Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 realmarkp Nov 23, 2008 11:57:37	Is there a way to optimize the amount of healing that a Healer can output? I am playing the following character: Race: Aasimar Class: Healer 3, Sorcerer 1 Abilities: Str:10, Dex:10, Con:11, Wis:18, Cha: 21. Feats: Augment Healing, Sacred Vow. With the Healer class, I get to add my Charisma bonus to all my healing rolls. I also get a +2 bonus from Augment Healing. (Cure Light Wounds roll: 1d8 + 5 + 2) I'm mainly looking for Feat suggestions, Gear suggestions, Prestige class suggestions, etc. I am also reluctant to jump into any cleric ranks because My character is going to be a non combatant (My next feat will be a Vow of Nonviolence). I like the Mystic Theurge PrC because it can level up both my Arcane and Divine spells. Any thoughts?
#2 ChristopherGroves Nov 23, 2008 12:11:38	Mystic Theurge is rough without some early entry action going on. Sorcerer into it will be tough. Are you planning to early entry? Versatile / Heighten Spell or other? Going Sorcerer 4 is going to be difficult to maintain long-term. You'll be 2 spell levels back than if you stayed straight Healer (a healer 7 casts 4th level spells ... a healer 3 / sorcerer 4 casts 2nd level spells). For further on out ... - A dip into Sacred Exorcist will get you Turn Undead - A dip into Contemplative will net you a domain of your choice ... there are other ways to get one - One level of cleric (cloistered) isn't bad at all ... there are several things you get from that (like, say, 3 domain powers and turn undead if you don't go sacred exorcist) that are hard to replicate otherwise Remember your prohibition is only against humanoids and monstrous humanoids right? Isn't that the limitation? So you can still put the hurt on other folks.
#3 ChristopherGroves Nov 23, 2008 12:13:07	Incidentially, what setting are you playing? Books, etc.? I had a Healer build a while back where I tricked it out with things like the Eberron Sovereign Speaker and ended up with a freakishly huge list of spells known (including anyspell from the Spell domain).
#4 realmarkp Nov 23, 2008 12:30:19	Are you planning to early entry? I'll try to enter into it at Healer 3, Sorcerer 3. The requirements specify that I need access to 2nd Level Divine and Arcane Spells. The Healer's Special ability's list is rather shameful, so I am not even considering going deep into it, I just want the spell list. Going Sorcerer 4 is going to be difficult to maintain long-term. You'll be 2 spell levels back than if you stayed straight Healer (a healer 7 casts 4th level spells ... a healer 3 / sorcerer 4 casts 2nd level spells). Thats true, sort of. The Sorcerer levels are more utility then anything. Opening locked doors, shielding people, enlarge person, mage hand, etc. To be honest, since the Healer is my main class, It will be a bit underpowered, but I was hoping a string of good feats and items might augment that. Remember your prohibition is only against humanoids and monstrous humanoids right? Isn't that the limitation? So you can still put the hurt on other folks. Knowing my DM, he will mess with my character to the point where I won't be able to do damage to any living creature. Therefore, my character's role is a pacifist. Undead, Abberations, Constructs are still OK to kill. I was hoping that's where my sorcerer skills might help my party kill things. Incidentially, what setting are you playing? Books, etc.? We are playing a Faerun Campaign. Setting is around the 'Dales'.
#5 ChristopherGroves Nov 23, 2008 13:00:41	I guess what I'm trying to say is ... Mystic Theurge is a very poor class, unless you can early-entry. Delaying your spell progression is not worth it. I know the sheer number of spells seems powerful, but the truth is you only get one action a round AND if you really compare, you don't get that many more spells. Being able to cast spells 2 levels higher is generally going to be more helpful to your party. Healer is already a poor-ish class, but has some things you can optimize. CHA based casting ... cleric-speed casting progression ... etc. If that is your key class, delaying 4 levels of its spell casting is not-goodness. I completely get the desire to try to push two CHA casters together. Completely get it. But you're going to take your key class (Healer) which is already weak and hinder its growth while you wait on sorcerer. This would be better: 1 - Healer 1 (Heighten Spell) 2 - Healer 2 3 - Sorcerer 1 (Versatile Spell) 4 - Healer 3 5 - Mystic Theurge 1 6 - Mystic Theurge 2 (Augment Healing) This gets you in Mystic Theurge at the cost of one level of Healer casting. Versatile Spell lets you combine two of your spells (two first level sorc spells) to cast a higher level spell (a heightened 1st level spell ... which is a 2nd level spell ... this is covered in the latest FAQ I believe ... and allows you to meet the casting requirement for Mystic Theurge). You'll be more useful to your party in all ways. If you're set on the vow right now, I'm not sure how much we can help you optimize. If your DM will let you take flaws, fit it in that way possibly? If you want to be a Mystic Theurge Pacifist, the Apostle of Peace combined with Sorc or Wizard is going to be MUCH stronger than a Healer (though I get that you want to be a healer, just pointing it out). Sorcerer 7 / Apostle of Peace 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 is a very decent non-combatant. You could even get your DM to change the spell list if you prefer for the Apostle to match the Healer list.
