from there start applying metamagics, this is actually my second attempt at this after the first time I unwittingly used it in a game(I swear the build wasnt meant to do this, at least not originally.) So I guess I'll have to tinker with the build to make my spells rays in a different way or a change out a couple of levels with spell warped sniper. No biggy, but your right. As for a loss in 18 damage Im not worried. |
| #12julianwigginMar 01, 2009 11:46:00 | If some one sees a good way to improve this build thought feats or classes(trying to stay away from items) then by all means that why I posted this here. |
| #13rparaviciniMar 01, 2009 12:54:31 | The tarrasque's regeneration is ignored by fire and acid like all regeneration but he happens to be immune to it. Since when is Regeneration ignored by fire and acid by default? Typically regen is ignored by those types, but typically != always. The tarrasque's regeneration is explicitly stated as: Regeneration (Ex) so where do you get your infos from? |
| #14taerg_norMar 01, 2009 13:03:58 | The tarrasque's regeneration is ignored by fire and acid like all regeneration but he happens to be immune to it. If i use searing spell to deal it to him anyways he dies. No, read the creature's regeneration description, plus there are many other regenerating creatures that can reg fire and acid. About Maximize and Empower not stacking i have read it a couple times in the forums, but never ever found a book that states it can't be done. Never Eever take Intensify Spell (The epic metamagic that maxes and doubles a pells damage) the 7th level adjustment is definitely not worth it, even using class abilities like Instant Metamagic wouldn't make worth wasting an epic feat for two or three times per day of using it (plus i think incanta's meta, only let u use it on metamagic feats of 4 lvl or lower SLA) About spliting the orb, as Jenos said, you can't do it, even if you were a spellwarped sniper you couldn't prepare Orb of Fire as a split spell, since at the time of preparation its not a ray spell, what you could do is if taking spellwarped sniper, use incantatrix intant metamagic ability to split while you transfor the spell into a ray spell, that would prevent you Insta Twinning, but its only a 1 lvl increase to spell lvl (Twin 4 - 1 Imp Meta -1 Arc Thesis -1 Meta school Focus) thus making the spell a 9th level one. About wayt of improving this, there are many actually, if you are taking recaster just for sudden maximize ability, then drop it, 5 lvls are not woth a Maximize Metagic Rod, Medium (which i think its like 100k). you can get some ideas here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1148577&highlight=evoker it does about 1.2k damage per round as a 15th level build, with those 5 leves it can probably be pumped to around 2k or 2.5k damage (yes the last 5 level make such diferences) |
| #15phaedrusxyMar 01, 2009 13:25:59 | Dude, you're horrificly wrong about the regeneration being ignored by fire and acid. Other than that, good build. |
| #16malkavonMar 01, 2009 13:27:39 | Well, firstly, sorcerers are far better at doing this kind of thin than wizards. General idea is Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/X 4 (I'm partial to Frost Mage for the last 4 myself, but it's not necessary). The big reasons for this are arcane spellsurge and the ability to apply metamagic on the fly. Another big reason is the Practical Metamagic feat from Races of the Dragon, which allows you to reduce the spell level adjustment of a particular metamagic feat by 1 (min. +1). With Practical Metamagic (Maximize) and Practical Metamagic (Twin), you can apply those feats at +1 and +2 spell level adjustment respectively. If your DM allows Dragon material, Easy Metamagic does the same thing and would stack, letting you reduce Twin to +1. Take both for Energy Admixture and that becomes a +1 as well. Now you can cast a twinned maximized admixed orb of fire as a 7th-level spell, thus fitting it into a greater arcane fusion with, say, a twinned maximized admixed lesser orb of fire to go with it. The other thing I'd recommend requires Magic of Incarnum, a touch of Psionics, and is moderately complex. It involves using Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight Metamagic to score 4-5 free levels of metamagic per round, which is mostly used either for uber-buffs (Persistent Spell is a +5 adjustment with Incantatrix 10) or else to cram more metamagic onto an orb and spam via greater arcane fusion. Incidentally, Spellwarp Sniper requries area spells, of which orb is not. So, no go on that one. Occular Spell, however, can convert it into a ray. And Energy Admixture does work fine with Maximize Spell. |
