Min/Max 3.5 Saves - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Skewwed Feb 22, 2012 16:31:14	..howdy howdy everybody.. ..I need some help, a friend says he has someone in his gaming group 3.5 D&D with silly saves, that this person researched online.. ..I believe he told me this persons saves are in excess of +30 - all of them at level 16, and I can not for the love of gawd, figure out how he did it.. ..legally ..So, I guess my question is.. ..what are the most broken saves you can come up with at level 16, with no regard to anything else - simply min/maxing your saves using 18's in whatever stats you need.. ..and it is an evil character
#2 deoxhydroxinate Feb 22, 2012 16:55:12	Paladin of Tyranny, Hexblade, Blackguard to name a few starts. I think there's a thread around here...
#3 draco1119 Feb 22, 2012 16:55:41	..howdy howdy everybody.. ..I need some help, a friend says he has someone in his gaming group 3.5 D&D with silly saves, that this person researched online.. ..I believe he told me this persons saves are in excess of +30 - all of them at level 16, and I can not for the love of gawd, figure out how he did it.. ..legally ..So, I guess my question is.. ..what are the most broken saves you can come up with at level 16, with no regard to anything else - simply min/maxing your saves using 18's in whatever stats you need.. ..and it is an evil character It's really not that hard. Take one level in every class you can think of with all good saves (Monk and Favored Soul come to mind), then start cherry-picking the rest. It also shouldn't be hard to get a Cloak of Resistance +5 by 16th level, along with stat-boosting items. If this person was truly trying to boost their saves to the moon... I could have done it better.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 22, 2012 17:30:50	X Stat To Y Bonus, likely focusing on Charisma-to-save effects, plus multiclassing up the yin-yang for the highest base saves possible. It's not all that hard, though you'd have a hard time getting the character to matter in other areas. (The second link isn't even trying for max saves and still manages things on that order.) You can even reduce MAD through X Stat To Y Bonus by looking for replacement effects (Steadfast Determination, Force of Personality, etc.), which let you dump an ability score you aren't using but still keep the save up. The only questions here are whether "level 16" means "ECL 16" or "16 HD" (the former is a touch trickier, the latter is trivial (since you can slap on templates like paragon without caring) and whether or not that includes buff spell effects and/or equipment.
#5 Maat_Mons Feb 22, 2012 18:22:58	This build has base saves of fort 10, ref 8, and will 26 at level 16 while also having 9th-level spells. Amusingly, it only has base attack bonus 1. It wasn't actually meant to be played, but it would do alright at high level. These items can get you +23 to saves. Show Cloak of Resistance: +1 to +5 resistance bonus saves 1,000 gp to 25,000 gp, shoulders slot Dungeon Master's Guide 253 Luck Blade: +1 luck bonus saves, reroll save 1/day 22,060 gp (0 wishes), slotless Dungeon Master's Guide 227 Notes: +2 short sword Standard of Heroism: +2 morale bonus saves (allies, including bearer) 40,000 gp, attached to polearm Complete Warrior 136 Notes: +2 morale bonus attacks & skill checks (allies, including bearer) Empyreal: +0 to +5 sacred bonus saves (transfer armor enhancement bonus) +2, armor/shield ability Book of Exalted Deeds 112 Notes: Evil user is sickened Resilient: +0 to +5 untyped bonus to fort, ref, or will saves (immediate action, 1 round, transfer armor enhancement bonus) +1, armor/shield ability The Forge of War 118 Spellstrike: +0 to +5 untyped bonus saves vs. spells & spell-like abilities (transfer weapon enhancement bonus) +1, weapon ability Magic Item Compendium 44
#6 Skewwed Feb 22, 2012 18:41:49	X Stat To Y Bonus ..oh-y-thankyou..
#7 aelryinth Feb 24, 2012 19:36:29	He doesn't even have to be that radical. He could have a SPIRAL ring (Sacred, Profane, Insight, Resistance and Luck) of +2 to each for less then the cost of a +5 ring, and net +10 to all saves. OR a SIR LAMP ring, and throw in Morale to the mix. Now, if your friend is using PATHFINDER, well, SUperstitious Barbarian Humans can end up with +13 to all saves against magic, BEFORE other mods. ==Aelryinth
#8 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 24, 2012 20:58:16	He could have a SPIRAL ring (Sacred, Profane, Insight, Resistance and Luck) of +2 to each for less then the cost of a +5 ring, and net +10 to all saves. OR a SIR LAMP ring, and throw in Morale to the mix. Or a ring with as many different +1 circumstance bonuses as he can make up.
#9 aelryinth Feb 24, 2012 22:03:08	Since Circumstance bonuses are generally allocated by the DM, I never use them. And since they would all have the same source (same ring), they wouldn't stack. But, yeah, there's lots of other bonuses that could be used. I just kept with the basics everyone knows. ===Aelryinth
