Min/Maxing a Healing Class - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 BigDK Oct 10, 2013 0:22:38	I do hope I'm posting this in the right spot, if not please correct me. Also for DnD 3.5 So I found out yesterday that one of the games my friends are just starting up is short a healer and I was asked to step in. I've done scary things with rogues, tanks, and casters, and I normally limit myself to one of those three while playing 3.5 and never have I really tried a healing role. Of course, I'm aware of the Favored Soul and the Cleric, I've even helped with some of those builds before, but I'm looking for something different then the simple stand in the back, buff and heal and I want to make it Efficient and Effective. I love the idea of the Dragon Shaman, especially the Healing Aura and that was one of my considerations but I am posting here because I have until Monday to have the Character built and not the usual amount of time I like to plan out and theorycraft different characters. So I'm asking for help in choosing and then min/maxing a healing character for 3.5 to make it interesting but more effective, yet different then the standard healing class. I also thank any help in advance.
#2 VorpalBunny Oct 10, 2013 9:23:29	Before we can really dive in: 0) Read this http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710 1) What books are allowed, is Dragon Material Allowed, etc? 2) Are there any house rules? 3) What level is the party? 4) What is the current party composition? VB
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 10, 2013 10:22:53	Seconding everything Vorpal Bunny wrote. Chances are very, very good that the best healer is someone who kills the enemy faster. As I usually advise, the single most important resource in 3.5 is available actions - hit points and conditions really only matter to the extent they impair your freedom to act.
#4 BigDK Oct 10, 2013 18:59:03	Starting at Level 2. Starting Stats is the 8,9,10,11,12,13 House Rules are almost decided and set on a case by case baisis. I'm not allowed anything too ridiculus. ((Can't stack feats that say the same thing, etc.)) The Current Comp is Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, and a Paragon who is taking those levels before deciding what he wants to be. We're allowed any and every book so long as it is a book. No pulling custom classes off DnD wiki, etc. It has to be done with a book and able to at least point to which book things come from. I also talked with the DM earlier today, and I spoke of a Dragonborn Dragonshaman, and so far have come to an agreement with that as possible. But I'm also open to anything else I can find for such a thing. Only requirement is that it has to be a good aligned character. And I know I'm skipping back and forth, but I've looked over the link, and I'm liking what I'm seeing and will be trying to barter or buy a lot of what I see, but I'm only really being allowed 300g or so to start with. Anything else will have to be bartered from there.
#5 VorpalBunny Oct 10, 2013 20:28:48	Those stats are brutally aweful, are those set stats, did you roll them, or are you actually using something like 15pb? Taking those stats into consideration, I'd play a Druid, so you can at least replace your physical ability scores once (if) you hit 6th. Until then, your Animal companion is going to be your main strength, followed by summons. Your spell DC's will be too low to use spells that require a save, so other than summons, use buffs, or spells that don't allow saves. VB
#6 BigDK Oct 10, 2013 21:09:58	It's set, we can move them to where we want, but that's the stats on it. I went Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn to make them a little better, but they're still hard stats to work with. With that particular racial build, I ended up with -2 Dex, 2 Con, 2 Wis, 2 Cha so it's not quite as bad. But still, that's also why I keep thinking the Dragonshaman's fast heal aura would probably be one of the most beneficial things I can think of to keep the party from dying.
#7 VorpalBunny Oct 11, 2013 8:36:08	Generally though, you’d rather succeeded at encounters rather than simply “not die”, thus the link I initially sent you. While the Dragon Shaman fast healing aura DOES give you a decent supply of free healing, its not enough to win an encounter, and, frankly, the rest of your party isn’t choosing anything particularly encounter-ending either. Someone will need to step up, and sense you still need to choose something to build (and you’re the one asking for advice) that someone is likely you.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 11, 2013 9:14:38	Druid would work, but may also be overkill. With a party that heavily focused on melee, you could possibly heal and stay in their tier as an Inspire Courage bard. Use Healing Hymn and Cure Minor Wounds would restore 6 HP for a cantrip if needed,freeing up other spells for things like Harmony and Inspirational Boost (ideally you want these on wands, but you're kind of low budget - your DM gave you no money on top of awful ability scores.) Picking up Song of the Heart at 3rd gives you +4 Inspire Courage at level 3, meaning your teammates might actually have the killing power they need. If BoED is on the table you can even go for early access to Words of Creation, doubling your Inspire bonuses - which will compound, since they'll apply to all of your allies as well as you. Finally, if you're dragonblooded yourself, you can learn the Vigor aura you want through Draconic Aura, and possibly look into Dragonfire Inspiration. Try to get that in Sonic if possible; bards have some fun spells that make sonic even deadlier, such as Creaking Cacophony. Basically, I see a DM who made rules for a weak campaign and a party of weak characters; rather than introduce a potentially overpowering single character, I think it would be wiser to play a lower tier class that can make everyone else overcome these party wide limitations. (Sorry for the solid text block; I'm mobile and the mobile site doesn't register line breaks.)
