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| #1feraltempestasDec 15, 2008 17:52:27 | A friend of mine wants to watch me get tastefully edited *ahem* (verbally torn appart) for a 'caster build of which I plan to put to use fairly soon. I'll be copy-pasting it below. I'd be happy for comments, corrections, or aid, and I'm sure he'll be happy with "Booo!" and or "L2P newb." Lastly, if this is the wrong forum, I humbly appologize. I'm rather new to this particular site :3. -------------------- Each level is a seperate Gestalt from Unearthed Arcana. lvl, class/class, Caster Level, Manifester level 1, Shadowcaster/Eidelon, 1, 0. 2, Druid/Psion, 2,1 3, Fighter/sourcerer, 3, 1. 4, Wizard/Soulknife, 4, 1. 5, Wilder/Ranger, 4, 2. 6, Druid/Shadowcaster, 6, 2. 7, Eidelon/Druid, 7, 2. 8, Shadowcaster/Truenamer, 8, 2. 9, Druid/Eideloncer, 10, 2. 10, Eideloncer/Psion, 11, 3. 11, Psion/Druid, 12, 4. 12, Eideloncer/Wilder, 13, 5. 13, Fighter/Binder, 13, 5. Haven't gone past that, but I don't think we're likely to keep going that long XD. Now for the justifications. I realize that by mixing and matching things, I've completely gone against the usual maximization ideal of focusing onto one particular area like a skill monkey or a sneak-atack-damage-freak or a huge honking tank with eleventy billion AC. In spite of this, I decided to try to give myself as wide a variety of powers and abilities. Between the variations in styles of magic and psionics available, and the potential to still be competent in mele, there's no way to be caught off guard, and no way that the DM can be prepared for a way to counter Everything I have, especially after all the caster levels start stacking up. First off, the Shadow-caster levels are going to be the main offensive focus, at least for the first few levels. It may get fewer spells than the sorcerer or wizard, but they're deadly and have the usual obscurity advantage. While this might seem like a good reason to replace the wizard and sorcerer levels with shadow-caster levels, I can still use the extra enchantments and magic missles a while. This gives me another tool to use to get by the DM's planning. (More so, I can burn an arcane-caster level for an extra Shadow level each time I gain a ShadowCaster level cap, so I'll be able to keep up with damage later on :D.) Druid? Healing spells and Wild Shape. I'll probably only get it up to 5, but I can take feats from Ghostwalk to get extra uses of Wildshape per day, as well as extra spell-slots :D. That, Nature's Ally, and the usual talk with trees and animals means I'll almost always have friends and contacts in the wilderness. The psion levels will be as a Telepath, focusing on charming and a bit of communication >:D. Friends in the wild are good, especially when mixed with friends in high places. Mindlink will also let us split the group a little bit if needed, without losing contact. Why all the 'casters? In-Character backing, and the Eidelon feats. 'Casters get some of the best will-saves, and the ability to move through solid objects has a DC15 will-save attatched :3. Starting out at 3rd level, I'll still have a 45% chance of failure :3. However, I'll also be able to float freely, if slowly until I level up at least once due to the Ghost Glide feat (also Ghostwalk.) As for the Eidoloncer? Their Spellcasting class ability allows them to gain spells as if they'd gained a level in their spell-casting class. However, it does Not limit them to one class >:D, so I can apply it to Druid, Shadowcaster, and even if I've burned off the sorcerer and wizard levels, I'll just start up again (though I won't be able to burn them a second time.) Figher? Box of feats and base atack bonus, though the Fort save's not bad. But Ranger? Soulknife? >:D. If something gets close, I might not be able to charm it, and casting spells givs atacks of opertunity, so I'll have a weapon I can summon at will, and be able to wield two of them with the Ranger's two-weapon fighting style. The MindBlade starts out as a +1 weapon, and even so, I may well end up making Touch atacks because of a couple of feats. That said, I decided Not to take the Ghost Flight and Improved variation there of in order to make room for Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. I don't think we'll be getting much in the line of Magical or Psionic gear, so I thought that between the Sactified strike (+1 to whatever I wield) and the SoulKnife's free weapons, I'd be doing pretty well. Endure elements (already have >:D) makes sure I won't need to worry 'bout the weather, and the AC and Deflection and Natural Armor bounuses will be better than most of the light armor I could wear as a caster after a couple of levels. The exalted feats don't have a "Good Alignment" requirement XD. True Neutral, but with good intentions ftw. As it is, I've already got Golden Ice Touch, so anything evil that touches me gets to make a pair of DC14 fort saves or take 1D6 and then 2D6 Dex damage >:D. (In a group with an idiot of a pally, a vampire, a wearwolf, and a young black dragon. I think I either have some redeming or manipulating ahead of me >.>;) Lastly would be the Binder, Truenamer, and Wilder feats. Wilder-I won't want to spend as much time as I'd need to make the Psion stuff viable later, so I'll be using the wilder's Wild Surge to cast as a few levels higher in addition th power-point-pumping. Binder will give versatility in both Mele and a bit of sneaking damage, and is good for a bit of intimidation :D. Truenamer with one or two levels won't do a Lot, but having "Inertia Surge" to either free someone or hold them still for capture/interogation, and maybe a couple of other nifty things. Just a skill-monkey attatchmet, I guess. Anyhow, I'll be getting a bounus feat every other level from VoP, a regular one every 4 levels from PHB mechanics, get enough levels in ShadowCaster to get one or two MetaShadow feats (expand/empower spell, shadow equivilent) Figher and Eidelon levels (boxes of feats), VoP ability, AC, and Damage bounuses, free weapons, and Every Kind of Spellcasting (except Ki. Frigging Incarnum) available to me as I go along. |