#10 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 24, 2012 22:59:51	But, yeah, there's lots of other bonuses that could be used. I just kept with the basics everyone knows. Competence bonuses could also be included. Since Circumstance bonuses are generally allocated by the DM, I never use them. And since they would all have the same source (same ring), they wouldn't stack. A variety of completely mundane items grant circumstance bonuses (masterwork tools, silk rope, and so on), while custom magical items are already subject to DM adjudication. The same source part is about the source of the circumstance, not the source item in question (which is only truly important for untyped bonuses, since most of the other types already don't stack with themselves); a magic item applies certain conditional factors that serve as the source of a circumstance bonus. For example, a circumstance bonus due to Having Blue Hair (or whatever you like) doesn't stack with another circumstance bonus due to Having Blue Hair. It would, however, stack with a circumstance bonus due to wearing Too Many Bangles, even if they're granted by the same item, just as a morale bonus and a sacred bonus granted by the same item stack. Obviously, more credible sources of a beneficial circumstance can be created, and it is implied that they should be specific to a certain circumstance (but without scope, and therefore meaningless, since "making a saving throw" is a circumstance), but their main benefit is that there's no upper limit on the number of different flavours. If you've got a DM who's okay with having a sacred and profane bonus on the same item, having more than one different circumstance bonus doesn't strain the established levels of credibility too far.
#11 aelryinth Feb 25, 2012 13:03:36	Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance. And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there. ==Aelryinth
#12 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 25, 2012 22:02:00	And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there. Most of those are comparatively uncommon, while competence is the one of the basics (being in the SRD, which is as basic as you can get). Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance. To grant a circumstance bonus, the ring needs to produce some kind of conditional benefit, in the same way that armour bonuses are granted by a magic item producing the equivalent of protective layering, an insight bonus is granted by making you more aware, or a luck bonus is granted by making you more fortunate. Items grant those bonuses because of some effect they produce. In the case of circumstance bonuses, the item needs to make the conditions somehow better for whatever you're doing; if you have two different circumstance bonuses on one item, it means that the item is making the task easier in two different ways. The text describing circumstance bonuses talks about them not stacking if they come from "essentially the same source". That word "essentially" is important here, because if it was simply talking about the source in terms of a source item generating it, it would simply say "the same source", which is instantly able to be determined without any ambiguity. However, circumstance bonuses could come from two completely different source items, but still fail to stack if they apply their benefit for the same reason. For example, a magic belt could grant a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks by coating its wearer with a layer of oil to make them slippery. It wouldn't stack with any other circumstance bonus due to slipperiness (using a layer of oil or not) because the condition that serves as the source of the bonus is essentially the same. It would, however, stack with a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks granted by making your limbs more flexible, even if that benefit was enchanted into the same item (a belt that made you both more slippery and more flexible), because being more flexible is a different source circumstance to being more slippery.
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 25, 2012 22:12:15	Of course, this sets aside the other issue, that the "SPIRAL" ring and similar items use the item creation guidelines, which explictly say they're not intended for final pricing. For instance, if an item is supposed to provide a +5 bonus to AC, it should be similarly priced to other items that do similar things (balancing for bonus types). This suggests that a SPIRAL ring for saves, with +1 on each bonus type should have about the same cost as a +6 saving throw bonus item. There aren't any existing items that do that, but there are cloaks of resistance +5 for 25k; the ring should cost more than that by its final result alone.
#14 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 26, 2012 0:12:34	Oh, true; the theoretical potential of endless circumstance bonuses, or the easier-to-justify multimode bonuses are different to what the DM might actually permit in their game. Though it is, sort of, the same issue as placing those bonuses on all different items, which far fewer DMs are likely to raise objections against since any evaluation of an item's benefit compared to its cost will only be made for that particular item rather than the overall effect on the character.
#15 hinato Feb 26, 2012 9:29:54	Other unnamed sources of bonus saves would be a pale green ioun stone (awesome item in my opinion) and a wand of major resistance (cheap alternative if you have UMD).