(Reply to #8) VorpalBunny	T_S, as always, has great points, but unless your DM is planning on giving you guys ways to boost your stats, you're probably never going to meet the prerequisites for Wods of Creation, as he'd (assuming putting stat priority as Cha>Int>Con>Dex>Wis>Str) need to boost his Charisma twice, and Int three times. VB
#10 BigDK Oct 11, 2013 10:02:03	Hmm, I'll look into both playing a Druid and a Bard, I haven't done much research on those particular classes, I also don't mind overkill, as that's kinda what I was trying to go for. The reason the DM gives us such low stats, is because several people in the party have a general idea on how to stack a couple of feats, pop a power attack and do major damage making it harder for him to throw things against us. The reason for the low gold, is because the dungeon we're going into, ((The World's Largest Dungeon)) throws loot around like candy. I've ran through it before and it's crazy in the amount of +1 Swords that went to party treasure and such. The only issue is the party I'm dealing with, from previous experience, has a lack of common sense. I can tell from personal experience they love splitting up in the big bad's dungeon, and just keep going till they're on the brink of death regardless. Meanwhile, I'm going to read both handbooks on Druid and Bard to take those things into consideration.
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 11, 2013 10:27:54	Derp, yes, oops on WOC's ability requirements. I think that in a game this weak though it might not be needed. +4 at 3rd is plenty strong if your best possible ability mod (13 on a +4 stat race) is only +3. Also: bard handbook http://dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/08/bards-handbook.html?m=1 and Inspire Courage handbook http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ldos4heufj95crl1lslfk2bjo1&topic=9830.0 should give you plenty of info. EDIT Wait, World's Longest Dungeon? Sure there is a lot of loot. But next to none of it will be ideal for your characters. I'd rather have a +2 sword than a third extra +1 sword (and I'd very much like a chance to use item creation feats!). You'll need to optimize for stamina without relying on gear, which is a very different proposition than optimizing a healer. Thankfully there's not much per-day stuff on the rest of your party, at least.
#12 BigDK Oct 11, 2013 14:06:20	So, Bard seems to be the way to go for what I intend to do. I'm going to read through it as much as I can to see what I can find and learn from it. Thanks for the direction, and any further advice and such is going to be much appreciated.
#13 BigDK Oct 11, 2013 16:17:57	Of course, I just talked with some of the people there. The Fighter's leaving as the player got shifted to second shift, leaving just the Paladin, Rogue, and Paragon. I also found out who was playing what. The Rogue I know is compitent, though he hasn't done that sort of role before, he's capable but he's used to Melee roles. The Paladin I question as semi compitent at best. I know the player and they are all about flavor, and not so much about function. And finally the Paragon, the player has a habit of making healing types, but I am not sure if he will or not. So while the bard may be my best choice still, I should be changing my goal to "What will benefit the party most?"
#14 Andarious-Rosethorn Oct 16, 2013 17:36:00	You should consider giving your party Paladin a nudge to look at Crusader, it's like Paladin with a lot less fail in most ways. The Rogue, there is no direct cure, there are only upgrades really. The Paragon? I'm not really sure what his end game is, but it probably isn't a strong one. Your own character if you play a Bard as Tempest suggests will not only carry the party melee but help pick up the pieces after. Additionally, a solid Bard like this will bring two weapon fighters and archers into the realm of plausability. Usually these builds fail all over the place when put up against a simple Greatsword+Power Attack fighter, whom will also be made generally more devastating by your Bard's inspiration.
#15 Christof_Romulus Nov 16, 2013 15:53:31	You can be a healing bard, which I believe has been suggested. Bards, when properly made (Hymn of Healing in the place of Fascinate) can end up healing far better than anyone would expect. Also, if possible suppliment your healing with a Healing Belt, just because that item simply has got to be priced incorrectly.
#16 Slagger_the_Chuul Nov 16, 2013 16:13:17	As has been mentioned recently in a separate thread, the Complete Champion errata for Healing Hymn actually makes it almost useless for most spells (because it's restricted by the caster level limits of curing spells; for example, it can't push a cure light wounds spell past its normal 1d8+5 limit). And somewhat stupidly, there doesn't appear to be a comparable substitution for the suggestion or mass suggestion bardic music abilities, so if you take Healing Hymn, you're undermining those abilities by forcing them to rely on other means of fascinating creatures (typically spells). Healing Hymn in particular is, unfortunately, a bad deal.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