| #2tc_x0_lt_0xDec 15, 2008 17:55:43 | A friend of mine wants to watch me get tastefully edited *ahem* (verbally torn appart) for a 'caster build of which I plan to put to use fairly soon... [Is Friend] >=3 |
| #3reisDec 15, 2008 18:08:06 | i don't really do gestalt but touch of golden ice like most poisons seems sub optimal because the DC is so low compared to the saves of optimized characters also it is my contention and that of many people here that trying to make a character focused on too many things at once makes you generally useless at all of them as you go up in level. |
| #4feraltempestasDec 15, 2008 18:16:39 | I agree that the DC14 isn't all that great, but the characters that it's intended to keep at a distance aren't going to be maximized. If I'm going on a mele offensive, or forced to close-range defense, I have the Eidelon feat to provide insubstantiality for a big miss-chance, and the Ranger and Soulknife abilities. Golden Ice is to keep the party-members from causing me too much trouble :D. The vampire won't bite me or risk Slam atacks for fear of it, and the were-wolf will have to deal with it any time he uses the lycanthropic skills. As for the black dragon, If he's a caster, I've got a great will save (though reflex is shot >.>, but again, Incorporeality) and the golden ice applies if he's a mele-class. By the time any of them get a substantial fort-save (of which, now that I think of it, the vampire won't have at all) I'll have things like Charm(psionic) powered up. |
| #5KruskDec 15, 2008 18:44:44 | lvl, class/class, Caster Level, Manifester level Gives you what is essentially this, Shadowcaster2/druid3/fighter2/wizard 1/wilder 1/Eidelon1/eideloncer1//eidelon 1/psion2/sorcerer1/soulknife1/ranger1/shadowcaster 1/druid 2/truenamer 1/eideloncer 1/wilder 1/binder 1 Unfortunatly you are breaking one of the rules of Gestalt. You can't take the same class on both sides. If your DM lets you, they don't stack, meaning some of your levels are essentially dead. (Dont stack as in have to start over again at level 1. {again unless your DM says otherwise, and houserules gestalt dfferent than normal}) In reality your build level by level is 1, Shadowcaster/Eidelon 2, Druid/Psion 3, Fighter/sourcerer 4, Wizard/Soulknife 5, Wilder/Ranger 6, Druid/EMPTY 7, EMPTY/EMPTY 8, Shadowcaster/Truenamer 9, Druid/EMPTY 10, Eideloncer/Psion 11, EMPTY/EMPTY 12, Eideloncer/EMPTY 13, Fighter/Binder Or Shadowcaster 1/Druid 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Wilder 1/Shadowcaster 1/Eideloncer2//Eidelon1/psion3/sorcerr1/soulknife1/ranger 1/Truenamer 1/Binder 1 Lots of empty slots. Other notes BY multiclassing so much, you are going to have level 1 or 2 powers in a ton of classes, but you are going to have no high level powers or spells. Spell power scales exponentally, not linearly, and so you are really going to be a lot weaker than if you had taken druid 20//wizard 20 or something much simpler. You are only going to be relativly good at truenaming and psionics. A similar build that accomplishes what you want to do could be done with a simple Factotum20//psion 20 prestiged as you want. I would recomend the chameleon prestige class from races of destiny. |
| #6feraltempestasDec 15, 2008 18:55:07 | Alright, so it's too generalized. I don't understand what you mean by having the same class on both sides though; could you clairify? And as for the empty slots, are those ones of which violated the rules for gestalt, or ones that you think ought to be replaced with something else, perhaps levels of the other classes that Werent' edited out? As for psionics and the Truenaming, such had been my intent. This was supposed to be a generalized character more than a maximized one. And while I'd be weaker as I went up in levels, odds are that this character and the campaign that it's aimed at won't last much lonver than 10, though hope springs eternal. |
| #7thegodheadDec 15, 2008 18:58:08 | Gives you what is essentially this, That's not true. There are no 'sides' in gestalt. That's just a convenient way to arrange things. @OP: What do you want? The build you've proposed is an absolute nightmare. Tell me what abilities and role you'd like to have and I can work from there. Your current setup is just bad at everything. |
| #8feraltempestasDec 15, 2008 19:05:07 | XD Saddly, what I'm aiming to have is a character who has a hand in each available school of magic or similar powers, so long as I have the physical source-book. Currently, I'm aiming to combine; Arcane, Divine (druid...although maybe that's "Primal" now, and Vow of Poverty) Shadow (Shadowmagic, Tome of Magic) Psionics (expanded psionics) Ghost (ghostwalk campaign option) Otherworldly (Binder, Tome of Magic.) and a bit of martial (Ranger and Fighter.) So yes, I will be crappy in a fight :3, but I'll enjoy myself none the less. However, if you can think of a better way to mix and match these, I'd appreciate it. (perhaps taking a range of mixed prestige classes after I've gotten one of each? Cerebramancer, Mystic Thurge, Anima Mage, Shadowmancer, that sorta thing?) |
