Mirumoto Sword Master help (lvl20) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Mirumoto Sword Master help (lvl20)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Archenstone
Jan 26, 2012 23:00:07 Hi everyone. I'm kinda getting the trial by fire introduction to D&D and it just so happens I'm starting out in a single day campaign where everyone pretty much expects to be anniallated if they don't ehhh....work together as a team. Unfortunately this is also the campaign where other player's can't help each other with builds so I'm a little on the outs for information. I'm trying to make a character that might be useful to the group and still fun to play (even if she gets annialated in glorious chaos)
Here is a character sheet I am putting together www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheet...

SOme notes about the campaign rules
anything possible in the books is allowed
lvl 20
any magical item or items of choice not claimed by a player currently. (except for items that have pieces to be found first)
all base stats 18

If you see anything I could improve upon or have recommendations for magical katana/wakazashi combo or other magical equipment that might help me survive the first round it would awesome
#2
The_Fred
Jan 27, 2012 7:10:50 All base stats 18 and any magical items? Wow.

In terms of ensuring you are being useful to the group... well, you are playing a pure Samurai. That means you're a frontline melee, nothing more or less. The party will surely make use of one, though there is the question of what happens if everyone else makes melee builds too. Still, it's not exactly entirely your responsability to make sure the team is well-balanced, especially if you haven't really played before. It would be nice if you could find out at least what sorts of roles people are planning on taking, though.

I notice you're using the CW version of the Samurai, which is good because the OA one sucks (I thought it was the other way 'round, but it seems not). One thing I would say is that whilst Frightful Presence is nice and may very much help your party, you might consider breaking at L16 or L17 to dip into something else. Just note that FP doesn't affect L20+ foes, and will only Shake most others, if they fail their saves. I'm not sure how useful that will be in your campaign.

With your Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Exotic Weapon Master would be easy to get into, but I'm not sure how useful it will be to you. I'm not an expert of melee builds, but the classes from Tome of Battle are probably more useful; dip Crusader or Warblade to get some cool manouevres.

Also, shouldn't you have an LA from Half-Dragon? It looks like your saves are off too, you should have +12/+6/+6 base I think.
#3
Tempest_Stormwind
Jan 27, 2012 11:36:26
I notice you're using the CW version of the Samurai, which is good because the OA one sucks (I thought it was the other way 'round, but it seems not).

Fred, are you all right? That's precisely backwards. The CW samurai is the only heroic class that's listed on Tier Six - the same level as the commoner - because it's essentially a Lawful fighter who gave up his selection of bonus feats for abilities which do not work well with his role or with his other abilities. The OA samurai is a fighter, who can get magic swords at half price*, and trades heavy armor for more skills. That plops it at roughly the same location as the regular Fighter, which is the higher end of Tier Five, give or take (I'd put it slightly below, since the fighter got some amazing exclusive support abilities later on and the OA samurai did not.)

*(Not really, but the way Ancestral Daisho works is that you sacrifice treasure to it for 100% of its value when enhancing the daisho. For other fighters, any treasure you find that isn't gold - like, say, magic items - have to be sold for 50% of their value first, meaning you need to sell two +1 swords to buy a +1 axe, while a samurai would need to sacrifice one +1 axe to power up a +1 katana.)

The only way to make the CW Samurai on the same level as the OA samurai - or really, any character at all - is if the feat Imperious Command is available. That feat alters the effect of Intimidate, so that instead of being shaken for 1 round, demoralized foes cower (read: Take no actions and are denied dexterity) for 1 round and then are shaken for a further round after that (read: can stack fear attempts). Imperious Command is normally paired with the Never Outnumbered skill trick (1/encounter demoralize everyone nearby, instead of a single target) or the Intimidating Rage feat (which can let you lock down a target for as long as you rage), but it also works alarmingly well with the Staredown and Mass Staredown abilities. Of course, as soon as you fight something that you can't Intimidate - immune to fear, say - you're an NPC warrior again, but against intimidatable foes, you're a walking lock.