#16 aelryinth Feb 26, 2012 11:43:04	And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there. Most of those are comparatively uncommon, while competence is the one of the basics (being in the SRD, which is as basic as you can get). Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance. To grant a circumstance bonus, the ring needs to produce some kind of conditional benefit, in the same way that armour bonuses are granted by a magic item producing the equivalent of protective layering, an insight bonus is granted by making you more aware, or a luck bonus is granted by making you more fortunate. Items grant those bonuses because of some effect they produce. In the case of circumstance bonuses, the item needs to make the conditions somehow better for whatever you're doing; if you have two different circumstance bonuses on one item, it means that the item is making the task easier in two different ways. The text describing circumstance bonuses talks about them not stacking if they come from "essentially the same source". That word "essentially" is important here, because if it was simply talking about the source in terms of a source item generating it, it would simply say "the same source", which is instantly able to be determined without any ambiguity. However, circumstance bonuses could come from two completely different source items, but still fail to stack if they apply their benefit for the same reason. For example, a magic belt could grant a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks by coating its wearer with a layer of oil to make them slippery. It wouldn't stack with any other circumstance bonus due to slipperiness (using a layer of oil or not) because the condition that serves as the source of the bonus is essentially the same. It would, however, stack with a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks granted by making your limbs more flexible, even if that benefit was enchanted into the same item (a belt that made you both more slippery and more flexible), because being more flexible is a different source circumstance to being more slippery. but you also have to keep in mind that spellcasters do this kind of stacking stuff ALL THE TIME...it's how they can generate a high AC, using modifiers that aren't found on magic items, or are prohibitively expensive on magic items. If you're truly going to balance something like this out, then you need to deny the bonuses via cast spells, too...by changing the bonuses to something that doesn't stack. Otherwise, what you get is the 'non-casters don't get nice things' argument. "The ring...coats in oil...thereby granting you a +2 Circumstance bonus." 'Essentially' is actually MORE inclusive then a pure 'same source' wording, because 'essentially' the ring is giving you the bonus via two different methods. The source is essentially the same, even if the mechanism is different. So, no, multiple circumstance bonuses don't work, because essentially the source for both is the same, even if the delivery mechanism is working differently. While you could argue 'Source' for your two bonuses as 'double-jointed' and 'oil-covered' as being two different sources, 'essentially' they actually come from the same source, despite the descriptive text, and would not stack. ==Bob Drouin
#17 Slagger_the_Chuul Feb 26, 2012 22:07:00	"The ring...coats in oil...thereby granting you a +2 Circumstance bonus." 'Essentially' is actually MORE inclusive then a pure 'same source' wording, because 'essentially' the ring is giving you the bonus via two different methods. The source is essentially the same, even if the mechanism is different. So, no, multiple circumstance bonuses don't work, because essentially the source for both is the same, even if the delivery mechanism is working differently. While you could argue 'Source' for your two bonuses as 'double-jointed' and 'oil-covered' as being two different sources, 'essentially' they actually come from the same source, despite the descriptive text, and would not stack. "Essentially" relates to things "of the same essence", or in other words, things of the same basic nature or kind. It's not more or less inclusive, it just describes the type of source to which they're referring. Because one (in the example) is due to slipperiness and the other flexibility, the nature of those source conditions is different and they are essentially different. If they had said simply "the same source", you would have to incorporate the possibility that something could be operating in two essentially different ways and still be the source of both (as the hypothetical belt of slipperiness and flexibility does; two different essences of operation on one item). By including "essentially" the sentence establishes that the bonuses could stack if they come from sources whose essence or nature is different (as is the case with slipperiness being essentially different to flexibility), but don't stack if the essence of the source is the same. The use of "essentially" shows us that the sources are differentiated by their essential natures, not merely by whether or not they are being produced by the same magical item.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Skewwed