| #9jenosDec 15, 2008 19:28:32 | The problem with your build is that you honestly don't do anything. In battle you'll sit around and fail at truenaming anything with insane DC's relative to your skill, your spells will do very little if they even manage to break sr(And with your pathetic CL, they probably won't) and frankly, while you'll be able to cast plenty of magic missles your opponents won't even feel a tickle when they hit for a whopping 5 damage at level 13. What you're doing is that you're adding your druid, shadowcaster, truenamer, and sorc levels together to get some sort of caster level, which you can't. I think thats what you're failing to get - Wizard and Sorc are two DIFFERENT classes, with two different spell progressions. At level 13, you have access to: Preparded level 1 arcane spells at caster level 1, spontaneous level 1 arcane spells with caster level 1, capability to cast as a 3rd level psion, maifest as a 2nd level wilder, a CL of 4 with divine druidic magic, etc. Note I'm not adding in eidolomancer stuff in here, but it doesn't make it much more effective. The real question is: Why Sorc? Why wiz? What does adding in the ability to do minimal arcane effects do for your character? Having the ability to cast level 1 arcane spells does not make your character more versitile if it means giving up potentially a new level of divine spells. |
| #10feraltempestasDec 15, 2008 20:05:24 | The wizard and Sorcerer levels are to add a bit more versatility at first. The entry-level shadowcaster has a reletively small repetoir of spells available to them, even if it is balanced by a D6 HD and the other abilities gained (limited phisiological needs and Darkvision). However, one of the varient rules of the Shadowcaster is that when one takes a level in that class, they can also saccrifice a level of an arcane casting class in order to gain a second shadowcaster level. By taking the arcane classes, I have some nifty tricks available at first, and once I've taken a couple more levels of Shadowcaster, I'll have burned them off, gotten a higher hit-die, and have enough spells and enough of a caster level for them to be at least Somewhat viable. Now here comes the admission of ignorance; What page and book states that effective caster level doesn't stack with other classes? ( I suspect that it's in the PHB if at all, in the multi-classing section, but I've yet to find it.) That said, the CL that I'd been basing on had been the total of; Druid (5) Shadowcaster (3, not including sacrificed wizard and sourcerer levels) Wizard (1) Sorcerer (1) Eideloncer (3) Total 13. At lvl 13. The Eideloncer is another Ghostwalk class, of which is ghost-equivilent 'caster. It gains a level of spell-casting as if from the origional class that it had been multi-classed into. Again, it's a base-class, but it doesn't put a numerical limit as to it effecting only one class, so I'd be applying it to all of them. Even if the other classes don't stack, I can still put up a CL8 druid, and CL 8 Shadowcaster. This, mixed with Natural spell feat for the shape-shifting druid, ought to make up for at least some of the spell deficiencies. Then I add in the Eidelon's incorporeality (Eidelon, not Eideloncer) and ghost flight to make myself into a bear that flies and throws lightning and darkness at will. (even if this doesn't work out, I'm going to enjoy that visualization). As for the psion/wilder levels, the Power Point reserve Does stack between the two. The Manifestor level, however, does not, so I'll likely wind up taking a few more levels as one or the other to maximize that, but since I'll have so few of them, Wilder seems the better choice for the Wild Surge option, which gives a manifested power a higher level DC and effect. |
| #11reisDec 15, 2008 20:51:22 | Now here comes the admission of ignorance; What page and book states that effective caster level doesn't stack with other classes? ( I suspect that it's in the PHB if at all, in the multi-classing section, but I've yet to find it.) the core rules, under "magic overview" in the SRD or PHB 3.5 page 171 Caster Level also under the multiclassing section in the SRD or PHB page 59 Spells |
| #12khiftDec 15, 2008 21:22:44 | Think about it like this, FeralTempestas: Your build, disregarding the potential illegality of it with the gestalt rules, has these attributes: You cast spells as a 5th level Druid. You cast mysteries as a 3rd level Shadowcaster. You cast spells as a 3rd level Eidoloncer. You have two bonus ghost feats. You have two bonus combat feats. You manifest powers as a 2nd level Psion. You manifest powers as a 2nd level Wilder. You utter utterances as a 1st level Truenamer. You bind vestiges as a 1st level Binder. You cast spells as a 1st level Wizard. You cast spells as a 1st level Sorcerer. You have a BAB of +9. None of these abilities stack beyond the power point pool shared between the Psion and the Wilder. Therefore, at 13th level, your allies and opponents will be throwing around game-changing 7th level spells while the best you can come up with is a puny 3rd level druid spell. You have alot of different aspects to you character, but none of those aspects are a threat to your enemies. It's like you have a character who can attack with a needle, a shoe, an umbrella, a feather duster, a butter dish, and a spatula. Yes, that character has many methods of attack -- but they all suck. No matter