Incidentally, notice how this character does not have Imperious Command?

Furthermore, you're technically level 23, so you're too strong for the game. Half-dragons have a +3 level adjustment.
#4
The_Fred
Jan 27, 2012 18:06:47
I notice you're using the CW version of the Samurai, which is good because the OA one sucks (I thought it was the other way 'round, but it seems not).

Fred, are you all right? That's precisely backwards.

Ack, I thought there was something wrong. I have in fact only very recently recommended the OA one to someone over the CW one.

Yes, the CW one is not very good.
Two Swords as One is like a worse Ranger's Combat Style (well, it works in armour though), and whilst dual-wielding different weapons is OK at lower levels, it falls out of fashion because things like Weapon Focus don't gel with it.
Kiai Smite is like the Paladin's Smite Evil, except the bonus is your Cha mod, not 1/level (generally worse), only it can be used against all foes. Also, it progresses two levels later.
Iaijustu Master is a free Quick Draw; situational. Improved Initiative is nice, though a Fighter could take this as one of his bonus feats.
Staredown is pretty lame, since it takes a standard action. Improved Mass Staredown is OK, but by L14 you want to full attack. It could work with a demoralising buddy (like a fear specialist spellcaster) but I don't think it's worth working around. Also a non-combat +4 Intimidate buff.
Frightful Presence I do like, but by L20 its usefulness will be limited.

So, what are we left with? A worse Ranger Combat Style plus a worse Paladin Smite plus maybe two free feats, Intimidate and Frightful Presence. Similar skills to the Paladin. This gives us... a not very good Paladin.

One the other hand, the OA is one is as flavourless as that 7p Angel's Delight my mates got from the supermarket once. As TS says, the fact that you can sacrifice items for Ancestral Daisho makes it decent, but with a team-mate with Craft Arms and Armour or some haggling ability, it starts to look less good than 50%. It also depends on your treasure to gold ratio, though you should be able to spend your gold on other things. It's nice, but the only other thing you get is boring bonus feats, and less than the Fighter. The reason this class is OK is that the Fighter doesn't need those feats, so a Fighter 20 may as well be a Samurai 20 and get Ancestral Daisho - and the high Will save, which is a major perk. However, your feats may only be drawn from a clan-specific set.

This is why I got confused - I looked at the books and was like "Lame bonus feats, this must be the sucky version"; actually it's just boring. I think pretty much everyone has their own home-brewed version of the Samurai which strikes a middle ground somewhere.

If you want to stick with this version of the Samurai, do as TS says and take Imperious Command - but personally, I don't like relying on fear effects, especially at L20. I would be dubious about sticking with the Samurai at all; it's cool, but the state of the rules on it is not good, IMO.

Interestingly, the OA version of the Samurai doesn't say anything about multi-classing; Ancestral Weapon relies on character level, not Samurai class level. It looks like a disgustingly blatant piece of optimisation to me, but you could actually just take Samurai 2/Fighter 18 and have the Ancestral Weapon of a Samurai 20 AND *more* feats than a Fighter 20. With your 18 stats rule, taking things like Paladin 3 (Cha to saves) also shout out to me. (OA) Samurai 2/Paladin 3/XXXX should work well, for example.
#5
aelryinth
Jan 28, 2012 0:57:03 You could also go swimming in the OA splat books for the Samurai feats by house.

The Dragon Clan ones weren't all that impressive...any reason you're sticking with it? The most overall useful series of Samurai fighting feats were the Akodo line for the Lion, especially Way of the Lion.

==Aelryinth
#6
Krusk
Jan 28, 2012 7:18:33 Id consider going straight fighteer and playing him with your own code of bushido for the samurai feel.

If you have access to OA i always recomend taking iajitsu focus. Its a fairly simple and solid damage booster. Combine with quickdraw for a straightforward samurai theme of one hit one kill.