Feb 22, 2012 16:31:14

..howdy howdy everybody..

..I need some help, a friend says he has someone in his gaming group 3.5 D&D with silly saves, that this person researched online.. ..I believe he told me this persons saves are in excess of +30 - all of them at level 16, and I can not for the love of gawd, figure out how he did it.. ..legally

..So, I guess my question is.. ..what are the most broken saves you can come up with at level 16, with no regard to anything else - simply min/maxing your saves using 18's in whatever stats you need.. ..and it is an evil character

deoxhydroxinate

Feb 22, 2012 16:55:12

Paladin of Tyranny, Hexblade, Blackguard to name a few starts. I think there's a thread around here...

draco1119

Feb 22, 2012 16:55:41

..howdy howdy everybody..

..I need some help, a friend says he has someone in his gaming group 3.5 D&D with silly saves, that this person researched online.. ..I believe he told me this persons saves are in excess of +30 - all of them at level 16, and I can not for the love of gawd, figure out how he did it.. ..legally

..So, I guess my question is.. ..what are the most broken saves you can come up with at level 16, with no regard to anything else - simply min/maxing your saves using 18's in whatever stats you need.. ..and it is an evil character

It's really not that hard. Take one level in every class you can think of with all good saves (Monk and Favored Soul come to mind), then start cherry-picking the rest. It also shouldn't be hard to get a Cloak of Resistance +5 by 16th level, along with stat-boosting items. If this person was truly trying to boost their saves to the moon... I could have done it better.

Tempest_Stormwind

Feb 22, 2012 17:30:50

X Stat To Y Bonus, likely focusing on Charisma-to-save effects, plus multiclassing up the yin-yang for the highest base saves possible. It's not all that hard, though you'd have a hard time getting the character to matter in other areas. (The second link isn't even trying for max saves and still manages things on that order.)

You can even reduce MAD through X Stat To Y Bonus by looking for replacement effects (Steadfast Determination, Force of Personality, etc.), which let you dump an ability score you aren't using but still keep the save up.

The only questions here are whether "level 16" means "ECL 16" or "16 HD" (the former is a touch trickier, the latter is trivial (since you can slap on templates like paragon without caring) and whether or not that includes buff spell effects and/or equipment.

Maat_Mons

Feb 22, 2012 18:22:58

This build has base saves of fort 10, ref 8, and will 26 at level 16 while also having 9th-level spells. Amusingly, it only has base attack bonus 1. It wasn't actually meant to be played, but it would do alright at high level.

These items can get you +23 to saves.

Show

Cloak of Resistance:
+1 to +5 resistance bonus saves
1,000 gp to 25,000 gp, shoulders slot
Dungeon Master's Guide 253

Luck Blade:
+1 luck bonus saves, reroll save 1/day
22,060 gp (0 wishes), slotless
Dungeon Master's Guide 227
Notes: +2 short sword

Standard of Heroism:
+2 morale bonus saves (allies, including bearer)
40,000 gp, attached to polearm
Complete Warrior 136
Notes: +2 morale bonus attacks & skill checks (allies, including bearer)

Empyreal:
+0 to +5 sacred bonus saves (transfer armor enhancement bonus)
+2, armor/shield ability
Book of Exalted Deeds 112
Notes: Evil user is sickened

Resilient:
+0 to +5 untyped bonus to fort, ref, or will saves (immediate action, 1 round, transfer armor enhancement bonus)
+1, armor/shield ability
The Forge of War 118

Spellstrike:
+0 to +5 untyped bonus saves vs. spells & spell-like abilities (transfer weapon enhancement bonus)
+1, weapon ability
Magic Item Compendium 44

Skewwed

Feb 22, 2012 18:41:49

X Stat To Y Bonus

..oh-y-thankyou..

aelryinth

Feb 24, 2012 19:36:29

He doesn't even have to be that radical.

He could have a SPIRAL ring (Sacred, Profane, Insight, Resistance and Luck) of +2 to each for less then the cost of a +5 ring, and net +10 to all saves. OR a SIR LAMP ring, and throw in Morale to the mix.

Now, if your friend is using PATHFINDER, well, SUperstitious Barbarian Humans can end up with +13 to all saves against magic, BEFORE other mods.