which method he chooses he is guaranteed to fail. The single most precious resource a character has is his standard action. Characters that can use their standard action to achieve great effects are excellent and powerful characters. You can do this by casting high level spells or making multiple attacks at a high bonus to hit and to damage. But your character cannot use his standard action to achieve any level appropriate effect. The best you can muster is a 3rd level druid spell, which is excellent, at level five, but useless at level thirteen. Characters that can do everything are certainly possible and powerful, especially in gestalt, but they have to be built right with a careful mix of powerful classes and prestige classes like Factotum and Chameleon. This, however, is a character that cannot do anything, the exact opposite of what you are aiming for. |
| #13jenosDec 15, 2008 21:29:02 | The wizard and Sorcerer levels are to add a bit more versatility at first. The entry-level shadowcaster has a reletively small repetoir of spells available to them, even if it is balanced by a D6 HD and the other abilities gained (limited phisiological needs and Darkvision). However, one of the varient rules of the Shadowcaster is that when one takes a level in that class, they can also saccrifice a level of an arcane casting class in order to gain a second shadowcaster level. By taking the arcane classes, I have some nifty tricks available at first, and once I've taken a couple more levels of Shadowcaster, I'll have burned them off, gotten a higher hit-die, and have enough spells and enough of a caster level for them to be at least Somewhat viable. Going back and looking at the eidoloncer is states that they gain a spellcasting level, not all. While it doesn't specifically say that one must choose if they had multiple, its pretty clear that it functions that way because of the language used. If your DM does state that it functions as all, however, that brings a lot more to the table. However, its "suggested" in UA to ban any such classes that advance multiple aspects of a character, so it would be up to your DM to allow such a class. The issue with shadowcasting in general is that it sucks compared to regular magic. Its just plain weak. That being said, I understand fully if you want to play it(its a lot cooler flavorwise, imo). However, the issue again is as I asked previously: Why Sorceror or Wizard? Theres no point to go SC 1->SC 1/Wiz 1->SC 3. All you are doing is making your second level weaker than it needs to be(You can apply that comparison no matter what level). The nature of spellcasting makes it so losing a caster level for whatever reason hurts, a lot. Shadowcasting is similarly affected. If you intend to burn off arcane caster levels for shadowcasting levels, don't even bother taking the arcane levels in the first place - its going to make you weaker. In the end, though, the real problem is that you want to sacrifice a lot of character potential for having a wide breadth of abilities. The issue with your character is that it sacrifices too much power for weak breadth. You are ultimately bound by the number of spells you can cast in an encounter. Having 50 spells per day is fine and dandy, but its irrelevant if you can only cast 8 spells in an encounter and have 4 encounters. What you want then is to make sure all those spells are worthwhile, and the character you're making is not going to have that. The nature of gesalt makes a character have far more stamina than the usual character. When going shadowcaster, going psion on the other side will give you enough stamina to not need the additional low level spellcasting of a wizard(Who honestly has crap spells at level 1...1 level 1 spell per day). Also, for druid, if you intend to go in it, do not multiclass out of it into a mediocre class like eidolamoncer. You do not gain wildshape uses/wildshape size changes, meaning even with 8th level spellcasting you're limited to small->large creatures 1/day for 5 hours. Right now you're trying to have 5 spellcasting aspects(Truenaming, Shadowcasting, Druid, Psionic, Arcane). I highly suggest only sticking to 2 of them. By having 2 of them you will retain enough abilities to always have something to do in a fight, but some of the abilities will be powerful enough relative to the CR of encounters you're facing. Look at your current character. A druid 13/shadowcaster 13 will have just as many overall abilities per day - but instead of capping out at level 8 abilities, he'll have access to level 13 abilities, making that many more actions he does far more effective than your current character. But all that said, you still haven't really answered what you want your character to do. Do you want him to simply have versitility, or do you want him to literally be able to use all 6 different types of "Magic"(Truenaming, Arcane, Divine, Binding, Shadowcasting, Psionic)? Even with gesalt, a character that has all 6 isn't going to be good, but you do what you want. Edit: Read Khift's post, he said what I wanted to say a lot more concisely. |