End of the daythough, its gonna be hard to be effective melee dude at high levels. Intimidation isn't a bad route.

Dont play a cw samurai.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Archenstone Jan 26, 2012 23:00:07	Hi everyone. I'm kinda getting the trial by fire introduction to D&D and it just so happens I'm starting out in a single day campaign where everyone pretty much expects to be anniallated if they don't ehhh....work together as a team. Unfortunately this is also the campaign where other player's can't help each other with builds so I'm a little on the outs for information. I'm trying to make a character that might be useful to the group and still fun to play (even if she gets annialated in glorious chaos) Here is a character sheet I am putting together www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheet... SOme notes about the campaign rules anything possible in the books is allowed lvl 20 any magical item or items of choice not claimed by a player currently. (except for items that have pieces to be found first) all base stats 18 If you see anything I could improve upon or have recommendations for magical katana/wakazashi combo or other magical equipment that might help me survive the first round it would awesome
#2 The_Fred Jan 27, 2012 7:10:50	All base stats 18 and any magical items? Wow. In terms of ensuring you are being useful to the group... well, you are playing a pure Samurai. That means you're a frontline melee, nothing more or less. The party will surely make use of one, though there is the question of what happens if everyone else makes melee builds too. Still, it's not exactly entirely your responsability to make sure the team is well-balanced, especially if you haven't really played before. It would be nice if you could find out at least what sorts of roles people are planning on taking, though. I notice you're using the CW version of the Samurai, which is good because the OA one sucks (I thought it was the other way 'round, but it seems not). One thing I would say is that whilst Frightful Presence is nice and may very much help your party, you might consider breaking at L16 or L17 to dip into something else. Just note that FP doesn't affect L20+ foes, and will only Shake most others, if they fail their saves. I'm not sure how useful that will be in your campaign. With your Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Exotic Weapon Master would be easy to get into, but I'm not sure how useful it will be to you. I'm not an expert of melee builds, but the classes from Tome of Battle are probably more useful; dip Crusader or Warblade to get some cool manouevres. Also, shouldn't you have an LA from Half-Dragon? It looks like your saves are off too, you should have +12/+6/+6 base I think.
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 27, 2012 11:36:26	I notice you're using the CW version of the Samurai, which is good because the OA one sucks (I thought it was the other way 'round, but it seems not). Fred, are you all right? That's precisely backwards. The CW samurai is the only heroic class that's listed on Tier Six - the same level as the commoner - because it's essentially a Lawful fighter who gave up his selection of bonus feats for abilities which do not work well with his role or with his other abilities. The OA samurai is a fighter, who can get magic swords at half price, and trades heavy armor for more skills. That plops it at roughly the same location as the regular Fighter, which is the higher end of Tier Five, give or take (I'd put it slightly below, since the fighter got some amazing exclusive support abilities later on and the OA samurai did not.) (Not really, but the way Ancestral Daisho works is that you sacrifice treasure to it for 100% of its value when enhancing the daisho. For other fighters, any treasure you find that isn't gold - like, say, magic items - have to be sold for 50% of their value first, meaning you need to sell two +1 swords to buy a +1 axe, while a samurai would need to sacrifice one +1 axe to power up a +1 katana.) The only way to make the CW Samurai on the same level as the OA samurai - or really, any character at all - is if the feat Imperious Command is available. That feat alters the effect of Intimidate, so that instead of being shaken for 1 round, demoralized foes cower (read: Take no actions and are denied dexterity) for 1 round and then are shaken for a further round after that (read: can stack fear attempts). Imperious Command is normally paired with the Never Outnumbered skill trick (1/encounter demoralize everyone nearby, instead of a single target) or the Intimidating Rage feat (which can let you lock down a target for as long as you rage), but it also works alarmingly well with the Staredown and Mass Staredown abilities. Of course, as soon as you fight something that you can't Intimidate - immune to fear, say - you're an NPC warrior again, but against intimidatable foes, you're a walking lock. Incidentally, notice how this character does not have Imperious Command? Furthermore, you're technically level 23, so you're too strong for the game. Half-dragons have a +3 level adjustment.