| #17julianwigginMar 01, 2009 14:27:28 | Since when is Regeneration ignored by fire and acid by default? Typically regen is ignored by those types, but typically != always. On page 240 of the Monster Manual 1 in 3.5 it states that the Tarrasques is immune to fire and acid. On page 314 of the same book it states in the rules of regeneration that "Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn’t go away" the rule your reading witch happens to be on page 241 reads "No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque." its summerizing so people dont have to jump though the book to figure this stuff out. Other wise why would the tarasque just so happen to have immunities these two types, any argueing and your not takeing to the intensions of the rules(thats called being a munchkin). |
| #18julianwigginMar 01, 2009 14:30:52 | No, read the creature's regeneration description, plus there are many other regenerating creatures that can reg fire and acid.QUOTE] |
| #19phaedrusxyMar 01, 2009 14:47:51 | Regeneration (Ex) A pit fiend takes normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons, and from spells or effects with the good descriptor. It's immune to fire, but only has acid resist 10. |
| #20GrummanMar 01, 2009 15:01:16 | On page 314 of the same book it states in the rules of regeneration that "Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn’t go away" "Typically" does not mean "always". Other wise why would the tarasque just so happen to have immunities these two types, Gee... because it doesn't even take subdual damage from these damage types? Shouldn't that be obvious? ...any argueing and your not takeing to the intensions of the rules(thats called being a munchkin). You're ignoring the rules, both as written and as intended, for significant personal benefit, and we're the munchkins? |
| #21sofawallMar 01, 2009 16:07:06 | About Maximize and Empower not stacking i have read it a couple times in the forums, but never ever found a book that states it can't be done. Then I recommend you start reading the Player's Handbook, specifically page 98, the first line on the page. Gosh, a question about/answered by a core book. That happens so rarely I feel special. |
| #22rparaviciniMar 02, 2009 3:58:02 | "Typically" does not mean "always". Thanks ... everything I could have said, is summed up here *g* |
| #23julianwigginMar 02, 2009 15:21:44 | Then I recommend you start reading the Player's Handbook, specifically page 98, the first line on the page. How special are you? I made the mistake of using wrong out of ignorance, While you are apparently aware where it is and still have it wrong. It states that you most definetly can do it(It even shows an example), It just doesnt work in the way used above. An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled |
| #24julianwigginMar 02, 2009 15:22:39 | Regeneration (Ex) Thank you as stated Ill take a different stance on the subject. |
| #25sofawallMar 02, 2009 18:07:13 | How special are you? I made the mistake of using wrong out of ignorance, While you are apparently aware where it is and still have it wrong. It states that you most definetly can do it(It even shows an example), It just doesnt work in the way used above.An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled And I clearly said they don't stack, not that they couldn't be used together. If you'll notice my breakdown of the damage most DMs would allow, (even though I'm not sure what the RAW is on metamagic stacking, apart from Maximize/Empower) I clearly use Empower in the way the PHB describes. EDIT: I realized that my definition of stacking may not be the usual one, what I meant was empower and maximize work on the same spell, but not on each other. Clear now? |
| #26taerg_norMar 03, 2009 10:41:08 | And I clearly said they don't stack, not that they couldn't be used together. If you'll notice my breakdown of the damage most DMs would allow, (even though I'm not sure what the RAW is on metamagic stacking, apart from Maximize/Empower) I clearly use Empower in the way the PHB describes. You clearly don't, in your damage breakdown you add 7d6 from empo when it should be 15d6 * 0.5 from empo. Plus, even this would be wrong, since you can apply metamagics in whtever order is more useful to you (anyone remembers source of this?), so it would be 15d6 base + 15d6 from Admix, all that maximized = 180, plus 30d6 * 0.5 from empowering, avg of 180 + 52 = 232 |
| #27sofawallMar 03, 2009 17:39:51 | Fine, 15d6*1.5, not 22d6. My damage is off by what, like 1? Anyway, I used the more conservative method, not allowing Admix, Maximize and Empower to effect one another. Some DMs may allow it, I don't know, but the thing is, we also don't know the RAW on it. No book that I've found (although I could have overlooked it) mentions metamagic stacking other than empower/maximize. |