| #14feraltempestasDec 15, 2008 23:54:22 | Mkay, so as far as game-mechanics go, I'm doomed, if what you've said is the only side of it. However, I planned to burn the arcane for the purpose of adding shadowcaster levels, meaning that I'll have ECL 5 in that, which matches the druid's 5. Second, Aside from the bonus feats, I also have a new feat every 3rd level, with which I can add extra uses of wild-shape per day. The psionic abilities are going to be geared toward low-level NPC's and the like. It's more for the purpose of gathering information and putting unwitting spies in place, so that rather than having to fight to do something, I can just start a riot and sneak carefully in the chaos. The BAB will be at 11, due to the Exalted Strike bonuses of the Vow of Poverty, which shouldn't be half-bad for a 'caster. The Eidoloncer wording implies, but it doesn't say for certain. If the DM decides to push for the implication, then I'll probably switch it to Mystic Theurge with the Shadowcaster as the arcane base and the Druid for the divine. The Psion/Wilder split is looking more and more like a bit too much of a hassle, and so I'll probably switch that to Psion 4 (total) instead. The binder level allows me to decide what sort of place in combat I'll take on a given day, such as if a player is absent or if I get fed up with one place or another. However, this is likely to be something like the psion levels; intended for non-combative situations. Mainly, I'll be summoning and binding Ronov, for the Far Hand and Improved Unarmed Strike, and Naberius for the skills and disguise self after I've burned the arcane 'caster levels. One does not need a Miracle to change the world. Anyhow, With those in mind, the 13th level mix would be Shadow-caster 5 (eidoloncer adjusted CL8) Druid 5 (Eidoloncer adjusted CL8) Binder 1 Truenamer 1 Psion 4 Eidoloncer 3 Eidelon 2 SoulKnife 1 Ranger 1 Then, Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty as starting and human feats. Incorporeal Form and Ghost Glide from Eidelon levels. Several exalted feats, (Golden Ice, Sactify weapon, and others) Natural Spell and at least one Extra Wild Shape. And a BAB of +15. ....(this is after having checked something in Expanded Psionics). It seems the two-wepon feature of the Soulknife isn't gained until 5th level, so I'll be switching the ranger level with a sixth level of druid. So, BaB +16, Shadowcaster 5 (8) Druid 6 (9) Psion 4 Eidoloncer 3 Eidolon 2 Fighter 2 SoulKnife 1 Binder 1 Truenamer 1 |
| #15jenosDec 16, 2008 5:52:37 | The main reason I say eidolomancer doesn't give to a multiple class is because it specificlaly says you turn it back into the class you were advancing if you go back to life. If you say it functions like you do, then by gaining several levels in eidolomancer then having a life epiphany, you would then gain 2*eidilomancer levels, which honestly doesn't seem to work. If your DM says it functions like that, by all means go ahead and do it, however as I said before in gesalt you are not supposed to be able to take such classes in the first place. Second off, theres a reason no one goes into mystic theurge without having a way to cheese its requirements or using something like ur-priest. It is BAD to lose caster levels for levelling 2 different types of magic at once. A wizard 9 is better in 95% of scenarios than a wiz 3/druid 3/mt 3, because having 2 different 3rd level spells is worse than having 5th level spells. Caster levels are exceedingly valuable, you only want to drop them if the gains are worth it, and in your build they aren't. Also - don't even bother taking the arcane levels. Increasing a level of shadowcaster is by far the superior way to go over burning an arcane level. That variant is intended for characters who already have arcane levels and want to become a shadowcaster, not for people starting out as a shadowcaster from the beginning. You're needleslly weakening yourself every time you take that arcane level for no point, though its ireelevant in the final build. In any case, your BAB is not +15. You don't take both the BAB when you take a gesalt level, simply the higher increase. I'm seeing a BAB of +10 in your original build, however you have changed it slightly. Regardless, its impossible for you to exceed +13 as you never gain more than 1 per level. Also, your build is still weak. Casting as a level 8 chaarcter at level 13 is BAD. Those 4th level spells won't do much against CR 13s. Wildshaping will also be weak - you will be able to wildshape into small-large creatures of up to 6 HD at level 13...woohoo? You're applying a lot of effects which are tied into class level as if they're tied into character level, and thinking your character is better because of it. Anyway, I still don't understand why you have truenamer, soulknife, binder, etc in your build. 1 level dips in soulknife and truenamer are fairly useless. Truenamer especially, as you're not going to feasibly keep up with the CR of monsters, making that level and its abilities useless. Flavor is well and good, but you're not going to be able to roll well on any meaningful truename checks to the point where that level is dead weight. Soulknife as well - you're primarily a caster, why do you even need the soulknife levels? Its cool, but you won't be able to do much with the SK levels, a +0 mindblade isn't going to hurt foes at all(Hell, you can't even pierce DR/Magic) at higher levels. All you're doing is getting a shortsword summonable at will, not all that great. Binder isn't a terrible dip class, except you're not making any particular use of the binder level. Binder dips are intended when you have 1 specific vestige to bind(I.e Naberius for hellfire warlocks). For you, its fairly pointless. Still don't get the whole psion aspect, you're not going to do much even socially with only 4 levels. You will have 4 2nd level powers and 17+bonus pp per day, fairly few spells. And all for what? You lose access to 6th and 7th level druid spells as a result. Not worth it at all. I'm not trying to be overly harsh here, but you can't dabble in all the different "magics" without producing an overall weak character. I understand you want this character to have flavor, but all these dips are adding very little to your character's versitility and hampering his overall power significantly. |