BigDK

Oct 10, 2013 0:22:38

I do hope I'm posting this in the right spot, if not please correct me. Also for DnD 3.5

So I found out yesterday that one of the games my friends are just starting up is short a healer and I was asked to step in. I've done scary things with rogues, tanks, and casters, and I normally limit myself to one of those three while playing 3.5 and never have I really tried a healing role. Of course, I'm aware of the Favored Soul and the Cleric, I've even helped with some of those builds before, but I'm looking for something different then the simple stand in the back, buff and heal and I want to make it Efficient and Effective.

I love the idea of the Dragon Shaman, especially the Healing Aura and that was one of my considerations but I am posting here because I have until Monday to have the Character built and not the usual amount of time I like to plan out and theorycraft different characters.

So I'm asking for help in choosing and then min/maxing a healing character for 3.5 to make it interesting but more effective, yet different then the standard healing class. I also thank any help in advance.

VorpalBunny

Oct 10, 2013 9:23:29

Before we can really dive in:

0) Read this http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710

1) What books are allowed, is Dragon Material Allowed, etc?

2) Are there any house rules?

3) What level is the party?

4) What is the current party composition?

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 10, 2013 10:22:53

Seconding everything Vorpal Bunny wrote. Chances are very, very good that the best healer is someone who kills the enemy faster. As I usually advise, the single most important resource in 3.5 is available actions - hit points and conditions really only matter to the extent they impair your freedom to act.

BigDK

Oct 10, 2013 18:59:03

Starting at Level 2.

Starting Stats is the 8,9,10,11,12,13

House Rules are almost decided and set on a case by case baisis. I'm not allowed anything too ridiculus. ((Can't stack feats that say the same thing, etc.))

The Current Comp is Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, and a Paragon who is taking those levels before deciding what he wants to be.

We're allowed any and every book so long as it is a book. No pulling custom classes off DnD wiki, etc. It has to be done with a book and able to at least point to which book things come from.

I also talked with the DM earlier today, and I spoke of a Dragonborn Dragonshaman, and so far have come to an agreement with that as possible. But I'm also open to anything else I can find for such a thing. Only requirement is that it has to be a good aligned character.

And I know I'm skipping back and forth, but I've looked over the link, and I'm liking what I'm seeing and will be trying to barter or buy a lot of what I see, but I'm only really being allowed 300g or so to start with. Anything else will have to be bartered from there.

VorpalBunny

Oct 10, 2013 20:28:48

Those stats are brutally aweful, are those set stats, did you roll them, or are you actually using something like 15pb?

Taking those stats into consideration, I'd play a Druid, so you can at least replace your physical ability scores once (if) you hit 6th.

Until then, your Animal companion is going to be your main strength, followed by summons. Your spell DC's will be too low to use spells that require a save, so other than summons, use buffs, or spells that don't allow saves.

BigDK

Oct 10, 2013 21:09:58

It's set, we can move them to where we want, but that's the stats on it. I went Lesser Aasimar Dragonborn to make them a little better, but they're still hard stats to work with. With that particular racial build, I ended up with -2 Dex, 2 Con, 2 Wis, 2 Cha so it's not quite as bad. But still, that's also why I keep thinking the Dragonshaman's fast heal aura would probably be one of the most beneficial things I can think of to keep the party from dying.

VorpalBunny

Oct 11, 2013 8:36:08

Generally though, you’d rather succeeded at encounters rather than simply “not die”, thus the link I initially sent you. While the Dragon Shaman fast healing aura DOES give you a decent supply of free healing, its not enough to win an encounter, and, frankly, the rest of your party isn’t choosing anything particularly encounter-ending either. Someone will need to step up, and sense you still need to choose something to build (and you’re the one asking for advice) that someone is likely you.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 11, 2013 9:14:38

Druid would work, but may also be overkill. With a party that heavily focused on melee, you could possibly heal and stay in their tier as an Inspire Courage bard. Use Healing Hymn and Cure Minor Wounds would restore 6 HP for a cantrip if needed,freeing up other spells for things like Harmony and Inspirational Boost (ideally you want these on wands, but you're kind of low budget - your DM gave you no money on top of awful ability scores.) Picking up Song of the Heart at 3rd gives you +4 Inspire Courage at level 3, meaning your teammates might actually have the killing power they need. If BoED is on the table you can even go for early access to Words of Creation, doubling your Inspire bonuses - which will compound, since they'll apply to all of your allies as well as you. Finally, if you're dragonblooded yourself, you can learn the Vigor aura you want through Draconic Aura, and possibly look into Dragonfire Inspiration. Try to get that in Sonic if possible; bards have some fun spells that make sonic even deadlier, such as Creaking Cacophony. Basically, I see a DM who made rules for a weak campaign and a party of weak characters; rather than introduce a potentially overpowering single character, I think it would be wiser to play a lower tier class that can make everyone else overcome these party wide limitations. (Sorry for the solid text block; I'm mobile and the mobile site doesn't register line breaks.)