==Aelryinth

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 24, 2012 20:58:16

He could have a SPIRAL ring (Sacred, Profane, Insight, Resistance and Luck) of +2 to each for less then the cost of a +5 ring, and net +10 to all saves. OR a SIR LAMP ring, and throw in Morale to the mix.

Or a ring with as many different +1 circumstance bonuses as he can make up.

aelryinth

Feb 24, 2012 22:03:08

Since Circumstance bonuses are generally allocated by the DM, I never use them. And since they would all have the same source (same ring), they wouldn't stack.

But, yeah, there's lots of other bonuses that could be used. I just kept with the basics everyone knows.

===Aelryinth

#10

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 24, 2012 22:59:51

But, yeah, there's lots of other bonuses that could be used. I just kept with the basics everyone knows.

Competence bonuses could also be included.

Since Circumstance bonuses are generally allocated by the DM, I never use them. And since they would all have the same source (same ring), they wouldn't stack.

A variety of completely mundane items grant circumstance bonuses (masterwork tools, silk rope, and so on), while custom magical items are already subject to DM adjudication. The same source part is about the source of the circumstance, not the source item in question (which is only truly important for untyped bonuses, since most of the other types already don't stack with themselves); a magic item applies certain conditional factors that serve as the source of a circumstance bonus.

For example, a circumstance bonus due to Having Blue Hair (or whatever you like) doesn't stack with another circumstance bonus due to Having Blue Hair. It would, however, stack with a circumstance bonus due to wearing Too Many Bangles, even if they're granted by the same item, just as a morale bonus and a sacred bonus granted by the same item stack.

Obviously, more credible sources of a beneficial circumstance can be created, and it is implied that they should be specific to a certain circumstance (but without scope, and therefore meaningless, since "making a saving throw" is a circumstance), but their main benefit is that there's no upper limit on the number of different flavours. If you've got a DM who's okay with having a sacred and profane bonus on the same item, having more than one different circumstance bonus doesn't strain the established levels of credibility too far.

#11

aelryinth

Feb 25, 2012 13:03:36

Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance.

And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there.

==Aelryinth

#12

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 25, 2012 22:02:00

And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there.

Most of those are comparatively uncommon, while competence is the one of the basics (being in the SRD, which is as basic as you can get).

Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance.

To grant a circumstance bonus, the ring needs to produce some kind of conditional benefit, in the same way that armour bonuses are granted by a magic item producing the equivalent of protective layering, an insight bonus is granted by making you more aware, or a luck bonus is granted by making you more fortunate. Items grant those bonuses because of some effect they produce. In the case of circumstance bonuses, the item needs to make the conditions somehow better for whatever you're doing; if you have two different circumstance bonuses on one item, it means that the item is making the task easier in two different ways.

The text describing circumstance bonuses talks about them not stacking if they come from "essentially the same source". That word "essentially" is important here, because if it was simply talking about the source in terms of a source item generating it, it would simply say "the same source", which is instantly able to be determined without any ambiguity. However, circumstance bonuses could come from two completely different source items, but still fail to stack if they apply their benefit for the same reason.

For example, a magic belt could grant a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks by coating its wearer with a layer of oil to make them slippery. It wouldn't stack with any other circumstance bonus due to slipperiness (using a layer of oil or not) because the condition that serves as the source of the bonus is essentially the same. It would, however, stack with a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks granted by making your limbs more flexible, even if that benefit was enchanted into the same item (a belt that made you both more slippery and more flexible), because being more flexible is a different source circumstance to being more slippery.

#13

Tempest_Stormwind

Feb 25, 2012 22:12:15

Of course, this sets aside the other issue, that the "SPIRAL" ring and similar items use the item creation guidelines, which explictly say they're not intended for final pricing. For instance, if an item is supposed to provide a +5 bonus to AC, it should be similarly priced to other items that do similar things (balancing for bonus types). This suggests that a SPIRAL ring for saves, with +1 on each bonus type should have about the same cost as a +6 saving throw bonus item. There aren't any existing items that do that, but there are cloaks of resistance +5 for 25k; the ring should cost more than that by its final result alone.