| #16KruskDec 16, 2008 8:32:09 | Alright, so it's too generalized. I don't understand what you mean by having the same class on both sides though; could you clairify? Apparently it is a common change on the gestalt rules to allow the way you have been doing it, but how I read the rules ... You take level 1 druid// 1 wizard You take level 1 fighter // 1 druid for an ECL 2 character. This grants you all of the abilities of a first level druid, twice. As having powers from the same source does not stack in dnd you end up with one levels worth of the druids powers. In order to take druid 2, you need the prereq of druid 1, you need to meet the prereqs of all your classes on each side in order to take them. EX you can't take a class asking for sneak attack on the right side of rogue 2/fighter 2. The left side has sneak attack, and so you have to take that prestige on the left side. Additionally prestige classes such as mystic theuruge and similar advance two classes spells prestige classes are generally not allowed in gestalt. Mostly for the confusion they cause. If they are allowed it is suggested that they only add to one side. IE wizard 3/cleric 3/MT X//Fighter 6+X not wiz3/MT3/Cleric 6. Again i recomend the factotum 10/chameleon10//psion 20 and point out how it gives all the same versitility, but doesnt suck. |
| #17thegodheadDec 16, 2008 12:55:48 | Apparently it is a common change on the gestalt rules to allow the way you have been doing it, but how I read the rules ... This is 100% wrong. Ignore this. Again i recomend the factotum 10/chameleon10//psion 20 and point out how it gives all the same versitility, but doesnt suck. While suboptimal (two extra factotum levels more than you really need), this in on topic, productive, and legal. |
| #18jenosDec 16, 2008 13:26:17 | Have to agree with the factotum/chameleon/psion, plenty of options, with chameleon giving you different skills and psion giving you combat/mental abilities. However since you only go to 13, I'd say factotum 13 is better than Factotum 10/Chameleon 3. That being said, the biggest question still remains unanswered. What do you want your character to do? You've listed classes left and right, but what capabilities do you want your character to have? Does he need to be a shadowcaster, or are you only playing it because you have access to it? Do you want to actually be truenaming? If you give us an inkling of what you want to do, we can definitely build a character around it. |
| #19dragonsonDec 16, 2008 14:42:21 | To add... If memory serves (and it usually does), Shadowcaster levels do not count as spell-casting, arcane or divine levels. Shadowcasters use mysteries, not spells. Even if the mystery functions as, or duplicates a spell, it is not considered a spell. It's the exact same reason why Shadowcasters can't use arcane scrolls like dispel magic even if they know the mystery that duplicates the effect (forget the name... away from books), and the same is true the other way around. |
| #20tc_x0_lt_0xDec 16, 2008 15:03:38 | Have to agree with the factotum/chameleon/psion, plenty of options, with chameleon giving you different skills and psion giving you combat/mental abilities. However since you only go to 13, I'd say factotum 13 is better than Factotum 10/Chameleon 3. I also agree with Factotum 13/Psion 13. And to you Jenos, If I remeber correctly what he told me, his character worships a god whoms goal is to rule the world by being good at everything. While his build was 'trying' to emulate this, it did not, as can clearly be seen. And from reading the Eidoloncer, it says 'A' Spellcasting class, not 'ALL' Spellcasting classes. And again, it's wording in other places implies taking only one spellcasting class, and it would be very munkchin to warp the wording to allow this, as well as bad DMing (in my eyes) for a DM to allow this, even if it's weak or otherwise. |
| #21emyDec 16, 2008 21:52:28 | I dunno about Factotum 13. It gives you some minor benefits (and 1 level higher SLAs) over 11. Why not add in a couple of dip friendly classes? What about Factotum 11/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage 1//Psion 13? Ends up with: Extra feats and/or domain granted powers from cloistered cleric (knowledge devotion ahoy!) Ability to replace your saves with concentration checks (as a psion. Yeah. This is good.) Factotum 11 goodness (add INT to tons of things*, take more standard actions, bypass SR and DR**) Almost entirely SAD (this is a happy thing) 6+int skill points at every level Level 7 Psion powers (ML 13) Level 5 Sorcerer/Wizard Spells as SLA (CL 11) Level 4 Swordsage manevers (IL 7) plus an always-on level 1 stance Level 1 Cleric spells (CL 1) (actually somewhat useful, but not offensively. able to activate wands of lesser vigor for out of combat healing 100% of the time, with the oracle domain can cast identify without material components) * Including INITIATIVE :D ** Presumably, this also includes Power Resistance if transparency is in effect |
| #22tc_x0_lt_0xDec 16, 2008 23:25:41 | Wait, is it 11 or 13 when a Factotum gets the extra action ability? |
| #23emyDec 16, 2008 23:42:11 | Wait, is it 11 or 13 when a Factotum gets the extra action ability? It's 8. (11 is the "ignore DR and SR" ability) |