#4 The_Fred Jan 27, 2012 18:06:47	I notice you're using the CW version of the Samurai, which is good because the OA one sucks (I thought it was the other way 'round, but it seems not). Fred, are you all right? That's precisely backwards. Ack, I thought there was something wrong. I have in fact only very recently recommended the OA one to someone over the CW one. Yes, the CW one is not very good. Two Swords as One is like a worse Ranger's Combat Style (well, it works in armour though), and whilst dual-wielding different weapons is OK at lower levels, it falls out of fashion because things like Weapon Focus don't gel with it. Kiai Smite is like the Paladin's Smite Evil, except the bonus is your Cha mod, not 1/level (generally worse), only it can be used against all foes. Also, it progresses two levels later. Iaijustu Master is a free Quick Draw; situational. Improved Initiative is nice, though a Fighter could take this as one of his bonus feats. Staredown is pretty lame, since it takes a standard action. Improved Mass Staredown is OK, but by L14 you want to full attack. It could work with a demoralising buddy (like a fear specialist spellcaster) but I don't think it's worth working around. Also a non-combat +4 Intimidate buff. Frightful Presence I do like, but by L20 its usefulness will be limited. So, what are we left with? A worse Ranger Combat Style plus a worse Paladin Smite plus maybe two free feats, Intimidate and Frightful Presence. Similar skills to the Paladin. This gives us... a not very good Paladin. One the other hand, the OA is one is as flavourless as that 7p Angel's Delight my mates got from the supermarket once. As TS says, the fact that you can sacrifice items for Ancestral Daisho makes it decent, but with a team-mate with Craft Arms and Armour or some haggling ability, it starts to look less good than 50%. It also depends on your treasure to gold ratio, though you should be able to spend your gold on other things. It's nice, but the only other thing you get is boring bonus feats, and less than the Fighter. The reason this class is OK is that the Fighter doesn't need those feats, so a Fighter 20 may as well be a Samurai 20 and get Ancestral Daisho - and the high Will save, which is a major perk. However, your feats may only be drawn from a clan-specific set. This is why I got confused - I looked at the books and was like "Lame bonus feats, this must be the sucky version"; actually it's just boring. I think pretty much everyone has their own home-brewed version of the Samurai which strikes a middle ground somewhere. If you want to stick with this version of the Samurai, do as TS says and take Imperious Command - but personally, I don't like relying on fear effects, especially at L20. I would be dubious about sticking with the Samurai at all; it's cool, but the state of the rules on it is not good, IMO. Interestingly, the OA version of the Samurai doesn't say anything about multi-classing; Ancestral Weapon relies on character level, not Samurai class level. It looks like a disgustingly blatant piece of optimisation to me, but you could actually just take Samurai 2/Fighter 18 and have the Ancestral Weapon of a Samurai 20 AND more feats than a Fighter 20. With your 18 stats rule, taking things like Paladin 3 (Cha to saves) also shout out to me. (OA) Samurai 2/Paladin 3/XXXX should work well, for example.
#5 aelryinth Jan 28, 2012 0:57:03	You could also go swimming in the OA splat books for the Samurai feats by house. The Dragon Clan ones weren't all that impressive...any reason you're sticking with it? The most overall useful series of Samurai fighting feats were the Akodo line for the Lion, especially Way of the Lion. ==Aelryinth
#6 Krusk Jan 28, 2012 7:18:33	Id consider going straight fighteer and playing him with your own code of bushido for the samurai feel. If you have access to OA i always recomend taking iajitsu focus. Its a fairly simple and solid damage booster. Combine with quickdraw for a straightforward samurai theme of one hit one kill. End of the daythough, its gonna be hard to be effective melee dude at high levels. Intimidation isn't a bad route. Dont play a cw samurai.