(Reply to #8)

VorpalBunny

T_S, as always, has great points, but unless your DM is planning on giving you guys ways to boost your stats, you're probably never going to meet the prerequisites for Wods of Creation, as he'd (assuming putting stat priority as Cha>Int>Con>Dex>Wis>Str) need to boost his Charisma twice, and Int three times.

#10

BigDK

Oct 11, 2013 10:02:03

Hmm, I'll look into both playing a Druid and a Bard, I haven't done much research on those particular classes, I also don't mind overkill, as that's kinda what I was trying to go for. The reason the DM gives us such low stats, is because several people in the party have a general idea on how to stack a couple of feats, pop a power attack and do major damage making it harder for him to throw things against us. The reason for the low gold, is because the dungeon we're going into, ((The World's Largest Dungeon)) throws loot around like candy. I've ran through it before and it's crazy in the amount of +1 Swords that went to party treasure and such.

The only issue is the party I'm dealing with, from previous experience, has a lack of common sense. I can tell from personal experience they love splitting up in the big bad's dungeon, and just keep going till they're on the brink of death regardless.

Meanwhile, I'm going to read both handbooks on Druid and Bard to take those things into consideration.

#11

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 11, 2013 10:27:54

Derp, yes, oops on WOC's ability requirements. I think that in a game this weak though it might not be needed. +4 at 3rd is plenty strong if your best possible ability mod (13 on a +4 stat race) is only +3. Also: bard handbook http://dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/08/bards-handbook.html?m=1 and Inspire Courage handbook http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ldos4heufj95crl1lslfk2bjo1&topic=9830.0 should give you plenty of info. EDIT Wait, World's Longest Dungeon? Sure there is a lot of loot. But next to none of it will be ideal for your characters. I'd rather have a +2 sword than a third extra +1 sword (and I'd very much like a chance to use item creation feats!). You'll need to optimize for stamina without relying on gear, which is a very different proposition than optimizing a healer. Thankfully there's not much per-day stuff on the rest of your party, at least.

#12

BigDK

Oct 11, 2013 14:06:20

So, Bard seems to be the way to go for what I intend to do. I'm going to read through it as much as I can to see what I can find and learn from it. Thanks for the direction, and any further advice and such is going to be much appreciated.

#13

BigDK

Oct 11, 2013 16:17:57

Of course, I just talked with some of the people there. The Fighter's leaving as the player got shifted to second shift, leaving just the Paladin, Rogue, and Paragon. I also found out who was playing what.

The Rogue I know is compitent, though he hasn't done that sort of role before, he's capable but he's used to Melee roles.

The Paladin I question as semi compitent at best. I know the player and they are all about flavor, and not so much about function.

And finally the Paragon, the player has a habit of making healing types, but I am not sure if he will or not.

So while the bard may be my best choice still, I should be changing my goal to "What will benefit the party most?"

#14

Andarious-Rosethorn

Oct 16, 2013 17:36:00

You should consider giving your party Paladin a nudge to look at Crusader, it's like Paladin with a lot less fail in most ways. The Rogue, there is no direct cure, there are only upgrades really. The Paragon? I'm not really sure what his end game is, but it probably isn't a strong one.

Your own character if you play a Bard as Tempest suggests will not only carry the party melee but help pick up the pieces after. Additionally, a solid Bard like this will bring two weapon fighters and archers into the realm of plausability. Usually these builds fail all over the place when put up against a simple Greatsword+Power Attack fighter, whom will also be made generally more devastating by your Bard's inspiration.

#15

Christof_Romulus

Nov 16, 2013 15:53:31

You can be a healing bard, which I believe has been suggested.

Bards, when properly made (Hymn of Healing in the place of Fascinate) can end up healing far better than anyone would expect.

Also, if possible suppliment your healing with a Healing Belt, just because that item simply has got to be priced incorrectly.

#16

Slagger_the_Chuul

Nov 16, 2013 16:13:17

As has been mentioned recently in a separate thread, the Complete Champion errata for Healing Hymn actually makes it almost useless for most spells (because it's restricted by the caster level limits of curing spells; for example, it can't push a cure light wounds spell past its normal 1d8+5 limit). And somewhat stupidly, there doesn't appear to be a comparable substitution for the suggestion or mass suggestion bardic music abilities, so if you take Healing Hymn, you're undermining those abilities by forcing them to rely on other means of fascinating creatures (typically spells).

Healing Hymn in particular is, unfortunately, a bad deal.