| #24tc_x0_lt_0xDec 17, 2008 0:11:13 | It's 8. [Checks Dungeonscape] O right. Yeah, then I too suggest level 11. |
| #25feraltempestasDec 17, 2008 0:19:56 | XD TC_XO__LT_0X was pretty close in terms of story. The character is an NPC Binder from another campaign who sought out an old abandoned city with hopes of finding an as-yet unknown vestige. He found it, but also found that it wasn't so subtle in influence as the norms like Leraje or Dantillion. Said vestige was that of a mortal who set about conquering the world by holding enough power in any style or method of magic to effectively counter or over-power another user who specialized in the one. On the one hand, it would require an ECL 80+ character to match what I had in mind for him. The reason for the miss-matched mix of classes is that he's slowly pushing more of his own psyche and spirit into the Binder's body, and likewise the spells and such are accumulating, but slowly and in a rather indecisive manner. I think at this point I've accepted that there's no build that I understand well enough to make this character viable at it's ECL, and I appologize for any trouble that I've caused because of it :3. I'm also grateful for the insight you've all provided, as it's lead me to at least make something minimally useable. Why not Factotem/Chamelion/Psion? Because I don't have the books they're from, 'least so far as I know. (Unless TC_XO__LT_0X sends/sent them too me >.>; and I've yet to notice.) Even so, I don't like pirating the stuff, and I don't have any of the "Complete-such-and-such" series, prefering the more obscure characters and variant classes :3.. What about Factotum 11/Cloistered Cleric 1/Swordsage 1//Psion 13? Again, same lack of book for Factotum, Cloistered Cleric, and I have yet to figure out the maneuver system. And Dragonson, you're right, Shadowcaster levels do not count as an arcane caster levels. If any of you are bored enough to do so, feel free to free me from my ignorance XD. |
| #26jenosDec 17, 2008 1:21:25 | Swordsage is from Tome of Battle, Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana(Available on the SRD) Factotum is from Dungeonscape which it seems TC_XO_LT_0X has access to at the least. Manuevars are fairly simple to get the hang of, once you get used to them. They're usable once per encounter, and then you need to "recharge" them to use them again. For swordsage, that is a full-round action concentration, other classes recharge differently(Warblade smacks things to recharge, crusader gets them back literally randomly). While it is daunting to try and determine what are the best stances/moves to get, its nothing different than poring over a spell/power list to figure out the best abilities. The problem is your build is still very suboptimal, with a max caster level of 9 in druid and everything else falling below it. However it seems that this character should have binder be much more important than any other class, yet you only take a single level of it. If I were you, I would ask your DM to see if you can get some sort of new vestige written up for this, which gives you more abilities as you gain binder levels. Simply make yourself a Binder 13/Psion 13, and use this house ruled vestige to give you access to other spells/abilities. It is dependant on your DM doing this, but you get the same flavor without having an incredibly useless character. It just seems that a vestige that could be so powerful shouldn't even be able to be called by a level 1 binder - its the whole premise behind your character but you don't take a binder level until a few levels into your build, and its only a single level. You can still roleplay the forced intrusion of the spirit without having an incredibly poorly optimized character. Going Factotum/Psion will allow you to use abilities from a multitude of classes while not being terrible(In fact, Factotum is a very powerful class in that it is a true jack of all trades). It actually makes sense - the vestige forces itself onto the player(Who was originally a psion) and he gains both arcane and divine magic(Through factotums abilities) in addition to a host of skills - the vestige is making the character more versitile by giving him lots of abilities. Thats just one potental RP aspect you could take. You could do a 3rd option, Binder 1/Factotum 10/Swordsage 1/Cloistered Cleric 1 // Psion 13. Start out with the binder levels, and RP the factotum levels as the forced intrusion by the spirit. Not incredibly optimized, but leaps and bounds better than your previous build. |
| #27EndarireDec 17, 2008 1:44:07 | For my first epic character, on a whim, I considered trying to take 1 level of every base class I could. I'm glad I stopped myself before then. If you went through with your original plan, you should have expected to lose to a well-built ECL7-9 wizard with the appropriate wealth by level. In gestalt, you must be viable in and out of combat. You could be a Druid20//Cleric20 and fare much better than your original build. I highly recommend NG Human Druid9/Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian1/Contemplative1/Sacred Exorcist1/Druid+8//Martial Conjurer3/Master Conjurer2/Incantatrix5/Martial Conjurer+2/Incantatrix+5/Archmage2 (Mastery of Shaping and Spell Power)/Fatespinner3. You need INT, WIS, and CON. Focus on INT or WIS depending which spell list you prefer. I recommend wizard since it has more DC-dependent spells, and more INT means more skill points! You can wild shape into monstrous beasties and pounce regardless of form. You can sneak, hear, and see well regardless of form. You have Abrupt Jaunt for emergencies. You have celerity. You have more metamagic than you're likely to need. You have Persistent wraithstrike. Rip your DM's game a new one. Ahem. |