#14

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 26, 2012 0:12:34

Oh, true; the theoretical potential of endless circumstance bonuses, or the easier-to-justify multimode bonuses are different to what the DM might actually permit in their game. Though it is, sort of, the same issue as placing those bonuses on all different items, which far fewer DMs are likely to raise objections against since any evaluation of an item's benefit compared to its cost will only be made for that particular item rather than the overall effect on the character.

#15

hinato

Feb 26, 2012 9:29:54

Other unnamed sources of bonus saves would be a pale green ioun stone (awesome item in my opinion) and a wand of major resistance (cheap alternative if you have UMD).

#16

aelryinth

Feb 26, 2012 11:43:04

And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there.

Most of those are comparatively uncommon, while competence is the one of the basics (being in the SRD, which is as basic as you can get).
Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance.

To grant a circumstance bonus, the ring needs to produce some kind of conditional benefit, in the same way that armour bonuses are granted by a magic item producing the equivalent of protective layering, an insight bonus is granted by making you more aware, or a luck bonus is granted by making you more fortunate. Items grant those bonuses because of some effect they produce. In the case of circumstance bonuses, the item needs to make the conditions somehow better for whatever you're doing; if you have two different circumstance bonuses on one item, it means that the item is making the task easier in two different ways.

The text describing circumstance bonuses talks about them not stacking if they come from "essentially the same source". That word "essentially" is important here, because if it was simply talking about the source in terms of a source item generating it, it would simply say "the same source", which is instantly able to be determined without any ambiguity. However, circumstance bonuses could come from two completely different source items, but still fail to stack if they apply their benefit for the same reason.

For example, a magic belt could grant a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks by coating its wearer with a layer of oil to make them slippery. It wouldn't stack with any other circumstance bonus due to slipperiness (using a layer of oil or not) because the condition that serves as the source of the bonus is essentially the same. It would, however, stack with a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks granted by making your limbs more flexible, even if that benefit was enchanted into the same item (a belt that made you both more slippery and more flexible), because being more flexible is a different source circumstance to being more slippery.

but you also have to keep in mind that spellcasters do this kind of stacking stuff ALL THE TIME...it's how they can generate a high AC, using modifiers that aren't found on magic items, or are prohibitively expensive on magic items.

If you're truly going to balance something like this out, then you need to deny the bonuses via cast spells, too...by changing the bonuses to something that doesn't stack. Otherwise, what you get is the 'non-casters don't get nice things' argument.

"The ring...coats in oil...thereby granting you a +2 Circumstance bonus." 'Essentially' is actually MORE inclusive then a pure 'same source' wording, because 'essentially' the ring is giving you the bonus via two different methods. The source is essentially the same, even if the mechanism is different. So, no, multiple circumstance bonuses don't work, because essentially the source for both is the same, even if the delivery mechanism is working differently. While you could argue 'Source' for your two bonuses as 'double-jointed' and 'oil-covered' as being two different sources, 'essentially' they actually come from the same source, despite the descriptive text, and would not stack.

==Bob Drouin

#17

Slagger_the_Chuul

Feb 26, 2012 22:07:00

"The ring...coats in oil...thereby granting you a +2 Circumstance bonus." 'Essentially' is actually MORE inclusive then a pure 'same source' wording, because 'essentially' the ring is giving you the bonus via two different methods. The source is essentially the same, even if the mechanism is different. So, no, multiple circumstance bonuses don't work, because essentially the source for both is the same, even if the delivery mechanism is working differently. While you could argue 'Source' for your two bonuses as 'double-jointed' and 'oil-covered' as being two different sources, 'essentially' they actually come from the same source, despite the descriptive text, and would not stack.

"Essentially" relates to things "of the same essence", or in other words, things of the same basic nature or kind. It's not more or less inclusive, it just describes the type of source to which they're referring. Because one (in the example) is due to slipperiness and the other flexibility, the nature of those source conditions is different and they are essentially different.

If they had said simply "the same source", you would have to incorporate the possibility that something could be operating in two essentially different ways and still be the source of both (as the hypothetical belt of slipperiness and flexibility does; two different essences of operation on one item). By including "essentially" the sentence establishes that the bonuses could stack if they come from sources whose essence or nature is different (as is the case with slipperiness being essentially different to flexibility), but don't stack if the essence of the source is the same.

The use of "essentially" shows us that the sources are differentiated by their essential natures, not merely by whether or not they are being produced by the same magical item.