#6 ranevan Nov 23, 2008 15:16:01	Are you getting a level of LA for Aasimar? Spellscales also get a + to Cha. I forget what you get fo hellbred...might be int... not CHA, but you might look into it... Anyway, my only suggestion is the extra spell feat. I as a DM usually have no problem with picking stuff from the same power source - as in arcane taking arcane and divine taking divine. If you need arcane spells, extra spell the spell "anyspell". Just my 2 cents. If you want some offense, there are Cleric spells that I believe do damage you can take extra spell for, too.
#7 realmarkp Nov 23, 2008 16:57:11	Mystic Theurge is a very poor class, unless you can early-entry. Delaying your spell progression is not worth it. I'm well aware of this weakness that my character has. But in the grand scheme of things, everyone in the party is multi-classing, so their spell level won't be as high either. The DM is aware of this and the encounters we face are at level the party can handle. Not to mention, we are all a bunch of squishy characters. If you want to be a Mystic Theurge Pacifist, the Apostle of Peace combined with Sorc or Wizard is going to be MUCH stronger than a Healer (though I get that you want to be a healer, just pointing it out). Sorcerer 7 / Apostle of Peace 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 is a very decent non-combatant. You could even get your DM to change the spell list if you prefer for the Apostle to match the Healer list. Good stuff, I will definitely look into the Apostle of Peace. Unfortunately, I cannot take back the Feats and levels I already have put into place. The reason why I took the sacred vow was to further the fluff of my character and eventually to get the Saint (BoED) template imposed onto me. Also, that opens the door to the feat Vow of Poverty, which gives me a slew of bonus exalted feats and bonuses. Since I will be a non-combatant, the extra AC and damage reduction is very appealing. Jumping into the Apostle of Peace might be right up my alley since its in line with how I play my character. I still lack in feat choices. Should I even bother with Greater Charisma? Are you getting a level of LA for Aasimar? Indeed I am, the stats I posted are already with the Aasimar LA added in. Spellscales also get a + to Cha. I'll definitely look into it, thanks.
#8 ChristopherGroves Nov 23, 2008 17:34:14	Metamagic (Extend+Persistent or Quicken) When you get Turn Undead (Sacred Exorcist or Apostle of Peace) consider Divine Metamagic (quicken spell) Pity you can't re-train.
#9 ranevan Nov 23, 2008 18:05:31	..Lol. Sorry, I missed that you couldn't retrain and were set with what you had for your current character. What are the other characters in your party? And what spells did you get for your Sorc level?
#10 realmarkp Nov 23, 2008 23:02:16	..Lol. Sorry, I missed that you couldn't retrain and were set with what you had for your current character. What are the other characters in your party? And what spells did you get for your Sorc level? No prob, I'm partied with a Druid that is trying to become a lycanthrope (Munchkin in the making), and a Shadowcaster. The sad thing is that the shadowcaster is our tank. What I don't understand is that you guys say the Healer class is underpowered but yet I heal up to 16hp with cure light wounds, which is about as much hp as my part members have. I took these spells as my sorc: L0: Daze, Mage Hand, Stick, Touch of Fatigue, and Caltrops. L1: Comprehend Languages, Mage Armor.
#11 jenos Nov 24, 2008 0:46:17	Because ultimately the healer class is a bad cleric. Healers spell lists suck, what makes clerics powerful is not the ability to heal, but the ability to heal OR do significant amounts of damage/be useful to a party. The spellist sucks, and while the benefits are powerful at low levels, yes, they very quickly get reduced to nothingness as you gain levels. 1d8+5 is significant, but at level 5(with the same cha), 3d8+5 isn't as significant(111% increase in the effectiveness of the spell at level 1, but only a 37% increase of the equivalent level spell at level 5, and it goes downhill from there). It just doesn't hold up well as you progress, to the point where its weak. Add in the nonviolence and mediocre abilities/armor restrictions/bab and it just doesn't add up to anything useful. And most importantly, with divine metamagic amazing things can be done I see that you're trying to make a nonviolent character that focuses on healing. The problem is from an optimization standpoint, healer is just a poor way to do that. Apostle of Peace is a great way to go into a healer, but the problem is you can't access it until level 13 at the earliest with your current featlist, which means you wouldn't ever be able to access even 8th level spellcasting pre-epic. If you could redo feats it would be great to head into, but it doesn't look too great. See if you can get your DM to say that it instead progresses your spellcasting and gives you access to the increases apostle spell list, that might prove to be more useful. But right now I'm leery for apostle of peace simply because its going to take forever to get into, and then once you head into it you're basically throwing away poentially more useful caster levels to cast cure moderate wounds wounds at level 14. Going into some sort of dual spellcasting also seems problematic given that you mentioned that your DM wouldn't let you be offensive against any living thing. Significantly limits the potential of sorcs, and you're not going to be able to pick up