| #28KruskDec 17, 2008 12:45:45 | This is 100% wrong. Ignore this. Can you please explain which parts are 100% wrong, and how I have misread what I did? |
| #29thegodheadDec 17, 2008 14:00:20 | Can you please explain which parts are 100% wrong, and how I have misread what I did? Because there are not 'sides' in gestalt. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm Ctr + F on 'side' yields the only use of the word as: 'As a side benefit' You're adding rules where there are none. Furthermore: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm "Level "Character level" is a character’s total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained. "Class level" is a character’s level in a particular class. For a character whose levels are all in the same class, character level and class level are the same. " Stop making **** up. |
| #30jenosDec 17, 2008 14:06:28 | I think he's reffering to the concept of "sides" in gesalt. No where in UA does it mention anything of sides(Afaik), and the concept of sides has been something added by CO'rs in order to make dealing with gesalt builds easier to read/understand. The example of Fighter 1/Druid 1 || Druid 1/Fighter 1 is the same as a level 2 fighter | level 2 druid, but people tend to think its a level 1 druid level 1 fighter | level 1 druid level 1 fighter, which is just wrong(And seeing as you can't take such a class distribution, people say that such a build is invalid). The point(as I see it) is that the barrier is simply something we introduce in order to make reading the builds easier. Druid 1 | Fighter 1 ====== Druid 1 | Fighter 1 Druid 2 | Fighter 2 ====== Druid 2 | Fighter 2 Fighter 3 | Druid 3 ====== Druid 3 | Fighter 3 All thats done is the third level has been reversed for the reader, there is no difference at all in the two builds. That msiconception starts getting added in when people start to view gesalt as the conglomerate of two different builds, stuck together, but that isn't the case. A gesalt character has multiple levels at the same time - if you meet the requirements for a class on one "side" you meet it on the other "side", you're still the same exact character no matter which angle you view the character from. |
| #31thegodheadDec 17, 2008 16:30:11 | I think he's reffering to the concept of "sides" in gesalt. No where in UA does it mention anything of sides(Afaik), and the concept of sides has been something added by CO'rs in order to make dealing with gesalt builds easier to read/understand. Dem's pretty much how it works. Gets it now, Krusk? |
| #32KruskDec 17, 2008 18:55:13 | Thanks Jenos, that is a good way of explaining it. You did have basically how I thought it worked down (and how we had been playing it for years). |
| #33emyDec 17, 2008 20:15:13 | (cut for length) If you're planning on using Factotum 10, I don't see a reason not to just do Factotum 8 instead. It's pretty much for the same reason that I suggested 11 after 13 was posted. Note that the level 11 ability really only matters for a //Psion if your DM is willing to let it bypass Power Resistance as well. I see the break points of the Factotum class as 1, 3, 8, 11, and 19. If you can borrow Dungeonscape from a friend or something, you should. (Looks like you can get it online for about 7bux plus shipping, as well. Much cheaper than when it came out, and Factotums are really fun) Factotum 8 option (assuming most all books are available): Factotum 8/Mindbender* 1/Binder 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Lion Totem Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy) 1/Swordsage 1//Psion 13 No Factotum. Fewer Books. No Dipping. Final Destination: Rogue 5/Chameleon 8//Psion 13 * TAKE MINDSIGHT :D I'm not entirely sure the Factotum entry for Mindbender works. You can cast a Charm Person SLA at CL8, but I'm not sure your SLA caster level counts as "... or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th". Still, it seems pretty reasonable. If not, put the mindbender at the end, in place of a psion level, using the straightforward Psionic mindbender adaptation presented in the Adaptation section. |
| #34feraltempestasDec 18, 2008 19:05:05 | Well then, Neutral Good we go then XD. Thank you Emy. However, what book is the Mindbender from? |
| #35jenosDec 18, 2008 19:07:12 | Mindbender is from CA, however one of the requirements is a nongood alignment, so you can't take it if you want to take exalted feats. |
| #36emyDec 18, 2008 22:21:37 | Well, if you have your heart set on Exalted feats, don't go with Mindbender. The real benefit of Mindbender 1 is that it grants 100' range Telepathy, which gets you the prerequisite for Mindsight (Lords of Madness, page 126). It is both a good and flavorful option for a Telepath though, especially since you said in the original post you were interested in that plus "focusing on charming and a bit of communication". The Exalted feat options are good, but not that good; without Wildshaping, I don't really see a use for them. You first said true neutral, so I was shooting for that. If not, swapping that level of Mindbender for a normal Psion level. All in all, it depends on what sort of character you'd like to play. Good luck. |
| #37thegodheadDec 18, 2008 23:33:13 | Nymph's kiss is pretty damn good. |