beyond 7th level spellcasting as that anyway. At this point I would think the best way to go would be to pick up generic straight spellcasting level up prc's. I'm honestly tempted to say you should go Comtemplative 1 for magic domain into DWK, simply because 1 level of sorc will let you meet the "cast arcane spells" prereq, and casting revivify as a supernatural ability means you don't need to dump gold into it(Among other uses). Or possibly divine disciple into DWK, as you can access DD at level 8 allowing you to go into DWK at level 12. Possibly Healer 1-3->Sorc 1->Healer 4-6->divine disciple 1-5 -> DWK 1-8(gives you outsider type, isn't great since you can't poly but usefulish and 8 levels of DWK, can drop one level of DD to head into DWK earlier) or healer 1-3->sorc 1->healer 4-10->cont 1->dwk 1-8. Which will grab you most of the SU abilities of healer and a unicorn, let you head into DWK and grab even more spells as supernatural abilities. Other full spellcasting progression classes can work. My suggestion is to just get out of the healer class asap and find something that will make use of the fact that you can cast 1st level arcane spells, like DWK. Though with the healer spell list DWK may not be ideal, you may want to head directly into contemplative or even go into another full casting class for which you meet the requirements earlier on. At this point though I really think you should stay away from trying to advance both, its going to end up making you ineffective in general. Focusing on healing in general isn't that great, because often times optimizing a damger can result in the same changes in the tide of battle. Sure you could heal 50 damage in a single go, but at the same time, you ccould potentially do 80 damage to the enemy and prevent the need for healing and make it so it doesn't do any more damage that needs healing.
#12 manic_man Nov 24, 2008 13:27:15	What I don't understand is that you guys say the Healer class is underpowered but yet I heal up to 16hp with cure light wounds, which is about as much hp as my part members have. Thats because a lot of people seem to play only high levels or never had a healer class. At low levels, the healer is very good at his job. At level < 6, get the healer to stand behind the tank and both of you should be fine. The main problem with the class is the lack of actual combat abilities, poor defense and pretty limited skills. Since you desire to be a non combatant, that would be fine, though be aware that it can get very boring. From what you described, i do not think your party will survive to high levels, where the healer starts to sputter You can also look into the following feats to boost your healing complete champion Mitigate suffering Touch of healing dragon magic Initiate of Tamara Races of the wild Magic of the Land Complete Scoundrel Healer's luck (Not worth the feat slot but up to you to decide) Complete Divine's Spontaneous Healer feat may also be helpful to you as the Healer needs to select his spells unless your DM is fine with the healer casting like a sorcerer/warmage
#13 realmarkp Nov 24, 2008 14:28:29	Though be aware that it can get very boring. So far, I'm loving every minute of it. Out of combat, the party relies heavily on my diplomacy skills, etc. So Its not that boring. From what you described, i do not think your party will survive to high levels, where the healer starts to sputter. Actually, my DM just approved a custom PrC I whipped up in lieu of this conversation. I dug up some info on the "Unhindered Path", which is a guild of traveling healers. He allowed me to make a PrC based on it. Basically, I took some of the most powerful aspects of Radiant Servent of Palor and the Apostle of Peace. He said its a bit overpowered but not enough so to scrap it. This might balance out my healing in later levels. It will push me up to level 11 and hopefully I'll be on par with the damage being dealt to my party. Mitigate suffering: Hmm, looks interesting. I'll put it on the list for now, but it doesn't sound extremely astounding. Touch of healing: I'll definitely take that. Initiate of Tamara: Actually, I'm already planning to take the Initiate of Ilmater. My DM made it a requirement for my PrC. Magic of the Land: This might actually be worth putting in some points into knowledge(nature). Nice find. Healer's luck: Doesn't seem worth it. Complete Divine's Spontaneous Healer feat may also be helpful to you as the Healer needs to select his spells unless your DM is fine with the healer casting like a sorcerer/warmage My DM allowed me to behave much like a sorcerer, so I have a set list of spells I know. Also, The Healer's spell list is very small. What do you guys think of the Ritual Blessing Feat? Worth it?
#14 jenos Nov 24, 2008 19:36:05	Ritual Blessing is probably not worth it unless you can get it to scale like augment healing does. It functions as a simple +2 to any cure spell, so not worth a feat especially given that you have to pay gold for it. The disease ritual is also not worth it unless you're facing a significant amount of that, much like the third ritual. If you are facing a significant amount of disease or evil outsiders then by all means go ahead and take the feat, but there are far better options for your higher level feats. At level 6 do you really want to waste a feat for a whopping +2 to your heal spells?
#15 ChristopherGroves Nov 24, 2008 19:37:36	If you're casting like a sorcerer then the world has MANY more options. Expand that spell list !!! Items, feats, etc. !!!